Beyond Atlanta: Thomas Tuchel, Harry Kane, and England's Search for Tactical Conviction

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. What's it like to take on the world on your own and win? I'm Lee James, and on more than the score, I'm speaking to cyclist Sigrid Halsett and Steve Cummings about the art of riding alone, and what it takes to get the better of the sport's biggest names. Search for more than the score wherever you get to your BBC podcast. This is the football daily podcast with John Murray and Ian Dennis. Hello, I'm John Murray, and this is a five-life football daily to look ahead to. I think by common agreement, the most attractive match of this international window. England, World Cup semi-finalists this summer against the new champion Spain at Wembley Stadium 69 days on from us witnessing Rodri lifting the trophy in New Jersey. And I say we, because Ian Dennis is here alongside me in the sunshine here at Tottenham's training ground. On this podcast, we'll also hear from Thomas Tuchel and Harry Kane, manager and captain. Five live will be the place to listen to the match commentary with us from 745 Saturday night with our England regular Paul Robinson and Matthew Upsen as part of the commentary team. And also look out on BBC sounds for a special football daily reacting to today's Manchester City news. But Ian, this is the point, I think, where England move on from the recriminations of that much talked about last half hour or so of the semi-final in Atlanta when England's hopes of winning the World Cup ended. Yeah, and I thought it was interesting that the FA put the England captain Harry Kane up to dead with that in mind because only a couple of days ago, he'd spoken to the written press. And the fact that he was then speaking once more on the eve of this game, I thought that that was the FA's way of saying, okay, he's done his reflections and that particularly that half an hour against Argentina that there's been, we've all been referring to, whereas this is now very much looking to the future. He echoed very similar to what Thomas Tuchel has said that this isn't a new beginning, the building on the foundations, but looking then ahead to the nation's league campaign. And as you say, what a game to focus on, that against Spain, who are undefeated in 38 matches. So it's going to be a real test for England. Yeah, only defeat in that time penalty shootout in the last final of this competition against Portugal. And Ian, there's been a lot of talk hasn't had this week about the five withdrawals from the squad, including Cole Palmer. Obviously, Thomas Tuchel talking about that, publicly today for the first time. He said that they trust the players, and you have to believe the fact that they've all withdrawn from injury. He said that those players know that if they miss an international window, then the pressure is on to get back into the squad. A lot of the doors always open. He said there's no mistrust or threat of consequences. And he said that in his experience, you know, the opposite is true. It's not that there are players who don't want to be here. He says every England qualifier player wants to be here. And on Cole Palmer, just for the record, he has said Cole Palmer is currently playing with discomfort and pain in his groin. And he said his understanding is that Cole Palmer cannot perform at the highest level. He said they are not managing a load. And that is the situation with Cole Palmer, according to Thomas Tuchel. Well, I mean, you've spoken to Thomas Tuchel, and you were in his press conference whilst I was with Harry Kane. And I think sometimes you can read the headline where Tuchel had said he misses too many tournaments. And you're thinking, oh, blind me. But then there was context to that, wasn't there? Because of his, he's actually saying it is genuine. It's not, he's not missing tournaments because of his, his lack of commitment to England. There is a genuine reason as to why Cole Palmer is not here. Correct. Also, Trent Alexander Arnold, with those withdrawals, Livramento, we know the other right backs who are not part of this squad. We will hear from Thomas Tuchel on this in a moment. But I think it's a fascinating point about whether Trent Alexander Arnold will start this match. Well, when we did the commentators view podcast, I think the two of us, we had slightly different views on this because I think that Alexander Arnold won't start because I'm going off what Tuchel had said when he named his squad announcement that it's one thing to get nominated in his words. It's another thing then to earn your place to actually then play the actual game. And he talked then about the trust and responsibility of the players who served him well for the majority of that tournament in the summer. Now, obviously, with the withdrawals, there's 15 of this squad who did go to the United States and the nine, including Trent Alexander Arnold, who are now bringing what he hopes is the new energy. But on that basis, that's why I don't think Alexander Arnold will start the first game. You would think playing four times in the space of 11 days, there is going to be an opportunity, but I sense that you thought that Alexander Arnold would start. Yeah, but as we'll hear from Thomas Tuchel shortly, I think he has given us quite a clear indication that in fact, it will be Jarel Quanzer. Anyway, so let's hear from him. Thomas Tuchel, the England manager, who I asked when you take everything into consideration, if England's Spain is the match that he needs now or the match he doesn't need? I think we need because it just gets you out of your comfort zone straight away. We had a long tournament. Everyone acknowledges it. It was difficult, it was hard, like playing an altitude red card and then in the heat and being together, actually being the first team in one of the first teams being in the US and staying all the way. So, to be now in another long international break and for the first time in a long two and a half weeks break is very demanding, but if you want to achieve something in sports, if you want to reach the next level of performance which we all want to do, you need to get out of your comfort zone. If you play then in a new competition straight away against the reigning world champions, that's exactly what brings you out of it and what brings hopefully the very best out of us because we need a complete performance in order to be Spain. Do you think you have a greater confidence that you will get that performance from the training field into the match situation in a way that kept frustrating you at the workable? Yeah, I was like, I said it after the Norway game and because I see it came from a good place, it came from a place of being hugely impressed by the way by the quality and the commitment in training being impressed by the climpses that we showed the second half against the second half against Graysha, 22 minutes against Congo after the last water break. Like I had evidence, I know I still have evidence, I know what this group is capable of doing, so we are looking, we are looking for this, maybe this is the task and to translate the potential that we have into a 90 minutes match, is it possible against Spain? I don't know, we will try, they are full of quality, they are full of winning mentality and they are full of confidence, so it is the most difficult one at the moment in World Football but that's the bar that we compete against and I think it's for sure a good learning no matter what. Of the players you've got in this squad, is it better called Girel Kwonzer, the man in possession when we're talking about right back? And I know he's been playing there this season for Leverkusen as well. Yeah, maybe he starts from a 51% position into this competition with Trent because he was at the World Cup, he was good at the World Cup and he plays regularly now on the position and he's competing with this desire to keep his shirt and Trent is competing and training to take it away get some minutes and press us and there are four matches in a short period of time, so they are competing for this spot and Girel is in a good place and had some very good sessions the last days. Are you curious to see what the atmosphere will be like? What the crowd will be like at Wembley? Yeah, I'm curious because I feel a lot of excitement towards the team, I feel a lot of excitement from our fans towards the team and towards the match. We have only 15 players with us who were with us in the US, we have nine players with us who were not there, so I hope they also bring the same level of commitment and we can show the same spirit and energy that took us through the tournament in the US and hopefully get this thing going because it's an advantage that we should absolutely try to try to maximize playing in Wembley must become an advantage for us. Yeah, because you've had a bit of fun with them over the course of the time that you've been a child, but it's going to play. Yeah, you did, but it would be so important, won't it? When it comes to the tournament, on home ground at Wembley, in matches like this. And I just want to make this very, very clear. I am 100% convinced that when it comes to the tournament and comes to our home tournament that we will have the advantage from our fans, because I experienced it now in the US and I know and have an idea how difficult it was for our fans to get there, to stay there and to be there and still they were and we created. And they created some outstanding moments together with our team, so I know what it can be like and I'm not shy to say that makes a difference because it is just like this. I was complaining in our match against Wales because we were three in a lap after 15 minutes and the atmosphere was not on that level to push the team and so I said it, I got a lot of stick for it. I totally get it. So let's see what it will be tomorrow. I'm sure we will have fantastic support and decisive support in the Euros and we need it. We need it. It would be silly to say that we don't need it. Why wouldn't we use it and why wouldn't we maximize it? This is the football story of the century. It's pandemonium, it's ecstasy. It's an authoritarian regime. For the past 15 years English football has been dominated by Manchester City. They are champions again, but not only that, they won it four years running and no one's done that ever. Then the Premier League dropped a bombshell. The Premier League has charged Manchester City with more than a hundred breaches of its financial rules following a four-year investigation. Somebody turned up at the Hetty-Head stadium and effectively served papers. Hear the in-depth analysis and explanation with football on trial, the Manchester City charges. Listen on BBC Sounds. This is the football daily podcast with John Murray and Ian Dennis. So there we are, Thomas Tuchel, the England manager, Ian Dennis, with me. I think one of the things we're going to be watching, listening out for at Wembley Stadium, is how the crowd does react to Thomas Tuchel after what he said on the squad announcement day, about how 99% of people, when they talk to him, talk about DR Congo, talk about Mexico, and not about his substitutions against Argentina, whereas it's probably true that the other side of that can be also correct in that 99% of people probably also want to know more about those substitutions. Yeah. He used the word curious with you, didn't he, when you asked him about the crowd? Well, I said, will you be curious to see what the crowd is like? Yeah. And then he did say, yes, I will be curious. I mean, I'm intrigued. I do think that I'm trying to think of the approach of England as well, that I think I wonder how that will affect the crowd, because if England are on the back foot, I think the crowd could get frustrated. I'm not thinking that they can go there and play with a handbrake off as they did against France in the third fourth place, playoff against France in Miami, but if they did have a little bit more of a front footed approach, then I think the crowd will go with them. So I think, depending on the approach of England, I think that will set the tone for how the crowd respond. Right. Let's hear from Harry Kane then, the England captain, who you've been talking to. Yeah, and I basically said to him that he talked early in the week as we'd mentioned to the written press where he talked about the hurt and the pain of losing that World Cup semi-final to Argentina. So I didn't necessarily want to go over that, but I did want to hear the England captain's thoughts on the criticism that Thomas Tuchel has received. Yeah, I think it's tough to see. I think whenever your leader, your boss is under fire, it's never nice, I think, as a player, as a captain, ultimately, we know it comes with the job, we know it comes with the territory, he would have known that signing up for the job, that's just part and part of being in the manager. If you don't get over the line, if you don't win, there's always going to be criticism of, yeah, the boss or the players or whoever it may come down to. But I think he's wrecked the world to it. He's spoken, honestly, openly, as we all have, I think, all the players, you know, it was a tough one to take, and I think there was definitely things that areas that we can improve. From the whole summer, it's easy just to think about Argentina, but I think the whole summer in general, there's things we can improve, a lot of things we've done well as well, and positives that we need to continue. But ultimately, it is part of the job when you're playing for England or managing England at the highest level in the World Cup, you're going to be under pressure and that's just a reality of it. When you say areas to improve, what are those areas? I think still performance-wise, like playing, I think we have a certain level that we reach, maybe in qualification or in training, and we haven't quite translated that into games. We have a lot of really good traits that get as far entourment, which is personality and character, to-giveness, mentality, quality as well. But I don't think, when we look back over the summer, I don't think there was a 4-90 minutes performance that we could say, that was the performance. I spoke a little bit before, the Costa Rica game, just before the tournament, I thought it was our level of just with the ball, without the ball, intensity. A lot of our strengths were showcasing in that game, but of course, it's easy to sit and done. You're playing against the best nations on the bigger stage, under the highest pressure, and the good thing is that we've got a lot of winning traits that get us to where we've got to, I think. The next step for us is just to be able to consistently play better, especially in the bigger matches against the better teams, because we definitely have the capabilities of doing it, but you still need to go out there and show that, and I think this nation's league campaign now is a good opportunity for us to play some big nations again, and hopefully put in some better performances. I spoke to Bacayasaka the other day, and he said he believes that England are close to gaining success. I would imagine you would share that belief, but what is that missing ingredient then to get England over the line? Yeah, I think it's just in those biggest moments, you know, still being ourselves. I think the Argentino game was so hard to take, because I think we had a mindset of going to win, going to win the tournament, and winning in our way, in our style, and if we lose, trying to do that, then we'll take it. But the Argentino game was maybe the first game, we tried not to lose the last 40 minutes, and we ended up losing anyway, it just stems even more. So again, when you're under the pressure, when you're under the lights, it's making good decisions in those moments, but always I think for us now is the mentality to go for the win. I've experienced it by a minute, for example, and you don't fear anyone, you go and be yourself, and if a team beats you, you shake the hand after and say, well done, but you know, you have an identity that you keep throughout, and I think with England now, that's where we need to look, you know, we're very close, we've been very close, but ultimately, so really, we don't need to fear anyone, we just need to be ourselves in the biggest moments, and hopefully get over the line. For memories of the nation's league with the win away in Spain, and also your goal at Wembley was a cracking atmosphere against Croatia, that particular tournament came on the back of another defeat in a World Cup semi-final. So I just wonder how important is this nation's league team and the rest of the players? Yeah, I think it is important, because it's not a new beginning, it's a continuation of, you know, Thomas's reign and us as a squad, and what we're trying to achieve, and I think if we can, you know, get a good win tomorrow and have a good group stage, get qualified through the group, why not allow us to then play bigger games next year and against the best teams, but also just gives us momentum, you know, there was a lot of good things in the summer, and even being in France towards the end, although it weren't the most competitive match, it still were a big game, and we played it extremely well. So yeah, it's just to continue those feelings, I think, over the World Cup and the pre-games, you know, I think we, what do we have, 10 games or so on it, and we won eight through one last one, so, you know, if you're at club level now, it's a fantastic record to have, but at international, we know it doesn't work like that, so it's about continue those, if we can get some good wins over this next period, I think it'll wort up leading into the year ahead. Talking of records, you've started the season very well again, 152 goals in 154 appearances at Bayern, is there the best you've ever been in your career in terms of where you're at? Yeah, 100%. I spoke about it over the last year or so, but I think the stats speak for themselves, but also just the performances in how I'm playing, how I'm feeling, I think, physically, just in the best shape I've ever been mentally, just whether it's on the pitch, off the pitch, just really happy, really going into every game, feeling like, you know, I've got a chance of scoring or getting on the ball and helping the team, and I think just enjoying it, you know, I'm playing with a smile on my face, I love every match I play, every time I'm on the pitch, and I think you're seeing that in the performances, so right now it's about just extracting that for as long as possible, and still trying to find little ways to improve, and keep pushing the level, and like last year was incredible, and my best season for short, individually, and as a team, and now it's about trying to, you know, go even one step further and see if I can do more individually and with the team as well. We spoke a number of years ago, I don't remember you're saying that you wanted to emulate Messian Ronaldo, do you think with those numbers that you're at that level now? I wouldn't say I'm on their level, I think Messian Ronaldo were two of the greatest ever players to play the game, I think I've been able to do it for the last couple of years, and be on a similar level in terms of goals and things like that, obviously, they've won the biggest trophy, they've done it for 10, 15 years, longer, and still going now, so I wouldn't put myself on their level, and I think I'm a completely different player to both of them, and many other players out there, so yeah, I always try and compare myself to my best version or my best season, and right now I'm feeling as good as ever, but to reach those two, I don't think it's something I'm thinking about. The next 11 days, you could equal Peter Shelton's record of 125 caps, October the 26th, hopefully you'll be named as the Ballandor winner, have you thought how special it could all be? No, of course it could be amazing, I mean, first of all, hopefully, managed to play the four games this camp and equal the record, an incredible record to reach without a doubt, would be an extremely proud moment for me, and then that would hopefully lead into November and being able to break it in between that, like you said, there is a Ballandor to, yeah, okay, I would be incredible to win, you know, it's the biggest individual prize there, there is, and yeah, like I touched on a bit earlier, it was my best season, so far in my career, and I achieved a lot with both England and with Bayern Munich, so yeah, we'll have to wait and see if there's the possibility of it being a really special couple of months without a doubt, but as we know, in life in football, it doesn't always pan out the way you want, so you have to be prepared for anything and see what happens. I know you're too modest, but then you would be with Ronaldo and Messi. Yeah, I mean, they've won it seven times and five times, that's what I mean, there's still a long way to go until I can be putting a conversation with those two, but it would be a step in the right direction. Well, we wish you well. Thank you very much. So that was my conversation with Harry Kane, modest as ever, insane numbers that he's produced at Bayern Munich, but if he was to win the ball and door on the 26th of October, and I joked with him there that all of a sudden he would be then on a level with Messi and Ronaldo, but that would be some achievement, wouldn't it, for him? But I think in the season that he had, I'm not sure we talked about it enough, the fact that last season he's called 73 goals for club and country, which is astonishing, but I think, you know, he's up against stiff opposition, you know, Messi will obviously be, we'll have a lot of support. And I think Kaviček, Kvarytskalije, if you're talking about exciting footballers, footballers you want to watch, he's very close to the top of the tree at the moment. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting, is that what you think that there's been a number of reports that I've seen about who's going to replace Harry Kane, but it'll be 34 by the time Euro 2028 comes around. I can still see him leading England's line if he wants to because his desire levels the way looks after himself. If he's continuing to score goals at Bayern Munich, it's imminent, there's going to sign a new contract with the German team as well. So he's going to continue to play at the top level. So I can't see anybody usurping Harry Kane as England's number nine, for at least the next 18 months, two years and beyond. As for the Spain team, it's going to be very similar, isn't it, to the team that actually we witnessed win the World Cup in New Jersey, but let's say 69 days ago. Yeah. I was struck by what Thomas Tuchel said to you that he said that he felt that France were the best team in the World Cup. I disagree with that. I think Spain were the best team at the World Cup and not only I think they proved that by winning it, but in terms of how they defended, they restricted opponents to few shots on target during the whole tournament. So I actually think that yes England beat France in the third fourth place playoff but Kawasaki has already said that was when the pressure was off. We just went out there and just went to enjoy it. There will be pressure on England at Wembley. They've got to, they've got to get off to a positive start, the top two qualify for the quarterfinals in this nation's league group. So I think that there won't be that ability to be as carefree as they were against France. Well, Rodry, the World Cup winning captain, is due to speak at Wembley late on Friday night. So look out for the quotes from that on the BBC Sport website from the former Manchester City midfielders. So it should be very interesting to hear what he says with the story that is emerged today about the Premier League charges against Manchester City, but that is it. As I say, five live is the place to be and the place to listen to the match commentary on England, Spain, live from Wembley on Saturday night 745 kickoff and also look out on BBC sounds as well for that special football daily, which will react to today's Manchester City news with Mark Chapman. This is the football story of the century. It's pandemonium, it's sex to say. It's an authoritarian regime. For the past 15 years, English football has been dominated by Manchester City. They are champions again, but not only that, they've won it four years running and no one's done that ever. Then the Premier League dropped a bombshell. The Premier League has charged Manchester City with more than a hundred breaches of its financial rules following a four-year investigation. Somebody turned up at the Hetty-Head stadium and effectively served papers. Hear the in-depth analysis and explanation with football on trial, the Manchester City charges. Listen on BBC sounds. What's it like to take on the world on your own and win? I'm Lee James, and I'm more than the score I'm speaking to cyclist Seagrid Halsett and Steve Cummings about the art of riding alone and what it takes to get the better of the sport's biggest names. Search for more than the score wherever you get to your BBC podcast.