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This BBC Podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Influences and content creators have been making headlines at the US Open, but how important are they to tennis? Find out by searching for more than a school wherever you get your BBC podcasts. Get more with BBC Podcasts wherever you listen. Be the first to listen to your favourite shows, like Evil Genius, Good Bad Billionaire and Your Dead To Me, with a subscription to BBC Podcasts Premium on Apple Podcasts. You can also enjoy a range of our podcasts ad-free with an Amazon Music subscription. Welcome to the Monday Night Club at Chris Sussan. Rory Smith, it can be bothered this week, it can be bothered last week, and Andros Townsend are with us, so it's time to play our regular game on a Monday night when Andros is on, which is where in the world is Andros? Where are you now? I'm back in Thailand for another season, so back home. But with a different club. Yeah, the club last season finished rock bottom, so yeah, I've jumped shit as I do. Right. So you've got a fan. And joined another club in the top flight whilst your former team have been relegated. Yeah, why not? Roughly only once. And is that in the same sort of area as where your last club was? Or if you had to- No, it's about six hours south by its coastal, it's on the beach, it's amazing, it's lovely. Okay, and so your new club, because I have done a little bit of research, so your new club is PT Prachuap, is that right? That's perfect, that's it, that's it, yeah. Yeah, I'm finished sick the last season, but no, that will be in a relegation squad this year. Has- my research hasn't extended to whether the season has started yet, has it? No, I begin of September, 5th of September, if we start. All right, how's Preseason, Don? Oh, it's been tough, because there's no sports science out in Thailand, it's absolutely brutal. Yeah, it's brutal. And their nickname is the killer wasps. That's right, I don't know, I don't know why, I don't know how, but yeah, killer wasps. And there's a killer wasp on their badge? Yes, you say so. You have more than me. Have you not? Well, as a sense, you might want me to stop asking you about your career in Thailand, so I will do that. How are you, Rory? Thank you for being bothered. I'm very well, the season hasn't started last week, yeah. It was the big season, but a preview show. No, I don't, the transfer windows still open, none of these teams are ready. There's, there wasn't anything to say that will hold, hold water for weeks, months and a half. Why aren't they ready? That's a big question we're going to ask, you don't have to answer it yet, because there are lots of people going to come on from, from fitness and recruitment to tell us why, why everybody isn't ready, because they should be ready, shouldn't they, Chris? They should be really just going back. How do you know it was a killer wasp on the badge? It might have just been a wasp, but you're choosing to have your own filing. No, I'm just saying, yeah, I'm just saying, how do you, how do you know that that's an assumption? Well, I tell you why, because on the badge that I'm looking at, it's luminous orange, and that strikes me as a particularly dangerous type of wasp. It's a bad sign, isn't it? You don't want a luminous orange? No, I don't want a luminous orange. That sounds like it has all sorts of tricks of this wing. Yeah, yeah, right. What's going on at Ashton Villa, Chris? Oh, I mean, yeah, I mean, they are, they are in a tricky position. My biggest take on what came out yesterday was the Oli Watkins situation. I mean, we know they've lost players, I think, with Watkins and Rodgers and Marlin, I think it's basically called 30 goals last season, and that was more than half the goals. Starting Emmy Buen Deer, who's a good player, Emmy Buen Deer, but I've seen enough of them over the years. He's not the center forward. I mean, they shot themselves in the foot, some of the goals, which they conceded were, you know, for any other football fan, but pretty comical that the mats and throwing the ball back to Torres, and then the, you know, the sort of air and pass, and what have you, that, I mean, that's the worst possible start. But who do I envy that, you know, he's a powerful figure at the club, and there is, there will be trust in him again, that he will be able to turn things around and recruit. But when you look at the caliber of players, which they've lost, maybe this is a season where it sort of bites them in the back side. If Andross, you had been the player who was the subject of Unai Emery's quotes, which on match the day was follows. The question is for him, you can call him and try to get his answer. The players here wanted to play. We had two strikers with a small injury. The question on Watkins is for him. I mean, that has put all of the eggs into Watkins basket. If you were that player, you would want to have your say, wouldn't you? Because the implications are quite clear from Emery there. Yes, but I think you've got to look at the player situation as well. He's 30. He's pushing on in age. He potentially has a huge offer from Saudi Arabia, which would be amazing for himself and his family. So I think you can understand, read between the lines. You can understand from the player's point of view why he might actually want to pursue this offer, but obviously it's not great that the manager sort of thrown him under the bus. He's done very well for Villa in the past. So yes, a bit of a messy situation to start the season for Villa again. Who's thrown who under the bus? Androsser. I mean, it seems to me that a lot of Villa fans will feel that Oli Watkins has thrown his manager under the bus. For Runei Emery to come out publicly and say that he obviously feels let down, really, really, really let down. So while the player isn't title to do whatever he pleases and can act in any way which he seems possible, there'll be a lot of Villa fans who would say, you know, Oli Watkins has been brilliant for this club, but if he was fit to play when the club really needed him and they've lost Rodgers, they've lost Conses, they've lost Dean, you know, they needed him in that moment and, you know, playing with a makeshift striker. That's not a good look for Oli Watkins. It isn't on a whole, but do you not think from the players point of view from Oli Watkins sitting at home thinking what he's done for the club, the relationship he has with the manager? Do you not think he's thinking, wow, the manager's actually gone in public and thrown me under the bus here? He's under contract. If he's fit, he should play, he chose not to play. Who and I, you know, would have felt long and hard? That's the assumption. The assumption is he doing what's not. Well, yeah, I understand what you're saying, but who and I, to come out as strongly as he did? Yes. I mean, you know, that doesn't look good on Oli Watkins. And I'm surprised today that it hasn't been addressed, whether that's through him or through an agent or whatever, whether it was him, and ultimately it was, it seems to be Oli Watkins decision, but, you know, maybe he's had bad advice, but I think it's a really bad look for him. I know Rory wants to come in, but quite frankly, it wasn't here last week, so he's going to have to wait. I just want to ask Andrew, and we talk about this a lot, and you may have been seen this at clubs that you were at. Do you think there may be a sense with Oli Watkins? I know we're talking about. It's a great offer from Saudi and the other financially. I've going, well, everybody else has gone. I don't want to be hanging around here. Probably, probably in a way, but I think it's more his age and the opportunity he's got. Will he get that opportunity again? And I think he feels that if I let this offer go, I may not, it may not come again. So it's probably a bit of both. Everyone's leaving at the same time. He has a nice offer. Yeah, I think it's all rolled into one, and it's all come to a head for Austin Villa and Oli Watkins. But he's playing in the best league in the world. No, I'm not, I'm not disputing that. I'm not siding with him for one reason. I'm trying to get in his head and see what he's thinking. He's in the best league in the world. He's just come off a World Cup. He's playing the Champions League, but you don't know what players' motivations are in this. We know we know what he's thinking. If he wants to go to Saudi, we know it is thinking. Yeah, but can you play someone for that? But he's into people, you know, don't necessarily see it this way, but he's entitled to think like that. Like, I don't know what Oli Watkins background is. I don't know what his like family. I'm surprised. I'm surprised at you saying this. What do you mean? No, you don't. I mean, look, Oli Watkins already has more money than most people will ever see in several generations of their family. That he is an extraordinarily rich man by anyone's standard. But I don't know. I'm not in a position to judge him if he feels that he can go to Saudi Arabia at 30, which seems kind of on the border. I guess if he was 33, I think probably not want to be criticising him. If he was 28, I think there would be no question. It would feel like he was leaving too soon. But if he was 22, I mean, John, John's your answer is fascinating. Yeah, he's in about 12 clubs since then. I mean, he's and I would guess that he knows less about each of them than Andros does. I think the John Juran thing is, I don't know, in detail. I think that's probably agent-driven. That would be my guess for John Juran. But Oli Watkins has a right to think. I need to take this offer because it's the right thing to do for my family. It's not necessarily the decision I'd made, but I think he's entitled to that logic. My sense with this one I've got to admit is it's a bit of a shame. People can't be a little bit more calm. And I mean, the people within the club, not the fans, like a little bit more calm and mature about it. I mean, we don't know if Watkins refused to play as he feels the club have kind of messed him around or something, or whether he refused to play or didn't want to play as he didn't want to get injured, which would jeopardise the move. If it's the latter, I think that's, it feels like the sort of thing that an adult conversation can probably solve to be perfectly honest. It seems an unnecessarily messy way for him to leave a club to which he has been an excellent servant. So you saying, who and I have regott it wrong? It depends, like if Watkins has thrown his toys out the pram and been unreasonable, then no, but if it's just that he's saying, look, I'm about to move. We're close to kind of sealing this deal where the clubs are aligned and his kind of his contract sorted. I don't want to risk that by playing it potentially getting an injury. I don't know to what extent he might feel that it's difficult to fully commit to the intensity of a Premier League game if you're worried about, I don't want to get injured, it'll cost me £80 million or whatever. Then I think that is not and that's not a ridiculous stance for Watkins to take. I think we treat footballers, this is new season, new me, but I think we expect them to behave too often in ways that normal people don't. And if you had a sort of life changing offer, even if your life was already pretty nice, then you probably wouldn't want to jeopardise it. I think that's not a ridiculous thing for Watkins to behave. I'm going to it's also a very US sport thing that particularly particularly NFL have like withholding your services if you think you may be getting a big move or a big deal is down, it's coming down the tracks and then they miss training and they get fine per day when they miss training and this and the other, but they know that they're fit and healthy and they'll be a big contract coming with a new team. Yeah, and it makes sense. I think I actually think we probably see that a little bit more than we realise we do in football, to be honest. Let's bring Jacob, Tanswell, Lincolver's Villa for the Athletic. Do you have any latest on Ole Watkins, Jacob? Yeah, I think when it all finishes, I do think he'll get his move and it just feels a bit unedifying, really. And I think what we're seeing now is actually the result of just a summer of change. I think that night in Istanbul was the end of the first year. I think a lot of those long standing players actually thought we've probably done what we can now at this club. We're approaching our 30s. Some of them are already in their 30s. They've got chavisly qualification again. They won your apelig. They know that this summer they're going to be here with financial regulations and limitations again. This is probably the time to leave. And Villa were prepared for a broad just to leave as we concert. Tillaments are slightly different with the release clause, but they felt that Ole Watkins was the guy that could bridge the risk almost. They felt that he could be the guy who would like John McGinn who could help this new, hopefully exciting young talent, Johan Manza, and be coming in and see on Suzuki coming in and really help them. And the fact that they've offered him a new contract till 2030. He'll be 34 in that time. It's a lucrative contract. It's not quite salary money, but it is certainly good money for a player and a strike of his age. And he's a player that, let's be honest, he did go through a lot of lows last season as well. He finished very high. But it just feels right now with Ole Watkins. That is a very messy situation and it probably end up with him leaving and Villa quickly seeking his replacement. So, when the apelig final ended, maybe not immediately, did they already have the plan that this is what they were going to do? Or have they have they been caught in some ways in a perfect storm? Because I was just going through the players that they've sold this summer. And there are kind of differing reasons for each one going, but a bit like, as I said to Andros, I wonder whether there's then a domino effect and then it looks like they're having this massive reset summer, whereas actually each individual transfer has probably had separate reasons for why it's happened. Yeah, I think you speak to me around the club. They actually wanted this transitional period to start last season. Emory was very insistent that actually we've got one more year, one more crack before we've peaked almost to give it a good go to win at trophy. They knew they were in the Europa League that season and they decided partly because of financial limitations to keep that same core. And they weren't quite stale for large periods last year, but because of that experience, because of that muscle memory, they did go over the line. So, and because they kept that core group together, it meant that they had to transition even more acutely than they probably would have wanted to this summer. I think they felt like a lot of the players, okay, Rodgers, Contra side would stay. And that's why I think they're quite surprised with what walkings, because he's always been very, very professional. They love him there still, but what's been going on in last week, ever since he returned to from the World Cup, the same with everybody, but as a concert, there are three players that futures were deeply uncertain. I think it's has surprised them. And the fact that other players, keep players, responded to team have gone, they're even more entrenched in their opinion that he should have stayed. Jacob, obviously, at the moment, it's a mess with what's happening, but bigger picture wise, you're not thinking it's probably the right time for Asden Villa to sell Oli walkings. He's in his 30s now, obviously similar to Newcastle where they're all every year, they're under financial restraints, they have to sell before they can spend. Do you not think to recoup money, big money for a 30-year-old now is bigger picture. It's a good deal for Asden Villa as well. I think if you take away what's gone before, if you just look at that, I think it's a fantastic offer, right? They've rejected four offers from Al Halau, the latest 145 million, and I actually think that's more than what they get from any Premier League club given his age. And he is declining performance wise from two years ago, which is peak season, but because of what's happened, because essentially they are going through this transition period, they feel that actually whatever they get for him, his importance in this next six, 12 months is bigger than any fee they get for him. Of course, they're likely to pursue Nicholas Jackson, they've got other targets as well, but walkings brings things out sometimes, intangible off the field that they feel far outweighs out that price. Jacob, clearly, you know, Emery was frustrated yesterday, where does this whole situation leave him if these players aren't replaced adequately? And you keep talking about the financial side of it. How much will Villa have to spend? How much wiggle room have they got with the PSR? Right now, they say they're compliant, but this is the last year where they have to adhere to the UEFA settlement agreement that they're into, which means they can't lose more than 60 million, otherwise they could face sporting sanctions from UEFA next season. So they're having to be very watchful of that, but they feel like given the business they've done and they saw a lot of off-players, they're absolutely fine. And if you speak to him and I remember, he's very excited about this season, he feels like it's a new era of John McGinn, Matthew Casual, said it's supposed to be a new era and they did have to be generate, absolutely no question. He didn't look very excited yesterday. No, he's the meaning of the trade after the game, but if you look at his track record, he's fantastic and the best out of the existing players that he inherited, but if you look at his recruitment record, it's very patchy, so it's going to be, it's a big risk to change half your team, more than half your team, with a recruitment strategy that's proving more, proving more missed and hit. The financial thing is all down to these agreements with UEFA then, just to reiterate that, that's where the financial situation is for Villa, because people just keep going on about Villa's finances without actually explaining what the proper issue is, but that is it, is it? Yes, so when they register the Champions League squad, they've got to be positive balance. Essentially, the part in players, they have to sell players for more money than they buy players for, and then they've got to bring the squad across the ratio down to the wages to revenue, there has to be below 70 percent, if they can do that, which they think they can right now, they'll be fine. Okay, and then, did you say they weren't ready? Well, you saw yesterday, they were clearly not ready for this. Yeah, but behind the scenes weren't ready for players leaving. I think, like I said, they were fine with one or two leave, I think that was the plan, but they were, I think they're now surprised, but the fact that, because they're in Martinez, concert, and Watkins are all looking, or have left, or looking like they've left, they didn't expect this amount of change, Henry's even admitted it, they thought two might go through it, push, but this is despising the team, that's gone from the Fryberg final in May, it's huge change. Jacob, thank you very much for joining us, Jacob Tazel, the Astambilla correspondent for the Athletic. Overall, then, as we move this on, it follows on from their Rory. Are you surprised that so many teams say they aren't ready? In terms of recruitment, yeah, 100%, I think it's the defining, we said that my defining take away from the weekend was the number of teams that you saw, and you thought, well, you've got, you've got so much work left to do, and it's orders to 24th. Why have you left it this long? And I get that obviously the World Cup exhausted as all chapters, and the gap between the, the end of the World Cup and the start of the season was relatively short, but you did kind of know that, like that's been, it's been in the calendar for a while, and it's listening to Jacob actually, it's interesting that I think there's actually compounding effects where when teams, the transfer market often needs a trigger, and if lots of teams are kind of trapped in like a holding pattern, that trigger never comes, and so it gets the last week, and at some point, people start thinking, well, look, the last few days are going to go bananas anyway, so let's just wait for that and ride it out and see what we can pick it up. I think there's probably a lot of teams who are looking at the same players, which has given a lot of kind of ages. Has that not always happened? Yeah, it probably has, but it feels like everyone's waiting for what? I don't know. Sorry, I'm not taking it out on you, Rory. Yeah, I've got my spot. It just exacerbates me. There's a lot of teams who would say that, like Ashton Villa, they want to sell before they can buy, because you don't want to be kind of selling off players, just teams know that you are kind of desperate to raise money to make up for the money that you've already laid out. I wonder if the scale of the deals now as well, given how high prices are, that maybe changes how complicated they are to pull off, but it all seems very, I can't remember a market where it felt so, so kind of quaint the idea that you get players in for preseason. That used to be the thing that managers wanted, especially when they were new managers. Don't play as one to it as well, Andrews. Don't play as one to a full, and we saw so many times last season, players who didn't have full preseason with the clubs where they ended up, they're having real stinkers. Don't play as one to a full preseason. Yeah, 100%. I think that's the problem now where, like Jacob was saying, most clubs are not manager led in the transfers, whereas the owners or director of football, they don't really see it that way. They just want to get the best deal for their club, whereas the manager wants players in the door day one. Players want to have a full preseason under their belt. So, it's almost a weird situation where the guys making the decisions don't really understand that as much as obviously the coach and the players. The modern game, eh? Well, it's not, it's not, though, is it Chris? Because in amongst all of that, nicking Kingston email does mnc at bbc.co.uk. Hi, mnc. Speaking about fitness and recruitment, I'm really looking forward to Keith Andrews getting Brentford fully fit and up to speed. And, and that's, they are, they are a shining example of the modern game. And yet, they've got their recruitment done. They've probably, you know, as everybody keeps saying, got one of the players of the transfer window, if not the deal of the transfer window, they're fit. They're battered spurs. So, it, the point is it can be done. Are people just making excuses? Yes. Yeah, I think, I think very much so here. I think this has been a remarkable weekend. And neither should we be getting overly carried away with Brentford after, after one game and, and the signing of St. Gary, who, you know, who looks very good. I've got to say Statman Dave, Mark, who we know well, you know, was, was picking it up a, you know, a while ago and thinking one of the big boys just talking about him to Manchester United, I think. So fair play to, today, but yeah, he looked very good. I mean, I mean, they haven't done loads of recruitment, but the fact that they were, you know, organised, fit and ready, we, you know, we shouldn't really be sort of lauding that and applauding them. That should just be the norm is what you're, what you're getting at. It's, it's been, it's been a really odd weekend. I think the opening weekends of, of every Premier League season are odd, but I think it has been odd because of what a lot of the managers have had to say about where their team are right in the, in the stuff that you've touched on about their teams not being ready. How can you start the season at Premier League season? And not be ready physically. I don't get it. As well, Chris, I don't think Brentford's opponents spurs can have much excuse in that department because for once they finally got their business done early. A lot of their key players came in. You look down at their squad, not many of them participated in the World Cup or went deep in the World Cup. So I've watched a few of their pre-season games. They had a settled team. So they can't have many excuses in that department. We'll do fitness from eight o'clock. Spurs are another example. They've done loads of business, but they're still trying to buy a whole new forward line, which they haven't managed to do yet. Steve Walsh, former director of football at Leicester and Everton joins us now, evening Steve. Believe in you. Are you giving your experiences? Are you surprised at how many teams still appear to have a lot of work to do recruitment-wise with eight days of the transfer window left to go? Yes, I am surprised. You try to get your business done early in the transfer window, but obviously the guys are loaded to it. It's not always that simple. If you're a lower team, you're wondering, are you recruiting for the end of the season? Let's say you look at the teams that went down from the Premier League, who are they recruiting for? Are they recruiting for the championship? It's not being decided whether they're going to be in the Premier League or not. So that's a mitigating fighter. But yes, the most clubs that are organised and I'd like to say that I tried to get my business done early, so only when it came to wing goals. As many times I've told the player that if he doesn't sign the contract, I'm closing the doors, I'm going to close the lights, and we're going to believe in the training ground, so it's up to you and Kelly, where it's got to that stage at certain points. So it's not some of the players that are signed up for kind of five agents on one occasion. A very well-known player had five agents, so I had to go into the room to say, I'll speak to one of you, so he decide who's going to be the sportsman, bring him into the room, and then say to them, listen, I don't fancy you a player. The manager really wants, no, I've shown you the deal, that's it. If you want it, take it, if you don't, let's close up and we'll see you later. So it does get to that stage if you get that very late in the window. So I would say try and get your business done early, know who you want to get, use your analysis issue, algorithms and everything else that goes with it, but then make sure you've had people out to see them live. I think that's a crucial part of it. Just ask you what? Just ask you one on that, and then no, Andrews wants to come in. But just on Brentford, I appreciate you haven't worked at Brentford, but Brian and Boimo on a French podcast recently said, he chose Brentford ahead of other clubs. For this reason, he said, what shot me was the scouts that came to see me 28 times in the league, duh season. They put out my strengths, my weaknesses, how I could improve, everything. I met other clubs, but I thought to myself, Brentford really want me. They did a thorough study. And if I go back to your Leicester time, and I don't mean this in a disrespectful way, but do you think that clubs of Brentford or Leicester have to show that extra care and effort, rather than relying on, well, we're Manchester United, come and sign for us. Yes, I agree with fully with that. When Jimmy Violet signed for Leicester, I brought him up into the room where we did all our audio and video stuff. And I showed him why we wanted him. I showed him detailed information, but also detailed video footage of him doing what we wanted him to do. And that wasn't necessarily scoring goals. It was working hard, it was closing people down. And the one thing I said to you, if I was playing centre back against you, I wouldn't want to have the ball because I wouldn't know where you were, you were closing people down. And even if you didn't score goals, you know, you make them for other people because you saw quick and could put people under pressure. And we convinced him. I think at that time, so we're in for him. And I think a club like Peterborough as well, we're in for him. And they both wanted him to sign. I think the fact that Nigel Pearson was kind of his boy or hero, or she had the Wednesday back in the day, certainly played his pilot as well. But we showed him that we wanted him to, you know, we made him feel like he was going to be part of the furniture. Andros. Yeah, Steve, you mentioned that obviously you wanted to get the deal done as soon as possible. Obviously, we know Manage has the same. In your career, how much pressure did you have from owners and the guys with the money to wait for the right deal, as opposed to just paying over the odds to get them through the door July the 1st? Now, I wasn't swayed too much to be honest. I was pretty straight talking. And if they didn't want to come, that was fine as well. But I remember when we signed in Goal or Kansas, I pretty much got him kidnapped. His agent to that time had a tag in Cumpley, Paris. So I got another agent to organize him to come across. And I just said, look, you're not leaving this room until he signed that contract. Was it, but, but interestingly, was their competition for him? Because, because, again, and the argument with Sangare is at Brentford, every, you know, a lot of people were talking about him. As Chris has mentioned, he was in the legal team at the season. It's not like he's a, he's a hidden gem. And yet there are other teams, and I'm not being just, well, I suppose I'm being disrespectful to Brentford here, but there are other teams who may think they have a greater reputation, or you're to a player than others, who are spending two or three times as much on a midfielder than in Sangare. Do you think there's sometimes, some of the bigger clubs can be snobbish sometimes? I think so, but, you know, you don't cut your nose off to spite your face. And, I mean, it's about being good at your job. And it's about that gut feeling, you know, this player, I've got to sign this player, because I really believe in him. How much does it change when the deals you're doing are for more means? Obviously, can't say Marraez that Vardy were all, it's a lot of money, but by kind of the standards we're seeing now, you've got for a state, yeah. But if you, as you, as you then are starting to think about 10, 15, 20 million pound players, how much more justification are you having to do to the people above you to, to sort of justify spending that amount of money? It's, it's, it's easier to go to them with a cheap deal. Somebody's got a bio clause. I also found that was, was pretty good for both the Everton and, and at Leicester. I remember signing, um, uh, signing address a gun again. And I knew that there was a 3.5 million release clause in his contract. So, when I went to Everton, he was the first player that I signed, even though it was on my list to go to Leicester to replace Galaxy before I, I, I left. And so I had, had that kind of in, in, in the store. So, you know, if you're asking them to, to part with a lot of money, uh, they want to see the stats and use, you know, bring the stats together, uh, to, to, to convince the, the owners that this is a player to sign. And then you'll bring a video footage, um, and, and the more, um, the more examples of them being a good player, they're better. Uh, so you can, you know, if Leicester, I was spending 60 million of your money, mate, you know, you need, you need as much knowledge of this player as possible. Um, and that it's not, it's not always easy. It's not always an easy cell, you know, it's the money. It's not your, do they sometimes say now? Oh, uh, Irland Harland, I was an Everton. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Back in the day. I mean, the building without, um, and they didn't get the, yeah, it was just 17 at the time, so you can understand that it was maybe a, some doubts about him, but I had no doubts. What would you have had to pay? I think it was 11 million euros at the time, I think. Uh, what was the deal? No, no, he was a, it was a, yeah, and, um, James Soulbacken was his agent at the time, and then he changed agents after that subsequently. Obviously, things kind of snowballed for him after that, and it's a book door and etc. One way of putting it, Steve. So, yeah, yes, so sometimes they, even when the deals are relatively cheap deal, it's about trust, isn't it? And when I was at Leicester, I was trusted implicitly, when I, when I was at other clubs, not. Wow. Steve, thank you very much. Coming up, appreciate it. Thank you. You always, but you always, Steve, also former director of football at Leicester and Everton, and I could just think of all the evertonians I know at the moment, banging their head off, off a desk, I think, a couple of, couple of my really good friends, brother-in-law, nephew, I could, oh, my word. Do you think they're you might not, you might not have cut it, you might not have cut it at 17. It's a fourth wicket, and it's the huge one. Two, three, four, set it down to the soul rate. Cricket on five lives. Four, three, four, three, four, three. Listen on BBC Sounds. Chris Sutton, Rory Smith, Andrews Townsend on the Monday nightclub, but as we've been saying, this opening weekend of the Premier League season seemed to catch more than most a little bit cold. I knew after a off-and-and-game, after off-and-and-game, I said that we are not in the right point, we are late for the starts of the Premier League. Often, especially at the beginning of the season, where our references are not really set, you can make mistakes, and they were really good at exploiting mistakes and the score twice. Do you just put it down to a little bit of rustiness when you make mistakes like that in the first game of the season? Yeah, it's often the case, not a unusual, but today it was massive. Probably we started the game the worst way, you know, we knew in Newcastle, La Trove, first game of decisions, and then just part of the atmosphere, the El Connistarte strong. No excuses at all of this game, but you know, it's the start of the season, of course. Maybe players are, you know, a little bit finding the form again. So you heard, Roberta Deserbet, Regis LeBrice and Donia Raola and Luke Shaw there. Anton Makalone has been on the Monday nightclub before, and in fact, the last time you were on Anton as a former Premier League head of performance, they absolutely hurt my head by the end of it, as we went through everything that you have to plan and work through when trying to plan players, regimes and training with a manager. But when you hear, so many people say, well, not ready, not fit, bit rusty, need to find form, do you understand that? Because I'll be honest, I think there's quite a few of us, a little bit skeptical about this this evening. Yeah, listen, it happens, it's one of anyone's obviously, different clubs, different managers, the training regimes that they have, obviously I enjoy, so I'll go a little bit from Meritio's time, it taught them how intense it was, so obviously as a player, you can sometimes maybe go into that first game, a little bit fatigued and tired, but like that, they were really strong and fit. So again, each club is very different. I think one of the key things are for the players as added in off games, have they had 90 minutes under the belt, how many 90 minutes have they actually had, have they only had 75 minutes of a game getting into that first league game. I think it's really crucial how many games, what's the training, the different travel restrictions, Andrews would have had it be when Asia, if you go to America, the different travel restrictions with it can cause chaos for players and coaches, a world cup on the different ends and out, so it can be very challenging and very difficult to actually have your base to live in for the first game of the season in prime condition, because an Arsenal is playing in the world cup, it might be a different tournament successor and it's very challenging to get them on the pitch and train them to the level that you want, because you wouldn't understand it, there may be a fatigue from a long season, maybe a six to game season for central players. So, I mean, and last time you came on to understand the planning of a training session, was absolutely, and everything that goes into it was absolutely fascinating. But if, let's take, let's take spurs and I'm not saying just because Roberto DeZerby was quite big on the fitness, I am, would it be right in saying then that a pre-season routine for spurs, you're still not treating every player the same, they could have individual routine still because of what they had done during the summer, is that, is that how it would work? Yes, it should look like a good example is either let Andrews use his case many years ago, he was coming back injured, it was a new manager. So again, he's got to be in the right condition, but the key thing there is obviously you might have players that they're looking to sell, so they might not be getting filled minutes, I think that's one of the key things, is the actual manager starting a living, making sure he's getting the right players back in, everyone will have an individual need of what the weekly loaders looking like, but can they actually cope with that because I think under Conte, that it was extreme pre-season for the player, a lot under Hurricane and they were really worked hard, so again it's really tough, but again it's forget that individual player is different, different injury needs, different needs based on what they've done in the offseason, but one of the things now is I think with the individual players is they're all going away and doing their offseason work, it's a new generation of players, so I do find it quite intriguing that some teams are not in peak form, again you're trying to return players in the team to peak fitness, but you've got a whole season, again you don't win anything in pre-season, again that's during the season, so it's really key to actually have the individuals firing on all cylinders, but making sure that they've played the minutes, needed to actually play for a premier league season because the premier league as you know is the toughest and the most demanded. And so on first of all, I hope you're well, it's been a long time, how tough is it as a fitness coach to have your plan for pre-season and then have your 20 hour trips to Asia, your signing sessions and your commercial side of it, when you just want to get the players fit and focus on that, how difficult is those outside elements when you're planning for a pre-season? Listen, you understand it, it's really challenging all the commitments, but what you need to be is you need to be adaptable, I think you need to stick to your principles of performance training, you know, like when did they need to recover, when did they need to do the work? It's key, I think, obviously, I would have America, Asia, you've got to get the work in, but obviously you've got to find it in the right time because you'll get the jet lag, the time zones changes in that, it's so complicated, but it's about maximising the work that you do have, so whether that's in pre, whether that's in the gym on the pitch, I think it's one of the things, you know, managers are what to do, doubles in triple sessions, or can you condense it, maybe into one session, you know, working on the range, wasn't really big on two sessions a week, sorry, two sessions a day, so you had to have maybe longer sessions expressed, so it's really key, but again, good communication with the staff, trying to maximise each day and each week with the coaching staff for what they need and the individual players, it's really crucial, but again, communication, strong planning and being adaptable, that what you might want to do, you might have to sacrifice a little bit of that for the player to make sure they're actually fresh, because being fresh is equally important about getting them ready for the first game of the season, because actually if you've done a 60 game season, you've done a World Cup, you are into the fit, but again, something's that freshness, you might be future, you've sometimes got to manage that. On that then, could you, is there an argument of you might not be 100% match fit for the start of the season, because what at the programme that we are putting in place is that you will be at peak fitness, say, and now, October, November, December? Yeah, I think, I do, you want to be ready for game one, I think that would be the crucial thing that you are ready for game one, but I think the club is worth strong scores, strong physical outputs, well, be able to be 60, 70 minutes for the start and 11 and then bring another five in, so working on the range in 20, 22, 23, there was only certain players that played 90 minutes before the opening game, but we continue to do preseason, or a preseason friend resolve the way through August to get the other players up to speed, but we had a strong squad and he used squad rotation, 60 minutes, five sums going on and we had to like for like physical attributes, as well as technical attributes, so I think the squad can be crucial as well, the actually have a strong squad that can actually go and do the game demands, so if you've got physical runners, you've got 10,000 MIDERS who use WTF switch, if you get players like that and you're being sure, even an Android or something, for preseason fitness, let's say these are typically like for like, if you don't have that same depth of squad and they're not at the same level, you're in trouble, so that's why you need everybody in the team to be at a high level for game one, because you need to win your opening game. Chris, because obviously the fitness wasn't a thing when you played, so no, no, no, we didn't do individual plans in the summer, we just we just used to have 12 pints of lava a day and eat pizzas and what have you, we're bothered about fitness. What I would say, I can't ever remember coming back for the start of the season and not being fit, I really interested and on it in your view on deservedly comments, he talked about the physical condition, not being right, I think the point Andros made about Pedro Poros at the World Cup, he talked about, he brought this up himself, he wasn't pushed on it, he talked about the trip to Australia and that being a bit of an issue, but surely he's now been in for the best part of 150 days now, and I get that we can sort of cut him a bit of slack because of what happened at the end of last season, kept Tottenham up, but surely he can say no to certain things, you know, surely the most important thing from a Tottenham fans perspective is for the team to be ready physically and, you know, teams can play badly and, you know, Brentford's good team, which they were, they, you know, on their day they can, they can be anybody in the Premier League, but for the manager to offer up so many excuses about the lack of physicality, I just, I found that absolutely astounding, it was like they, it was, it was like the interview which he gave, you know, after the defeat by Brentford, that was like an interview which you'd hear halfway through preseason, so that is on him, really, isn't it? Yeah, 100%, I think it's one of the things Andros will tell you, having been there for many years at Tottenham, the first game of the season is the most important thing with Wanda Ramos, who won lots of preseason games and Andros was part of that preseason and then they went in a terrible run, the lost players, the manager gets out of there, I think, 19 games in Harry Reid and that coming. So, listen, it's first and foremost, once that first game goes, you've got to be ready, I think, like that is, you've got to look at how they've done too much, I think the travel does kill it, I think you've got the team to go to Australia and New Zealand, the jet lag is unbelievable, the fact that international players can cope with that, it takes three and four days out, the ball of the Andros will have it, he's been over in Asia, it's really difficult to come back to that, impacts the training, but again, it's all for finances, so I think that's one of the problems that, you know, whether you take your younger players to day tournaments and you save guard players and keep them behind Andros, and stuff like that back in the day, Tottenham played European matches with that first team and a 21st team to protect players, I think it's key bit, you can't accept, you know, looking at your opening game, not being ready, you've got to find a solution, I don't think there's time for that to look and go, look, we'll get a few games, three, four games you get in the Premier League and you can be sacked as a manager, so, and it's performing stuff, we need to support the manager and figure out solutions, that was one of the key things working with elite managers is how can you get the players ready, are they fresh, are they fit, these are elite players now, they're not, you know, looking back 20 years ago, there have been poor offseason, these guys are in great condition, so that's something that I've got to say, I take offense to that, I really do take offense to that, I think that's a ridiculous throw away, really, you can suggest that whole players 20 years ago weren't bothered about their physical fitness. Well, so you understand your gym hatred, so I'll take, you know, the gym drove a hard preseason, Martin and you obviously you understand some of the preseason stories, you wouldn't miss the gym hatred, you wouldn't miss the gym hatred. I know exactly who he is, top guy of the great people at Celtic, so, listen, but again, the mentality was, as you'd players, it could turn off and I might say Chris, so obviously, players that came out a start of the afternoon were ready to play, I think that's one of the key things, the mentality, whether it's just the physical part, the actual mentality part of competing for games as crucial as real as real as the physical, the technical, the technical. I was going to say, I've got two questions, Anton, do you think, and it's related to Chris getting to talk to you about his own sense of his own mortality, do we kind of run to think about a preseason, because it's not, is it, does it, it's not like there is a defined break, there were players playing until what July the 19th for the four countries that made the semifinals of the World Cup, they then get a couple of weeks break in which they are doing their own fitness work, they are coming back in the best knit they can, at which point, at least half of them have to get on a plane and fly to Malaysia or the United States or wherever. We think, I mean, first class, and they have all the tight pants, which, you know, I mean, they're wardrobe choices and no business and minecrafts, people can dress how they like it, it's 2026. Is there a point in which you're not actually really getting to do that baseline thing where you say, we set our standards now, as was the case for years and years and years, what you're doing is trying to manage a decline in their fitness, not decline their fitness, but like sustain a level in their fitness, it's these overwhelming obstacles that the endless packing of the calendar are throwing in your way, which means that what we're seeing to an extent is football is richer than ever, and in lots of ways it's kind of more, you know, it's kind of more kind of global and more, it's advancing tactically and technically in terms of nutrition in, you know, light speed, but it's, everyone's always an advocate. Is that, is that, is that, is that difficult? I think one of the, I think it is for you, I think the travel, listening to Nandros these, obviously, this is the, it was still there, the travel and the commercial agreements, but the thing was, you've got to find a way around the problem, so like that, if you know that, I know it's talking of, for example, maybe the first 10 days would be brutal, doubles, triple sessions, no days off, to get that base level before you then went and traveled, because it was going to be impacted, but when we've done it in a, I mean, you still worked out, there were still doubles, triples, and you had to cope with it, whether it was a, it's sales take, for example, the guys would maybe be playing champions, they'd qualify us three or four weeks in, guys would join K, they would have to work the team hard, so you had to do it, you know, you don't have that a luxury of reduce weight to the first game of the season, you had to do it, but you've got to find a solution, so it is difficult, but I think it can be an excuse of getting to that first game of the season, you have to find a way around it, get the players fit, whether it's, you know, doing chamber work, whether it's in the gym, all the different parts and being smart, like, how do you train them? My second question was, you hear it a lot, managers coming in saying the players aren't fitting off, and as soon as I hear that, I immediately think it's use, because I, as much as I can believe that some managers have highest fitness standards than others, I refused to believe that any manager who's operated in the Premier League, since Chris Sutton was a boy, even before Chris, back in the black and white days, had players who weren't fit, like it, it seems you're presumably talking about minor, like, gradual incremental differences in fitness, or different types of fitness, even, rather than, what, will the previous guy let them all get fat? And I was going to add on to that, actually, because that was going to be my final question, Anton, which is, in this day and age, with everything that is available to, to performance directors and players, and you mentioned chambers and this and the other, is there a, would there be a massive difference in fitness requirement for Roberto deserving coming into Spurs, or Irraola coming into Liverpool? Because that's what we're told, you know, that style of football requires a different, is it maybe just a different type of fitness, rather than a greater fitness? I, Andrew, I, and Rosalind, can testify to, I think to play a high face in high style game, you have to work, as in, in volume and intensity, the work it was done in Mauritio, or even an inch, very different styles, but the workers are, the training sessions for everything from pre-Gym, was all about the game style, how do we press, how do we recover, how do we run, it was, it was sort of, and it was survival of the fitness, so I think it is really key, the key thing is, is the, the players, to actually do it, I think Andrew, was a testament to the, the high level of, of young players at the club, there was a lot of fit players, obviously Andrews, Ryan Mason, the Bill Ben, Alab, guys, it could run, play, technically excellent, so I think you need the right players, and I think you need obviously the right players to play that style, and again, you have to either recruit that peat guard, or do all of it, man, sit after one year, okay, walk or come in, if you don't have it, you're going to have to bring in the right players, probably the demands and then you have to accept a little bit, what that actually looks like back in, and fitness levels, I think the top players are, do everything Andrew, so tell you that their levels are so much higher, to our leading one, maybe a championship player, go on Andrews, and then we'll let you go. Yeah, I'll just, I'll just add on to that, because going from a team show to, to, to, to Maurizio Pochettino, was like, night and day, like before Maurizio Pochettino, it's right, I want to be fit when I have the ball, I can triple forward, I can do my stuff, whereas Pochettino is like, no, like 50% of your game now is what you do out of possession. Can you start the press? Can you sprint back? Can you run without the ball in behind? So there's a big difference, when you get these managers like in Ireola who, they put big demand out of possession, it requires a lot more physically from the player than just your, your standard sort of low block manager. And so thank you very much for joining us, really appreciate it this evening, and on McAlone, former Premier League head of performers. That's it for this Monday nightclub, thanks to Chris, Andrews, and Rory, next up on the football daily Carell Prince Live Detector. 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