The Champion's Paradox: Inside Arsenal's Quest for Back-to-Back Mastery and European Immortality

This BBC Podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Influences and content creators have been making headlines at the US Open, but how important are they to tennis? Find out by searching for more than a school wherever you get your BBC podcasts. Get more with BBC Podcasts wherever you listen. Be the first to listen to your favourite shows, like Evil Genius, Good Bad Billionaire and You're Dead To Me, with a subscription to BBC Podcasts Premium on Apple Podcasts. You can also enjoy a range of our podcasts ad-free with an Amazon Music subscription. It's all over again. Right above my head, red smoke fills the air of South London, on what is a brilliant name for half of North London. The Premier League trophy has asked no ribbons on it again for the first time for 22 years. They've done it three years in a row as Premier League runners-up. The Bright Spades no more. They've got the trophy and they are celebrating long and hard. John Murray with the commentary of Arsenal's trophy lift last season. So can the gunners go better and defend their league title? And can they finally get their hands on that elusive Champions League over the next hour or so? We'll discuss the state, the squad who's been looking sharp in pre-season, the signings, the club of Maid and the gaps which still remain. We'll do it in the company of the Athletic Xamie, Lawrence Arsenal fan and podcaster for the Arsenal Vision podcast, Clive Palmer. And the former gunners' full-back, Carl Jenkinson, Clive. I'll come to you first. I can imagine you spent the summer reliving last season and that day at Crystal Palace. It was a long time coming. Yeah, a long time coming and not just that day, but a day after and the week after. And it just went on for the whole summer. As you move around London and seeing everybody enjoying themselves, 22 years, a long time, right? And I didn't realise it was that long. Amy, tell us about your journey, obviously, being a journalist as well, someone who's in the industry, what you've seen over the past 22 years. I don't know if you've got long enough for that. It's been quite the ride, doesn't it? It's been quite the ride for the Arsenal, but I mean, it all culminated in that win last season. It felt like a cathartic experience for not just the football club, but the people of North London, the red half of North London. Well, probably a bit more than half. But I think that there was a sense of euphoria and elation. It's really, you know, listening to the commentary back there of John Murray. The moment that really sticks in my mind isn't actually that trophy left. It was the previous Tuesday night when Man City dropped points at Bournemouth and Arsenal won the league in that moment. And living in North London, living around the corner from the stadium was an experience the like of which I've never had in my several decades of living. You know, people just opened their doors and pulled out and there was this very spontaneous organic explosion. It's very fever-picked, wasn't it? Yeah, it was. And I think that's what really made it special. It's weird because people thought, oh, you know, it doesn't feel different if you're not playing and you're not in the stadium. And there's an assumption that it's worse. And in a weird way, I almost thought it was better because all of Arsenalism was there. And when you're in the stadium, it's only those who are lucky enough to get and provisioned off to get tickets. And the sense of community and what this club means to an awful lot of people globally as well as locally who've chosen that club for a reason, I think. You saw every possible type of person that exists out there when Arsenal won the league. It was like a multicultural experience. It was a happening and people identified with it. And yeah, that kind of, all the years of pent up, you know, having to try and defend your club when they're not quite up there. The second again, Olay Olay stuff was beginning to lose its sense of humour, really. I think for people, it was enough. I think it was a very, very significant cultural, social moment as well as a footballing moment for Arsenal and for all who loved them. I mean, I covered it both after that Bournemouth game and, I mean, the parade and all the celebrations that ensued. And it was wild to see the streets of North London as packed as they were. People congregated in just a pure element to celebration. People coming from far and wide to celebrate the Arsenal. One man who has been in that era, that 22 years. You want a trophy, though, with the gun as the FA Cup back in 1314. It's Carl Jenkins and Carl Great to have you on five live sport with us. And just firstly, to sort of cap it all off, you announce your retirement this week as well from professional football. Why would you look back on on a career? Yeah, I mean, it's a strange time, I guess. When you sort of, I think, you know, for a little while in advance, you're going to make that decision. But yeah, I found it quite strange putting it out on Sunday and feeling kind of that gave me. I felt my shoulders drop a little bit because I knew that I was going to do it for a while. And yeah, it was great. And then I got to watch the Arsenal go and win a community shield as well. So around it was a great day. But yeah, I'm excited for the next chapter of life. And what that's going to bring me football has been sort of my whole life, really, for 20 odd years. So yeah, we'll see what's next. An England international, a Premier League defender. You've played across the EFL as well. I mean, one thing I think I really sort of hit home just looking at your announcement. And I sat and I probably took time to read it. You get these sort of like, you know, tiny little chunks of time during the day where you can sit and actually chew through something. But it was a message with a meaning. It was it was directed to to the next generation, wasn't it? I mean, it must have taken you a bit of time. That was no AI bit of kid that you wrote there. That was that was something from the heart. Yeah, I just I thought, you know, if I'm going to put something out, it was actually my mate earlier in the week when I went up to him in Scotland. He's at Celtic and he said, no, you've got to put something out. You got, you know, he gave me the nudge to put a video together and stuff like that. And I thought, well, if I'm going to put something out, I want to, you know, I don't want to do the generic sort of, you know, pose that some x footballers do and which is fine. I wanted to try and put something together, maybe with a bit more value. And yeah, it wasn't kind of planned. It was laying on the sofa and just sort of started freeway and see what comes to my mind. And obviously that must have been a message that's kind of been inside me for a few years now. As I've got older and become a senior player and sort of looked out for the younger players. At the clubs that I've been at. And yeah, sort of put that message together. And I'm glad I did because I've had some really nice feedback from, you know, parents and young lads and young lads who are played with or have said some nice things about my time with them and the influence that I had on them. So I'm glad I did it, to be honest. And I spoke to your last manager, Andy Wubman. And when you picked up your injury, he was genuinely gutted. I think I saw him a couple of days later and he was, he was genuinely distraught about it. And it's testament to who you are. So congratulations on a fantastic career. You've used the dream of so many out there. Let's get to it, though. Let's talk about the Arsenal and what were you can expect this season? And where else to start, though? Then Sunday's 3-0 community shall win over Manchester City. What a statement that that was. Who wants to go first, Amy? It's so interesting, because I don't think beforehand the concept of making a statement was particularly in people's minds. Certainly not mine. In fact, if you'd watched much of Arsenal's preseason, I'd say most people may be a little bit concerned at the readiness sort of physically to kind of hit the traditional curtain razor to the season. And, you know, there are a number of players who were involved on the day who hadn't played any football at all. Obviously, they do their training behind closed doors and Carl, I'd be fascinated to know from you. We set a lot of store as outside observers of what we see of players during the 90 minutes of a game. Oh, you know, they've managed half an hour football or they came on for this long or they did this or that. We're not seeing what everyone does in the whole rest of the week. So, is there a lot that they're doing behind the scenes to work on that fitness? Obviously, that we can't see, because we judge it on games. And they can't possibly be ready. He's not played yet. And then, of course, all clubs, Declan Rice, all come sack her. You know, they get the first minutes of preseason. But in terms of going back to your statement observation, it felt like they played with the swagger and authority of people who know their champions, rather than people that are still trying to wrestle with this ogre of an opponent that trying to overcome over the last previous years in Manchester City has been such a big thing, feeling like if you drop a point ever, there's a sense of the rules closing in. But now, you can relax. You can feel like you know who you are, your champions of England. You deserve to be playing with that strut, that confidence. And they made it into a game that City can cope with. And they weren't, didn't look ready for it. They didn't look ready. I think this is a really important moment, actually, because towards the end of the last season, it felt like we were trying to defend something. We hadn't won. And we were playing a, maybe, a brand of football where we were scored ball watching a little bit. And it was very, very tense for every person. This thing right now, they know what I mean. It was very, very tense. Every game felt like a really tight margin. And I've been really interested to see how Michele's going to reinvigorate a group of people that reached them out in top. How's it going to do that? And I think from the message in the first 30 seconds of that game, they're not trying to defend something. They're trying to attack and win something again. I think that's a different mindset. And there's different ways to approach when you reach them out in top. Do you want to look at the train session by train session? Or do you set a new mission statement to say, we want to achieve something that's never been done before and like defend it back to back apart from in the 30s? There's new mission statements which are broader and there's maybe the iterative ones on a training by training basis. And the first 30 seconds told me everything. Everybody free running, running through lines, mind other guard running past the center forward has happened for a long time. As soon as you see that, you know, new message is going in and we're here to show a new side of ourselves. I thought it was brilliant. It was a swarm car. I mean, that first, I think you bang on club sitting there watching it. You're like, wow, this is, this is incredible. And I think for the first few minutes of a game, especially with something like the Community Shield after World Cup, after an exhausting season where you're challenging and you're chasing neck and neck. You wonder how the players are going to settle back into it. Where are you going to go shape wise, the intensity? But man, I think you bang on with that point, club. It was as if to say, we are, this is us now. This is who we are with the champions. We've come to play, you're playing us. It was a swagger. And I think swagger is the right word. I mean, what did you make of it, huh? Yeah, I think what I loved about the performance yesterday was, you know, when we went one new up, I think sometimes last year, the handbrake would come on. And it would be a case of defending that. And certainly on some occasion, not really going to try and get that second goal, you know, and you could feel that that handbrake was on at times. Yesterday, it seemed to see a completely different performance. You know, as a case of score, the first goal right, we're going to go again. And we're going to go again. And I think, you know, you don't want to read too much into a community field game, because obviously it's not got the same pressure as maybe an FA Cup or whatever. And teams will play a little bit freer. But I did think there were some real positives there. And a few friends reached out to me and they said, you know, I think we're going to be different this year. I think we're going to be more attacking. And we're going to have a bit more of a free flamming style. You can see it. The weight of the boy's shoulders and that. So with a bit of luck, we see plenty more of that going into the season, because it was a really impressive win yesterday. Individually, though, there was some phenomenal performances. And I want to hone in on Marsler's Skelly, because the ball in Ficala Fiori was delicious. It was sumptuous. Call it what you want. But it was pinpoint. And Ficala Fiori to set the marker down inside 30 seconds was incredible. But how am I still reading about this young man potentially moving to a Premier League? Why are you taking a big, big deep breath in? Yeah, I have to maybe choose my words carefully. I'm struggling to make any logical sense out of any of this. And I just think there's a business side of football and we're not always party to all of those decisions. And there's an emotional side of football, which is obviously where the majority of fans kind of lean into how they feel about a player or what's going on in the transfer market. But just from a pure footballing point of view, putting aside all of those things, I can't see any sense. This is not a good football decision. You know, this is a player who has that added extra of being hairlend, locally produced, locally born, grew up three or four miles from the stadium, asked for support to all his life. That all means something. But what means more is the quality of this boy as a footballer and as a character and as a personality. And in all of those things, he scores so highly. And if he wasn't an Arsenal player, he's a sort of player I'd think they should try and get hold of at the age of 19. So the fact that they have him and that he is so very connected, so symbolic, it's difficult to comprehend that even if there are financial imperatives behind the scene and they've got to balance books and this and the other, for me there has to be a different way. And that I would regard it as almost something where it's the last, the last of last results. And what I think is also important is this player does not want to leave Arsenal Football Club. He has had absolutely nothing to do with any pushing of any ideas or anything like that. He's just come back from his holidays, having had a phenomenal end to the season, having come back into the team after a while out and showed himself in midfield rather than as a left-back where he started out playing most predominantly in the first team. And he breathes some new life into that team and some new character at the end of the season when they really needed it and played in a trampeseed file against the best midfield in the world. You would argue in Paris Saint-Germain currently and was terrific. It's a madness and I hope that the embers of this strange fire die down extremely quickly and he's very much a part of things go forward. We know about him as a footballer but does it mean just that a little bit more because he's a high-end boy? It does and I think one of the things has happened. I've been supporting Arsenal many decades but the last three or four years has been my favourite and the reason why there's been a real connection between the club, the fans and the players, real connection running through the club and that's why you get 1.2 million people on the street today after lose a champion league final because of that connection and Miles is part of that connection and he definitely represents a lot of people and when I was growing up people like Patrick Riere and Paul Davis, Liam Wright, they had a similar type feeling and a similar type impact on many many people and I do feel this one does a little bit. We're not kids right, things have to happen in life and in business but for this kid I do feel he's already had to show massive character. He got into the team really well as a left-back but then came out of the team, he even played for England and suddenly he's not even playing for Arsenal and to have that dip and then come back as they may be the same for the Champions League final and play against the best team in the world and look totally at home and then come out again in the preseason and then come into the community shield and play really really well. He's showing you everything that a professional footballer needs. We all think we can do that job but you need to have a special mentality and he has that and I just hope it all works out. Can't you arrive to Arsenal at the age, Mausler Skelly is that now? You were 19 years old. It's a different organisation. It's an organisation that's in 2026 and very much a 21st century football club but what would your advice be to him right now? What would you say to Mausler Skelly who's playing for the Arsenal who's doing what he's doing? You know just when you said that it made me think about how he already is as a character at 19 years of age because you know I put my video out when I retired yesterday and you can see me talking about when I'm signing for the club and you know I'm a young lad and I speak like a young lad you know and I speak like a 19-year-old. You can tell Mausler Skelly's way beyond his years and he's got fearlessness that I really admire for someone at such a young age and I think Clive made a really good point there regarding last season. He had a dip in form where he wasn't you know when he first come in he was untremendously and he got himself in in the England squad and he struggled a bit at times at left back last year and to show that character again at his sort of age to come back from that to go again. What I will say he was always a central midfielder wasn't he so in some ways at 19 years of age he's playing out of position so maybe some of them struggles last season are absolutely understandable but since he stepped into midfielder I think he looks fantastic he's got everything he touched on the past there that he played through to Califuri it's just a vision to see it number one and to two to execute it with a perfect weight of past fantastic yeah so my advice to him would be just keep doing what you do him I was because he's absolutely flying and and as an Arsenal fan I'm thrilled for him. Let's focus on the midfielder Martin Oedigard scored Arsenal's third and putting a player the match performance on Sunday. Here's what he's managing Mikael Arthetta I had to say about him afterwards. He missed five or six months for different things and he was extremely difficult for him to get any momentum so I'm sure this year he will can maintain him fit available with the players around him we're going to see a very different Martin and I sense from the first day that he joined that he has something else on on the belly that he wants to prove and show because the team needs it as well. Mikael Arthetta talking about is Captain Martin Oedigard there I felt I was just just asking who was coming on that goal because I mean I ran out of superlatives watching it was that was sublime you must have seen some good football over the years some of the players you've watched Arsenal you think of Rocky of Armory of Wright whoever it is Birdcam that was that was nonchalant. Yeah it's interesting watching his body language change over preseason I mean the name you've seen the games he's a different person he looks so much happier he's bouncing around the pits he's running he's winning collisions he's it's just it's just a complete transformation and that goes to show you another reason what you do in addressing when you make it uncomfortable maybe actually we feel just coming in as made everybody's jump around a little bit more but that goal was just beautiful sort of playground goal at school wasn't it sort of thing you do that no one sees or in training but he's done it on the biggest stage with you know many thousands in the building and at the main city end and rolls away and you sit the keeper down and this keeper's not bad right so yeah I to see him come back I don't think people are ready for this actually because we almost won the league last year without have a saccharin oligarch being any sort of form helpful fitness and we're able to win the league and now they're all back in the room and looking fit I think it's going to be a different Arsenal this season I mean he is your captain but it's it's amazing to think and Carl come to you on this it's amazing to think this is someone who at 14 15 years old was was tattooed as like a child prodigy I remember reading about him in the papers and and then watching him go go towards where I'm a kid but he's had to he's had to grow up and I say great fast it feels like it's only now he's he's become Martin Odegard and he's really sort of grown in to who he is matured and and really carved out an identity as a player and that showed it on Sunday it was him back to his very best he really looked last in the yeah I mean can you just just on a side like can you imagine signing for a club like Real Madrid at 14 years of age what that you know the pressure and the eyes on you at that that young age in in your development as a human let alone a footballer so he's had to go through that and obviously he's probably just developed that his natural rate I think everyone's always seen he's a he's a really good football even when he had his loans from Real Madrid the other thing I'll just say about Odegard is last season he did have quite a few injuries and I think people can underestimate how important being in a River McGames is if you haven't if you're having these niggles here and there and they're keeping you out for a game or two or three or four weeks at a time then you're coming back and you're throwing in and you're expected to be at your level very very very difficult with Odegard I really hope he can maintain his fitness this year and he can just get a consistent runner games in because when he does he shows his quality doesn't he I just want to link in Amy at the new signing Bruno Gimma right who was a proper enforcer the the other day but what does his introduction into the Arsenal team mean for Odegard does it offer him the opportunity to push forward a bit more to be a bit more creative to be a bit more selfish in what he does to take a bit more thought in what he does it's a really interesting question and I think we'll have to watch those relationships develop over a bit more of a time frame but I don't think Odegard's performances or how he expresses himself on the pitch has that much to do with others it's more about himself he sometimes find with those special players with those sort of perfectionist type players but they have to be so fine tuned and if something's just a bit off it doesn't work and I was just thinking about a few years ago I went to his hometown which is a tiny little place in outside Oslo called Draman I mean like a village almost really small I remember thinking this little shy kid and when he used to go to his father's footballer and play for the local club and his dad used to bring him down to when he went training and like leaving with some of the older boys and he would not say a word and have a little pat lunch and do his play football all day long and then get picked up and go home and he was quite known for being quite quiet and the time when I was there he was sort of just recently made I think the captain of Norway and would also be made captain of Arsenal and there was quite a lot of surprise it's a small town everyone knows each other and people were like little Martin like you know he never really felt like captain material and I wonder if you look at him now the man who's picked up the championship trophy as a captain and maybe that weighed a bit heavy in previous years you know I'm the guy who's responsible I'm the captain here and he's he's he's leading his own way he's he's a very good listener and talker and I think that all the guys around the dressing room have very good interpersonal relationships with him but he's not a screamer and a shouter kind of a probably Bruno Gamarose he's going to be doing a bit more that type of leading or rice does but he leads by you know in his own sort of quite understated but very important and pointed way that he says things to people and they do really listen and admire him but I think that he feels differently now as a leader of the team and that will manifest itself in the way he feels free to express himself and play football. Clive when you look at additions Bruno Gamarose is fabulous isn't he when he comes with the Premier League pedigree with the quality and with the attributes that Michel Arterte wants to add to this team. Yeah I think this sign is so interesting because the end of last season obviously we've won and we've danced around the streets enjoying ourselves and I wasn't thinking at that time needed a little bit of leadership and example sitting because I thought we had enough. But actually to have a bit more on-board personality is no bad thing for those in Budapest you could see that we couldn't control the game couldn't control the ball you need people with big personalities that can help you do that. I think he's going to set examples with his energy and his passion for the game he's like the manager right look at the manager if you ever met him and looked at me in the eyes you'll know that he's a serious man when it comes to football and Bruno looks very similar and he's got a real presence and wisdom on the pitch when he goes into collisions he winters collisions he he understands how to buy a foul to win the referee the go-shape his way through a game he just understands I call him an upper tier passer right so when you're sitting in the upper tier you can see all the passes at the end right so you can see him all can't yeah but then he can see him all and I'm thinking well you're down in the tulips right you're down in the mixer in there but you can see all the passes and I love that about him he just sees it and he does it and if he doesn't work out his reaction is really really good so I'm really interested to see how this midfield co-existed with each other and I know a lot of people like to pick their favorite midfields but there's going to be lots of different configurations and I'm so interested to see what we end up doing. Surely Declan Rice is the winner out of this because he looked exhausted in the summer I mean it's it's been a long since he's all action as well he he never leaves less than 100% on the pitch and he's such a phenomenal competitor but if you're Declan Rice now you're looking thinking right there's someone who can match my quality who's not just going to be a competition but we can co-exist here really well caught. Yeah and I also think he you know I think that's a maybe Michele's looking ahead with that because I believe Declan Rice played 69 games last year for club and country there's a lot of football he can't be going out and doing that every season because you'll eventually break down and Michele's now going to have that luxury of rotating a little bit more than maybe did last year because let's be honest when Declan Rice was fit last year he played and understandably he's understandably size one of our best players but every player has a breaking point as such and they can only play so many games so I think a big win on that front is actually four Declan Rice he's going to get a bit of respite at different periods in the season on Gamer Rice himself I think is what Clive touched on there about being a leader I think you only have to look at his record at Newcastle when he didn't play I think he I think he's missed 10 Premier League games for them I don't think they won one and I think when he played it was you know one in two or a little bit more I think it was that they'd go on and win so and that's not all just because he's a cracking footballer that that shows to me that you can get the best out of people around him as well Clive made a really interesting point about you know sort of looking into Mikaela Teta's eyes and understanding what he wants from a player he was a joy to watch I mean I'd say I really enjoyed watching him as a competitor you played with him you you shared a dressing room with his man do you look at that midfield and go yeah that's a signature Mikaela Teta midfield that is that he's crafted by him well I think with Mikaela you can you can tell he has that fire in his eye himself doesn't he you know I think of his interview after the ball of game last year he said I am fire you know and so he always has that fire in his eye and I think he loves players like that you can tell when he used to play like that you know he was fully committed very skillful in the ball as well in terms of his passing his weight a part his range of passing so yeah I think all managers like to bring in maybe bring in players that they can kind of see themselves in and I think Gima Rice is is is that type and he's he's going to be a warrior for us and we says himself that's that that's what he calls himself and and you can see already but he can also pick a pass I know you touched on it before I mean I watched the coma game in preseason some of the passes that you can play through breaking lines you know he's not just he's a lot a lot more than just a foot below breaks up plans sticks a sticks a foot in these he looks like he's got a lot influences and content creators have been making headlines at the US Open but how important are they to tennis find out by searching for more than a score wherever you get your BBC podcasts get more with BBC podcasts wherever you listen be the first to listen to your favorite shows like evil genius good bad billionaire and you're dead to me with a subscription to BBC podcasts premium on apple podcasts you can also enjoy a range of our podcasts add free with an amazon music subscription five likes for so here's the first ball of it soon all the cricket you left lives on BBC sounds yeah ball by ball coverage of the biggest competitions on the domestic and international circuits it's a ball cricket and it's the huge one cricket on five live sport listen on BBC sounds you're listening to the football daily podcast with Alan Paul now sports psychologists and Abrahams has worked with elite athletes from England rugby to the Premier League and also worked alongside Anna slot at final the year they won the Dutch era to visit title in 2023 the following season they finished second behind psv i and heaven and I spoke to Dan about the psychological challenges that come with defending elite title at final we created some very simple terms that we could anchor ourselves to in the 2022 23 season hpm high performance mindset every single player had their own unique high performance mindset they knew what they had to do to find their high performance mindset as individuals and as teammates and we really benefited from that throughout the 22 23 season going on to win the Dutch era to visit title and it's always challenging to follow that up you know complacency can set in teams are always bringing new faces and opposing teams bringing better players and they have new ideas and so it was always challenging in that following season as you say we finished second now we did win the Dutch Cup so we did have some success but we just really carried on reinforcing the importance of players competing in their high performance mindset updating the mental models that they had and we finished second we got into the champions league we won that Dutch Cup but no doubt psv were better than us that season so did we fail did we succeed it's in the eye of the beholder when does the prep begin for the next season and effectively trying to build on what you've done but also shifting the the mentality from a we are going to be the the chases you are going to try and you know lift this title to a we've got a target in our backs now you're really doing it straight away coaches are back in bringing the right players in working with their scouts working to to bolster the squad and then from day one you want players hitting the ground running there's all kinds of different messages you know it is it that we've never defended the title so we're going to set that as an objective or is it that you know we're just going to continue the processes that we've done really well in the last season you're always trying to create many stories and many objectives in the minds of the players when they come back for a preseason for us I remember at fine order it was just let's hit the ground running again let's have great leadership let's have great teamwork let's be even better than we were last season and let's make sure no complacency kicks in because I think that word complacency is so pertinent here you know it takes a lot of energy it's metabolically costly across the organization to win championships it's hard to do right you've got to be on it every single day and even taking a few weeks off players can come in they're still a little bit fatigued they're still a bit tired they're still blurry eyed if you like and that's where you've got to be on them as coaching staff and you've got to make sure senior players leaders are on it and the energy starts again essentially and how easy will it be for them to I use the term so often but you know go from being the chase to the chase having that target on their back and trying to emulate that success was also going one further in in the European Cup I think it depends on what messages Mika Lateta used last season to help them win I mean were they using the messages of you know we haven't won this for X amount of years it was it's since the invincible's in to O304 something like that you'd know better than me you know what messaging was Mika Lateta using can he use the same messaging he'll likely vary it up ultimately my straightforward answer to you is not easy at all it'll be stunningly difficult it is difficult these are these are complex environments filled with people striving to do the very best that they can do but their human beings with different needs once hopes doubts belief expectations all of them want to be playing and some of them will be disappointed some of them would have spent a lot of energy as I said metabolic cost driving things last season striving to win that Premier League title last season and it does it is easy to have a hangover because it can be so exhausting to do that we will see what happened you know they've already started one the community shield so we'll see so very very difficult very very possible Mika Lateta in his coaches will strive to get the messaging right alongside his senior players he still has to drive those behavioral norms standards the leadership the mindset the teamwork he continues to chip away at that why not sports cycle just Dan Abraham's there still with us though the athletics Amy Lawrence Arsenal fan and podcaster Clive Palmer and former Gunners fallback Carl Jenkinson the word complacency came up a few times Amy I mean having seen the squad over a preseason but also knowing that the nature of the beast that is Mika Lateta his mind so how he works you think that's the last thing these players would be feeling and I think Sunday showed it as well yeah I'm not a huge fan of that you know people quite often try around the world word complacency and football and I don't buy it all that often truthfully I think people are generally trying their best and they can be different things that are affecting performances I'd be more interested in what he was saying about how you recreate that hunger when you push yourself to the absolute limit I mean when you remember the enormity of the stress they put themselves under for basically 10 months physically psychologically every single week it was on a knife edge it was absolutely so intense and I do think there's a natural reaction to that and I don't think it's complacency I think it's much more of the hangover that I would have been concerned about but it really linked in for me with this is exactly why Bruno has been brought this is exactly why they went for Vinnie how do you change the dynamic in that dressing room you know if you if you've basically asked people to climb to the top of the mountain they do it and then you have a little holiday and say right you're at the bottom mountain again let's climb the mountain again that's really really tough stuff you got to change it up he's been mocked and ridiculed by by by supporters of other sides club I mean people some people are labeling in sort of brain-task at point last season because of his antics you think about that the speakers on the training training pitch a pre-livable plate boosting out you never walk alone and and the drawings and even sort of you know the documentary which really highlighted what he's like as a character but getting over that line and over that sort of you know that speed bump in the road of lifting the Premier League title will it have will it have charged him up again and and sort of you know open up another dimension or do you think it would have taken the pressure just a little bit off the players and off our teta with with everything that's done he's done in the past yeah and the definitely think the pressure will be off slightly but I also they have this very much of a family environment amongst the players and they create this protective state around the team and within that environment they do what they do to motivate each other and I think it was looking at Alston saying one if they can defend it one they can do this well actually the way he would dress it up he's saying look look at the opportunity we have I think he would dress it up that way we have the opportunity to do something special we have the opportunity as a group of men together to do something else let's not think we have achieved it we can achieve more and do something for example if anyone calls me a diluted Alston fan there's one trophy out there we've never won our history they've got very close to winning last year and it's quite easy to motivate a group of men to go and do that because that would make you immortal amongst Alston fans if you do that I think that's so important to set new goals and I don't see this an issue for him he is very much somebody that really invested in leadership people leadership and improving people and developing people I am not concerned at all about this we'll talk about the Champions League in a moment or so let's hear from Mikael Alston he's been speaking to Dan Rowan about the football clubs ambitions going into the new season this time as defending champions only three Premier League managers have ever retained the title how confident are you of becoming just the fourth well we've got an opportunity to do something that we haven't done in these football clubs so does ambition does the desire and and does the direction that we're going to take in in everything that we do does it require something of a psychological shift for the players who have now achieved what the club wanted to achieve for so long you're in a different position now you're the target for other clubs I think we want to experience again the feeling of becoming champions and go through those motions and now it's like building a beast inside you hey you want to go through that again and you know what is going to take you feel that you are capable of doing it and we just have to be so resilient every single day so committed and showing the desire that we have to achieve it you spoke I think at the end of last season about being ambitious again this summer are you satisfied with the transfer business the club has been able to do I'm very satisfied with ambition that we are showing to to go to a next level in everything that we're doing at the football club from the changes that we do in the stadium so with the the connection we're generally with our people what we're doing in the training ground what we're doing with the squad with the staff and then some things can be done and some others are not in your hand but certain ambition is there and especially what we put in the emphasis is with the people that we have internally to make them better and to make them feel valued and important what do you success look like for you this season retaining the title and winning the Champions League is that your target ultimately they all will know that it is to win major trophies as many as we possibly can and what we have to do is make sure that we magnify it every day to play as an understaff to behave in that manner. The ambition is there Amy for for Miguel Arterta I mean the European Cup it's been so close on a couple of occasions now how do they realign it and does the sort of balance now shift towards the Champions League in terms of the ambition the motivation he's an ambition beast he's an ambition monster and I don't think he differentiates I think he'll want it all that doesn't mean he's going to get it and you know the competition is as ferocious as ever maybe more so and I think that's where he made it clear in Budapest like 15 minutes after that feeling of being so close and losing that final and he sat there in the press conference and spoke about how immediately he was thinking about what needs to be better to be able to compete more to be able to get over that line and he knows there needs to be different ingredients he needs a few more tools in the toolbox to be able to take it to a team like Paris as your man of final and as things stand it doesn't look like the club have they've tried to do that kind of business but they haven't got it over the line yet so we wait and see are you hinting towards fantasy's junior well that was a pretty clear statement of intent as to this is what we think takes us closer towards that level of promised land it was about as ambitious a transfer target as I think Arsenal have ever had and I remember when they signed Dennis Bergkamp and that felt like you know a miracle was happening because it was it was wild to be buying a player of that kind of world class and establish global star at that time and Vinnie was probably the the one that actually even surpasses that level of ambition given the way football has changed since then but there wasn't an obvious plan B you know you always think when they're going into a transfer window you've got your main set of targets and then you've got your next lot but it's clearly the pool of players when you're in Arsenal's level where you've been penalty kicks away from winning a Champions League and you've won the league the pool of players that can improve you as small I mean Clive when you look back at the past six seven years and the evolution of the transfer strategy I look back to the the Rouse and early days and the players that you made your face for the players you were bringing in then to the players you're after now and how it's evolved to Edu Andrea Bertha as well with hindsight do you feel maybe a little bit used by Vinnie's junior a little bit played it depends I mean from the outside now people saying yes you will use but actually there seems to be a real club commitment to make that deal happen and when you start to do the numbers in your own mind and you realise the potential of a commercial explosion around the signing like that the numbers would have worked so in the end he chose to stay and that's his right and he got extra money from Madrid who didn't move for 18 months on the contract until the House will knock the door and so from the outside in you can say we got played to me it was a message to say what we're trying to be so what we're trying to be you want to be the best team in Europe that makes you probably the number one club team in the world if you set that ambition you have to act like it and they tried and I think if you don't shoot you don't score right so for me that was a brave move now we got two weeks to get the next things right and every single club fan loves to see their their club bringing new players etc and so we've got a couple of bits to do in one in defence and maybe one in attack there's time to do it and how we go about that's important but there's still time. Karl just looking at sort of you know talking ambition just leaning back on that Martin Oda God after Sunday's win over Manchester City came out and said there are a few others we want to win the Champions League is a big one we want to win everything though and that's the mindset as a player in that squad how important is it for you that the captain has gone out publicly I'm put down a marker we're here we want to win this is our ambition bang yeah I mean I think that's that comes from the manager as well doesn't it I mean he he's a he wants to win everything then he that's all we talked about he's so ambitious and you know Martin is sort of mouthpiece within the changing room and sometimes out to to the rest of the club as well and it's a good message to to put out and and it's a realistic one you know um we came so close last year so so close but we'll say I don't want to get too carried away with the you know focus main focus being on the Champions League and the reason I say that is because I kind of don't want us to get ahead of ourselves in the centre the Champions League is such a hard tournament to win you know I think a Premier League is such an achievement in itself but it's over a prolonged period of games and generally the team who is the best over that period of game goes and wins here Champions League is a different kettle of fish you know you can go out on penalties you know you got some real elite level team from all over Europe like there's so many different things that can affect the outcome of that and you know that's not me sort of making excuses that we didn't win it last year of course PSG the fantastic but my my point is it's a very hard tournament to win so I don't want us sort of as a fan base having that as our sole focus you know we had such an amazing season last year let's enjoy that and of course go for everything um like the manager and captain have said but one step at a time I guess I've mentioned recruitment loads of talk about Arsenal's defences season the availability of William Celeba and whether they'll look to reinforce further in the window let's bring in BBC Sports Arsenal reporter Alex Howell Alex good evening there's been reports in the papers over the past few days in interest in Esri Conzer and Cherelle Conzer anything concrete in those rumors yeah that's right Arsenal have looked at both of those players they're looking to bring in a defender that can play at centre back and also right back as well and Conzer and Conzer both fit that profile Conzer obviously more senior more experienced and proved it at the World Cup with England but a difference in valuation where Arsenal see it and Ashton Villa valuing him more closer to the 60 million pearl mark which is obviously a higher figure for a 28-year-old centre back in the same Cherelle Conzer talks there with his camp rather than that famous club to club at the moment but he's definitely on the list where are we with attacking options as well obviously the Venice's junior deal broke down quite early on there's been rumors of Bradley Barcola is there anyone else in the mix and and do you think Arsenal are going to potentially look to strengthen maybe someone who can play either side or is it going to be an out and out forward as Amos and they're looking for that player that can level them up and if you're looking for a player that's going to improve the Premier League champions and the sides that reached the Champions League final there's a small group of players that can't do that Bradley Barcola is on the list but again with those players Arsenal aren't the only interested team in him Liverpool were also looking at him and there's been a long-standing interest in Hullian Alvarez as well and so I wouldn't rule out a left-winger or a striker those are both options but you're looking at a very small group of players that could come in and give the effect to the Arsenal we're looking for you have Gabrielle Martinelli who wasn't in the squad on Sunday in the community shield and then if you're spending a big amount of money you have to be a player that is going to at least lift the squad above what he can offer and he's been a very solid option for Arsenal over these past few years Alex thank you so much Alex how BBC sports Arsenal reports are there with us Kyle just looking at the options at the back there are still cover places available there's peat this players in there that can do jobs you look at a Moscaira a Ben White a Hincapier they're players that can play multiple positions are you worried though about this situation with William Celeba and I asked because Mick Alartetta head of the community shield said as we know it's more of a long-term injury how concerned are you with that yeah I think the main concern with that one is that it's a back injury and I think whenever you hear back you're always concerned obviously it plays a big part in being physically able and yeah I am a little bit worried and you only had to see the moment that you went down and you in the France game you can almost see it was saying that's enough kind of thing and I got the impression and from what people were saying it was carrying that for a while so don't know the ins and outs of the details but obviously you hope that it's not something too bad at the end of the day he's an integral part of the team and I think the the partnership him and Gabrielle Form last year was just incredible and it was a big part and foundation of the success arsenal adds so someone's going to have to step in I've always liked Moscaira and it's funny when you talk about debt for me and it's almost like these clubs you know generally in the Bruno League they want debt for pond debt for pond debt for these days you know they want so much covering different positions everyone wants to pay that exactly so then you got to be able to manage that as well and manage these egos and these top players who want to be playing every week so of course there's an argument to bring in a centre-off because of what's happened to the Saliba but you're right there is there are some top players who can step in already in that squad I mean it's debilitating I remember Rea Ferdinand talking about sort of you know struggling with his back and he struggled quite early on with his back and in the mid 2000s and coming on and being able to move and walk and it's a struggle is it potentially time Arsenal looked for a long-term solution to this do they give it time and is there a ready made replacement in someone like a hint capyae available to me I'd say the long-term replacement might be Marley Simon who's a very young boy of 16 nearly 17 but has phenomenal ability and composure already that's obviously on the day was unbelievable but expecting him to come into Premier League early early right away that wouldn't be fair I don't think so there is this sort of like gap there's a as a hiatus if you like between where Arsenal are now and when someone like Marley Simon might be ready ready for that promotion um so but the the complication is what kind of person are you bringing in because if Ciliber is going to come back in three or four months and be tickety-boo are you then going to have a bit of a surfeit of players and then you find yourself probably not because there's an awful lot of football that we played um but finding a you don't you know William Ciliber's don't grow on trees so it's just not straightforward to replace him that easily I wonder thought yeah they're carrying a risk on that side right because it's not just about Ciliber's about you're in timber as well it's had a green injury and he came out of the World Cup didn't make that didn't wasn't able to start the Champions League final and if he did who knows what could have happened and then you got Ben White who had an injury towards the end of last season he's already playing with a strap on his knee and he's somebody that doesn't mind a collision so that could happen at any moment with him because he he is a warrior and so you're counter-risk with three right footers on that side injury-wise and you're putting more scare up into a really tough position of playing every three days and I just feel you got a de-risk stat by bringing somebody in and when people come back I think there's a mentality change in the dressing room now you saw it you're seeing it with Califurian in Happy they're like best mates almost but they're competing for the same position and I think people are realizing you can't play 68 games any longer if you want to have a it's like buying a high mileage car right to what a long career you've got to reduce your minutes right you've got to reduce your minutes everyone's looking at Bruno Gemmerized for example and thinking man he's 28 29 by blah blah well he's paid six hours and less minutes in Declan Rice the Declan Rice has got a higher mileage on this car than he has right so yeah as a as a as a petriot I'll say Declan Rice is he's he's tuned it up nicely isn't he right he's still looking good but we have to be wary of this right when you're trying to protect careers and make people have long careers you've got to look at that let's get some season predictions it's hard not to be optimistic especially when you watch that on Sunday where do we see Arsenal finishing this season in the league I'm going to go with caution here just because I've seen Arsenal win the league quite a few times over various decades in my life and they've not defended it yet that I've seen so you always think they can because you look at the person that's just one the league and they look the best which is why they're always favorites the next year but I think it's tough ask yeah it's a league of change but I'm going into for it mate I think we're going to be fine honestly I do think we're going to be fine I think because we have a we have an our principal baked and we saw him at a weekend they're baked we're connected we're compact and we can control games on the ball or off the ball I'm pretty confident but if that bloats Libby was fit I'd be I'd be even more confident Carl Champions again or Leo Lane look I think we the one thing that we have that a lot of the other top clubs don't have is that stability and I think you saw in a community shield how powerful that is when you compare our performance the Manchester series so yeah I'm gonna I'm gonna back us to go and do it again and what a happy man I'll be at the end of the next season if we do it European success yes or no do also win back cover to European Cup any me right now I still think they're missing the magic moments a little bit or Carl showed me up so I'm gonna hold on that when semi-fals are best no I think and with Amy today I think we'll need a little bit more and it's in one or two areas so we'll see that is all we have time but on Arsenal thank you to the brilliant Amy Lawrence from the athletic Clive Palmer is an Arsenal fan and podcast that and Carl Jenkins and Carl really wish you well for the time hopefully see you again soon thank you very well you people it's a thank you so much so much so much sport today and all the goals as they go in up and down the leagues this is five life sports it's not to stop up if you want to stand there around the 18th three he shows to the centre listen on BBC sounds influences and content creators have been making headlines at the US Open but how important are they to tennis find out by searching for more than a school wherever you get your BBC podcasts get more with BBC podcasts wherever you listen be the first to listen to your favourite shows like evil genius good bad billionaire and you're dead to me with a subscription to BBC podcasts premium on Apple podcasts you can also enjoy a range of our podcasts add free with an Amazon music subscription