The Efficiency Paradox: Tactical Automation, Algorithmic Failure, and Systemic Decay

The Athletic FC Hello and welcome to the TFO football podcast. I'm Joe Devine and today I'm delighted to be joined by JJ Ball. Good afternoon. Robin Pinder. Hello. And Jack Pitbrook. Good afternoon. All right. Well, he has it going. Fine. Yeah. Well, you weren't sure what to say there, were you? I didn't know if you were with the genuine ass. Yeah, I know. It's hard to know sometimes. You did change your tone really quickly from... I was trying to get... To genuine. That's it, yeah. Well, I can do that. I've got it in my creative lexicon, you know. How's your father? Big fan of his. Anyway, how's Steve? You're here as well. Good morning. Yeah, there you go. Right. What else is happening on today's TFO football podcast show? Well, we start, of course, with a shock victory for wolves over Liverpool. Very exciting. We've discussed the Renaissance under Rob Edwards, even though his side are probably probably still doomed. Do I secretly find joy in being annoyed? Well, a little Freudian slip when reading an Anna Slot quote brings that one to the surface. Mother! Speak. Speaking of Slot, speaking of Slot, we speak about if his candor in press conferences is a sign that he'll move on from Liverpool during the summer. Who could say? For a break, we play a rondo. Now, I don't want to give away, but could anybody claim Kairz, a rondo del Rey crown? Well, we'll find it. It's a good one today. It's a very, very good one today. Stick around for that. Post-Rondo, of course, we talk about Tom Hotsper versus Christopher Palace, a small bird themed script line creates an unintended diversion, right, Steve, into the surprising wildlife around the vast metropolis of London. People really should watch that David Attenborough program, by the way. It's 100%. Go home and watch it. Okay. To watch a seagull draw in another creature. Well, now, in maybe in Attenborough's younger days, the pigeon would have died, but Attenborough doesn't. It just shows you the peril. Do you think in the legal of the carative of Attenborough, are we? Probably. I'd say he doesn't weigh a lot anymore. I think his bones are hollow now. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he's very old. He is very old. Yeah. He's in his 90s, isn't he? That is old. Yeah. It is old. Watching him present from his garden is just magic. It's magical. It's love. He's got seagulls drowning stuff in his garden. They bring the wildlife there. Now they... How far back... That's true. Come on, Britain. Bring me the wildlife. Let them loose. How far back does the malaise Tottenham find themselves in begin? Well, we go back to those heady days of the title challenge under Bochettino to try and find answers with Jack. And to end, we head to North Wales and look ahead to Rexon playing Chelsea at the weekend and their potential promotion all the way to the Premier League. We discuss that. And that's it. Apart from this last little bit here, I saw. Now you said before, Ruben, what did you say? I was very good at switching tone, very quickly well. It's going to be important there. It's going to be important here because Discord user Joe, not me a different Joe, sent a little note in the Pets channel saying that Joe had to say goodbye to the 16-year-old cat poppy on Wednesday, very sad. So I thought I would include here that we all wish poppy, a fine cat Valhalla and Joe, you know what, I was thinking, what can a cat do in Valhalla, apart from hunt with... With... If alkyrie. Cats, knees will no longer ache, will they? When you said Valhalla, my first thought was what you were going to put it in a little coffin and then push it along the river and set fire to the coffin. No, well, I mean, Joe can do, I'm sure I know... Viking burial for the cat. You don't know what the rules are on disposing of animal carcasses, but probably not allowed to do that, I would say. Could you do that? I don't think so. But assuming that you don't have to do that to get into Valhalla, you know... Would I be allowed to put a cat into a box set fire to it and push it over like the lick and nearer I live? I don't think so. I'm pretty sure you couldn't do that. Can't do that. I don't think you could. No. Yeah. But anyway, sorry, you cats dead there, Joe. Rest in peace, Poppy. Rest in peace, Poppy. Rest in peace, Poppy. And may Poppy enjoy many fine hunts in the afterlife. Well, where else to begin, of course? Then with Wolves 2, one Liverpool, what a shocking result that was from last night. Right, Steve, Liverpool suffered the biggest indignity of an already-adject season on Tuesday evening, losing to bottom of the table side. Wolves, Rodrigo Gomez, of course, gave Wolves the lead in 78 minutes as a Liverpool were chasing a goal themselves. Mo Salas scored in the Premier League after a 10-game draft, I think hasn't scored since November. How's he for them? Obviously, he was away in January for Africa Cup of Nations. But that's a long-old draft, his longest in the Premier League. That was an equalizer. But careless passing out from the back right, Steve, so Andrew Gomez scored a 94th-minute winner for the boys in older gold. It's kind of in some ways. Wolves are pretty much already relegated, J.J. In fact, I heard earlier that opt-as-super-computer gave them a 100% chance of relegation. It must be 99-point roundup, because I think this is not mathematically certain. Well, we know we can't trust the robots. Absolutely. We know that for sure. Maybe this one, though. This one's... No, I don't think we can trust any of them. You've heard it here first, J.J. Bulls says, you cannot trust opt-as-super-computer. Any robots? Any robot. But what I will say is that even though they are almost certainly relegated already, it's kind of quite a nice story for manager Robert Woods, isn't it? Who got... I remember quite a lot of shit for leaving Middlesbrough in November, going to join the team that he has supported. And they only had two points when he joined on the 12th of November, and they have 16 now. That's a lot more than two. Two wins in a row. They've been asking for the other day as well. Are you happy for him? I am happy for him. I think it's nice. They have some decent players as every team in that league does. So I thought they would pick up far and more. There was no way there was bad as the Derby team that got... What was it? 11? Yeah. Yeah, it's nice he supports them as well. Obviously, there was a controversy, because Middlesbrough missed out on their man, and they looked good for promotion, but they've turned into one of the new hipster's favorites. Middlesbrough. They're not even... Yeah. They've heard big things. How far did you get? I watched half of it. Two older beer hipster. First half. That's it. You've aged out of hipsterdom. I don't think you can age out of it. I think you can. I don't know. I think some people think you can't, but I think most people think you can. Well, what do you become? Do you still do the same things you did? Uh, stayed. I think. Stayed. I think, yeah. Sort of. I'm trying to think of a kind of... It's a stayed. You know the kind of people that, you know... Nothing less cool than somebody clinging onto their hipster years. Peter Pan syndrome. Peter Pan syndrome. There you go. The old J.M. Barry. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, but then that's... If you... I mean, that's a strange book, really. Would you think what Peter Pan is? It's pretty odd, yeah. Yeah. Pretty odd. What about wolves, though? Were they good for it last night? You watched them against Liverpool. I watched them against Liverpool. Uh, that game was f***ing awful. I heard it was pretty boring until the first go. Every game last night, when we recorded it, it was dreadful to watch. It was one chance from the first half in the Highlights Package on YouTube. 23 seconds into the Highlights Package. It goes, whoa, second half. Just like, it's just so boring. Just two teams just canceling to their out. Yeah. A red-old Liverpool player, as it would have said, they didn't start well enough. They didn't have enough energy. And that's kind of what you saw. But I think this is what keeps happening. The league moment is teams are canceling to their out by marking to their really well. So no one wants to take a risk. No one's able to dribble it past anyone because everyone's too fast. So you can't outrun someone. No one wants to make the pass. It's going to open it up because then you get shouted out and you end up conceding, which is, I guess, how they lost the game. Well, the last goal is Curtis Jordan's plays a, which is a really bad pass. Right. And then Alison plays an even worse clearance. But I would blame, I don't believe, well, it's George's fault. Who would you blame? Who's to blame? Society, I think. Yeah, probably. They're robots. There is a case that Kiezer and Réa and Gamar could have done more to close down the walls player who took the shot in. I think a lot of stuff goes wrong after the Jones pass. The Jones is catching a lot of flack on Twitter for this. But I think, I think Jones, I mean, he, he, he sets up, he can't have known that Alison was going to skew his clearance that bad. No, of course not. So I think, I don't know, I'm on, I've got sympathy with Curtis Jones on this one. Right. Who do you blame, Jack? Not Curtis Jones. No, okay. It's a combination that Alison kick and then like a series of other bad bits of defending that happened afterwards. Yeah. But when you're set up to be, when you're so automated and so structured, and when one thing goes wrong, it's like, oh, I don't know what's going on now. I need to be able to, you know, you can't work at what to do in that moment because you're not prepared for it. So that's when things happen. It's when no one takes the risks. So if you don't have any dice rolling, if you just make it, it's always going to be a three, always a four, then there's no one like worry about it. And so, yeah, that's what happens with it. I think it was good that we'll score the winner. Sure. It's very funny. The game, like I said, was so boring until the final 10, 12 minutes and then it was ace. Yeah. Um, was it on a slot, came out and said that he's not, doesn't enjoy the Premier League anymore? Did you say that? Yeah. He's not really enjoying it. And it's not fun to watch. I agree. I've been saying that for ages. I really respect him for saying that. Yeah. I think there are too many, I feel like too many managers stick up for the product. Got it. And also too many managers in press conferences, all they think about is like, how do I defend my position? How do I defend my team? Yeah. I mean, enough of them speak from the heart as football fans. Well, here's what he said, actually, before you guys continue talking to us, we said, first of all, you have to accept it. He said, do I like it? Well, my football heart doesn't like it. If you ask me, thinking about football, I think about the Barcelona team from 10 to 15 years ago. Now, most of the games I see in the Premier League are not for me a joy to watch, but it's always interesting because it's so competitive. Everyone can win against everyone, but just as someone who loves to watch football without being interested in who is winning or losing just to be annoyed. I think there's a big difference. Just to be enjoyed. Oh, just to be enjoyed. Sorry. Well, it's interesting that I read a knowledge, isn't it? It's fascinating. Very fascinating. I think there's a big difference between now and three and three or four years ago in the Premier League. Sorry, Jack. Yeah, I think we need more of this. I think we need more managers speaking from the heart about football and just kind of standing up for football. I feel like a lot of managers, you know, like the nature of football is that people get so trapped in this box of like defending themselves and saving face and stuff. It's actually good to have somebody talking, somebody in a role that big with such a big platform, talking up for the game itself. Yeah. No, I think that's fair. I mean, obviously, even Mick Alartetta sort of talked about this after the game on Saturday. Yeah. I was going to say this. Yeah. You made kind of a comment about it. Well, I can't really go into that. Well, he is basically going into the reason there are some of the play in the way they are is because that's the way you have to play. That's what the meta has become. Sure. The phrase we keep using in the office. Yeah. You have to get it set pieces now because everyone's a marketing man to man. There's no real space. And because the so that the ceilings got higher and primarily because the floor has been raised so high. So everyone's really good. Like everyone is so fast. Everyone is so strong. And like every single jewel is like a battle you have to win. And so when one thing goes wrong, it's why nothing happens anymore. Everyone's so good and so rivaled. You can't run anyone. I saw there were some statuists who they the commentator said that one of the rules players is like the fastest in the league or something like that. It's like 37 miles an hour or something. Obviously not that. But maybe he could. He's like a T-Rex. Yeah. Exactly. We clock the T-Rex at 35 miles an hour. Exactly. Actually, I think it's rich. That in Britain says that in English accent. I don't know. Yeah. Some of that. A lesson of mine. That's when he goes into the Lost Raptors Act. In English. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Clever girl. Yeah. Exactly. Well. That was the hunter not taking it in, bro. I've watched Jurassic Park a lot. No, I know. We've moved a lot. What are we saying? Something about T-Rex has been fact. Oh, yeah. This guy is faster than the T-Rex. Oh, yeah. And so I'm like, that would probably be good if you played in the Netherlands or something. Right. Which is where I know slots that he likes watching football still. Sure. Because then there's players who he will not be as fast as him that he can zoom past. But now everyone's the same. And so it's kind of the same. Yeah. I think I was talking to John about this last night. And in fact, we touched on this a little bit on Monday's show as well. I think his, I sort of agree with everything that's being said. But I personally, I don't enjoy watching this football as much as other types. And that's not to say that it will continue to be like this forever. I'm sure it will evolve and adapt on. And it's no one to watch the big games. It's still exciting. That's true. Absolutely. That in the stakes are still making it entertaining. Yeah, they can do. But then I think that I think John's fear, as he explained it, is that let's say, you know, we are, okay, we'll sit through this era and wait for it, wait for teams to kind of work out special ways to counter this and move on and wait for the game to evolve into something else. And his specific fear is that unless there's some kind of rule change, which for the record, he's not saying there should or shouldn't be, that probably the only way that we kind of optimize further is into more set pieces. And if you can score goals in the way that asked or do with set pieces, and you don't really, you're also optimizing towards that makes it harder to play in open play, then that sort of feels like that might not quite be in the spirit of football. If you're forcing everything into set plays, it feels like it becomes a little bit more like an American sport. Well, I was going to see, it's has to be an American sport and a little bit less like what maybe what most people like about football. Yeah. And also because the league has become the NBA. Sure. So it is the super league release of what you've got in England now. So all of that makes absolute sense. It's also worth saying, and this is more of a personal thing, since we did Monday's show, I've just been in and dated with messages specifically from Arsenal fans who make the complaint. Oh, as soon, you know, people complain for years and years that Arsenal weren't strong enough in the tackle and didn't have enough guile, and now they have it, although we want to change the rules and take it away, I understand why fans feel that that's unfair. I don't care who's winning. I'm literally uninterested that it's Arsenal who are doing this. I also, I've watched so many Premier League games recently where specifically what happens at corners is I find it's just appalling. And I think Arsenal are the best at that. And therefore are winning. And totally sure, right? They should win the league on the basis of being the best at this thing. It's a rule change. You know what? It's almost like it's a elite mid table football. Sure. So I used to always hate when the game would have to cover would be, I mean, I want to say hate to mean reason, but if it's someone like the old Arsenal villa versus the old Everton, they're like, oh, this is going to be two people smashing in the middle. Classic Barclays for ever. Yeah, just nothing happens. Oh, this is not, I don't want to watch this. I want to watch the pretty passes of the lovely dribbles and stuff like that. I know, they're not so negative and some people say it's subjective. In this conversation, I am quite aware of the fact that people always nostalgiaize for the football that happened 10 years ago, like the mid 2010s were fun. I enjoyed them. But like the Jose Maria Chelsea didn't want to league in 1415, weren't amazing for the judges. Definitely. Definitely give the ball to Hazard. But the other day, somebody, there was a clip doing around doing the rounds on social media, which was. Do you remember that absolutely brilliant city Liverpool game in kind of Jan Feb 2019, the one, one, two, one, two stones clear off the line? And that was, you know, the two best teams of the 21st century. It's kind of now widely considered the best Premier League game of all time. Yeah, between the two best teams in the modern era. Yeah. And but what people put a clip on was corners in that game, and there's no silliness at all. There's no kind of meat wall, as it's now called whatsoever. Like it's literally just like the ball comes in and then all the different guys try and head it. Yeah. Without trying to, without any of the grappling. Yeah. And I watched it. And I thought, well, and this is obviously before the penny dropped and before people realize, oh, we can, we can push the boundary here. We can take advantage of the Lax refereeing and just turn this into a scrum. Sure. And when I watch that, I thought, we can get back to this. There's no reason. Yeah. Like all they have to do is change the laws, or force the laws, because the point is they did change the laws at the beginning of the season. And then they were like, nothing really changed, there's not been that many penalties given for them. This is kind of why I think the panic about the style is slightly overblown, because it will inevitably change. And like, just because everybody's playing a certain way, I know you kind of have to respond to your opponent and everything, but it doesn't mean you have to copy them. No. And those freakishly good super teams were like, you know, outliers. Absolutely. But if referees started giving, in the last like three weeks alone, there could have been like five, six penalties for. Yeah. If they just start giving them, maybe they'll stop doing them. So to understand it's difficult to implement that midway through a season. And I understand you spoke about this in quite a lot of depth on Monday. No, no, we didn't really get to this point specifically. And the last thing I'll say in any way is like, I think looking back in time, looking at these bigger games from 10, 5 years ago, is a good point to make, because you know, the comparison that like some fans today might make is like, well, what about Manchester City with tactical fouls, for example, or what about like merino parking the bus or like any example of a historical team, even that Barcelona team that was amazing had boring games. Of course they had boring games. The specific problem here is that the optimization that teams have been getting so efficient now is set pieces. It stops the game. It's boring. It's not interesting to watch. And it's like, there are ways and means of like of trying to find advantages in open play. I think tactical fouls is maybe the closest argument you could make because you know, you're gaining an advantage by having so many players forwards without having to worry too much about rest defense because you're going to take, you know, you're going to take a tactical foul. The difference is how many yellow cards that we see Fernandino get, like he was pretty good at avoiding that. But like the players take a yellow card for a tactical foul. You can make an argument about whether the trade off there is okay. Is it okay that they're getting all this attacking advantage without having to worry about the defensive side of it and in the exchanges just to get a card, maybe, maybe not. But the problem at corners is like, we're not seeing any yellow cards for holding. We're not seeing anything. We're seeing goals being given for something that most people think is should should be against or is against the rules and just isn't being enforced. You know how you said John's greatest fear is that he said this greatest fear is that the teams would all become like this. Yeah. Mine is the meat wall. Right. That was a phrase. I mean from Michael Kaylee, I hope I haven't miss a tribute of it, but it's I think it's a really good way of understanding or really good way of thinking about how ugly that element of modern football is. I don't think people should be I don't think people should be afraid of saying it's ugly and they don't like watching it. Like it's ultimately this is better take the sport, right? And it's it's also cynical and like what was crucially crucially the meat wall is different to the love train. Yeah. I know Sebastian Stafford Blorn made an awful comparison on Monday's show comparing England's tactics at a 2018 World Cup to the shocking crimes against humanity that we see us not come in. Now three players on the same team standing behind one another and then running off in different directions to score headers is not the same thing. I actually think England are partly responsible for the state of all this football because that worked really well in that world. Yeah. And the other thing as well. England is partly responsible for the state of dot dot dot is a great and I feel like you could say it almost any comment. I guess so. And the context of just football that England team associated that you know doing all the love train. Yeah. Yeah. They were so boring. It was so boring. They were so boring. Like yeah. They were so boring. Very nice international football. We all agree. The rules are different there. Yeah. Well, the last thing I want to say on this whole thing is that like Rubin's dead right it will be cyclical like it always is the natural response to people play 4 4 2s is to go to a 3 and like Serie A already did this whole man marking thing to death in the 60s with the cat and that show they all stood it like I think it was not too long ago with everyone's one man to man it slowed everything down. And the way you pull that apart is where they can't remember the name of the manager so I'm not going to go into it. But you just move people around. And you lose a rake. Yeah. Right. Well, that's one example of it. Yeah. But you can even go full circle back to what Venger did with Arsenal where you have loved people close together. So you get that nice little bounce passes and then you can play through them. But I think because now the problem you've got in the Premier League is because everyone is so good. There's just not really a quality differential. That's true. Even the very best players, you just can't see what difference they've got. So I've also been a selling point of the Premier League for so long. Is that anyone can in theory be anyone? And now that it's actually kind of true. We don't like it. We don't like it. No, I think I agree with everything you're saying. The only counter I would have to what you've said there is that I can totally see how teams continue to evolve, iterate against new things that come out. And that's the perfect example. Like have a bunch of players that rotate positions like PSG do except all of those players that are more technical and smaller and have a lower center of gravity, you get f*** on corners and lose. And if a team like Arsenal isn't really interested in winning an open play and he's only interested in forcing corners and has experts, then you can't iterate against that in open play. It's kind of where I was trying to get to, but seeing they're also good because it's the thing that you have to have big lads then to be big lads. You need big lads. You can't have to win the Yammer in every single position on a football pitch. It's kind of true. And that is part of the problem. And then I think if I was a small nippy player, I'd want to go and play anywhere else. Like the money is in England, right? So that's where the money would be. Sure. Also, the weather is awful. It's not a great place really to live far from London. And so why would you go there for the anywhere else, you know? He's not wrong. Yeah. I mean, it's why would you live there? It's because it's the Premier League. It's a shame York. I'm not in England another Premier League. Do you think people want to live here as much? Not football. Not football. Not football. Well, like, there was a long period of time when they all went around in Barcelona instead, didn't they? That's true. Only a few of them do that. Anyway, Robert Woods is good, isn't he? Good, well done. Liverpool missed Florian Vits. That was a big take away from that game, I thought. Well, indeed, I think they did. Right. Well done to Wolves. See you in the championship. Oh, we were going to stay up. We were going to quickly talk about the fact that actually, whilst we think they probably are relegated, although JJ does. Have you seen their fixed list? Well, this is exactly what I'm coming to. Well, maybe we think they're down already. They do still play a large role in the relegation battle, don't they? Because their fixed list JJ includes teams such as West Ham. Yep. Who were in it? Yeah, Sunderland. Well, they're not really in it. Leeds. They're not really in it. I've been telling you. I've been telling you. No, don't say that, Ruben. We'll get in trouble. I think they've got Fulham, who they'll lose to. But that's the only thing I think that they won't be... You think Wolves are going to be all these other teams? They've got a bit of momentum, and it makes sense. You think it's happening? No, no, no. Oh, my other predictions are starting to come true now. I've got not only a way last day. Burnley, yeah. Oh, that's going to be a big old game. The 19th one, isn't it? I mean, that's the thing. Realistically, they'll both be relegated at that point. Do you think, by the way, if Wolves... If Wolves, did you hear the show the other day when Colin Miller was on? He gave some of his warm thoughts. One of which was that Scott Parker's done a good job at Burnley. Do you think if Burnley dropped a 20th that will have to come in? Yeah. And now I think that's a good thought. Still fair. He got them promoted on a budget. He got them promoted having sold tons of players. Colin's argument was that their squad is far worse than any other, and that they've done what they should be expected to do. Yeah, he's a kind of promotion specialist. I think he's done pretty well. Sure. OK. But it used to be 40 points is what you need to stay up. It used to be what the number is. Sure. It could be 35. Normally, it's normally lower these days, isn't it? It has been for the last couple, but that last season it was only because the promoter teams did so poorly. This season you would expect it to be higher. Anyway, there we go. It'd be interesting to see Wolves in the championship next season, although we do anticipate that some of their players will probably leave, you know. But hey, good luck, and well done. The Go Measures. The Go Measures. The Go Measures. Or four of them, yeah. Steve, is there any remaining on Liverpool that you'd like us to talk about? I was just going to say, Tottenham, the other team that Wolves play of some consequence in the relegation basketball court. It is. How about that, that's a big one as well, isn't it? It is, it is. God Spurs got some big games coming up. What was the score when they played it in Asperger's to see? So it was an interesting game. It was a one-all draw in which Spurs were pretty bad, and Wolves were good. And then Palinia scored like a 93rd, 94th minute equalizer to rescue a point for Spurs. But it's one of those games you come away from it thinking, well firstly, like Spurs aren't good. Like Thomas Frank Spurs are not really going anywhere. This was really early on. I don't know if they got it somewhere. But also I came away thinking, Wolves actually looked fine. Yeah. They played, obviously, Pereira was still the manager at that point. I think they switched her about three and a half times, something like that. And they've got, you know, they've got quite a few good individual players. They've never been as bad as they looked, I think they were. They just can't score. This was so early on in the season, this game, that you don't want to like jump to the absolute conclusion. Totally. Exactly. But it has become quite prophetic, I guess, and how it's going. Yeah, it's massive. I've said this so many times on this show now that it's boring, but I watched Wolves opening game of the season with Man City, against Man City, at which they lost something like 4-0, I don't know. But they were the much better team for big chunks of that game. I remember that, yeah. And I remember thinking like, oh, if only they could score, they'll be completely fine. And then they didn't want to get in full of 20 games or something, because they can't score. Then they sold their big striker, and they can hold the ball up and go, tiny Adam and Armstrong in here. And suddenly they're scoring. Incredible. Did you watch someone live a pool? Because there's one thing I think that they should definitely be doing, and that is starting in the young lad in Gamora. He is unbelievably good. I don't really know much about him, tell me about that. Oh my god, he's so good. The way he moves to the ball, he's the kind of player I want to see in these massive, lad games. He just drifts in between them, pings it about, he's close controls amazing. Remember when Liverpool won at St James's Park early on in season, really late 3-2, he came on to score the winner there. Is he in for a bit at the moment? Is that way? No, he comes on the lake, he's very young, right? He's like 17 to 20. OK. He does far more, and every game I see him in the mid-last 10 minutes, then, honestly, Morsala has done all season. Or coded Gappo, right, who's coming for a lot of stick playing on the left wing, and somehow managed to miss. Did you see this chance that he did? Well, it was a bit like off the chest of his, of Curtis Jones, and managed to flick it backwards. And Kirk Hes was too close to the goal on it, went behind him. It reminded me of that trooper-moting chance for PSG when he stopped a definite goal. Yeah, it was like unfathomable how bad it going. Sorry to interrupt. Yeah, I agree, I agree, and Camaro should play more. Yeah, because he's young, right? If you want to look after him, you don't want to overplay these young players and just let him develop a little bit, he'll grow a bit more as well. But he is a game-changing player. He's one of the very special ones where you watch him, and straight away, I'm like, yeah, he's magic. Got it. I like it. I like Hes. I think he's all right. Let me ask you a question. Anna's slot. I mean, we talked about him previously in this vein. They just lost to wolves. I know wolves are on the up. That's all good. But it's been a bad season. It doesn't look like Liverpool, the less and less likely to finish in the top four. Surely he's going in the summer, isn't he? Well, he doesn't like the Premier League. He's letting him go. Does a man take him to the woods? Does a man take things he's surviving in that job? Say, you know, I know Jackie made the point earlier that it's nice you want to hear more of that from managers. But do you think there's a certain freedom to Anna's slot, because he may be assumed to stop keeping the job? I think there's been one or two things that he said where I've thought, wow, that's a really candid thing to say. So there was the bit where I forgot what it was. I think the context was he was saying something like, well, two years ago, we were getting knocked out of the Europa League by Atalanta, I think it was. And like, you know, obvious implication of that comment is, we used to be rubbish and then I made this good, which is kind of a strange thing to say given how good Liverpool work consistently under your club. Yeah. But when you heard him, when I heard him say that, I thought, hmm, that actually does sound like a manager who is like trying to save face through the media, basically, who's trying to kind of remind everyone, oh, I've actually not done a bad job here. I don't know, I reckon he's setting the narrative. He's done that quite a few times this season, like back to back weeks, where fans have gone, oh, don't say that. Yeah. And fair enough, right? Because are we really saying that if he does lose his job in the summer and they're replacing him with another coach, are we looking at this Liverpool here and saying, well, that was definitely on a slots fault? Or are we saying, well, they just, they spent loads of money on massive players and pushed them all together, expected the coach to really work and it didn't immediately. He pointed out that he spent all that money, but it was just a replace player, as I wasn't really improving the team. Right. Also, they've had to like, we calibrate the whole team, right? Because the whole team last season was, here's a platform to make Salah to like, make the most of Salah with Trent. Right. Exactly. Yeah. And Trent was an integral part of that platform. It was, it was all like the thing that's always reminded me of Liverpool last season was Galoni's Argentina, right? It's a platform for your one megastar player and everything is calibrated around, getting him the ball in dangerous positions where he can hurt the opposition. Yeah. And now this, but the problem is like, you know, with everything that happened in the summer, all of a sudden you don't have, it's like that platform doesn't exist anymore and you've spent hundreds of millions of pounds on guys who don't want to be a platform for Salah. Like, ESAC, Eckertike, Vierts, they want to be the main guy, right? Because if you get bought for a huge amount of money, you want to be, you don't want to show up to help somebody else, you want to be the main man. And so that is such a profound transformation in what the team, how the team is meant to function. And he's trying to oversee it. And clearly, they've had this issue of, you know, like Salah's still being there, it's Tafrite and maybe it would have been better if they'd let him go, perhaps maybe that's just hindsight. Politically at the time. Exactly, at the time they couldn't have, they couldn't have not given him that contract, but the Salah stuff has been, you know, it's been difficult for him to find things the right role for Salah. There's definitely a good team there with Eckertike and Vierts. I'm still not really sure about Eckertike and Vierts and ESAC, but whatever. Weirdly, the cheapest of those three has been the best. Yeah, yeah. I love Eckertike. Eckertike is so good. He's great. He's amazing. He's such a natural. I love watching him. Yeah. Well anyway, they clocked the T-Rex at 32 miles. It's a 32. It's a classic bucket, it was 32. So as Steve notes, above the speed limit on most UK roads, not quite 37. If this reminds me also, I went to visit my mother recently and she lives in Wales. And the main thing we talked about the whole weekend was how annoyed she was that it was 20 miles an hour speed limit on the roads now. It's pretty slow when you're doing 20 miles an hour. I was going to say, don't you get a 10% margin of error, which in which... That's what people say. I don't know if that's true. It's only two miles an hour. Yeah, I know, but I assume it was 30. Right. But lots of roads in London have gone from 30 to 20's in the last few years. Which is why I'm so used to it, I think, because driving around in London, it's like... When I'm driving around London, I am very, very used to going at 15 all the time. That's fine. The challenging thing is if you've gone out of London, you've been on the motorway, you come back into London, and then suddenly you come off the main road, you're doing 20 through the suburbs, and you think, wow, this is so slow. It feels really slow, doesn't it? Yeah, anyway, there you go. Also, maybe shouldn't take Rubens' interpretation of speed limits. Yeah. Turned us in extra 30 miles an hour, if you do that. Even though that's an evil thing. I doubt it is a legal thing. Yes. It's probably a sort of a nice, nice wing, wing thing, you know, anyway. But speed limits are there for a reason, listeners. You should obey them. I've also never driven a car, so another reason I could tell. I was going to say... To me neither. Who needs to drive a car? Sooner or worse, we'll do it for us. Exactly. Yeah, until then, other humans will. It's fine, it's fine. Ah, I got a taxi to work this morning. Well, there we go, good luck to Wolves and Liverpool and all the different teams there. We'll be back in just a moment after this advertisement break with a little bit of Rondo. OK, we're back. I think it's time to play the Rondo now. Do it properly. You want me to roll? It's time to play the Rondo. It's time to find out who will be named Rondo Del Rey. Or Rae Del Rondo, who knows? We can't remember which way round it is. Rondo Del Rey. Rondo Del Rey, I like him. Yes, we've decided that Rae Del Rondo sounds too much like an only fours and horses character. Exactly. Rondo Del Rey could be Lana's brother. Oh, that's true. I forgot about Lana Del Rey. That's right. How about that? Now, who wants to be named Rondo Del Rey? Hands up, if it's you. I mean, you win. Yeah, there you go. Just double-checking, right? Here's how the Rondo works. I give you a category that has multiple answers. We go round in a circle. You each name, correct answers to continue. If you take too long, and how long is judged by me, or if you give an incorrect answer, you are out of the game. The last person standing is named Rondo Del Rey. Del Rey, Rondo. Rondo Del Rey. And currently, because we didn't have a winner on Monday's show, it's still Kaya. Still Kaya? We could go or so. So there's a lot to play for here today to take away the crown. Now, today's category is Premier League Managers. Don't look at my computer, Ruben. I'm looking intentionally away from it. Don't look at it. Premier League Managers, who've managed over 300 games in the Premier League. There are 19 correct answers to this question. JJ, we will start with you. So Alex Ferguson. Alex Ferguson, of course, is in there. Just from Wenger. Yeah, I'll say Wenger's number one, actually. Ruben, Jose Maria. Jose Maria's number 10. JJ. David Moise. David Moise is number three. Jack. Pep Guardiola. Pep Guardiola, number nine. Ruben. Ew. What'd he be there? Um, Tony Puelis. Tony Puelis is there, number 17. 323 games, not far off. JJ. Sam Aladice. Sam Aladice is there, number five. Obviously, he's got 542 games played, Jack. Mark Hughes. Mark Hughes is there, number seven. Can I go Ari Rednet? Ari Rednet, you can have number four, actually. Yeah. Well, so for 300, he said over 300 appearances. Jürgen Klopp. Jürgen Klopp is there. 334 appearances in the number 15, Jack. I'm not sure about him. Mark Daniel. Mark Daniel is there, number 13, Ruben. Well, this is fun. This is a fun one. No, it's not. Not anymore. Uh, Neil Warnock. Neil Warnock is not there. Ruben's career. He's out of the game. Career wise, I think he's over 1,000, but they're all in the championship. I think then most of them would be. Yeah. OK, JJ, we are over to you. Now remember, there's a time limit here, and you don't know exactly what it is. So can you pick up, Ronda Del Rey? How much do you want that glory, sir? Oh, it's so much. I think I'm going to go for, um, oh, just go with it. Just going to meet me out. Kevin Keegan. Kevin Keegan is not there. Ah! OK, Jack, in order to be named, Ronda Del Rey, we need one more correct answer from you. OK, have you got it? Mick McCarthy. Mick McCarthy is not there. He's not there. Can we all come back in now? No, Kaya retains the Ronda Del Rey. I can't. Can he continue to hold onto this forever? Wow. Now, his name is you could have had. Of course, I'll start from the bottom up. In at number 19, the fewest appearances over 300, Brendan Rodgers, you could have had 312. Was he going to Canada at least to see one? No. You could have, of course, had Alan Pardew, 320. You could have had Alan Kerbisch Lee, the other Alan in there. Sean Dice, of course, 351 appearances. Kerbisch Lee, Kerbisch Lee was the one who was in my head, and he was in my head, and he went out of my head. And I had to fill that space in my head and we bit my car in the past. And you filled it with Mick. Raphael Benitez, you could have had Rapha. Eddie Howe, of course. You could have had. I guess he's just been there long enough at those two teams. About 10 years on the dot, I think. Roy Hodgson, I'm surprised you didn't say it. Oh, I thought he said he's been gone avoid, avoid long time now, so he's forgotten about him. He's, I think he's a very high on the list of football managers, managers, managed games overall. He's got over a thousand. He's just really old, isn't he? And of course, in at number six, how could we forget? Steve Bruce. Steve Bruce, with 476 Premier League games managed. So that would be Newcastle Birmingham. Who else do you manage? Palace in the Premier League. For a bit, but maybe in the championship. Palace, Palace briefly, yeah. Hole, yeah. Wow. Yeah, I mean, his entire career, it also includes Wigan, Sunderland, Hull, Villa, Sheffield, Wednesday, Newcastle, West from a champion. One of the all-time greats. It really hurts. It does hurt, doesn't it? Yeah, I can't believe I didn't get Pargy War Hodgson. Rondo Del Rey, how about that? Well, there we go. We'll have to wait until next episode to see if anyone can claim Kaya's Rondo Del Rey. How about that? Long may he reign. Long may he reign indeed. Now, let's go and talk about people who almost certainly aren't enjoying themselves. Of course, I'm referring to Tarnham Hotspur. This is the only upcoming game that we can discuss because of the time that we're recording our podcast. They play Thursday night. So hopefully tonight, when people are listening to this show, sorry, I've kind of ad-libbed what Steve wrote, and then I've read in at the wrong point, and then I will write, Steve says, where do the eagles swoop down? Right, Steve, and claw at the cockerel of North London. I certainly hope not. Sending them spiraling further towards the relegation zone. Steve, little feedback there. I feel as though you started so strong that maybe there's a way of tying in the animal theme again towards, yeah, when it was spiraling further towards the abyss. The abyss, or to the abyss. A death spiral. Yes, a death spiral, for because of the birds. Yes, yes indeed. Death, eagles, do they do death spirals, eagles? Do they? There are certain eagles I think that like spin down from a great height and get up to a ridiculous speed so much in the brain. From a great height. But that's attacking, not, not, you know. We used to have a real live eagle at the cell host part flying from crossbar to crossbar. What was it called? Kaila. Kaila. Died in 2020. Died. Gelt. Gelt. That's good. Too much red wine. There was a hot coron eagle that Aberdeen to get rid of the seagulls. What happened to that one? It became the king. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you know, did I say this already? Maybe I don't have that many anecdotes and this isn't even one of mine. But I was watching the David Attenborough London episode, you know, the special. But I didn't realize that there were a wild paragron falcons living in London. You know that? Did not. The fastest bird of prey alive. I thought I knew that there were some around because I knew that some companies used them, as you just said, to keep pigeons away or whatever. No, they're wild. They live in the building. They live in the skyscrapers. They make. But you'd never see them. You're so fast. No, you never see them because they're so fast. That's so incredible. Incredible. Well, as does he look at the fights between rats on the underground? Do you know what? I didn't want to watch it because I thought exactly I was cynical like you. And my wife said, I want to watch it. I want to watch. Her indoors. You know, old bowling chain. Don't devine in his natural habitat. Blind. A tuna melt from prey. That's not a tuna melt. No, I know. It's a tuna crunch bag out. It's not a crunch. Why does everyone think it's a crunch trap? It's not a crunch. What is it? It's a tuna. It's a pole. A whole line caught tuna and cucumber bag. Okay. That's all it is. There's no crunch involved. I mean, there's a little bit of crunching. Irrelevant to the quality of the impression. The point is that it was actually it's terrific. It's such a good episode. It's so worth watching. They talk about hedgehog highways. Wonderful. The following beautiful foxes around. There's an incredible dramatized scene at Hyde Park Serpentine, the lake where there is a new pigeon in town that doesn't know how things go around there. Oh. And a seagull tries to fucking drown it. It's incredible. It's like a gang warfare, like turf war. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the pecumans are just sitting around reading books, eating ice creams. Meanwhile, there's a pigeon being drowned today in the Serpentine's horrible. Horrible. Horrible. Really? It's London. Do they go into the sewer and then discover, like, Adolescent? The Rat King. No. No, there's the inter. Adolescent. There's some sort of vermin that has developed ninja skills in the sewer. Yeah. And it looks after some Adolescent amphibians. For some reason, even though I've known you for a long time, I genuinely took that seriously until the very last moment. Oh, I'm dead serious. Yeah, yeah. Of course. Anyway, speaking of the sewers, it's pretty stinky down Tottenham Hotspur, isn't it, Jack? We talked about the Eagles swooping there. And you've written this week about how Spurs have simply forgotten how to win. It has been so long. Do you think it's possible that they won't win, win, win? I've got Eagles on the brain. Win another game in the Premier League. I mean, they've got some big, giant, massive fixtures coming up. I think it's unlikely that they won another game. I think that, so is it, I was at Fulham on Sunday where they lost 2-1. And Fulham was so much better than them. Particularly for like the first hour. That was the easiest game to predict of all time. Yeah, and I just worried watching Tottenham that they, like, their players seem to have lost so much confidence that I think, I think if they can just get, if they can win a game, they will be like, oh, yeah, winning football matches. This is like what we're paid to do. This is what we've done our whole professional lives. It's not that hard. And they don't need that much, right? No, they don't. 29 points. I think even if they get one win and a couple of draws, they'll probably be OK. So I think there's definitely a visible path to being OK, to safety. Yeah. But I just, I look at them and I think they'd have a big mental block about winning because they haven't won a league game since the 28th of December last year. Against Palace. Against Palace. Which was a terrible game. Like an unwatchy game where Archie Gray runs in the corner. I brought my family to that. They did not have fun. And they've got like four points in 10 games since then. They've got something like 12 points in the last 19 Premier League games. Yeah. And I just think competence has eroded the point they've sort of forgotten how to win a football match. And didn't, I mean, it seems as though they brought in Igor Tudor to try and remember. I was listening to various other journalists, a world journalist and media discussing this morning, the possibility that maybe he won't even beat there. You know, if they lose another couple of games, have you heard anything about this? Yes. I mean, like, this is a rumor. I think that, I don't know. I'd be surprised. I'd be surprised they made a change just because he is. The change. Yeah, like he's, he's the guy they brought in. And I think they've, you know, you've got to sort of go all in when you bring in a new manager. But at the moment, like I said, if they can just, if you can just win a game, you can just win a game. And you know, in theory, maybe Palace, I shouldn't be so hard. It's not like Palace having a great time at the moment either. Then I think everybody will be like, oh, yeah, this is what it's like. This is what it's like when you win a football match. But until that point, it's going to get harder and harder and harder to win that first game. If they lose to Palace, I mean, they've also got forest coming up in a couple of weeks, which is, that's a, that's a massive game. We just mentioned that we'll still have to play them as well. If they lose to Palace Thursday night, what do you think the reaction is going to be internally? Like surely it's panic at that point, isn't it? I think the vibes will be bad. Yeah. Then weirdly, they've got a Champions League game coming up. They've got Atlético in Madrid, the 16th. They were 100% win, of course. Of course. And they've got Liverpool West in between us. Yeah, they've got Atlético, Liverpool, Atlético. And it's weird, you've got these three games against huge teams. But ultimately, what really comes down to that forest home game? Just because that's the last game for the international break. Right. And so if you have a bad result in that game, you spend two weeks cheering on a bit like, oh, no, I can't believe we had another bad result. Yeah. If you win that game, everybody's happy. That's true, right? I mean, if you win that game, then it's sort of completely fine. Yeah, yeah. And totally. So I think there's a really plausible situation in which they win this game. And then maybe they beat forest. And then by the international break, everyone's enjoying their Easter eggs thinking, oh, what's the fuss about? What's the fuss about? It's fine. There aren't really only signs that they will win games, though, right? Because the performance is like statistically and on the eye are all horrendous. The only thing that makes you think, surely they will, is like just the kind of quality of the individuals that you think eventually must accumulate into a decent performance. Yeah. But like, there's some stats in the script that I can't read because they're hyperlinked. That demonstrate that they are like 20th or at least 19th for a lot of like ball progression stats, I think, is the main problem, which we flagged this a long time ago. Everyone was aware of it. The Gallagher signing did not fix it. And everyone knew that that wouldn't that wouldn't work. Got it. These are the ones that you shared in the WhatsApp JJ, aren't they? They're posted on on X by sports financial planner or sports sports finance. You posted these ones where Tonham Hotspur, they're attacking in 2026. They rank 20th for times dispossessed. So I guess they've been dispossessed the most. That means they 20th for losses of possession. 19th for unsuccessful touches. 18th for sequences ending in the final third. 19th for big chances created from a set place. I mean, the list kind of goes on and on and on. This is the result of having a team of runners and no passes. Yeah. Yeah, I think like the worst thing, like one of the many disasters before Tonham this season, which is not their fault. This is just random, bad luck. Is the fact that they're two very good creative and fielders. Colisex and Madison haven't played a minute in a season like they both got. I mean, Colisex, he got a bad knee injury at the end of last season. Madison got one in preseason. They both had surgery, neither have played. And it means that all the midfields they have are like various types of either sixes or runners. But they've got no one who can pass the ball forwards really. And it's just completely undermined their ability to create proper chances. Or even to get the ball to Javi Siemens. He's a good player, but they can't really like get him into good position. Even like the Sumer and Grey are more like dribblers. Exactly. And regardless, it wouldn't matter because you can't create things anymore in the Premier League because all you need is massive lads. Everyone goes man to man. You can't create any differences of separation from anyone. And so it doesn't matter how many passes you've got. You need better players up top. They don't really have those because they're all injured. They've got two big lads up top of them. Yeah, they've got three. Three. Three, four. Quite good strikers, I think. Like Rashalus and when he's fair is really good. It's pretty good. Salanki started brilliantly at first half of last season. It's really kind of not really been at the same level since they were very centuries. And then Colombo Arnie. I mean, he's been a bad signing. Like he's got one league of spurs. But when you watch him play, you're like, this guy's actually a good player. Yeah. He's not a bad player at all. Like he's got great movement. He's pretty good technically. He's a good athlete. He's got good eye for goal. Like he should. He should be a good player. But you've got those players scoring some goals. Yeah. I think they would have bouncing him scoring more than one goal. Yeah. For sure. I mean, JJ, you've sort of said recently that you, I mean, obviously there's a very real possibility that they do get relegated. You, I think you think they will though. Or at least you've said that. I always like the. The risk you take. The funniest thing to happen. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know what law that is, but I think it's called the fun fun law. The fun fun law. Yeah. Obviously for Sparrows fans, that would be horrendous. Sure. Well, no, no, no, no. I don't know. Uncle Damien, there's a knowledge fan always says that it's more fun to be in the championship because the away trips are more fun and they win games. Yeah. Although that hasn't really worked this season. I don't know. I mean, it's different now, isn't it? Sparrows aren't just people supported by people who live in North London. It's supported by people around the world. It's a different. It's like a sport of company now. Sure. So that goes down. That's bad. And there's lots of things that will happen. People lose jobs. Also, as reported, all of the, that there are a wage cut clauses. I think a lot of the players would see their salaries reduced. I mean, it would be, I don't know, I would still bet against it happening, but I think that if it did happen, hypothetically, it would be, I think it'd be one of the biggest stories in the Premier League in the 25th century. I mean, ever. Spurs have got the ninth biggest, I mean, UEFA brought out the club finance report last week. Yeah. Spurs have got the ninth biggest revenues in European football. Yeah. Like, you know, put the, you know, they've built one of the best stadiums in Europe and they've opened it in 2019. Who, who's, who's to, who would be to blame? Well, there's more than enough lanes to go around as far as I was fine. Like, they've been, you know, the appointment of Thomas Frank was a bad decision. The squad has got worse and worse, certainly in relative to competitors. It's not an absolute terms. Yeah. In the last five or six years, they haven't spent enough money on salaries. Yeah. They didn't replace Kane or Son. I was talking to my friend Nathan, the other day, who's from the extra inch spurs. Oh, legends. Yeah. He was saying, actually, I think they did, they talked about it on their show a couple of weeks ago, but he's pretty convinced that like, you can track this all the way back to that summer where they didn't buy a pochettino anymore. And like, the squad management has been, his claim is like, it's been a year behind. That sounds kind of extreme when you look at it. I was really chasing to catch up. I think the failure to buy anyone in 2018 was really bad because it meant they were always playing catch-up, right? And in 2019, they bought and don't blame La Salle so obsessed on it. Three good players. But they were coming into a squad that had gone stale and they were never able to get the right kind of balance of age and experience and hunger and all the rest of it. So that was a big problem. But even the failure to buy anyone in 2018 was itself downstream from not selling the players. When that team said it's peak, I think what pochettino would have wanted to do is, right, we're at our peak. How do you improve? You sell players to bring in you guys who are hungry and who really want, and who've got the same energy that maybe we used to have three years ago. But like, so many of that team stuck around too long. Like Erickson, Alderweir, or Deli Ali, Danny Rose, all those guys who hypothetically, they could have sold it. When they're at peak market value, they could have sold it all to, you know, Man United Chelsea, whoever, Man City made hundreds of millions of pounds in fees. But they hung on to them all. And then in three years time, they were like, they're all kind of like slightly jaded free agents. And you lose tons of money. The squad all goes a bit sour. And they've sort of been chasing it ever since, really. And that's, you know, that's a long time ago now. Kane is also an absolute anomaly that people seem to still forget. If they hadn't had him, they could well have been finished mid-table entire time. And Sun as well, because he was in the shadow again. Oh, one of the best there's ever. Yeah, that's one of the bizarre things about Tottenham in the last few years, is that they had two of the best Premier League strikers of the modern era. And they got came to the Academy, and they got Sun for 20 million from BioLovercoose. And I suspect that like maybe subconsciously, that maybe convinced some people that, oh, maybe we can like, maybe we don't have to go out and spend 100 million. Maybe we'll just have world cost players all the time. And so after that point, they never again. They never really like went out and got a world class player. And then obviously those two guys left. And then all of a sudden it's like, how do you get a world class player? What do we do? What I'm here to press is that, from what you're saying, is that Daniel Levy is to blame? Well, I mean, I think Daniel Levy made a lot of bad decisions in his last sort of five or six years of spurs. Not least, never really settling on a good football strategy. But they had a good strategy when Pochina was there, because it was kind of Pochina strategy. And then, but then as soon as they got rid of him for Merinio, it was, are we trying to be a big club? We're going to get the big club guys in. We're going to get Merinio. That was, we'll get confused. We'll get Conte. But then we won't actually give him like Conte level players. And then we'll go back to, we'll go back to Tottenham football with Ang, and then we'll go back in the other direction with Thomas Frank. Don't forget about Nuno. Yeah. So there were a lot of bad decisions along the way, although equally, I don't think it's just Daniel Levy, because you know, he was obviously like an employee of the Lewis family. Sure. And it's, so it's not like he was, it's not like he had hundreds and hundreds of millions of pounds of spend that he was simply choosing to not spend. Yeah. It's slightly more complicated situation than that. And there's been, you know, there's been lots of other like mistakes along the way, particularly. So I say it's not just a case of Daniel Levy. No. Okay, fair enough. Well, let's, let's be excited to see what happens in that game. This is a strange sentence, isn't it? Let's be excited to see what happens in that Crystal Palace game. Can you tell me what to do? I'm sure some people listening will have already seen that game as well. So I'll be curious to listen back to this section after we know the result. I'm also not excited to watch it. No, it's going to be horrendous. That's good because Steve cut the bit where I was going to like you. Thanks Steve. Steve's desperate for us to talk about everything. But Juan Redd was a sham. We may reach Everton. We may reach Everton. Possibly not. We'll find out. But first off, of course, we have to talk about Rexam. Now, Ruben, Rexam play, don't they? Premier League side Chelsea in the FA Cup of the weekend. And we could see many more Premier League sides visiting North Wales if the dragons write Steve seal promotion from the championship. They currently sit sick in England's second tier occupying the... What? We're now to call it England. I guess it's England, isn't it? It's English football. It's the history of the league and the Rexam is... Yeah, because when they were founded, one of the oldest clubs. Well, they sit in England's second tier occupying the final playoff place and are four points ahead of Southampton in seventh. I was kind of surprised to see that. I noticed a couple of weeks ago that they were in the playoffs and I haven't paid much attention to them this season. The last time that we talked about them or I listened to anyone talking about them was mostly about conversation that the championship was going to be brutally difficult for them. And maybe it has been. But they seem to be handling it okay right now. There's at least a very real possibility that they could get into the playoffs. Yeah, like you said, four point buffer. They've got a bit of an injury crisis. Crisis might be a strong word other moment in central midfield. Ben Sheif was brought in to Ben Sheif. Yeah. Where did they find him at the Wheat Sheif? Hey, remember the Wheat Sheif? Hey, remember that? What's that? It was the sort of motorway service station. Wheat Sheif, the Wheat Sheif. Actually, no, it's the name of many pubs. Oh, I think you're a little chef. No, I think so. Oh, Wheat Sheif. I should fuse the Scottish little chef. I would confuse little chef and Wheat Sheif. Wheat Sheif is pub is sort of pub name. Yeah, pub name. Country pub name. I love pubs. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we all do. Their best central midfielder is out for the season with a medial ligament injury. A medial ligament you're saying. Have you ever eaten at the medial ligament? No, I've got to. Matty James, do you remember him? I do remember him. Pester City. Yeah. He's also there and injured. Oh. So they're getting this in this Chelsea cup tie. They're likely to play Zach Feiner. Right. Really signed from Bristol City, who is a central defender in midfield. He's played there a couple of times in recent weeks. Yeah. He can do it. It'll be okay if he's John Stone's. Well, quite. And Phil Parkinson, their manager, has a good record of evolving squads and kind of rebuilding them as they go. Because obviously, with back-to-back promotions, they've had to do that quite often. You'll remember Paul Mullin. I do remember Paul Mullin, who they signed when they're in a national league from league two. Yes. I think it was at Cambridge. Right. And he got them promoted. He was essentially a league one-level player playing in a national league. He got them up. And now, obviously, they're in a championship. He's now being loaned out back to league one. Right. So you have to keep on moving. Oh, bless him. When you succeed that quickly and climb up to the pyramid, you have to keep changing your squad and moving your heroes on, because they're no longer off the level. Right. So they've had a lot of turnover and dealt with it quite well. They have a left-back called Libby Cacacier, who I want signed for Palace on FIFA. Really? Yeah. But he's also injured. OK. But yeah. It's quite exciting. They've got key for more up top. Do you remember him? Yeah, they do. Paul played for Bournemouth a bit way into the national. Yeah. And he started season well. And then only scored one goal in his last 11 games. So he's been kind of in and out of the team with another player called Sam Smith, not that one. Not the end of all those pubs. No. No other singer. Yeah. So I was... Some rex and fans that I was listening to this week were debating about who should start against Chelsea, given the nature of the game and the formation they played as 343, which were inevitably turned into a back-five against the Premier League team. You'd expect in that kind of game you want the big man, which is key for more to bring the ball down. OK. Yeah. So it's quite interesting, isn't it? The last time they played each other? Am I should, I guess? Yeah. 1743. 1982. Oh, wow. In League Division II. Wow. And Chelsea in the second tier. Oh, good Lord. That's exciting. Yeah. How about that? But one last thing. They're manager. So obviously this is a big deal for them. The Chelsea FA Cup game. But promotion is more important. Their manager has a very good record of this. When he was Bradford City manager, his team dumped Jose Mourinho's soon to be crowned champions out of the FA Cup. Little, little dumping. And two years before that, he took Bradford to lead Cup Final where they lost to Swansea. They got absolutely battered by Swansea. But like, they got promoted that season as well. So he's got quite a good record of balancing these two things. And yeah, it's looking positive. But like, if they don't go up this season, then it feels kind of inevitable that it will happen. Maybe next season. Well, is it written in the stars, JPB? Promotion. I suspect probably in, I think it's inevitable they will get promotions for a minute. It feels as though that it's just sort of being, that it's someone's reached down. And it's just going. Yep. Yep. And they make money through, obviously, how famous they are. They buy good players, although it's worth remembering. Like, some of the big name players they bought in, they've also let go this year, right? Like McLean's gone, Connacone's gone. So it's not just like guys you remember from the Premier League. Sure. Who are in the team at the moment. And they seem to be, you know, they seem to be making pretty good football decisions. Like, they seem to know, I don't think it's like a kind of interference celebrity in a scenario at all. I think they seem to, they seem to, they seem like they give field parkers and quite a lot of autonomy. Um, so yeah, I would suspect that the, like the long term momentum is with them. And if they don't crack it this year, they probably will get there as soon as we're on the lights. What, I mean, what, what do you guys think the, the Premier League looks like with rexon? I feel like because it's, it's such a media beast, right? That like, it feels as though, that will kind of change the, the lens through which we look at the league, in a sense. Like, or at least the into the, like a big chunk of the international audience will suddenly be focused on the relegation battle in a way that I think it will, I think it will be big from, uh, from the perspective of like, having us, having a new, a team who's new to the Premier League, who is also a big draw in themselves. Like, generally, if we get a new team into the Premier League, most of the coverage they get is, I haven't done well. I haven't like, Blackpool, um, Lutentown. Yeah. I think probably the, who else, uh, Huddersfield. Sure. And like three, I guess from the last sort of 15 years. And it's like, they've done well, like, really an effort by those guys. Yeah. They've tried to score goals. But if regs are here, like, they'll be, they might, I don't think that will be the narrative because obviously they will have come, I mean, if they get out of this year, it's going for promotion of the spin or something which is bonkers. It's crazy. Um, but I think there will be more, I think the fact that there will be lots of famous people at the game and like, there will be lots of tourists trying to go to the games or that kind of thing. Like, it will just be a different, a different vibe. We less of the condescension. Yeah. There will be less of them who haven't done well. Yeah. But I also think within two months, people, like, that sort of stuff, people will get very bored of, or whether they get familiar with. And so, and at that point, they'd probably be taking more in their own terms. Do you think there's any, like, downside to this, you know, just to look at it the other side. Don't make me do this. Well, you get the whole table, right? Like, to the whole table. I do. I'm looking at you, but I'm talking to the whole table, J.J. The downside I'm talking about is and playing Devils Advocate here, does it make a mockery of the football league system that we have that Rexham can get promoted in theory every single season in a row up to the Premier League? That's a very good question. A multi-lead. Yeah. Because... I can't wait for your multi-lead ups. Well, what they've basically done is manage something very well with not huge amounts of investment. There isn't a lot. Like, there are salaries and stuff and the lower leagues were very high, compared to everyone else. Yeah. And they spent loads of money on players all the way up. Yeah. But if you've seen it before with lots of clubs, like Bournemouth did something similar, right? They sort of ruled the way up. It's not unheard of. If you do things sensibly, that you start low enough in the leagues and you are sensible, you can climb up. It's not that far away. I mean, the boy KSI just bought a big stake in dag and red bridge, right? They're in the sixth tier, I think. So it's not unfeasible that he could get them up to a higher league and investment. He's a more famous J.J. than you. That's correct. Return investment is huge. You know, you've got, like, there's hashtag in the league below that. And then, like, all those teams could go quite easily and go up. Sure. This is the thing, right? It's romantic because the idea we have of football, especially, like, I guess, was in England, is that it's this romantic thing, where it's a part of the community. And everyone goes out and you know, all, here's, here's all George. He's been coming here for 72 years. He's slower than a T-Rex, like most humans are. Yeah. I don't know why that came into my mind. Anyway, so then, I can guide you now. All George is always being scared T-Rex would come and chase him out with the league. He's been working that club forever. And then you have, like, wiggins and all these teams, like, I don't know where they even are on a map. Sure. And you can get these teams that climb up and whatever. But they're just parts of the community. But as soon as someone comes along and runs it, like, an American company, with all lawyers and all financial CEOs and all the CE people, you know. Then suddenly it becomes, it's just a business. It's like supporting ASDA versus TESCO. Which is essentially what a lot of football has become. It's like people support teams, like Arsenal, Manning City, and around the world, and they love them. They'll get tattoos for them. But it's like supporting a supermarket, basically. It's just a big company. And so there's, like, while very start, the Rexham story was great. I fully bought A and I took, I did my football manager, got them to the Premier League, there's an exactly what I did with them, as they go up to the same, same times. Nice little humble break. Well, I did, because I'm amazing in that game. But they've even got, like, I think Max Cleaver, if I remember having him in the game, back in the day, and he's still playing for them. He starts at center back. Right. So they've got all these bits, and they're still tied to the community, and then they've done his right. But I think for a lot of people, the sort of cutesy, romantic story is kind of dissipating people to the right word. It's on the turn. Well, it's natural, because then become, it has left the milk exposed, especially within England as well. Anything in the UK, anyone who is in any way successful, like, no, you should be held down. Sure. We must bow to the king. You know, people above us, they're who we should, but they can't possibly cover any success. There's a lot of, like... There's a lot of, like... There's a lot of them. Yeah. They love a kind of race-to-rich story. They love that, yeah, whatever. But... So I've got a friend who supports Grimsby, and he doesn't like it. I'm sorry. Me too. But I think... He doesn't like Grimsby, or he doesn't like the Rex. He loves Grimsby. He loves Grimsby. Because I know a lot of Grimsby's problems, but don't like Grimsby. But he doesn't like the Rex from story, because, you know, understandably, there's a lot of envy throughout the football league, or they've just spent their way to the top. But the thing that mitigates that for me is every time I read anything from Rob Mark, or Ryan Reynolds, they're all about doing it sustainably. They're like stadium infrastructure, looking after the town. And you could argue that, you know, it's... Because it's a bit of a Hollywood project, and whatever, like something has been lost. But they do care. And that is different to a lot of money, of, like, bank robbing teams. I agree, yeah. Whether they intended to or not. Yeah. And that's clear that they care. I love Rob Mark or Henny, and everything he's touched with, like it's always done in Philadelphia and everything. So naturally, I tend to do good things, because as he's a genius, right? But when they inevitably sell, and they will have to sell something, but surely, to really take it to the next level, or maybe they'll still be the face of it, but they'll have other investors. Hypothetically, I mean, like the value of a club will be incomparable to what it would have been when they were in the national league. Oh, yeah. So I don't know. I feel like I have mixed feelings. So when they were in non league, I was quite sympathetic on the basis that lots of non league owners are bad, and if you like encouraging people to go watch their local team is good, and trying to make a local team good, with money, which is also like clean money, which is a good thing broadly. And North Wales is a big catchment area. And also like Rex, it's worth remembering, like Rex, like the fact that Rexham was in not, like Rexham was just not like, Rexham, sorry, let me tell you that again, Rexham were not just like any other non league team. Like Rexham were a really big club who had fallen on bad times, and that's why they were playing at non league level. Like Rexham is a really big town. Like Rexham are, you know, what the third biggest club in Wales, like maybe, maybe to, I mean, like their local fan base is huge. And the history of the club is huge. And so they were not just like any other national league team. That's right. Chester, am I right? Yes. I agree. And so I think there's a case for like, there's like a moral case for them, progressing. Certainly, I guess the issue is that with every promotion they've had, I've started to sort of rethink it a little bit. And I guess, and while I don't criticize the guys involved at all, because I think they have done a really good job, and I think they've done it for, I don't even like mind the reasons they've done it for. Sure. Because I think that so many, so many people who own football clubs in the UK are just bad faith actors. Yeah. And at the same time, do I think it's healthy for British football to have this thing where, like the best way to go from being bad to good is to have two very rich famous Americans by you. That was kind of my point. Not really. Like, I don't think that's a cool system. I don't. We are where we are. But also we are. More. I don't know how many people who own Premier League clubs do I think. Oh, it's so cool that they own that club. Yeah, none of them. What a great thing for British football. That guy owns that club. It's a big parish. Yeah. I mean, parish is maybe like one of the people. He's one of the exceptions. He's a fan. He brought them out. Exactly. Exactly. But in so many other cases. And it's not even just Premier League either. It's like, how do I look at ownership and championship clubs? Sure. Yeah. They're just trying to chase it. They're trying to copy. Right. Yeah. And there'll be so many copycats now. Because anybody. I mean, they're already are. But there'll be, like, there will be so many rich and famous people who see what's happening in rex and then think. Yeah. They'll be really cool if I did that. Why can't that happen for me? And they'll try to do it. What if I was on camera? And they'll try and do it. And they'll get it wrong. Yeah. Because they won't have the same buy-in. Yeah. And that kind of buzz they'll try and generate will actually make things worse. And so, yeah, I've got nothing against the, like, Ron Reynolds and Ron McAtoll. Sure. But I also think it's, you know, like English football club ownership is in the main pretty bad. On the valuation thing, paragraph from a recent piece on the, on the athletic. The pair paid a token one pound to buy the ailing team who were then playing down in the fifth tier alongside a promise to invest a further two million five years and three successive promotions later. The same club are valued at three hundred and fifty million pounds. Good. They're on their right most recent, like, bit of influx of investment. Yeah. That was a London house prices, isn't it? Well, we saw how like, we've done rex and videos and stuff. They get a huge audience. Like, they're world famous. Yeah. It's, uh, what they've, what they've achieved is really impressive. Sure. And so, like, while I say, I wonder whether the romantic is going out. It hasn't. Especially people who support rex and like, I've watched a couple of games of people who support rex. And they, like, they love it. Can't believe it. Can't believe it. Because Gary is a big fan. Well, here you go. Cousin Gary. So it's obviously, like, that's a great part of it. But then the whole thing, I think my point more is at the whole of football. What are you really supporting? Like, what is it you're watching? Yeah. Just want to say, Cousin Gary's been there from the beginning, you know. I went to a wedding when I was, I don't know, f***, seven years old and rex and where Cousin Gary was. And I fell asleep standing up on the, on the dance floor, like a horse. It's hard to do. Yeah. The horses fell asleep. Are you leaning on, leaning on anything or anything? No, no. There was a photo of me just wobble that, you know, like, a mid wobble. Did I understand wearing a backpack at the time? Probably. That's what, that's how I stayed at standing up. Too many apple juices. Too many apple juices. It was the 90s. We were allowed to drink alcohol at seven years old. Anyway, well, we haven't got time for everything. Have we? No, let's do it properly. Yeah, you know. We'll do it properly by not doing it again on any other bogger. Every new course defeated a doomed, burn lead to nil. I'm not, we're not going to talk about it. I'm just expressing that that is what happened on Tuesday evening. A congratulations to everyone involved. And John McKenzie is going to have to buy me lunch. It looks like because we've got a little wager. I'm 10th or up. He's 11th or down. And oh, that sweet lunch is going to be delicious and expensive, John. It's going to be expensive. How about that? What will we have for pudding, do you think? What will I have for pudding? Just sour grapes, hopefully. And covered in John McKenzie's little tears. Nice. What a dickhead. Right. That's it. Ruben, thanks very much. Thank you. J.J., thank you. Goodbye. And Steve also was here. Yes, I was. We'll be back. Actually, we have a ring for analysis episode this week, which is about a as of yet undetermined subject. Look forward to that. It's audio only. You've got to subscribe to the RSSV to enjoy it. Thank you. Goodbye.