🎙️ Football Daily (BBC Radio 5 Live) •September 28, 2026 •⏱️ 56 min

MNC: Man City's charges verdict and England prepare in Prague

🎧 Listen to Original Episode →

1. Executive Overview: Core Theses & Key Revelations

The contemporary elite football landscape operates at a turbulent nexus where multi-billion-pound financial litigation, radical tactical re-engineering, and high-stakes international governance intersect. A recent broadcast of BBC Radio 5 Live's Monday Night Club served as a revealing mirror for these converging pressures. Featuring a panel of veteran figures—former Manchester City and England goalkeeper Joe Hart, seasoned international winger Andros Townsend, and former Chelsea winger and executive analyst Pat Nevin—the discussion navigated the dramatic spectrum of modern football, spanning from existential legal battles in boardroom corridors to surreal physical hazards on the pitch.

At the center of the dialogue sat the unprecedented fallout surrounding Manchester City's 115 Financial Fair Play (FFP) and Profitability and Sustainability Rules (PSR) charges brought by the Premier League. With premature leaks suggesting that 114 out of the 115 charges had been upheld against the reigning champions, the panel probed the explosive ramifications of potential disciplinary outcomes. Pat Nevin introduced the historic precedent of Glasgow Rangers' 2012 financial collapse and subsequent administrative demotion to the fourth tier of Scottish football, questioning whether the Premier League possesses the institutional resolve—or could withstand the macroeconomic shockwaves—of levying a comparable punishment against its dominant force. Simultaneously, Joe Hart offered a robust insider defense of Manchester City Chairman Khaldoon Al Mubarak, detailing how players compartmentalize existential off-pitch legal battles while maintaining unwavering trust in executive leadership.

Beyond the immediate English context, European football expert James Horncastle brought vital historical perspective by referencing Italy's 2006 Calciopoli scandal. Horncastle highlighted how a rushed sporting trial completed in a single summer created a quarter-century of institutional bitterness, while the protracted criminal trials dragged on until 2010. Nevin amplified this warning, citing the retroactive awarding of the 2006 Serie A title to Inter Milan as the single most poisonous administrative act in modern Italian football history—a sobering precedent for Premier League regulators considering retrospective title reallocations or retroactive points deductions.

The episode further traversed the bizarre and human elements of the professional game, headlined by Andros Townsend's remarkable account of surviving a half-time pitch roller accident. The incident—which resulted in severe muscle, tendon, and bone bruising but miraculously avoided structural fractures or ligament tears—opened a wider debate on stadium operational safety and player welfare standards in top-tier football.

On the international stage, the panel dissected Thomas Tuchel's initial management strategy for the England national team, specifically his refusal to guarantee Jordan Pickford's starting jersey while explicitly mandating high-stress competition across the squad. Townsend articulated a sharp tactical thesis regarding England's identity, arguing that attempts to directly replicate Pep Guardiola's Manchester City blueprint are futile, pointing instead to Arsenal's set-piece specialization under Nicolas Jover as the definitive model for tactical adaptation. Finally, the panel reflected on Lionel Messi's announced international retirement match against Benin, analyzing the immense psychological weight of Argentina's iconic number 10 shirt and exploring whether generational shirt succession requires ceremonial endorsement from the outgoing legend or radical administrative decoupling.

Pillar Analysis Primary Discussion Vector Key Analytical Finding
Financial Compliance & Governance Man City 115 Charges & Leak Fallout Rushed PR and leaks collapse administrative protocol; Rangers precedent demonstrates tier-demotion fallout risk.
Historical Litigation Precedent Italian 2006 Calciopoli Parallel Expedited sporting trials create long-term institutional illegitimacy when detached from criminal/legal resolutions.
Occupational Safety & Operations Townsend Half-Time Pitch Roller Collision Highlights critical vulnerabilities in stadium operational safety and pitch maintenance protocols during match windows.
International Tactical Identity Tuchel's England & Set-Piece Specialization Replicating City's positional dogma is inefficient; stress-tested competition and set-piece engineering offer superior returns.
Generational Legacy & Succession Messi's Argentina Farewell & #10 Shirt Weight Iconic shirt inheritance demands ceremonial endorsement ("the nod") to mitigate immense psychological pressure.

2. Context & Background: The Landscape Leading to This Conversation

To fully appreciate the gravity of the panel's exchange, one must trace the structural shifts that have reorganized global football over the past decade. The Premier League's implementation of Profitability and Sustainability Rules was designed to preserve financial stability and prevent predatory spending beyond a club's organic revenue generation. However, the regulatory architecture has faced continuous friction when applied to state-backed entities and clubs with complex commercial structures. The 115 charges brought against Manchester City in February 2023—spanning an nine-year investigation window from 2009 to 2018—represented the most extensive regulatory enforcement action in elite sports history. The allegations encompass alleged failures to provide accurate financial information regarding revenue, operational costs, sponsor disclosures, and managerial remuneration, alongside non-cooperation with independent investigations.

The timing of the Monday Night Club discussion arrived amidst an environment of intense media speculation following leaked reports regarding the tribunal's preliminary findings. In elite sports arbitration, strict confidentiality protocols are established to protect the integrity of the process, prevent market manipulation for publicly traded stakeholders, and maintain commercial stability across the broadcast landscape. The breakdown of this confidentiality—characterized by Nevin as a PR disaster for both the league and the club—has destroyed any structured communication strategy, forcing both entities into reactive crisis management.

Concurrently, the broader European football landscape is navigating profound structural transitions. In Italy, the shadow of Calciopoli continues to influence how sporting tribunals interact with ordinary civil law. The 2006 scandal, which saw Juventus stripped of two Serie A titles and demoted to Serie B while Lazio, Fiorentina, AC Milan, and Reggina suffered heavy points penalties, remains a case study in the perils of expedited sports litigation. The haste with which sporting bodies executed punishment, contrasted with the multi-year criminal trials that ultimately acquitted several figures or saw charges expire under statutes of limitation, established a persistent cynicism among supporters regarding administrative neutrality.

In international football, the transition toward the 48-team 2026 FIFA World Cup has initiated squad resets across major federations. England's appointment of Thomas Tuchel marks a decisive departure from Gareth Southgate's culture-focused, eight-year tenure toward a tactically pragmatic, tournament-specialist framework. Tuchel inherits a generation of talent accustomed to positional dominance at club level, forcing a re-evaluation of how international managers build tactical cohesion within restricted international training windows. Simultaneously, South American football stands on the precipice of an era-defining shift as Lionel Messi prepares for his final international appearance. Following Argentina's 2022 World Cup triumph in Qatar and back-to-back Copa América titles, the departure of football's preeminent figure forces Argentina to address the psychological and structural vacuum left by his retirement.

Finally, in domestic player development, smaller European leagues—such as the Scottish Premiership—face acute structural barriers. Young prospects attached to legacy institutions like Glasgow Rangers and Celtic encounter restricted pathways to first-team minutes due to immediate win-now pressures and international squad recruitment. This dynamic forces ambitious talent to seek unconventional career pathways in continental Europe or lower-tier English football, highlighting systemic flaws in traditional academy-to-first-team transitions.

3. Deep-Dive Thematic Breakdown

3.1 The Manchester City Financial Saga: Leak Dynamics, Legal Escalation, and the Rangers Precedent

The discussion surrounding Manchester City's legal battle centered on the operational and macroeconomic consequences of potential administrative sanctions. The leak alleging that 114 out of 115 charges were upheld destabilized the narrative equilibrium that both Manchester City and the Premier League had attempted to maintain. Pat Nevin emphasized that regardless of the ultimate verdict, the public handling of the proceeding has been disastrous. By failing to control the flow of information, both institutions have allowed speculation to fill the vacuum, creating an volatile environment where rival clubs, supporters, and commercial partners draw entrenched conclusions prior to formal adjudication.

Nevin introduced a striking historical parallel by invoking Glasgow Rangers' 2012 financial collapse. When Rangers entered administration and subsequently underwent liquidation, Scottish football authorities enforced a drop to the fourth tier (Third Division) of the domestic pyramid. Nevin posed a fundamental question: if an independent tribunal determines that financial non-compliance yielded systemic competitive distortion over nearly a decade, does the Premier League possess the regulatory courage to impose expulsion or multi-division demotion?

The macroeconomic ramifications of such an outcome would be unprecedented in modern sports history. Demotion to lower tiers would instantly trigger contractual insolvency dynamics for a squad valued in excess of one billion euros. Standard elite player contracts contain automatic salary reduction or release clauses upon relegation, potentially initiating a fire-sale of international talent that would reshape the global transfer market. Furthermore, Manchester City's commercial partnerships, global broadcast yields, and stadium infrastructure financing are calibrated on continuous UEFA Champions League participation and Premier League title contention. A forced demotion would not only destabilize City's corporate balance sheet but would also impact the Premier League's international broadcast valuations, which rely heavily on high-octane competitive narratives featuring elite global brands.

Nevin further cautioned that extreme punitive measures could re-ignite existential threats to the European football pyramid. If Manchester City were expelled from the Premier League or subjected to punitive multi-year bans, the club's state-backed ownership group would have little incentive to remain compliant with the domestic ecosystem. Such an outcome could catalyze the resurrection of the European Super League concept or catalyze the formation of an independent, private-equity-funded global breakaway circuit—analogous to the disruption executed by LIV Golf in professional golf. In this scenario, elite state-backed clubs could bypass traditional UEFA and domestic league governance entirely, creating a permanent schism in elite sport.

In contrast to Nevin's macro-institutional skepticism, Joe Hart offered an unvarnished player perspective grounded in his personal relationships with Manchester City's executive leadership, specifically Chairman Khaldoon Al Mubarak. Hart rejected speculative media narratives, asserting that during his tenure at the club, Al Mubarak maintained absolute transparency and professional integrity. Hart detailed how elite players process boardroom turbulence, explaining that professional athletes possess an extraordinary capacity to compartmentalize external noise. For players, the reality of match preparation remains strictly bounded by 11-versus-11 competition on the grass. Hart emphasized that until formal administrative rulings are officially declared, players rely on the direct word of executive leadership rather than external commentary.

Hart also highlighted the contents of Al Mubarak's open letter to supporters, which reiterated the club's unwavering confidence in its innocence while underscoring their strict adherence to legal confidentiality. Al Mubarak expressed frustration at being unable to publicly refute specific allegations due to non-disclosure obligations governing the tribunal. This tension highlights the communication dilemma facing elite sports organizations: maintaining legal decorum often leaves an entity defenseless in the court of public opinion, where leaked fragments and simplified summaries dominate the media landscape.

3.2 Calciopoli Precedents and the Poisonous Legacy of Expedited Sporting Justice

The analytical depth of the podcast was significantly elevated by James Horncastle's historical comparative analysis of Italy's 2006 Calciopoli scandal. The parallel provides vital insights into the dangers of attempting to resolve complex financial and governance disputes within compressed sporting timelines. In 2006, the Italian Football Federation (FIGC) faced immense pressure to execute sports justice prior to UEFA's strict deadlines for registering clubs for the upcoming Champions League and UEFA Cup seasons. Consequently, the sporting trial was conducted in weeks, relying on selectively leaked wiretap transcripts generated by Italian law enforcement agencies.

Horncastle pointed out the severe disparity between the swift sporting trial of 2006 and the subsequent civil and criminal proceedings, which dragged on for years and only reached final resolution in 2010. While Juventus was stripped of the 2004–05 and 2005–06 Scudetti and relegated to Serie B, subsequent criminal court proceedings produced nuanced findings that contradicted many of the initial assumptions of the expedited sporting tribunal. By the time legal nuance emerged, the competitive and financial landscape of Italian football had been altered beyond repair.

Pat Nevin seized on this historical lesson, characterizing the FIGC's decision to retroactively award the 2005–06 Serie A title to Inter Milan as the single most poisonous administrative act in Italian football history. Rather than restoring integrity, the retroactive assignment created an enduring perception of bias and administrative overreach. Supporters of penalised clubs viewed the outcome not as impartial justice, but as a political reshuffling of domestic dominance. Nevin argued that this historical precedent serves as an explicit warning to Premier League administrators: if retrospective points deductions or title strippings are enacted against Manchester City without absolute legal finality, the Premier League risks instilling a permanent cynicism among its global fanbase.

The lesson for modern sports regulation is unequivocal. Rushing administrative judgments to satisfy media cycles or immediate season calendars creates systemic fragility. If the Premier League's eventual ruling is perceived as procedurally flawed or compromised by external political pressure from rival club executives, the resulting litigation will tie up English football in appellate courts and civil tribunals for a decade, inflicting structural damage far exceeding the underlying financial compliance breaches.

3.3 Physical Hazards and Professional Vulnerability: Deconstructing the Pitch Roller Freak Incident

In a dramatic shift from boardroom litigation to pitch-level operations, the episode featured a detailed account from Andros Townsend regarding a freak incident during a recent match warmup. Townsend described the surreal experience of being struck and run over by a heavy motorized pitch roller deployed during the half-time interval. The operational anomaly—deploying industrial groundskeeping machinery while players were actively performing high-intensity warm-up routines on the pitch—represented a critical failure of stadium safety management.

Townsend detailed the immediate physical impact and the subsequent diagnostic findings following comprehensive MRI scans. The imaging revealed extensive trauma across four distinct anatomical zones, showing severe stress to the muscle tissue, tendons, and underlying bone architecture. The diagnostic breakdown confirmed widespread inflammation, acute tissue swelling, and deep bone bruising. Miraculously, despite the substantial weight of the machinery passing over his leg, the scans confirmed no structural fractures, no ligament tears, and no permanent tendon avulsions.

From a biomechanical perspective, Townsend explained that his instinctual reaction during the collision saved him from catastrophic injury. By collapsing to the ground immediately upon contact rather than attempting to brace against the machine or remain upright, he avoided fixed axial loading on his weight-bearing limb. Had his foot remained planted under the weight of the roller, the torsional force would have inevitably caused open compound fractures of the tibia and fibula, alongside complete disruption of the knee ligament complex—an injury combination that would have proved career-ending.

The incident opens significant legal and regulatory questions regarding stadium operations and duty of care. Host venues owe an absolute non-delegable duty of care to participating athletes to ensure that the playing surface and immediate technical areas remain free of operational hazards. The deployment of heavy machinery during active warm-up windows represents a breach of basic stadium risk assessment protocols. Despite possessing undeniable grounds for personal injury litigation, Townsend expressed a pragmatic desire to forgo legal proceedings, prioritizing his physical recovery and immediate playing availability. However, the event serves as a warning for league administrators to standardize half-time groundskeeping protocols to prevent catastrophic operational accidents.

3.4 International Squad Mechanics: Tuchel's Pressure Philosophy and England's Tactical Identity

Transitioning to international football, the panel scrutinized Thomas Tuchel's initial squad selections and tactical directives as England manager. The core debate focused on Tuchel's public statements regarding long-standing starting goalkeeper Jordan Pickford. While Tuchel affirmed that there was no immediate requirement to strip Pickford of the starting jersey, he explicitly emphasized the urgent need to introduce intense internal competition across every position. Tuchel's management philosophy rejects comfortable starter guarantees, insisting that international players must be continuously evaluated under conditions of genuine stress and psychological pressure.

Joe Hart endorsed Tuchel's demanding methodology, drawing on his own experience as England's long-term starting goalkeeper. Hart argued that elite international performance requires an environment where positions are constantly contested. Comfortable incumbency can breed subtle complacency, whereas high-stakes internal competition sharpens focus during high-pressure tournament knockout matches. Tuchel's approach signals to the squad that past service under Southgate will not grant immunity, establishing a meritocratic environment where place security is tied directly to real-time performance metrics and emotional resilience under pressure.

Addressing England's overarching tactical identity, Andros Townsend articulated a sharp, realistic assessment of modern international coaching constraints. Townsend rejected the popular media narrative that England should simply emulate Pep Guardiola's Manchester City framework. He explained that Guardiola's system relies on thousands of hours of automated positional repetition, precise spatial awareness, and specialized micro-coaching that cannot be replicated within short international training windows lasting only a few days.

Instead, Townsend pointed to Arsenal's tactical evolution under Mikel Arteta—specifically their mastery of set-piece routines engineered by specialist coach Nicolas Jover—as the practical blueprint for international success. Set-piece organization requires minimal open-play synchronization while yielding high-probability expected goals (xG) output. In international football, where structural chemistry is inherently limited, mastering dead-ball mechanics and high-efficiency defensive structures offers a far higher return on investment than attempting complex positional rotations in build-up play.

3.5 Generational Succession: Lionel Messi's Farewell and the Psychological Weight of the Number 10

The panel closed its international analysis by reflecting on Lionel Messi's announced final international appearance for Argentina against Benin on October 6. The statistical magnitude of Messi's international career stands unprecedented in modern football history: 207 caps, 125 goals, 60 assists, 34 World Cup appearances, and 23 World Cup match victories. Having led Argentina to the 2022 World Cup title and back-to-back Copa América crowns, Messi's farewell marks the conclusion of South American football's most decorated individual era.

The discussion focused on the generational dilemma facing the Argentine Football Association (AFA): how to handle the iconic number 10 shirt following Messi's departure. Joe Hart and Andros Townsend provided player perspectives on the psychological burden associated with inheriting legendary squad numbers. Hart argued that given the immense historical weight carried by the shirt—previously worn by Diego Maradona and elevated to mythical status by Messi—the next recipient cannot simply claim the jersey through standard squad numbering. Instead, Hart insisted that the succession must occur through a formal, ceremonial passing of the torch, where Messi explicitly grants "the nod" to his designated successor.

Townsend echoed this sentiment, emphasizing that unless a young player possesses extraordinary psychological resilience, donning Argentina's number 10 without explicit endorsement from Messi could crush their career under the weight of public expectation. He noted that in elite sports culture, such as the ceremonial jersey assignments observed in the NFL, formal endorsement from a departing legend provides essential psychological protection for the incoming player.

Pat Nevin offered a counter-narrative, advocating for an administrative decoupling of expectation. Nevin suggested assigning the number 10 shirt to an unheralded full-back or defensive midfielder. By intentionally bestowing the jersey upon a player with a non-playmaking positional profile, the federation could defuse the media narrative, breaking the direct line of comparison to Maradona and Messi and allowing Argentina's next generation of creative attackers to develop without carrying an intolerable burden.

3.6 Scottish Football's Structural Reset: Tactical Risk-Taking and Youth Development Pathways

The final thematic segment focused on domestic player development and tactical innovation within Scottish football. Analyzing Scotland's 0-0 draw away to Slovenia under a new managerial regime, Pat Nevin highlighted the manager's willingness to embrace tactical risk. Trailing open-play control in the first half, Scotland's manager adjusted to a high-risk 3-versus-3 defensive structure against Slovenia's aggressive forward line, explicitly refusing to drop wing-backs into a conservative five-man low block.

Joe Hart praised this bold tactical approach, drawing direct comparisons to his experience playing under Ange Postecoglou at Celtic. Hart noted that elite managers establish their cultural authority by holding firm to their attacking principles when under pressure. When a manager refuses to retreat into defensive conservatism during away international matches, it sends an empowering signal to the squad, accelerating player buy-in and fostering a proactive tactical identity.

Nevin transitioned this tactical analysis into a broader critique of Scottish youth development, highlighting the career trajectory of Robbie Brady and the structural barriers facing young Scottish talent. Nevin observed that prospects attached to Glasgow Rangers and Celtic are routinely denied pathways to first-team football due to the relentless demand for immediate domestic trophies and European qualification. Consequently, young players are often trapped in reserve team circuits until their physical and tactical development stagnates.

Reflecting on his own career pathway—leaving Celtic as a teenager to play over 100 first-team matches for Clyde and Partick Thistle before moving to Chelsea—Nevin argued that meaningful senior match minutes are the indispensable driver of player development. Modern academies often hoard talent, preventing young players from experiencing the physical stress, tactical accountability, and competitive pressures of senior professional football. Nevin urged young Scottish prospects to prioritize immediate playing time in secondary domestic divisions or continental leagues over remaining comfortably parked on elite club bench rosters.

4. Speaker Perspectives & Analytical Contrast

The strength of the Monday Night Club episode lies in the sharp analytical contrast between its contributors. Each speaker evaluates complex footballing phenomena through a distinct professional lens, reflecting their unique career backgrounds across elite playing, executive administration, and tactical journalism.

Contributor Primary Analytical Lens Core Position / Thesis Methodological Stance Key Friction / Contrast Vector
Pat Nevin Institutional Analyst & Historical Critic PR handling of City charges is disastrous; expedited sports trials (Calciopoli, Rangers) destroy systemic legitimacy. Historical comparative analysis & regulatory critique. Challenges Hart's executive trust; emphasizes macro-governance failures and systemic unintended consequences.
Joe Hart Elite Player Insider & Executive Pragmatist Absolute trust in Khaldoon Al Mubarak; players compartmentalize off-pitch legal drama to focus strictly on match execution. First-hand experience & locker-room operational reality. Rejects media speculation; defends executive integrity against Nevin's macro-regulatory skepticism.
Andros Townsend Active Pro & Tactical Realist England cannot copy Pep's City; set-piece engineering (Arsenal/Jover) offers superior international ROI. Survived pitch roller collision. Technical player evaluation & occupational hazard experience. Pragmatic view on legal action; focuses on tactical efficiency and immediate physical recovery.
James Horncastle European Football Historian Expedited sporting trials create long-term institutional corruption perceptions (Calciopoli 2006 vs 2010 criminal trial). Legal-historical comparative research. Provides European policy context, illustrating how rushed sporting justice fractures fan trust.

The dialogue between Pat Nevin and Joe Hart revealed the fundamental divide between external institutional analysis and internal locker-room experience. Nevin views the Manchester City saga through the lens of sports governance, warning of regulatory collapse, European Super League breakaway risks, and historic precedents like Glasgow Rangers and Calciopoli. He identifies the breakdown of confidentiality as an existential threat to the league's credibility.

Conversely, Joe Hart operates from the pragmatic reality of the elite athlete. Having worked directly under Khaldoon Al Mubarak, Hart evaluates leadership through personal experience of executive transparency and corporate stewardship. For Hart, legal charges remain speculative noise until formal verdicts are delivered. His perspective highlights how professional players isolate themselves from external media frenzies, maintaining absolute focus on tactical preparation and match execution.

Andros Townsend provided a vital middle ground, combining active playing experience with practical tactical intelligence. His breakdown of England's tactical identity grounded the international discussion in realistic coaching constraints, rejecting idealistic media narratives in favor of measurable set-piece efficiency. Furthermore, his unvarnished account of surviving the pitch roller accident highlighted the operational vulnerabilities that persist even within high-budget modern sports facilities.

5. Strategic & Industry Implications

The analytical threads unspooled during the podcast carry profound strategic implications for the future of global sports governance, legal administration, stadium operations, and tactical engineering.

Regulatory Governance and Financial Compliance Infrastructure

The ongoing litigation between the Premier League and Manchester City marks a permanent turning point in elite sports regulation. The reliance on legacy financial fair play rules—designed primarily for conventional single-owner capital injections—has proven inadequate for evaluating complex, state-backed multi-club ownership models. If the tribunal's final determination involves severe punitive measures (such as tier demotion or retrospective title revocation), it will establish a precedent that fundamentally alters investor risk assessments across European football.

Conversely, if Manchester City successfully overturns the charges on appeal or proves procedural invalidity, the Premier League's regulatory authority will be severely compromised. Such an outcome would accelerate calls for an independent government-backed football regulator in the United Kingdom, stripping domestic league executives of self-regulatory oversight. Furthermore, extreme sanctions risk catalyzing breakaway initiatives, where state-backed entities leverage private equity to establish alternative global competitive structures outside UEFA and FIFA jurisdiction.

Legal Timelines versus Media Management in Modern Litigation

The premature leaking of tribunal findings highlights an acute vulnerability in modern sports arbitration. In high-profile financial compliance disputes, maintaining absolute confidentiality is critical to preventing market volatility, brand degradation, and media distortion. The failure to control information flows in the City case demonstrates that governing bodies must overhaul their legal communication frameworks. Rushing sporting judgments to satisfy media demands—as demonstrated by the 2006 Calciopoli precedent—destroys long-term institutional legitimacy. Modern sports leagues must prioritize procedural perfection and absolute legal finality over expedited public relations wins.

Stadium Operational Standards and Player Risk Mitigation

Andros Townsend's half-time pitch roller accident exposes glaring oversights in stadium facility management and occupational safety. Elite professional football players represent multi-million-pound human capital assets. Allowing heavy industrial maintenance equipment onto active pitch surfaces while athletes are conducting high-intensity warm-up routines reflects an unacceptable breach of operational protocol. Governing bodies must establish standardized stadium safety guidelines that enforce strict physical separation between groundskeeping machinery and player activation zones during live match windows.

Tactical Adaptation in International Football

Townsend's analysis of international tactical design offers a strategic roadmap for national team federations. As elite club football becomes increasingly complex—defined by micro-positional structures, inverted full-backs, and automated press-resistance—national team managers must recognize the impossibility of replicating these systems within brief international windows. The future of successful international coaching lies in hyper-efficient set-piece engineering, robust defensive organization, and psychological stress-testing. Federations that prioritize specialized set-piece coaches and meritocratic squad competition will consistently outperform those attempting to force complex club systems onto international squads.

6. Looking Ahead: Unresolved Questions & Next Milestones

As global football navigates this period of structural uncertainty, several key operational milestones and unresolved analytical questions will determine the future trajectory of the sport.

Key Operational Milestones to Monitor

  • Premier League Independent Tribunal Verdict & Appeals Timeline: The formal release of the tribunal's full written judgment regarding Manchester City's 115 charges, followed by the immediate filing of appeals to domestic appellate panels or the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS).
  • Thomas Tuchel's Initial England Squad Selections: The tactical layout and personnel choices in England's upcoming World Cup qualification fixtures, specifically monitoring goalkeeping rotations between Jordan Pickford and emerging competitors.
  • Lionel Messi's Farewell Match & AFA Jersey Protocol: The formal retirement ceremony following Argentina's international fixture against Benin on October 6, and the AFA's subsequent decision regarding the allocation or temporary restructuring of the number 10 shirt.
  • Scottish Football Youth Development Reform: Policy initiatives by the Scottish FA to enforce first-team loan pathways or reserve competition restructures to ensure young domestic prospects secure senior match minutes.
  • Stadium Safety Protocol Audits: Premier League and EFL operational reviews regarding half-time pitch maintenance procedures and equipment deployment regulations following Andros Townsend's collision.

Critical Unresolved Analytical Questions

  • If Manchester City is subjected to severe financial or competitive sanctions, will state-backed ownership groups remain committed to the Premier League ecosystem, or will they actively fund rival global breakaway structures?
  • Can the Premier League avoid the long-term institutional cynicism that plagued Serie A following Calciopoli if retrospective title reassignments are enacted?
  • Will Thomas Tuchel's stress-testing philosophy successfully instil tournament resilience in England's squad, or will removing place security destabilize team chemistry during critical qualifying phases?
  • Can Argentina establish a post-Messi tactical identity that avoids over-reliance on a single creative figurehead, and will inheriting the number 10 shirt prove a career burden or an empowering catalyst for the next generation?

Ultimately, the broad-ranging discussions on BBC Radio 5 Live's Monday Night Club illuminate a sport at a historical crossroads. Whether navigating the high-stakes legal battles of financial regulation, enforcing basic stadium safety standards, or managing the delicate passing of generational iconography, elite football demands rigorous administrative integrity, operational professionalism, and tactical clarity. The coming months will reveal whether the sport's governing institutions possess the resilience required to lead through this era of unprecedented transformation.

💬 Key Quotes & Speaker Breakdown

Manchester City charges

"If you do kick them out of the league, you think that's impossible? Glasgow Rangers went down to the fourth tier of Scottish football not that long ago for what happened with them."

— Pat Nevin

"I've got no reason not to trust Khaldoon. He's delivered me good news, he's delivered me bad news, he's been excellent with everything that he's done with Manchester City."

— Joe Hart

"The sporting trial of Calciopoli was done over one summer. The criminal trial didn't end until 2010. That time, football's never recovered from that."

— James Horncastle

"The PR around the Manchester City charges is dreadful from either side. Any structured way that either side wanted to deal with it is now blown."

— Pat Nevin

England squad selection

"There is no need to take the shirt away from Jordan Pickford at the moment, but there is a little bit of a need of competition. We need to see what the players are capable of under stress and under pressure."

— Thomas Tuchel

Calciopoli scandal

"The fact that Inter were given the title in 2006 is the most poisonous thing that I think ever happened in Italian football because it led people to look at the sporting trial and say you rushed the judgment."

— Pat Nevin

England tactical identity

"We're never going to copy Man City and beat Man City at what they do because they're the best at it. Arsenal took parts of what they learned from Pep Guardiola and took them to the next level through set pieces."

— Andros Townsend

Lionel Messi retirement

"I think Messi is going to have to give the number 10 shirt to someone like in a sort of ceremonial way. Unless you've got someone with ridiculous confidence, you're going to need the nod from the main man."

— Joe Hart

Andros Townsend pitch accident

"I'm not looking to continue any legal battles and look to gain anything from it. I'm here to enjoy my final few years."

— Joe Hart
📜 View Full Episode Verbatim Transcript 55,939 characters
This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. How did Katzai become one of the biggest girl groups in the world? I'm Asma Khalid. And I'm Tristan Redmond and together we host the global story podcast from the BBC. In this episode we give you everything there is to know about Katzai. They've gone from their first EP to a sold out US tour in just two years. But has their stratospheric success revealed a darker side of the K-pop model? Search for the global story at BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to the Monday Night Club 2 huge stories with real global impact over the last week or so. You've got Manchester City and 114 of the 115 charges against them being upheld. But you've also got a piece of agricultural machinery running over a player on the pitch. So we'll talk about both those huge stories with very relevant people in Joe Hart and Andrews Townsend. Pat Devon with us as well. MNC at bbc.co.uk 0808 5909 693. You couldn't wait off air Joe to get into Andrews could you on this? Well I need to do it off air because you're not like to swear but it was what the is going on Andrews talk to me. Talk to me about what I'm seeing. I have no idea myself Joe I don't know what you want from me. I want to know how you're innocently playing football and someone can run you over and then everything just carry on like nothing never happened. I'd like to have seen a little bit of the aftermath but I've a presumed Hulk just picked the thing off you and you've gone with life. Yeah pretty much so we were warming up at half time Joe as you do and I remember running out and thinking in my long career I've never seen a pitch roller out at half time. Maybe pre-game but never half time but we kind of got called to warm up and I just kind of forgot about it. I didn't say anything and the next thing I knew I was literally underneath it so yeah it was pretty it was pretty mind-blowing. Joe I mean joking aside you were you were very lucky that you weren't seriously injured. I mean it went right over your leg we were saying this last week I mean it wasn't like a little brush. Sure you had sympathy for me last week when you discussing it. Do you know what Andrews I had that I mean I'm sure the tapes if we played them back would prove this that I was incredibly sympathetic and I mean you could probably guess which member of the Monday night club maybe had slightly less sympathy but yeah but I mean it could have it all seriousness it could have done you quite a nasty injury. Oh 100% and I got very fortunate I had some MRI scans a few days ago and in four places it showed that I had some stress to the muscle to the tendon to the bones but thankfully no no structural damage only inflammation only swelling only bone bruising no lasting damage no stress fractures no ligament damage so yes I wouldn't I wouldn't consider myself lucky having been run over by a pitch roller but yeah very fortunate I was very fortunate there was no lasting damage. Look look at the two of the desperate to come in with questions don't part. Well number one right so it got one leg I've watched it again three or four times in slow motion you got your other leg out of the way had you not got the other leg out of the way that was getting broken absolutely that was mega serious. Yeah 100% I think I again I've watched it many times if I don't fall over when I did if I try to stay up or if I try to hold the pitch roller again leg is snapped I'm very fortunate that I did fall when I did it was still it was still painful still very serious it was still dangerous but thankfully no bones broken no ligaments damaged. Yeah my question is I'd imagine we're going to have a few legal debates later but where do we stand with this time Ross? Where does this stand? This one seems a little bit clearer. Yeah you know what Joe the fact that I am okay the fact that touch with there's no lasting damage I'm not really looking I'm not really in Thailand to be going through legal back back to what I've had. I'm here to enjoy my final few years Joe so if I do get back playing after the international break there's no lasting damage I'm not looking to continue to continue any legal battles and look to gain anything from it. So we've got Andross Townsend Joe Hart Pat Nevin on the Monday nightclub this evening we'll hear from Thomas Tuchel a little later on we'll talk Lionel Messi as well Joe persistently keeping going with asking Andross questions so that we delay the Manchester City Chat as long as possible. I mean there is an element before bring Joe in part of everybody's talked about it for 72 hours so there are very few things that can be said now that are slightly different we haven't heard from many former Manchester City players admittedly but it does it feels like a waiting game but equally are you surprised that it has just given you have had various roles within football that it feels like it's just been left to hang that at the moment. Exactly because it well the news seemed to have leaked out as opposed to given out so any structured way that in the either side wanted to deal with is now blown so they're reacting in the moment I mean the PR around it is dreadful from either side that's that's for a kickoff the idea of there's no not a new thing you say about it I'm not convinced about that I think there've been new things to write and say and think about this consistently and we'll keep on going because everything you turn over a rock something else crawls out here under this story and I was thinking about I wrote a piece today for the the BBC Newsletter and I was thinking say if you do kick let's say worst case scenario they get kicked out of the leaks right and you think that's impossible Glasgow Rangers down to the fourth tier of Scottish football not that long ago right for what happened with them with my chest to set you to then I mean really when you think about what we're talking do you want you do you want to hang about there you'll have certain definitely certain problems with finances when you get down there because you can't spend the money would you want to hang about can you remember that thing called super league a few years ago where a few teams are killing that weren't they and if that would raise its head head again and think well we could go and because remember nobody thought left golf was going to happen yeah yeah and that happened you know so everything thinking about a weird thought comes in your mind that and that and whilst not necessarily a couple of those scenarios Joe that Pattern has pointed out have I thought about but you you start interviewing someone I was interviewing a lawyer today about it and all of a sudden you think well what about what about that scenario or what could happen if this happens you know if Manchester City weren't in the Premier League for example then how did the meetings go on amongst Premier League clubs about what should maybe happen with City say when it comes to compensation if City aren't in that room anymore to talk I just just one scenario that came to my head when we were talking about it you as a former player do you have questions me as a former player heard my chairman speak that's what I've heard and then I've heard everyone else go down every single rabbit hole every single wormhole every single discussion I've been given free reign to say and do whatever they want about something that hasn't happened hasn't been proven so my honest opinion is I've got no reason not to trust Caldune he was delivered me good news he delivered me bad news he's been excellent with everything that he's done with Manchester City and how he's represented his company in Manchester City in terms of making and he's not just a flushing the pan I've talked about the owners before and how they do things and how they like to do things and I've got nothing but love for the club nothing but love for him nothing but respect for him so I realized it's opened up a can of worms and I realized it's opened up all those sorts of conversations and all what ifs and butts and maybes and how and who but for me like I say and if this is not just because it's Manchester City I'm the same anyway about anyone when the speculation in the air it's just speculation I know that this one has a little bit more little bit born meat to it no doubt about it but the Premier League haven't said anything it's been leaked as you said Pat it's been leaked to what's been said it's been leaked about how many charges are going to stand it's been leaked to about what the process will be I've heard nothing concrete so as much as I'm going to let people do what they want to do and I'm sure some people have fun with it some people are serious about some people are upset some people are happy but my genuine feeling as me as a previous player and somebody played in this era by the way is I'm going to have to let it play out because like I say it's all very well and good saying what if they go in this division what if they go in that division who's who's entitled to this who's going to jump in and I'm sure if that were the case that will have to happen but for me like I say someone who I trust and someone who's led me and led the club brilliantly and put them in a really really good position financially and from a footballing point of view what he said is enough for me and what he said you know I've got it in front of me the legal process and our determination and respect it means I cannot do that at the moment when he wants to put people's mind at ease so at the moment like I say it's absolutely free for all for everyone to say and do what they want and as I've said before chap as this program you know the same the sort of things all the phonons and I can't stop and I don't feel anything about anyone who has an opinion that everyone's free to do what they want but like I say I can only come on here and speak from my heart and my truth let me let me I know I was just going to read a bit of that statement that you said and just give it the thought give it the full word the Premier League process still has a long way to run this is from Calderon Amabara and an open letter really the Premier League process still has a long way to run and our confidence and intent improving the club's innocence just as strong as when this began there are so many things that I would like to be able to share with you to help you understand why we feel so confident in our position but the strict confidentiality of the legal process and our determination to respect it means I cannot do that at the moment if they appeal careful with the ifs no no no yeah no yeah no because you know all the assumption is that it despite the Premier is still not confirmed yet that they've been found guilty of the 114 in the 115 and then the assumption is that they're going to appeal it so they will so this will kick you would assume kick the cam further and further down the road are you the kind of individual which I kind of think I know the answer to this anyhow but are you the kind of individual that can can compartmentalize that then and not even worry yourself with it until a final appeal verdict yeah quite comfortably and the only worry I have is because like I say a lot of people I care about are involved in this me personally there's there's no worry for me I did what I did I lined up 11v11 and had it out on the pitch I won some games lost some games drew some games and I shook hands and I walked off got changed and got ready for the next one so there's no worry for me there's absolutely zero I I did everything I possibly could I had some brilliant people a game people that I trusted trust doing my life that I worked for when I was asked to do it for Manchester City and that's the whole point having these roles and I never had relationships with outside of the you know the management because above that is above my head I don't understand how football club works I've not sat down and done my you know a lot we're one of the degrees that a lot of the boys are doing and good for them in in running the clubs and I don't even know what the name of the title is because that is not how my head works and what what makes me tick what makes me tick or did make me tick was being out on the pitch and fighting for my team and I did that many many times in Manchester City and I you know I do it again but legally where this whole process stands you know you're asking from a former player like you say not many not many have spoken probably because they haven't been asked but I can only speak for me and I only think about this when I think about the close people I have to me who are massively affected by it when I think about myself it is what it is you know like I say I left it all out on the pitch lost drew one and here I sit happy to have a conversation with you and try and understand it as much as I possibly can but without casting judgment until someone is drawing a line under this Joe you said that not many players have spoken about it publicly have you spoken to any of your former teammates about it behind the scenes do you know I saw that there was that was a potential question for tonight and it hasn't even crossed my mind to have a chat with any of the lads it really hasn't I don't know about you and Ross but like my my brain works in the serious ways chapters as you well know but anything anything I can't affect is not going to give me an ounce of worry so I haven't I haven't even I'll I'll play golf with a few of the boys or we'll cross paths and we'll probably talk about it probably think like what have you have heard anything on the inside but I'm certainly not going to be reaching out to Caldune saying does everything all right so anything I can do you know he's he's he's the boss he's the main man he's got many people around him many people legally strategically who will be able to give him a council and be able to help him through this time because it's not going to be easy for him and I loved I loved how he spoke I loved the letter because it was that was from someone who cared about the club that wasn't the legal statement everyone listened to me it was I'm sure you've had this I'm sure you've had these conversations just to let you know I'm having him to stay calm everyone stay calm everything's in hand and when we're allowed to do it when we're legally allowed to talk about it we will do you know that a couple of things what Joe's saying there and I completely agree because I've been in the outside of it where I was running the football club and the last thing I want is my player thinking about that yeah forget about that I want you concentrate and that's what you pay to do and that's so the fact that not that many players have talked about it or want to are willing to a few constant sometimes in talking about it I absolutely not to lay back that completely not to lay back that so Joe I'm with you 100% me and and I think it's the right wave for players to be in this situation and to the point you said before about you know nothing's been proved yet you notice we've started every sentence with if I did the phone in the other night the sexual sex and my first words was there's two big letters here we need to put in I and F and that has to be considered before every single thing that we ever say about this I actually think the media have been quite good with this because they kind of went hammering tongues at this before that news leaked out couldn't it's been mentioned before but as if most of the media and understandably have been in the traps and they've been held back and held back and held back but because those words come out guilty of the charges you know and yes we know it is a leak and may not be driven it likely is it's got a certain weight that I don't think the media can I know I don't think anyone in the media can ignore it be not considered and worry about what could possibly happen it the footballing side of it I find as in from a footballers perspective I find quite interesting here because Andros you have played against Manchester City during this period that is investigated and people and I've included myself in actually these questions sometimes you know if a player missed out on Champions League qualification because they finished behind Manchester City and if Manchester City I found to have broken the rules bear in mind the incentives that can be in a player's contract they will they have missed out on money and so on and so forth so did they then look at it from a legal point of view but then I've had some players say to me yeah but a lot of what has happened has gone on or if it has happened has gone on boardroom exec business level if you've gone toe-to-toe with the 11 players on the pitch you haven't you haven't been cheated in inverter commas on the pitch it's not like City for several seasons managed to sneak on a 12th player for the whole time and and that was what this form of professional was trying to explain to me I agree and I'm I'm of a similar mindset but you have to imagine if players have got think clauses in their contract which is worth millions then you understand why these guys are coming out and saying we should get this or they should get this but I Joe mentioned it early as a player 11v11 on the pitch if man City beat us three or four years ago then the 11 players on the pitch beat us three or four years ago so I'm more of that mindset but I understand we're talking about millions here so I understand why former players are coming out and trying to question where they stand now so yeah it's understandable we go bring James Han Kasselin from five lives you're elite and and also the athletic not not because we're going to say this is going to happen to Manchester City but Serie A over the years has had the various issues of taking points off teams relegating them stripping them of titles you ventors have been in the forefront of those punishments and I suppose what the aftermath of that is and who views who was the champions if somebody is stripped of a title but James I just want to start with because Roberto Mancini's back in charge of Italy for the second time and a bit like Roger when Roger was on Spain duty he was asked about everything around Manchester City he went back to the double contract referenced isn't he he did I mean that was a question put to him by a Turkish journalist last night in Bursa and you know he said it was a leading question it was like this double contract is part of the investigation so that's why he used the right the terminology double contract but he didn't deny it and he said look this is nothing new it comes up every four or five years because you know as we've we all know this has been going on for for eight years now and he said it's a problem for the club and not for him doesn't concern him but as far as he was concerned Manchester City are not guilty so I mean that's that's Mancini's position on this you know I think for for him this is a story that goes back a long long time you know I mean he was who was sacked by Mancini in 2013 so you know with 13 years afterwards you could imagine why he was a little bit surprised no I'm not entirely surprised to be asked the question but why this why this keeps coming up I mean it does highlight how how long this has been going on what what you would say is as well just just on him finally before we look at Serie A in general and how how they've dealt with punishments is he's he's he's always been consistent with what he said hasn't he yeah absolutely I mean this story about this alleged consultancy with Al Jazeera a small club in in Abu Dhabi I mean this came out when Rui Pinto the whistleblower hacker who go access to all these documents and they were leaked to the Spiegel the Joan magazine and some other magazines it was kind of Italian supplement on a weekend called Lispresso and and they wrote up this story about how it's alleged Mancini was paid by Mancini one figure and then paid by Al Jazeera another figure so he's been challenged on this and confronted about it since that story came out in I think it was 2018 so you know I wouldn't say to him it's kind of water under the bridge because as he says it keeps coming up every few years but he certainly didn't seem concerned by it last night chapters and let's talk about punishment in Italy and when they've handed been handed down and look we're not at this day saying this is the punishment that will come Manchester City's way but obviously Juventus and Kelchopoli and that scandal they were relegated out of the top flight and they were stripped of titles we're going back 20 years aren't we to when this happened how what were the key facts then and what in the subsequent years how was it viewed with the titles being taken off them not very good I mean this is one of the most poisonous I think it is the most poisonous case in the history of Italian football I don't think it's ever been the same since to your to your first question chapters I think a lot of people misunderstand the scandal they think it's a match for six scandal but you know no referees were ever paid nothing of the sort ever happened you know this is essentially about a network of power at the top of the the game in Italy which came to focus in some respect around Juventus his former general manager I got called Luciano Moji who was banned for life after this scandal although I was at Juventus Milan the other week and he was there I still welcome at the club and I think that tells you a lot about what Juventus think about this scandal so in terms of the power and control chapters it was it was to do with yes referees but not in the way you might think it was sort of calling up the referee designator as executives of other teams did leading up to games saying who's refereeing us this week and just like you know fans up and down our country they they seem to think there's some referees that referee badly against them I mean that was the case initially like well we don't want that guy refereeing against us so please don't do that Moji's son had an agency which had about 140 coaches and players on the books which you know it would allow you maybe to it was alleged to sort of control other teams or have friendly teams and then also just being a kind of TV personality so you know as we have you know sort of players and executives who go on TV shows it would be kind of calling up the producers of those shows and say and saying what's on the agenda tonight let's not talk about that or why are you showing that decision you shouldn't be showing that decision that's that's stupid you should be putting the spotlight on this so it was all about creating an environment which I suppose gave your team the best chance of success now the the big difference with Cal Chopin and and and this case between the Pemberley and Manchester City is that this case between the Pemberley and Manchester City has lasted eight years and Ferran Soriano has just been speaking at the EFC European Football Club Summit in Copenhagen and he's and sources have been saying that he's been telling the other chairman's that it's taken eight years to get to this point there are many many more years to run in this I mean with with Cal Chopin Lee the the sporting trial of Cal Chopin was done over one summer you know the summer in which Italy won the World Cup in 2006 so there was a sporting trial and then there was a criminal trial and the sporting trial is the one that relegated the event's points deductions in the second division of points deductions against AC Milan and some other clubs Lazio Regina as well the criminal trial didn't end until 2010 and finally that second question about titles being revoked chapters I mean two were revoked 0405 and 0506 0405 was left unassigned 0506 was given to Inter and and that that is the most poisonous thing that I think ever happened in Italian football because it led particularly after the criminal trial ended it led people to look at the sporting trial and say you rust the judgment in that case it was unfair and Inter should never have been given that title the kind of reason it was given to Inter was because at UEFA neither the champion to be their top seed in the Champions League and you know you've entered to compete in the Champions League that season even though 0405 had been on a sign because yeah the season was still going on so but that that that time football's never recovered from that chapter okay let me read you some of what people have said but Alex no one's questioning the integrity of the players no one's doubting they deserve the glory in those games but those players will not be playing together in that team if these rules have been broken it's tank at the time and it stinks now and Simon on email on a similar point why is no dimension that if proved guilty city fans would never have had the aguero moment or other moments as they cheated the system to afford the best players and the best managers it's simple there can be no sympathy if proven guilty and John although I don't think we did this bit to be fair I can understand people seeing it in certain ways but he said you keep banging on about how Manchester City have done nothing wrong with actually zero evidence for that I don't think we said that I just said that we haven't actually been given confirmation everybody is reporting it but nobody has actually confirmed it was what we were trying to point out with the F point he goes on to say but seriously what about Liverpool and the other teams that have missed out on trophies and championships they did nothing wrong either if City had followed the rules as apparently they did not do those teams and the players for those teams would have achieved more how about you feel sorry for them is that and if Joe or do you understand the feeling sorry for them like like I say chap is I'm obviously being I know I'm being careful more words but it's all right to be because I'm representing here and I'm representing from a point of view that I'm not here to tell anyone they're wrong all those opinions that you said there they're perfectly within their reason and within their rights to feel that way and anyone who will dig deep like I'm sore James is the kind of person that would go real deep into legalities and have an opinion and some people just see things and just throw throw things at it no one's right no one's wrong at the moment because like I say nothing's nothing's finished nothing's final and all those points that you make you can make a million them about a million things a day you know and I'm not going to start throwing things around because it's absolutely pointless but like I say I can only come on here and talk from my point of view from my perspective of what's going on and with the people that I've worked with and the people that I showed his arm so it's when it came to being on the pitch or off the pitch with the little bit of communication I had with the hierarchy because as I say that's not how I that's now I live my football career like is it all these guys writing in and people are angry no doubt emotions run high and like I say I don't know what place you're in where you're reading it from or what sort of feelings you've got towards it in terms of it has your club been wronged or how you how your club could have benefited if this is the case or sorry not benefit if it if it was proven but I just can't I just can't sit on here and talk from any other perspective other than what what the main man said for me and how I feel about the football club how did Katzai become one of the biggest girl groups in the world I must my Khaled and I'm Tristan Redmond and together we host the global story podcast from the BBC in this episode we give you everything there is to know about Katzai they've gone from their first EP to a sold out US tour in just two years but has their stratospheric success revealed a darker side of the K-pop model search for the global story on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts in the early 90s women's tennis was having a moment this is a match that will live in the memory of all of us so he had been too dominant suddenly along came Monica Sellers she hit the bar big she hit two hands off both sides and just when tennis fans were looking their lips at the prospect of a rivalry that would push the sport to new heights one of the strangest and most shocking sporting crimes brought it to a grinding halt. Monica Sellers has been stabbed by a spectator this man stole her story from her sports strangest crimes tennis's darkest hour listen on BBC sounds Scotland against Switzerland is in the nation's league tomorrow night on sports extra England are in Prague taking on Czech Republic on five live Thomas Tuchel now on whether he thinks after the defeat to Spain England have to win tomorrow. We did a review on Sunday morning and take the review actually as a preview at the same time because we had a lot of positives to take from from the from the Spain game and just want to reproduce a lot of it tomorrow here. Are you we've had a lot to talk about how many changes you might make over these matches what's the current thought? Hopefully not too many I'm my mind is not on on on changes my mind is on on winning and on on giving the players the trust and I saw good performance of performance wise there's no need to change ideally we would start with the same team but as you saw two players are already in doubt and some had a really really high individual physical outputs so we will take care about these players we'll take it into consideration but it's not very likely that we will see six seven eight it seems to have been a big point of discussion yet surely normally players would be playing Saturday Tuesday Saturday Tuesday so it's no different with England exactly I see no difference so why would we if if this would be a Premier League Champions League week players would play Saturday Tuesday so why would they not do it with us? With the goalkeeper the message coming out on Saturday was that Jordan Pickford remains England's number one that's correct yeah yeah if you want to if you need to give the status a name yeah of course there's no there is no need to to to take the shirt away from him at the moment but there's I think a little bit of a need of of a competition because he plays he blades for so many years and James Rufford had a good start to the season Dean Henderson had a good start to the season Dino got the match against France we need just to see also in this position not only with outfield players we need to see what the players are capable of and and for that we have to see them under stress and under pressure and that's why Ruff gets two matches and then pick us as back and go and it it seems possible that you have to you might have to make changes at the back yeah of course two players are already in doubt and some players have big big physical outputs so we will have a late review later in the evening and then decide maybe tomorrow morning the final positions obviously you set out to win every match that you play having lost the first one at Wembley are you you know realistically are you thinking to achieve the target that you want in this group to win the group you might well have to win the next four and then see where you are would be ideal to win the next four but wider next four the next five and so it's six matches we lost the first one cannot change it we will try everything to to win tomorrow just got the question if it's a must win it's it's not yet it's too early for that but yeah ideally we we put three three points on our record it's just like it's league one and nations league it will not be easy we have to just need to respect the opponent and and the quality and the stadium and and and the occasion and then anything can happen in football you just don't know we cannot now come in say it's it's only a win and I don't know maybe maybe we have early yellow red card early red card or whatever so so you just need to need to adapt what's coming so we're here to win we will try everything whatever happens good luck Thomas thank you Thomas SQL on the defeat to Spain and what England I have to do to win tomorrow and also what's going on with the goalkeeping situation the thing is I wonder andross when international breaks are longer and you have four games and these aren't qualifiers in different people have different opinions on the nations league I suppose it does allow managers to experiment more and then opens up more questions I think Thomas too cool needs to see 25 26 players how they can fare against the best it's all well and good doing it against no disrespect to check the public but he needs to see them against Spain he needs to see how James Trafford can handle playing out from the back for example against Spain and being the extra man for England in the initial build up phase so I think that was an important one for Thomas too cool to see James Trafford potentially for moving forward into that into the next year as can he be that number one can he take over from Jordan Pickford Pat what are your thoughts again being Scottish just a bit jealous so I have a lot of players that are very very good and there's a lot of naval cases and the fact you just get beat by you know and by a brilliant side with some absolutely brilliant players as well and yeah you can see where there were some weaknesses I mean I obviously I was in Slovenia so I didn't see the whole game so I watched the highlights as much as I possibly could but you look through the squad in England I've got there and you can actually overlook over think it sometimes I mean it said defeat against the spanish everybody in the world's getting beat with inches now and you look at all the other games England have played mean the last game against the french okay a six four weird game never seen like it again but you know and they didn't play their full team the first half but to be honest England had a pretty good world cup for that but I suppose England fan would say well we need to do that make that final step we need to get there we need to win something I understand that that's why you brought Thomas too cool in I kind of like the way his reaction is he's trying to calm everything down with the means chat seems he seems like he's talking to your mate down the pub doesn't he? yeah when he was having that chat there as if to say look people don't panic this is not the time to do it we're still learning the things we're still getting the things together here for the next group that's going to go forward so I must have had I'm not how I wouldn't join the panic stations quite yet just because you know I know and that's the bit I find a bit odd and Ross at the moment is even in the build up to this there became this massive thing about footballing culture and I know anti Gordon was told to you know spoke about it beforehand and Thomas Tuchel has talked about England DNA about controlling possession and that isn't what England do compared to Spain it's almost as if there's been this real kind of soul searching and deep dive off the back of one the last half hour against Argentina and two the next opponents being Spain I think they always has to be in this country for as long as I can remember they always has to be like a post-mortem after a major tournament defeat and how how can England get to the next level but I think on this occasion there's no level to get to we're there we we're five minutes away from a World Cup final two years ago we're in a euros final we're there it's just that it's just now it's just that the final bit that you cannot teach is the final bit that it took arsenal years to try and get over the line that's just a final bit now there's no how do we produce this play how do we produce that play how do we play like Spain because we match Spain for most of that game for the first 65 minutes we match Spain we press Spain all over the pitch it was amazing to see how aggressive we were cons our gay he really tracking those Spanish number 10s all the way every time they try to drop off we were there and we forced him into so many turnovers it's just that last bit it's just that last bit getting over the line in the major tournaments not can we beat Spain in a nation's league game in September I mean did you feel this when you when you were in England comes what is this obsession with and I think Anthony Gordon said it didn't he we can't keep looking at other countries are trying to be like them we have our own strengths which they don't have this constant yeah and and I agree with that and I I can't bring up arsenal Michaela Tetra he didn't go from Man City to Arsenal I think I'm going to copy exactly what Man City do to to a tee because you're never going to copy Man City and beat Man City at what they do because they're the best at it what he did he took parts of what he learned from Pep Guardiola and he took arsenal to the next level through set pieces can I be more aggressive can I get the ball in the box can I focus more on set pieces and that's why they won the title because the set pieces gave them the edge over Man City as opposed to their tiki takas style of play and I look at England England never gonna go toe to toe with Spain and out possession them and tiki taker them get it through the lines yes we will do that but our strengths are pace we are quicker than Spain we are stronger than Spain we are more fitter than Spain so after take parts of what Spain do but also apply ourselves we got Rashford we got Gordon we got Saka we got so many quick aggressive players who showed the other night how how effective they can be so we just stop getting so fixated on what Spain do and focus on what we can do they're also a couple of interesting things on on the Spanish culture and and how they built up the team that they did and we had a program on it on Wednesday night when Rafa Benitez and Guillain Balagay amongst others would guess on it we also say is a Aspel Aquettor on it as well he talked about how they found their identity at a young age that feeling I had since I started age 15 in just teams we were all coming from different cultures of playing football and you know to the senior team you have when you come to the national team I think you put everything aside and yes you know you play big games against friends that but in the national team you share a lot of time together but then when you have had the competitive league or Cup game then you forget about about that and you are together in the national team fighting for the same target so do you think it you therefore feel it is important that that was put in from such an early age from when you were there with under 15 yeah it's very important and and I think that mix of cultures of way of learning football brings a lot of different qualities to the team and I think at the end the team benefits from from that and and you know normally let's say up north we are more defenders we are more like tough less skillful you know the more in the south you have this talented player they can triple they can do different stuff so all together is a great mix what I found quite interesting that as well Pat on on the whole culture side was people people will look at football and football skills and we talked about it earlier but actually one of the things that came through in that was a mentality and a belief and actually how important the players from the basque region were in their mentality and in fact it went even back to when Barcelona when Kroif was at Barcelona and he wanted a couple of basque players to be at Barcelona because of their mentality and attitude yeah I mean that the whole history of what Kroif did I think history of football comes basically from Kroif from 1970 he used to follow the line and it goes straight to Pep Guardiola and everything in between it that's been successful was generally between in that line but within it all we always changed it always adapted they always had to get other bits that were missing and if they had to look to the north of the country to the south of the country finally obviously I watched as play quarter for years and years and years didn't it Chelsea and he was such a British player no it's so brilliant he was unbelievably British player you know I'm dressed you will know this really well I used to do this thing where I'd watch certain defenders and one of the the best thing I could do for his playing against me was get low really low see if you ever get a chance going just google a picture of him playing football he's so low he's crouching he's like he looks like a crab because he can move because he's like an old-skilled um let's get Kenny Sanson he's very best that type of brilliant brilliant defenders who's very British so what they've done is we get the best of all worlds they can get that's what he's basically saying yeah we'll pick the the ones from that part the ones from this part there isn't necessarily a Spanish way no you'll get the best of everything yeah and use it all and also what they have Joe is they have a system so one of the things that they did down I'm not you know this happened back in the day I'm not saying it happens now but they made sure that those players moved through the age groups from under 14 under 15 all the way through so that actual club rivalries which are obviously huge and Spain with Barcelona around Madrid never became a thing because you're still in that age group as you progress through each level and then into the senior team yeah and obviously they had that that brilliant period didn't they were all came to fruition because Spanish football struggled for so long and you know Pat talked about the kind of David Silver's of this world and that team that took over and it really feels like they're in that stage again because they've had to regroup of course they've had to regroup because they had those brilliant moments but they're shows they've got real good brains behind the scenes and they've got people who know a way and know a way that they can buy into as a Spanish footballer and I think just as an identity as an Englishman as an English team at the moment it's it's not it's not easy and it's something that can be discussed but I think it's not easy because we've got so much talent we've got so many different players that can do so many different things on such a strong level so yeah it's not easy as proven but we're getting close we're getting so close you know semi-finals finals it's coming you talked about being in Slovenia for Scotland's goalless draw pat how would you define where Scotland are at under their new man very intriguing indeed so a lot of changes since David Clarke left it's going to be a different outlook style Steve is very secure very safe the way played really intelligent when he made changes they were clever and they got Scotland to three out of the four championships that he went for which we hadn't done for generations so brilliant him however the fans would do something wee bit more front-footed and we watched the first half and think is this it it was terrible it was awful and so disjointed the real mess saying half you seen a little bit of that and what was intriguing it was there was a lot of different new players there and there's nothing more exciting about than you know seeing a team that's adapting and you I don't know a lot they put I mean I've watched a lot of football the Scottish football and Scottish players I had never seen Robbie you were playing and he was playing up front for Scotland and international game Stephen Welsh had seen before but hadn't played much Mick Barney back in the squad for quite had been out for quite some time but it was the fact that they were in the second half they became incredibly positive they played constantly in front of it they got a no-no away in Slovenia which sounds of rubbish right but that's a fact it's great fun I loved it and getting the best at the likes of Ben Ganondorf you know when he came on it was really good and maybe more than anyone else Billy Gellmar moved on in a different position and I kind of closer to an eight or a ten position instead of six and honestly it's a joy to watch you really watch fantastic so there's a little bits to get excited about but it was Slovenia and he went very good Pat but just on that I think that's a real positive as a new manager you know it's all very well and good training sessions and going into the game with the positive conversations and mindset but then when the whistle goes you can kind of go to type and little maybe that kind of mentality of it's a state tight it's important you get a result on the road but I think the positive from what you've said there is that's a manager doubling down a half time very much like under my experience with with with Angeposticoglu very early on in his reign it was very much we did all these expressive and expansive things on the training field but when the game came we're all of our kind of game management came into it a little bit of caution away from home and then the amount of half it only took two or three it really took two or three going are you winding me up we've just done a week's training for you to go out and do that do what you want to do on the pitch this is what we train this is what you believe in and trust me I'm gonna back you that's that message that I'm here and there so that's a positive at least in terms of a mindset of how he wants his scotch team to play well class it there was a moment in the game it was a 10 minutes and and we knew that Slovenians played a very specific system and they always played two up front you know a very brave two up front and then a 10 minutes and you're realizing no they're not they're playing three really high up top who didn't go back and you're playing a three at the back so what do you do then do you say to one of your wing backs oh come back in cover just as you're saying Joe just as you're saying 90% of managers away from home international game probably your first game as well they bought it don't they they're just going no no let's be a bit secure here none of that at all absolutely none of that at all he said fair enough you'll leave him three up we'll be free back let's we'll go for you we'll have a go we'll slug it we'll slug it out and whether it was clever and because because and you ask a Celtic fan they'll tell you when that to you to other answers to called when you ask a sports fan they'll tell you something else right exactly totally the opposite right and that's why although I was I was interested and excited and enjoyed it in Scotland get 17 shots to three away from home which was great we're playing against Switzerland tomorrow night that's going to be much much harder if you and there are certain teams if you go three V3 at the back in your playing against soccer you know Cain and Anthony Gordon I don't care how brave you are that's just don't do that so I'm intrigued to see where it goes after this can I just breathe back to what you talk about Robbie you're then and and having not really and you watch a lot of football and having not really seen him and I'm just sort of looking through his career here and you know a couple of games for Rangers in the early part of this decade and then he's you know gone to Belgium and Sweden he's at Sevilla now he was in the age group around the under 19s would you have even been mentioned before Pocken only took over he was known about and I talk to Clark here about this he was known about but at that point in time he hadn't had the big move to Sevilla remember that it had a good season in an average league you know but if he was going to bring someone like that and he's going to leave one of the players out there he got them there in the first place and I thought he felt that was a difficult thing there's some people would have done that some managers would have done that but Stevie Clark had a group together and his team spirit and he was very very loyal to those people but when you've got new manager world cups over you've got a reset you've got a restart you've got a chance to look at things again so I was delighted to see you're playing yours got a really interesting background that you mentioned there he left Rangers I don't think Rangers left him right he left Rangers as a as a youngster and thought I'm not going to get game time there's not a pathway from me here that's big that's brave to go and do that he wanted games and this gets back to what we're talking about the build we've got a real problem Scotland all the best young players end up at some of the biggest clubs right there's no pathway through because the biggest clubs are going to go in by top players or not top players but very decent players and finished articles from elsewhere and this is no different again back to my career as a kid I was with Celtics a kid at 16 no way through right and I stopped now and studied and things like that but then I got partying football with Clyde see by the time I was 20 I've done a hundred games for a Scott and Scott football and a hundred games in English football see the kids that I left behind gone they would have had to meet up apparently they weren't now because I'd go and play football and this is what the boy you're done and this is what Scotland players this is a problem we need effects I just want to end on Messi who's final international game for Argentina is on October the 6th against Benin I'll give you the stats 207 caps 125 goals and 60 assists most World Cup appearances in history 34 most match wins at a World Cup 23 only player to have started three World Cup finals 2014 2022 2026 but with Pat and Ross and Joe what I'm interested in if if you were 20 and the great Argentinian playmaker hope of the coming 10 years would you take the number 10 shirt where Messi retires Joe I think that's the case where he's going to have to give the shirt to someone like in a sort of ceremonial yet I think he's going to have to give the nod to the next because it might not be every game the next five people that wear it they're going to have to go through him I really did and that might that might be extreme but unless you've got someone with ridiculous confidence you're going to need the nod from the main man I think you are actually it's a bit and sometimes that happens quite often in the NFL and Ross if someone joins a team that has a legendary shirt number if that shirt number hasn't been retard they quite often ask the the legendary player that warn it that's warn it if they're okay to wear admittedly there are probably more choices you know there but it has because it does become a big thing doesn't it? No it does and Joe's hit the nail on the head it you have to come from Messi he can't just like I said on this is a marathon that comes through like a Messi like a marathon there's one straight off the bat again I think it has to come from Messi has to be Messi's chosen one as a post or someone said no I want the number 10 so yeah it'd be interesting to see who does pick that out what I quite like part and with all due respect to those that came in between it's Maradona's 10 and Messi's 10 there were plenty who wore it in between oh yeah they're going to be the number 10s I don't think I built a lack of people that wanted it you would love to be the one that actually had it on your bike yeah it's a heavy old shirt but you would still want it and reality what you should do get something totally different put somebody totally different give it to himself and Anders give it to somebody who's not going to be that player and just say right you're a different player it's a different thing don't put any pressure on anybody and it could go yes as Messi's shirt but it's also as you say it's Maradona's shirt as well so you know take the pressure off a few possible give it a full back that's what to do give it a right you can't have an Argentinian right back wearing 10 you just cannot carry it but that's the point if you want to put loads and loads of pressure on it nobody wants pressure then don't give somebody who doesn't give it to somebody pressure either he doesn't want to be will play worse with it then give it to somebody it's obviously not almost a ridiculous thing I know I haven't said that you won't say else in many shirts well I know you won't really enough and have you said that even though it is his farewell game the World Cup Joe feels like it feels like that was his farewell doesn't it probably doesn't have Argentinians or Messi because they have this coming up but for the wider football and community the World Cup was the farewell yeah I think so but I too totally get it and we have in these conversations it seems like you know it's not just the end of some number 10's career this is this is the number 10 of certainly my generation in how he's taken on world football and how he's played the game so I think you've just got to understand sometimes that when it comes to a play like you know you talk about Maradona I can't talk about Maradona I don't know the Maradona that you guys are talking about there but I understand how very much was you and you very much were me in how I'm talking about Messi so I get it but I just think the way that he's leaving the game he's not been asked to leave he's leaving it on his own accord gracefully having thrown down at the World Cup in front of all of our eyes and start I think if anyone deserves a little home homecoming and a little stand-in innovation it's the main way right we will end it there Joe Pat and Ross thank you very much for being on the Monday night club this evening so tomorrow you do get the Scotland and the England game Scotland are on sports extra England with John Murray and Paul Roberts to take me on check here then that will be on Five Life this is the football story of the century it's pandemonium it's sex to see it's an authoritarian regime for the past 15 years English football has been dominated by Manchester City they are champions again but not only that they've won it four years running and no one's done that ever then the Premier League dropped a bombshell the Premier League has charged Manchester City with more than a hundred breaches of its financial rules following a four-year investigation somebody turned up at the Hetty-Head stadium and effectively served papers here in depth analysis and explanation on football on trial the Manchester City charges listen on BBC sounds how did Katzai become one of the biggest girl groups in the world I must my Khaled and I'm Tristan Redmond and together we host the global story podcast from the BBC in this episode we give you everything there is to know about Katzai they've gone from their first EP to a sold out US tour in just two years but has their stratospheric success revealed a darker side of the K-pop model search for the global story on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts