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Hello, and welcome to the T-fo football podcast. I'm Joe Devine and I'm delighted to be joined by John McKenzie. Hello. Hello. Now, this is an episode of Ring for Analysis. How does Ring for Analysis work? Well, I'll tell you. I read an article that was published by a terrific journalist working at the athletic and John rings a bell that sounds like this when he wants me to stop so that he can interrupt and do some analysis. I feel like we've really nailed that in the time that we've been doing Ring for Analysis, just the explanation there, yeah. Sort of messed it up a little, I messed up the pacing a little bit, but no, do you know it's hard, it's harder than it looks to nail. Anyway, what are we doing? Well, listen, what we're doing today, here's the name of the article, just a marina's rail Madrid rebuild, how the Spanish giants spend 260 million euro this summer. John, what did we talk about on today's episode? We talked about how you should pronounce euro versus euro. I did it incorrectly there. Yeah, maybe euro. I think you're okay doing that, to be honest. Okay, I think language is fluid enough for that to be okay. This is interesting, isn't it, because what's happened is in the intro, we've come to a sort of the kind of resolution that takes a bit of an hour of processing to get to just before we have the argument after the intro. But we do that. We also talk a lot about Ramadrid's transfer rebuild this summer. Was it Galactico's window, probably not? Well, no, no, no, no, we agreed that it was a Galactico window, but without any actual Galactico's in it. Yeah, that was the rule, I think. What would Jose Mourinho Mark II look like at Ramadrid? Oh, yeah. The tactical landscape shifting, lots of pronunciation conversations. Yeah, we did a lot of that. Conversations about dominant send-of-backs. Yes, first-class full-backs. We did a lot of that as well. Tempo setting midfielders. But yeah, I thought it was a good conversation about where Ramadrid and Ramadrid have comfortably won their first three games in the league. So it's looking pretty good for them. It looks like the decision to bring in Jose Mourinho is a smart one right now, but let's see how the season unfolds. Well, that's the other thing. We also talk about short-termism. And is there really any value in not being short-termist anymore in the current... At the very elite level, right? At the very elite level. Who knows? Who knows? Well, there you go. That's what we talk about on today's episode. So after this little bit of music, we shall get started with Ring for analysis. Okay, John, as a reminder, this article is called Jose Mourinho's Rail Madrid Rebuild. How the Spanish Giants spent 260 million euros Euro Euro or Euro's. I think Euro's is what I would say. Yeah, but could you say 260 million Euro? I guess you could. That feels a little bit more dated to me. That feels like 100 million pound. Yeah, you wouldn't say that. I'd say 100 million pound. Not 100. But you'd have to use it as a 100 million pounds. 100 million pound player, you would say, wouldn't you? I spent 100 million pound on this. No, I wouldn't say that. You're right. I spent 100 million pounds. But I do feel like when we first used the word Euro, people might say it 260 million Euro. Yeah, it's 260 million Euro in that sort of way. Okay, just interesting pronunciation of Jose as well, you sort of... You just say. Well, that's the... I've tried to emulate the way that the Portuguese used it. No, I appreciate that. You get all the different mixes that you get the Jose, which is wrong. That's annoying. I find that one quite annoying. He's Portuguese. He's famous enough that you should know that it's Jose. And he's famously Portuguese, right? And he famously said it in the spirit. Yeah, it's documentary. He's like, my name is Jose Moreno. Maybe people don't know, right? The rule is, if you're Portuguese or Brazilian because they speak Portuguese in Brazil, your jays are not... They're jails. They're aspirated. Okay, so you got Jose, but then also, you know, so Jose is fine. People can say Jose Moreno. That's absolutely fine. But what he says, he says, Jose. Jose. Jose Moreno. It's not even the A, it's like, Jose. Jose. Jose Moreno. Jose Moreno. Anyway, he's done a Real Madrid Rebellion. He has. They spent 260 million Euro this summer. This article was written by Mario Cortajana. Nice. Now, just to be clear, the G is more of a chah sound in that name because he's Spanish. Spanish is a pronunciation semantic feel that I'm a little bit uncomfortable with because I feel like they have so many dialects. Yes. So some people will say Gerona. Yeah. And some people will say, Herona. Herona. I think they pronounce it Gerona in Gerona. Because it's in Catalan, right? Is that right? It's in Catalonia. Okay, so I think in Catalan it is Gerona, not Herona. But then it's Chatafé. Yes, it's Chatafé. And also there's the royal Z thing. Is that a myth? I don't know what you mean by the royal Z, but there's lots of Zs in one of the dialects. Well, the myth, I think it could be a myth, is that the reason that they say the for Z is because the Spanish king, once upon a time, had a list. Right. And so everyone had to imitate that. I think that's not true. That's probably not true. Let me just, let me look it up. Why do Spanish people pronounce Z as F? Let's see what the Google AI overview has to say. In European Spanish, the letter Z and C before E or I is pronounced as a voiceless, due to historical phonetic evolution from medieval Spanish siblings. So it's not about the king. The king, myth, a common urban legend claims that the Spanish king had a list and his subjects copied him, but linguists have proven that this myth is. I think it's false. The basic rule is any kind of linguistic shift that takes place is just through ease of pronunciation. Right. So yeah, if anything is hard to say and there's an easier way of just aligning the letters, people will just do it. Which is why in English we would say don't do that instead of do not do that. Yeah, yeah. It's a lot more informed. And it's why the most irregular verbs are the most common used words, right? Like what? As in run, ran, like stuff like that is because the words are used so much that they evolved into into quicker. Got it. Do not continue telling me this in it. Okay. Now anyway, it's Mario Cortajana, a fabulous journalist who works for the athletic. This piece was published always, yeah, it's just yesterday. September the second, as we speak, 2026. Okay, I shall begin when you're ready for me, John. I'm good to go. Here we go. At the end of April, Real Madrid were heading into a decisive meeting with Barcelona, knowing defeat would hand the La Liga title to their classical rivals. Even victory would have likely only prolonged the inevitable. Madrid were almost certain to end the season without a major trophy for a second consecutive year. That is a big deal for the 15-time European champions. The last time it happened was in 2009-10. Back then, José Moreno was brought in as manager. Fiorentina Perez, I call him Fiorentina, like Fiorentina, my bad. Fiorentina Perez had a plan. Perez. I don't know. Fiorentina Perez had a plan. Had a plan. That was a bit Russian, though. Nobody saw it coming, but by the end of April, the athletic reported that the 63-year-old Portuguese manager was Madrid President Perez's favoured option to take over from Alvaro Arbaloa. Yes, John. I just wanted to stop here, because this is weird in many respects, isn't it? Going back to Moreno after whatever it was, 20 years, when was he joined in 2010? Not quite 20 years. He joined in 2010, so it's 16 years when he was first up. But he was there for three seasons, so 13 years. And it's interesting at this point, maybe, to talk about Moreno's careers in terms of trophies, because the last league title he wins is in 2015. With Chelsea. And he wins the famous league title in 2011, 12 with Real Madrid, where they score 109 goals. And they interrupt Barcelona's, you know, one of the world's greatest evidences. Yes, on the pep. But very much at this point, it feels as though he's starting to sort of downward curve a little bit. You mean now? No, in 2010, when he joined. And the fact that they've brought him back in now, I think, is really interesting from the perspective of... Well, I mean, we'll talk about this no doubt in the upcoming article, but within the context of the stuff that I've been talking about a lot recently in terms of, like, tactical landscape shifting. I've got questions for you about that. Yeah, okay, well, I'm sure we'll get into that. But, yeah, I'm interested to talk about this. And also, I think, you know, I think Real Madrid in many respects is almost like an outlier, right? It feels like you can do things at Real Madrid that you can't really do anywhere else. But normal rules don't apply. Yeah, which is why I think you can say the same thing with Karl Langellotti. You can make the argument that he was probably on a bit of a downward curve before he rejoins. He has period of evidence and a period of nappily. And people are sort of starting to be like, yeah, you know, his time's gone, and then go to Real Madrid and house that sort of revival. What's happening, I think, is that you know how fashion often follows the fashion of 20 years before. So, for example, about 10 years ago, everyone was reliving the 80s, and then five years ago it was the 90s, and now it's the 2000s. I think Florentina Perez is doing the same thing with football managers. So, he was reliving the 90s when he hired Karl Langellotti, famous AC Milan team, cutting-edge, all the best stuff. And now he's reliving the 2000s by hiring Jose Mourinho. Next he'll try and hire Zidane again. Right, yeah. My parents have a friend from university who comes to visit them every year. Hang on, hang on, hang on. This friend is from university. So, they were at university together. Yeah, my parents were. Whose primary friend was this friend? There's no true couple friends unless the other couple is a couple. I think they were, I don't know, that's a good question. Was dad the primary or mum? Well, I think now mum is the primary friend. Oh, and my dad is, but I don't know, my dad is. But dad was the primary initially. I don't think, no, I think that they knew him together. Right. No one ever truly knows someone together. But I think, I just want to say that. I think in church circles, that's maybe the way. Like, I think you just know people by... There's always a primary spark though, isn't there? Come on, there's always one. Maybe. Are we saying that? Either way. Yeah, I don't know. I genuinely don't know. I'll have to ask. I have apples. Anyway, he was, at this time, he was wearing these like three quarter lengths, like, trackies from Adidas. Blue, like the old style. Yeah. And he has only ever worn these ever since I've known him. I presume he buys new versions of the same one. Right. But he still wears them now. Still wears them now. How old is he? Of same age as my parents. So in his seventies. I've not seen him amend that old-worth three quarter length trousers. Yeah, I guess not. He is remarkably young looking for his... Right. He's got a shins out. His parents were from the Caribbean. The guy called Duke. He's a great guy. But he wore these trousers. I've known him for whatever it is now. I mean, four years, I guess. Yeah. And he's always worn these trousers. And he has come back into fashion. I feel like these trousers have been like in and out of fashion a few times. A broken clock. But yeah, but just by nailing his aesthetic, he was like, this is what I'm going to be. And he's come back into fashion a couple of times. I think there was a window, 2023, 2024, a bit of a fall out of the pandemic, where like, absolutely, do we be nerds? Like, you will pop to earth. It's passed now, sadly. And I'm not sure I'll ever come back. But, you know, everyone has their day. It will come back. Yeah, not until you're 65. Or 65. Or 65, you're also a bit nerdy, though, aren't they? I've never met a 65-year-old that's nerdy. What do you think? Actually, as in, like... By no means, they do. They no longer... You mean, they're like bird-watching. Look at this sparrow. I think what we mean by nerdy in this context is, generally, a person knows how that has weird interests. And like stuff. And, yeah, and it's not embarrassed to admit, you know, I like weird things. Sure. And I think when you're younger, there's more pressure on you to pretend that you don't do that. And I think when you get older, every man eventually just embraces their inner nerd and then they potter around in the garage and collect stamps and, you know, fix, I don't know, water bots or whatever, old men do. I'm getting into frames, you know, painting frames. I feel like that's kind of nerdy, right? That's sort of... I guess so. I haven't yet watched a YouTube channel about frames. I think we feel like that's where you are with watches. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. But there's a bit more... I would like to imagine that the, you know, the depth of a watch is a bit more than the depth of a frame. Hey, man. Come on. I'm not... I don't want to enter the depth of a frame. It's only the material that allows us to view art. No, sure. I'm not saying that frames aren't important, but I feel like, with a frame, like, there's much less to go on than there is with... Not true. You can have golden-gilded frames. Simple words. Which I know is the one that you prefer. Yeah, I like a golden-gilded frame. You're very decadent in your nose. No, I just like the inside of my home to look like a museum. I bought, you know what, I bought a runner rug the other day. Oh, wow. It's very medieval. Does that mean that it's just a rug? It's not like... It doesn't run. No. No, but as in, you know, when you get those really cool rugs where they have like a brass strip at either end, sort of hold them in place. Oh my god, I would love if they had a brass strip. Can you imagine that? Like an old-fashioned Victorian pub. No, it doesn't have that, but it just runs all the way down like corridor. So it's really long and thin. That's quite cool. It took me a while to find one that was this precise shape. I still haven't been invited to your house, yeah. You have been invited several times. You still haven't functioned there. You haven't come to my house. I invited you to my house very recently and you didn't come. For what? I invited you at the end of the World Cup for dinner. Yeah, but the dinner was canceled. No, it wasn't. Just the other guest didn't come. You could have come many times. Do you want to come to my house? Yeah, please. When do you want to come? I don't know. You'll get back to me. Will you get back to me? Yeah, I'm off for a week soon, so maybe then. Oh, wow, but very vague, isn't it? The thing is, the way that you've responded to me is the way that people respond when they don't want to go on a date. Do you know what I mean? You go, yeah, yeah, I'd love to. Yeah, I'm off for a week soon. I think something about the phases of the moon, I'll get back to you. Depend on the phases of my moon watch, obviously. Oh, I've got something to tell you, by the way. Oh, yeah. By the time Merinia was officially appointed on June 11th, he and Madrid's senior leaders, including Perez, General Manager Jose Angel Sanchez, and Chief Scout Uni Califat, had already set out a strategy on how to respond. I enjoyed the softened G on Angel. Did you? And Angel. He didn't go all the way in, but you did. Jose Angel Sanchez. I never know how to say Uni Califat, or who's Uni Califat, is it Uni? I don't know. Where's he from? I'm guessing that's got to be like dialect name. It's got to be Catalan or Bask. He was born. So he's a scout of Real Madrid. Where was he born? It doesn't say where he was born. There's very little on his Wikipedia page. Never mind. We'll simply never know. I'll carry on, shall I? Yeah, no, dear. The results of their meetings have been playing out over the past few months, as Madrid have made their biggest spend in the transfer market since 2019. Madrid have invested around 260 million euros this summer on six new signings and in paying Benfica to release Merinio from his contract at the Portuguese club. That was 15 million euros, by the way. Former Liverpool centre-back, Ibrahim Okanate and ex Manchester City midfielder, Bernardo Silva, arrived as free agents while a package worth up to 60 million euros was agreed to bring Marc Cucurea in from Chelsea. Yes, John. Something we've been talking about a lot in the Premier League is Premier League to Premier League signings. Yes. This feels like a lot of Premier League to Real Madrid signings. Yes. And obviously, Real Madrid tried to get Rodry as well. That would have been four if they'd have got that one through. Do we think that's interesting in any way? You know, a lot of the conversations that we're having about the Premier League and physicality and stuff like that, and obviously Merinio coming in and sort of having that, maybe that more physical edge as a... Yes, although I would say if we were reading an article about Barcelona's transfer window, then we might say the same thing. I mean, they picked up Marcus Rashford on loan last year. Anthony Gordon has come in this year as well. This must be a record number of Premier League signings to Real Madrid in one window though, surely. Probably. But also, if you look at the specifics here, I mean, Marc Cucurea is a top left-back and he brought him a canate. Although, you know, he's a top centre-back, but he was coming to the end of his contract. He came to the end of his contract, right? They got him. Bernardo Silva is an aging player. Rodry, who they tried to sign, aging player. Some of these are not cast-offs, but like, they're somewhere between good players and cast-offs. So I do wonder if it's less complicated than Joseph Merinio wants to play more physical style. And actually, it's just a lot of the best players are in the Premier League. I mean, I think the most interesting thing about this direction of movement is Erling Holland's 10-year contract. That is the real... If the market continues to grow in the way that we expect it to over a long period of time, which is to say that over the next 20, 30 years, Real Madrid and Barcelona maybe lose their edge in terms of having that historical pull towards South American players or to players all across Europe and just continually money talks. In theory, if everything continues to go in the same direction, it will just go more and more in favour of the Premier League teams. And I think we would look back at the year that Erling Holland signed a 10-year contract. Because don't forget, everybody expected him to move to Real Madrid. Everyone thought when he came from Bristol Dortmund to Man City, he'd be here for a few years and eventually he'll go to Madrid when he's 28 years old. That could still happen. It'd be very hard for Madrid to prize him away given the length of his contract. I think that's the one that maybe, you know, we'd look back on as the kind of... What do they call it? They're not the bellweather. Water. The watershed. The watershed. The watermark, you know, the milestone or A milestone in a slowly shifting, you know, sand and it's tied away from Real Madrid. So this is not a galactico window, then. It almost feels to me like a bit... I don't think these are galacticos. But it feels like a soft galactico thing in terms of, like, they're spending a lot of money to try and catch up with their rivals. Well, let's see. I mean, let me finish this paragraph because there's more people they bought and then let's discuss whether it's a galactica. Okay, I'll pick up from... We just learned about Marc Cucureia. Okay, carrying on. Right back, Denzel Dumfries joined from Inter for 20 million euros. Stryker Carlos S.B arrived from Levante for 25 million euros and Winger Yendi Amanda signed in a deal that could be worth a club record 140 million euros from Arby Leipzig. Yeah. I mean, I guess Yendi Amanda is the... He's a galactico. But also... Even then, it's not really. No, it's sort of... It's like a pre-galactico. It's like a pre-galactico, isn't it? He's not Gareth Bale from Spurs. I guess what would the galactico signings be now? It's like you say, it's Erling Halland. But they're baby galacticos, aren't they? Yeah, Halland is one. And Bapet was one. But and Bapet was coming forever. So, I don't know, you know, he was kind of like a tween galactico. Yeah. I mean, the last... This is junior is a galactico, I think. He is now, but he wasn't when they bought him. No, but he neither was a dreamer. But I'm just trying to think in the market. Like, there aren't actually that many... There's not. And then it's like, Michael Elyse, galactico. And there was talk about... He would be now. Yeah. Yeah. Harry Kane now... Harry Kane probably before... I think Harry Kane's aged out of galactico. Yeah, maybe. He's over, he's too far gone now. And then who else? Bayern don't really have anyone else. And then... Bruno Fernandez is too old to be a galactico, I would say. Yeah. Although, I think a couple of years ago, he's a galactico. Yeah, and I guess, you know, even if they'd gone for him now, that would still feel like a power play move, right? To be like, we can just take Man United's best player and just bring him in. Declan Rice. Yeah. Galactically. Yeah. Yeah. Well, like, again, I can't... I don't know, I just can't really see that happening on a number of levels, right? What, you can't imagine? Declan Rice playing at Real Madrid, I can. Really? I mean, if anything, he's like his perfect destination. He wouldn't have to pretend anymore that he's a six. He could just be who he is. Yeah, maybe. So, I know what you're saying. I don't think this is a galactico window. Yeah. And I think Real Madrid's transfer policy changed four years ago. Yeah. They now buy baby galacticos, and they hope that they grow. I don't think galacticos... Economy exists anymore, right? It's in the sense that like... So galactic rows. Yeah, right. I think they're so rich now. All of the big teams that in the past, it was just Real Madrid could just get anyone they wanted, right? Yeah. And it's like, we'll get those players, and it will happen. Whereas now, it's kind of like... He's spending £116 million on Morgan Rogers, who's not a galactico. Yeah. I know Real Madrid didn't do that. I'm just saying, you know, what world are we living in? Yeah. A confusing one. Shall I carry on? Carry on. Madrid have not recently involved their managers closely in their recruitment process. That changed. Former coaches, Carlo Ancelotti, Javier Lanzo, and Arboloa were not consulted as Merinio has been. Yes, sir. I feel bad jumping in again. No, no, I feel like I've done it a lot at the beginning. But there's lots of interesting things here. And this is another thing we've talked about a lot, right? Which is the increasing frequency with which clubs are just saying fine, you can control... To their managers, you can control the transfer stuff. So Javier Lanzo, who has mentioned here, is not being allowed to do that around Madrid, is doing that Chelsea. Roberto Deserbio is doing it at Spurs. Yeah. And you and I, Emory, is doing it at Villa. Pep Guardiola, I guess, was doing it at City. Yeah. And, you know, even now with Moresco going through, like someone like Enzo Fernandez being signed by then just feels like a manager move, right? So, again, it feels like so much of this is tied up with that tactical shift that we're talking about, where it used to be the case that... I mean, this is broadly speaking. It used to be the case that your manager would sort of have your... over-the-top structural collective idea about what you would do. And if you were really good at that, then you would be one of the better teams. Whereas now it almost feels like that approach has been given up on a little bit. And it's just kind of like, as long as you're competitive and you've got difference-maker players, then you'll be okay. And then as a result, you might as well just get the coach to be like, this is the guy who's going to make a difference in my system, right? I think elite clubs, the sporting director model, is failing or has failed. I think it works if you're Brentford or your Brighton and a Bournemouth or a B club. Any B club, yeah. And essentially... Bristol Rovers. There's not enough... Bristol City. There's not enough speculation about who you are and your team. There's not... Yeah, keep going. There's not enough press, right? No one cares, really, until you get players in and then two years later, they move to Chelsea. So the reality is, you might know, but most people don't know the name of the sporting director at Brentford. And people don't care. So he's not on the front page of the newspaper. Maybe Brentford fans, you know, know his name and are interested. But my point is, you know, we just recorded another podcast. The one that came out earlier on the Thursday evening with Jack Pitbrook and Kaya. And the first part of that show, we were talking about Arsenal. And Andrea Bertas' name came up. And that's a new thing in the last sort of five to ten years that we are talking on a podcast like ours. We're talking with first and second name about the sporting director and deciding whether or not they had a good way. I think we should refer to him as Mr. Bertas. I think we should refer to him as Mr. Bertas. Yeah, out of respect, Mr. Bertas. Senior Bertas. And then the Kale. My point is more, right? Like Andrea Bertas could be relieved of his duty at any time. On the basis that he has or hasn't done a good job. In the same way that the Kale could be relieved of his duty if he does or doesn't do a big job. I think there's just too much, the too many people that are interested in what happens at elite clubs, for there to be any stable element of the structure. And maybe it worked for a couple of years before everyone started to just pay attention and talk about his performance in the window in the same way that we talk about the manager's performance in the season. And the gamers become so much about the transfer aspect, that these guys are just easy scapegoats. If you have a bad season, why not be like, well, you had a bad window, right? This is the argument everyone's having about Liverpool right now. It's just like, since they've had Richard Hughes there, they've just not been as good as they were and they haven't been able to do the... And when you have to change everything all the time in order to keep winning, what's the point in trying to have some kind of stable structure that stays in? But why would you commit 10 years of your club's lifetime to one person without or one structure without any kind of review? And if you introduce a review, then you introduce the possibility that things might change and if you introduce the possibility that things might change, then you take away a big part of what works about the sporting director model or the overarching football leadership model. This is another thing we talked on that podcast, because we talked about how it's what's happened is a shift away from value towards risk. It's all about de-risking now, because money doesn't feel real for the big clubs. So for your Brighton's, you're Brent for the New Bournemouth's, and you're Barcelona's. Barcelona's a team. For those clubs, they have to create value from somewhere, and they do that in the market. But for the teams that we're talking about now, they don't create value in the market. Yeah. They want to create value through their ability to compete. And so they're just going to spend money that doesn't feel real to get the best option. So you're just operating in completely different sort of circuits, right? It's like a real? Yeah, let's do it. Okay. That is probably one of the main reasons why there is a shared sense from Madrid's board to Moreno that this window has been a success and the squad is now ready to compete for every title. Just a reminder, that is referring to the fact that Moreno's had more of a say in transfers than previous managers. At the same time, there's a feeling, among external and internal voices, that the team is still short of one profile in particular, a midfielder capable of dictating the tempo of matches. In that regard, Roddry's preference to join Barcelona has to be considered a blow. Yes, John? I'm just going to be short here, but what I love about these pieces often is that you get sort of lines that are clearly being talked about at the club, where they'll say something like, I've midfielder capable of dictating the tempo of matches. And that's just sort of like the club line. But I was saying, like, it's not just to be clear, it's not a quote, but what you're saying is that it wouldn't have been structured in that way in the piece, if those were the terms that were being used. As in Mario will have spoken to lots of different people involved at the club. And I'm sure that the line, we need a midfielder who's capable of dictating tempo. That will be the sort of line that is being talked about. The recruitment staff will be talking about it. The coaching staff will be talking about it. The agents and everyone involved in that. That's inside. Yeah, but it's funny because it's a very sort of loose line. What does a midfielder capable of dictating tempo actually mean? It's hard to know. And we'll talk about it. If someone's listened to it, as if you were with Andoni Eurel. That's what it means. But we'll talk about this a little bit later. There's a few of these as well. In the next couple of paragraphs of time, they say they want at least one dominant centre-back. Which is when you dig into that a little bit, you're like, well, of course, they want a dominant centre-back. You want to sub-dominant centre-back to be passive. Yeah, exactly. But again, it's not even dominant there. It's not even, you're not even saying active or passive. You're saying whatever they do, you want them to be good at it. But it's kind of like, well, yeah, of course. I just find these sorts of little turns of phrases really interesting because it does, it just sort of represent what the club think that they want without really being in depth in any way, right? Because you could, you know, I mean, they'll probably mention Tony Cross later on because that's what sort of happens. Essentially, what they're saying here is we need someone who did what Tony Cross did. And we don't have that. My favourite thing about what just happened is you used the word sub-dominant. What you were trying to find at Antonin for dominant. Now, here's four that you could have had subordinate. That's the closest to sub-dominant. Yeah. Submissive. You could have had inferior. Well, I think that's a slightly different, you know, lower in status, or minor, a minor sense of act. That's quite like that. We've got a couple of majors sent. Do you know what we need? We need a minor sense of act. One that can also play it right back. It's a different mode, isn't it? It's like the minor key versus the major key. That's right. Okay, I'll pick up, shall I? Yeah. The athletic takes you through the busiest transfer window at Madrid for quite some time. That's like an advert. And there's a dinkus there as well. So there we go. That's dinkus. Now we're into, that was just the intro. Oh my god. Was that the only intro? We're about halfway through. We're about halfway through the podcast as well. Okay, here we go. Madrid and Merino began planning the new squad in early May, initially through the managers agent Jorge Mendes. Is this weird? What's that? Is it George, is George Mendes as well? I just used my self from the Spanish Portuguese thing in the beginning. You had a lot of that today. You did it on the other podcast as well. No, that's George Mendes. What do you mean is it weird? That the managers agent would be planning a club's transfer window? I mean, it would be weird if it wasn't George Mendes, I think. And I don't think so because it's more just a sort of context thing, isn't it? From what we understand, from reading lots of pieces that have been published by the athletic over the last few years, agents like George Mendes sometimes do have close relationships with clubs. Club sometimes go to agents to say, you know the market better than we do in terms of availability or the scaffold butt, as they would have said back in the day. The scaffold butt. You know, what's the scaffold butt? I don't know what that means. You know what a scaffold butt means? Hold on. Let's just get a little definition if I have a scaffold. A scaffold butt means rumour, gossip or idle chatter. What's the etymology of that? Well, I'll tell you what I'll tell you. Etymology of a scaffold butt. A scaffold butt. Rumour or gossip, it comes from a nautical term for a water barrel on a ship. Makes sense. So a scaffold is the small opening or hatch cut into a surface or the act of cutting a hole in something, but an old word for a large wooden cast. It's the second time we've mentioned water butts in this episode. I mentioned it before. Did you? Like fixing water butts like all men do or something? I don't know what all men do. Oh. My dad's always fiddling around with his butt. Really? Yeah. Actually, he had a water butt that he was fiddling around with. Yeah. I was worried about his prostate for example. In 1800s, the physical noun appeared on ships around 1801 to 1805 to describe the dex fresh drinking water cast, the scaffold butt. So presumably it's like the rain is coming in and it's collecting it. But it's like the water cooler. That's what happens to the scaffold butt. What's the scaffold butt? What's the water cooler? There you go. It functions just like water cooler talk in an office building. That's so good. The scaffold butt. That's the problem with you, Joe. You just know all these long words and then me with my small vocabulary I have to just wait for you to explain them all to me. The words I know all come from... Hey, watch the scaffold butt. Right, I'll pick up, shall I. There was a dinkus, there was a scaffold butt. We were talking about George Mendes. Oh yeah. All of these players, George Mendes, client. You're asking me questions I simply couldn't answer. Yeah, I'm not sure that we could even find out in a brief enough time. We probably could, but it's fine. Let's find out. You can find out the agency for a player. Let's just do one of them. Let's do Kukureya. Okay. Kukureya, agent. You can do that on transfer marked. Okay, I'll do on Google. You do it on transfer marked. Player agent is dupla pk and dominges. Right. No, Alex, yeah, Alex pk and Alvaro dominges from the agency dupla. Dupla, yeah. Dupla, agency. Which, what's George Mendes' agency? Uh, yeah, I don't know. It's called Guestafute. Guestafute, yeah. Okay, so Kukureya isn't... Ibrahim Okanate is CAA stellar. So I'm guessing they're not. Let's have a look at Roddry. I play they didn't sign. Of course. Yandia Mandir, of course, is rock nation. So not Guestafute. And it seems like Roddry has his own agent. Right. He's called... Pablo. He's called Roddry go. And when he speaks on the phone, he sounds a lot like Roddry. He says, yes, I will come to the wedding. I will meet the deco at the wedding. Don't you think it would be great to have an agent? I'd love to have an agent. I mean, maybe I'm just talking about a personal assistant. They're not the same thing. They're different, aren't they? Agents take 15% of all your money to clean your house. I think that's how it works. I haven't got one. Anyway, should we carry on? Yeah. Okay. There was an agreement from the outset on the areas in need of strengthening. In line with the club's view, Marinho wanted a second choice right back, to the budget, to provide stiff competition for Trent Alexander Arnold, at least one dominant centre back. There you go. That's what you were at. The dominant centre back. A first class left back, and a creative midfielder. Each of these positions were quickly ticked off. There we go. Now, I'm just going to pause myself there. On the first, because you said the dominant centre back, that's come up. First class left back, I assume they mean a starting player. A creative midfielder, I understand. We'll give that one a buy. But I also like quickly ticked off, because the other interpretation of ticked off is that you're a bit pissed up. These players were all quickly ticked off by being described as a first class left. We'll give that to Marinho. Okay. I'll pick up. The signings of Canate and Dumfries were officially confirmed on June the 18th, and July the 5th, respectively. But both deals have been put into place well before Madrid's presidential election. Soverez voted in again on June the 7th. Dumfries was seen as providing a more defensive fullback option to complement Alexander Arnold's more attacking profile. I find this weird. I don't know. Do you find it weird? I would describe Dumfries as like a wingback, basically. Really? And Alexander, are they saying it's more defensive? I guess because he's better at defending than Alexander Arnold. But for me, that distinction is a weird one, right? I mean, the other way of looking at it is, what do we give it until October before he's starting? I feel like Trent Alexander Arnold is someone that Marinho is not going to... Dumfries was starting in their first two league games. Really? So you're already starting? Yeah. I just feel like Trent is not a player that will be a Marinho favorite. Oh, yeah. But Trent hasn't been starting. But I think he started in the most recent games. So they'll rotate presumably in certain fixtures. Yeah. I think it's funny to describe one as defensive and one as not. Because Dumfries is like a back post-crasher, right? Because Alexander Arnold gets far, far higher up the pitch. It's just that he's not as good at defending as Dumfries is. Okay. Okay, picking up. I guess that makes him more defensive, but... On paper, albeit in different roles, Dumfries and Kanate would fill the gaps left by Danny Carverhal and David Alaba, who left as free agents after not being offered contract extensions. Danny Sabayos left in June too, after agreeing to terminate a contract that was due to run to 2027. Next to fall into place was the signing of Cougarere from Chelsea. Madrid's lightning fast move was the clearest sign of just how serious they were in the transfer window. By beating Barcelona and Atlético Madrid to the punch, they reached an agreement worth 55 million euros, plus 5 million euros in adons for the 28-year-old, despite already having three leftbacks on their books in Alvaro Carreras, Ferlan Mendi and Frank Garcia, who would eventually leave for Real Betis in a switch worth 4 million euros with Madrid retaining a 50% sell-on clause. Yes, Tom? It's nice to see that you've incorporated the correct pronunciation of Alvaro. Alvaro. I used to say Alvaro, but then I became a full-length fan, which I've always been really, and now I know that it's Alvaro. So I'm applying it to Alvaro Carreras, who I'm sure I'm butchering his surname instead. There we go. One thing I wanted to ask here, if we've got time, is Mark Cougarere, he moved to Chelsea from Brighton for 60 million pounds, I recall. What was that two or three seasons ago? And now he's gone to Real Madrid for 60 million euros. So at a little bit of a last, okay, he's 28, so he's a little bit older. But he was a peak player, he was very important for Chelsea last season. Is that a little bit low? Or was it an overpay, do you think? I presume he was low in his contract, maybe I guess he hadn't signed a second contract with Chelsea? I guess that's it, maybe it's just a contract situation. In which case, you know? Not a bad, yeah. I mean, yeah, 55 million euros. If he had a year left on his contract, which, you know, I'm speculating here, maybe he would have had probably would have had two, I guess, because he didn't arrive from Brighton more than four years ago. No, he was three years ago. He was with Graham Potter, which is just not, I mean, no, it was longer, it's longer, isn't it? Three years? We've got two seasons of Morescar, including like the end of last season. And then one of Mauricio Pochettino, and then it's the Potter Lampard random one. Yeah. So that's four years ago. So I guess he joined in 2022. So he probably did only have a year left on his contract. Yeah. 115 appearances. That's a lot more than I thought. Yeah, he was only at Brighton for one season. Okay. All right. Well, there we go. So then not, yeah, not so bad for a, for a perhaps a year left on the contract. Right. If only there's a way we could find that. We could have just Googled. Despite rejecting the option, months before, Madrid moved ahead of Barcelona and Etletico, again, with the signing of Benado Silver after the 32-year-old left Manchester City. This arrival had an impact on Nicol Paz. Yes, John. 32 years old is his old, isn't it? That's old, yeah. I mean, I don't like to say it because I'm older than that. I would say as far as football has gone. Yeah, yeah. At the elite level, it is old. And they got him on a free, did they? Yes, he left. He left Manchester at the end of his contract. Yeah. So he arrived on a free. Although it is worth saying in these scenarios that when a player leaves club at the end of their contract and then joins on a free transfer, that often doesn't mean that the club doesn't pay any money. It's just that they pay the money to the player. Yeah. You get these big signing on bonuses. I don't know whether Benado Silver commanded one or not. But one of the reasons that there was an expectation a couple of years ago that players might actually start to wind down their contracts completely and move was because there was the possibility that when Killingham back they moved to Real Madrid, they might earn an enormous signing on bonus for doing so without a transfer fee required to the club. I guess they do that because then it reduces the way which reduces the wage budget as well slightly, right? Because if you... I don't know that if you were to put it entirely in wage budget. Oh, sure. Then you would, like, ruin the wage structure. Right. Do they call it the wage structure? I don't know. I don't know because I would have thought by all ways of accounting for the spending that those kinds of spends would still be included. I don't know. It's a good question, isn't it? Well, if only there was a way for us about... We haven't got time. Let's move on. We'll learn this before the next time. Yeah. Okay, here we go. The 21-year-old Argentinian midfielder, that's Nico Paz, by the way, who we're talking about, was expected to return to the Bernabéu via a buyback clause of around 9 million euros that was included in his August 2024 sale to Italian club Como. However, a conversation between Paz and Marino left both parties cold. That's a bad conversation, isn't it? Both parties cold. And the option of Bernardo Silva led to Madrid and Como instead renegotiating the terms of their agreements. Can I pause myself and ask at this stage, this is the kind of detail that seems small fry in the moment when Marino is at the club and they're signing Bernardo Silva. And then in two or three years' time, when Nico Paz is doing amazing somewhere, and Bernardo Silva is dead because he was 34 years old. We look back on it and we go, oh yeah, that's quite a Marino thing to do, isn't it? It's to ignore this player, this younger player that perhaps isn't as experienced or trustworthy, but maybe we would grow into something and instead to sign a 32-year-old midfielder who Manchester City didn't want anymore. It's a very short termis, right? Like, if we talk about Marino's stint of Real Madrid the first time round, he arrives in 2010, he wins the league the next season, and then has what he describes later on as the worst season of his career to that point, the following season. Yeah. This is what you get with Marino. It's like, it's a burst to the line to try and get over it. Yeah. And it feels like, yeah, the combination of things here on the one hand, bringing in a 32-year-old to win now. The paragraphs go on to say that what Madrid have done is they've extended. Why don't you read the paragraph? A left or from cold. Pick up from the option to buy. Yeah. And the option of Bernardo Silva led to Madrid and Como instead renegotiating the terms of their agreement. Madrid said they expect to receive 60 million euros from that with their previous buyback and sell-on clauses removed. They now have a new buyback option at 80 million euros. So I've got a note here just saying, this almost feels like they're future-proofing for Marino. And they're sort of saying, OK, well, in the immediate term, he's not going to want him. But let's at least give ourselves the option at some point of bringing him back. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's please the old bull now. But let's keep the young bull. Which I think is interesting, right, to have that kind of... I mean, I guess they would just argue we're just doing smart business here. I guess so. It does... I guess if they're like, we won't have Marino for the next 10 years. Yeah. And he doesn't like this guy and they've been left cold in their conversation. Would you bother putting that kind of... Well, I guess also, another way of thinking about it. I was thinking when we were talking about the Marino short-termism moments ago. What's the value in not being short-termist anymore? I mean, if we just talked about how, like, Premier League clubs have spent, you know, multiple hundreds of millions of pounds or 100 million pound players, whatever, they've got the money to do it. These Super League clubs all have the money to do it. They can cover up for their own mistakes and more so. So actually, what's the point in ever doing anything that isn't buying now unless it was truly unaffordable? Unless you're like, you know, Baby Galaxico is fine. Get Venice's junior when he's 20 years old because he's completely not unaffordable. He's ungetable at 25, as Arsenal have discovered. But beyond that very, very top layer, why not just focus on today? I guess I'm thinking of any other examples we have with that. And I suppose the prime example is Paul Pogba, right? Yeah. Where Manu and I had sold him onto Juventus and then bought him back. And I guess at the time people were saying, oh, typical Manu and I did. It feels as though we now live in a realm where that sort of happens quite regularly. It's normal. Yeah, which is why you have these buyback clauses inserted now. They did let him go for free and then bought him back for a hundred million pounds, which is not like great business. Wasn't it 18? Was it 18? I don't know. But he's up there in terms of inflation-adjusted transfers. Yeah, yeah. Point being, like, this is not the same as the Nico Paz thing. Yeah, given that they're selling in what was for 60 million. They basically would give Comos money back plus 20 million euros to have him. Yeah, yeah. Not so bad. No. Okay, carrying on. Many other names were linked with Madrid. Moreno's favorite option was Enzo Fernandez, despite club sources denying it. That's funny, isn't it? It feels like no one wants to be associated with Enzo. No, no, no. We don't want him. We didn't really like him. Yeah. Days after the athletic reported that his arrival was unlikely, Madrid stated in an official press release that they had no interest in the midfielder, who eventually joined Manchester City for a joint British transfer record fee of £125 million on deadline day. Another player, Marinho liked, was Mateus Fernandez. But the club would have never gone close to the £85 million that Tottenham Hotspur paid West Ham United. Yes, John. That also sounds very much like the club saying they weren't ever interested in Enzo Fernandez, right? Because I'm sure they... I mean, they've spent that kind of money before. Or maybe they don't want to play like Mateus Fernandez. It's like getting turned down by like... Well, you would never do that. No, no, no, yeah. Well, even if you were, it's like you get turned down by someone that you might have a sexual interest in. And then they go with someone else. And then afterwards, your friend's tea student, you go, you know, come on, they were no more than a six. Listen, of course I would have done it. I would have done it because it was tired that night. And you know, I would have thrown them a bone. But no, no, no, just a six. But I'm sure there's like conversations there where they're like, oh, you know, these premises spending so much money in this kind of like, well, yeah, I guess, of course. Okay. There was much talk during the 2026 World Cup about Morocco's 18-year-old midfielder, Ayub Buwadi. He too would join Manchester City, signing from Leal in a deal worth up to 100 million euros. Madrid had been monitoring him since before his breakthrough at this summer's tournament, but did not yet consider him ready to make that big leap. Yes, John? I actually think he probably is ready to make this big leap. Well, from what we've seen though. On the basis of what we've seen so far from Manchester City. Yeah, and you know, I think the LaLiga would have been a perfect development ground for him in that respect as well. But again. What because it's a lot easier. Well, yeah, I think that the intensity of the game is probably slightly low, which I think. I was just being rude. I mean, no, I mean, I think I'm going to treat your question as though a serious. Yeah. But yeah, I think we've seen enough to suggest that he is going to be there and there about in the Premier League, which makes me think that he'd be finding LaLiga. But again, if Marina wants this win now, mentality, you can't take any risks, right? Sure. You want to bring in those ready-made pieces. Yeah, you just instead just don't get a central midfielder, I think. All right. No risk in that. After turning down several offers to sign him in previous months, Madrid changed their stance on Roderie as he led Spain to win the World Cup. Talks were opened with the players camp, and they were confident of reaching an agreement with Manchester City as well, until Roderie chose Barcelona. Prior to that, Madrid felt something wasn't entirely going well, and asked people with close ties to Roderie and his entourage to sound out the situation. The saga attracted a great deal of attention, not only from outside, but also from within. People involved in Madrid's day-to-day running, as well as others close to the players, felt Roderie was the missing piece of the puzzle, and were so keen to find out more that they were even asking journalists what was going on. Even journalists. Even journalists. Who was we know, no, nothing. Yeah. Once it became clear the plan was falling through, Madrid changed their strategy. Now a player would have to be sold for another to be signed. Yesterday. I didn't really understand this. Neither do I. Okay. Neither do I. I assume Roderie's transfer fee wouldn't have been relatively minimal, although actually Barcelona paid what? Six. They paid quite a lot of money, didn't they? Yeah. So once it became clear the plan was falling through the plan for Roderie, they changed their strategy. Oh. Hang on. It carries on here. We should have carried on reading, should we? Yeah, we probably should. That seemed inconsistent, given that Morenia wanted another midfielder and that Madrid had tried to sign Roderie. It was also striking because of a consensus that the team needed a player capable of dictating the tempo of the game. That's way no. Something that previous coaches, Carlo Montellotti and Javier Lanzo had also asked for. Tony Crosse. Tony Crosse. Can we get Tony Crosse? But 10 years younger. Madrid were open to offers for Eduardo Camavinga and Raúl Asensio, but neither showed any indication of wanting to leave. In terms of the attack, the athletic reported in June that Morenia was interested in signing a number nine and that we've moved on. I didn't read it in a way that we had, but let me pick that up again. And so that everyone will understand from listening to the way that I say it, that we've moved on. Ready? Let me have a quick drink. This is watching a voice actor at the highest levels. Okay. They're applying their trade. Now, what I'm about to do is going to, it's going to convict, and you'll see when it happens, it might initially seem strange, but you'll see when it happens. It will come out great in the edit. Yeah, like how I'm just indicating with a little bit of my voice, a little inflection. Influxion. Influxion. That I've started a new bit now. Okay. In fact, a whole new chapter. Ready? In terms of the attack, the athletic reported in June that Morenia was interested in signing a number nine in the mold of Harsaloo who had a big impact in the backup role at Madrid during the 2023-24 season. A lot of respect for you to carrying on reading in that voice. I just wanted you to know that I'd started a new bit. Yeah, I got it. I think the audience will pick up on that. I think they will as well. Yeah. Yeah. It was not a major priority, however. I'm kidding. I won't do that the whole time. It was not a major priority, however. It was decided. Well, this is the same section, isn't it? Yeah. Because I feel like the cues that you gave me in the previous paragraph and now no longer there, and I'm a little bit lost at sea. They're not there. Hang on. Let me find a different way of just being able to show you. Okay. Ready? Now, this is going to be more subtle. This is more subtle than last time, John. I'll change from one into the other. So it was not a major priority, however. Okay. And it was decided that another striker would have to be sold in order to accommodate the request. Gonzalo Garcia's 40 million euro departure to full 40 million euros departure. I know because the departure is 40 million euro. So it's fine. Okay. Gonzalo Garcia's 40 million euro departure to Fulham, now led by former Madrid boss Alvaro Abeloa, unlocked the situation, paving the way for Espie's arrival. Signing a right winger was not initially among Madrid's priorities either, but as the weeks went by, a belief that an improvement was needed gained ground. This began to take further shape after the World Cup, when the Athletic revealed that Madrid had entered the race for Airby Leipzig's Diamande. Liverpool first and then PSG had been well positioned, but the Spanish club ultimately succeeded by agreeing a deal that could be worth up to 140 million euros. Yes, John. I guess this is why it sort of felt like a galactico window to me because it's like how many times are you saying here, oh, this thing happened, and then they decided that this is who they wanted to go for us. Like, Roger had a good World Cup, so they sort of went for him, and then it's like, oh, Diamande, you know, what did they say? Oh, yeah, again, the World Cup sort of influenced their views on it a little bit more. So maybe what we're saying then is that there are elements of a galactico window without necessarily the galacticos together. Yeah, well, like maybe what this is what a galactico window looks like in the modern. But that makes me feel quite negatively about their window because I don't think they've signed any galacticos. Yeah, that's true. But they've done it in a galactico window. I guess the thing here is it's just if your recruitment is manager-led, then it's going to end up being way more nimble than it is if it's a recruitment department. Well, it's going to be about a guy that the guy's seen. Yeah, right, exactly. He's not going to be, oh, I was playing football manager, and I looked through all of the databases, and I love this guy. He's going to be like, I can only watch so many football. Yeah, I watch the World Cup. I'm not a team of 50 people. Yeah. I can't cover all these areas. Okay, picking up. Some at Madrid regarded Vinicius Jr.'s contract extension until 2032 as another success on par with a major signing. The 26-year-old Brazilian was very tempted to join Arsenal, but protracted negotiations eventually resulted in the wing of renewing at the Bernabéu. Alongside all these signings, Rail Madrid generated significant revenue through player departures, salon clauses for previous sales, and the Passery Negotiation with Como. The total stands at around 190 million euros, including that 60 million euros over Pass. Victor Munoz's move to Liverpool falls into that second category. Madrid stand to earn up to 20 million euros from the deal, thanks to a 50% salon clause they included, when selling him to Ossasuna last year. That's the end of the piece. That was by Mario Cortajana. I've questions for you, though, John. Yeah, I thought we should talk a little bit about how they've done so far and what we expected to look like a bit. I would like to do that. I would also. I was looking back over Marino's time at Rail Madrid last time, when he arrived back in 2010. Famously at the time, he was considered the antidote to Guardiola. It was early on in Guardiola's managerial tenure, so it wasn't as though the football that he was playing with that Barcelona side had changed the world in the way that it has done now, the football world. But my question is, if he was the antidote then, and he did manage to win a league during that time. Now, 15 years later, we've sort of seen the real antidote, which is a bit of tactical diversity, some chaos a bit of man-to-man pressing, not saying that Marino did any of that, but one simplified way of looking at it is that what a lot of teams are doing is low-block and counter-football, and Joseph Marino did really good job of low-block and counter-football. In fact, there was a game in 2010, who was in that bad season. I know it was the one before, actually. A way at Barcelona, it was the first Barcelona game that their players, when Joseph Marino was the manager, they actually ended up losing 5-0, and Marino caused it the worst game of my career. But the plan was to low-block and counter against what Guardiola was doing, which is kind of what teams are doing now. And one thing to add in that season, the next one that you mentioned was Marino's, the one he said was his worst ever. There's a great quote from Real Betis' coach Pepe Mel. I was going to say the worst season so far. The worst season so far. Do you remember this quote? So this came from a 1-0 loss to Real Betis against Real Madrid. It was in the middle of a terrible season. They were losing a lot of games. And Pepe Mel said, we tried to make sure that Madrid had the ball because that way they harmed themselves. And that, again, that feels a lot like what's happening now. So if he was the antidote then, can he not be the antidote now? Like, why does it not work now? Well, I mean, the peak 15 years too early? You can make the argument that the tactical landscape is sort of evolves back around to what he's doing. And, you know, I keep banging on about this, I'll tell you a quote from... I can't remember which Spanish outlet it was, but it was from January earlier this year, where he says the game now sort of largely teams cancel each other out in terms of the system stuff. Right. And so the differentiating factor now is the players who can have those game-defining moments as he describes them. Which sounds like a very marina thing. And, you know, I don't think that's ever gone away, right? I think, and I think that's why Marino at Real Madrid is going to be so interesting. I think Marino at any other club, you could probably make the argument, okay, he'll probably, you know, it'll be like what Marino at Roma and there'll be some periods of okay success, probably the overall picture will be, I probably should have done better. Yeah. When you put them into a club like Real Madrid where, yes, you're playing low-block encounter largely, when you have like, Killian and Bapa in Vinicius Jr. in that kind of environment. Yeah. Which, as we saw, you know, largely under Carlo Ancelotti, which isn't say that Carlo Ancelotti was playing low-block encounter football, but he was playing, I would say from a collective point of view, sort of relatively, he would give the team a very basic out of possession shape to work on and they're not controlling the game without the ball. They have obviously these ideas of how to get the players associated together when they were going forward. And they were, you know, they weren't just about on the right side of the balance to be able to win stuff in that way. And I think, you know, it came into their own in knockout tournaments like the Champions League, which is why, you know, they were very successful in the Champions League. Actually, weren't that successful in the league with Ancelotti. I think the same sort of thing probably happens a bit with Marino. You know, you're talking about a team that they're just outlier, talented. And I think the really interesting conversation is going to be what happens now that Barcelona have got Hansi Flick, who's sort of doing the, actually we're doing systems stuff to try and get the most out of the players are disposal. And I suppose in theory, that's because, you know, they haven't been able to just spend the money that they might want to because of their ongoing financial difficulties versus Arral Madrid, where it's like, we still have the ability to spend this amount of money and it doesn't really hurt us. How does that iron out? Where does that plateau out at? So yeah, I think it comes with things. Who's the answer to who? Yeah. But I also think that it's, you know, there's an argument to be made that if the game has become a lot more open and it does come down to, you know, individuals making the differentiating factor, that suits a team like Arral Madrid. And a lot of the conversations we've been having over the last five years on this have been, oh, can Arral Madrid ever sort of embrace modern football? And it feels almost as though everyone else has sort of done the embracing of modern football for them and they've collapsed the game back down into relative chaos as well. So yeah, Duke's trousers will always come back into fashion. That's what we're saying. That's what we're saying. Yeah. Okay, should we finish there? I think we should end on Duke's trousers, yeah. Thanks, John. Thank you. And thanks to producer Paul. Thanks, Paul. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
