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Hello and welcome to the TFO Football Podcast. I'm Joe Devine, and today I'm delighted to be joined by John McKenzie. Hello. Also in the human flesh, it's Sebastian Staffel Blore. Hello Joe. We're joined by Liam Toomey. Hello. He's the Athletics Chelsea reporter and also Steve Hanky's here. Hello! That's it. So what did we discuss today? Well, let me tell you, we start with Arsenal's narrow victory right, Steve, against Chelsea secured of course by more set pieces, which we discuss. Chelsea's ninth red card helped ease Arsenal onto victory. So we talk about Chelsea's discipline. Why are they blotting their copybook so much this season right, Steve? We discuss. We also talk about corners. Is it just really boring now? Does it have to start? Well, there's mixed opinion in the room. The phrase meat shield is used. I enjoyed that greatly, and I am blinded by my animus towards Mechel Marino. Steve wrote that, but it's fair. I do have animus towards Mechel Marino. Peacocks are mentioned and how you must be wary of them. Look out for that. And then we play the rondo. Well, actually, we played two rondo's. One of them was an abject failure though, so you won't be hearing that one. Not for Seb. You did quite well in that. It was an abject failure with a great, good success. Yes. A great story at the centre of an abject failure. Underdog tail. There it is. That's right. After the break, Seb and John go completely rogue. That is true. There were mentions of video games living in the medieval times and basically whatever they wanted apparently, I lost control of the room. This makes myself and Steve very nervous. So what do we do? Steve, we moved on to Arsenal's nerves in the title race and how it's affecting their performances. We also touch on the Champions League brackets as they came out late last week and to ramp up the nerves even further, we talk about Tottenham's chances of relegation. Have they increased even further after the weekend and then we play points about? And that's the whole show. This episode, sort of like an Arsenal fans dream episode, isn't it? Apart from the bit in the middle where I sh** on mechalmarino, everything else, you would imagine Arsenal fan would love it. You know, not only do we talk about how good their team are, we then talk about the chances of spurs being relegated. Delicious. And their chances of winning the Champions League and their chances of winning the Champions League. Stick around to find out who Seb thinks it's going to be with the Champions League. F**k it, big surprise. Big surprise. Oh, I moved to Germany, and now I've got to say it. Oh. Can't get back into the country if I don't say it. Me and all the German media agree. There's one team in the world. Is that your very best me, all these years. It's not bad though. On with the show. Well where else to begin, of course, then with Arsenal 2, one Chelsea, a very interesting result, somewhat dull game, I would say, at times they've got quite a little bit exciting towards the end, didn't it? It was a set peace statement victory right, Steve, for Arsenal against Chelsea. Just to be clear, it was for Arsenal. Just wanted to just wanted you to go to that. It's a little 90 f**king briefing. For the Arsenal. For the Arsenal against Chelsea. At the Emirates Stadium on Sunday evening, as they restore their lead at the top of the table to five points, I think Manchester have the game in hand, don't they? It is technically true what Steve's written, but you know, missing some finer details. Arsenal enjoy scoring from corners so much, right, Steve, that they even scored one on behalf of their London rivals, very draw their, of course, referring to what I assume. I don't, it wouldn't be counted as a known goal. It is, yeah. Who was the player that we thought had scored up in Caputon? No, no, who was the player we thought had reached James? What's straight from the corner? Yeah, reached out to Liverpool. I'm thinking of a different goal from this weekend. I'm thinking of a different headed corner goal. Can't help you with that. Yeah, are you thinking of the first Arsenal goal? No, I don't think so. The fact that it an offside. Oh, maybe I am. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, and it was Timber that claimed it. It was Cileber's header. Yeah. Did you watch this game? I did. That's how I've misremembered fragmented details, John. It was Cileber, of course, who, who, who, you know, as maybe part of the discussion will go on to talk about how everything falls Arsenal's way. Even the own goals are registered for their players, whereas poor old Chelsea, they've got to accept a, I think, Caputon goal. There we go. Anyway, what a terrible bit of the podcast. That was a two-one victory for the Gunners. Season Cile precious points against the top six rival. It was a very big victory, wasn't it Steve? And it means that the only remaining league fixture for Arsenal against a side sitting in the top six comes against Manchester City. Dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, ellipsis Manchester City. On Saturday, the 18th of April, core blimey, that's almost as big as the spurs forest game, isn't it? In three weeks time. That's the, that's the real big fixture we're all looking for. For Chelsea, of course, defeat ensured that they fell further behind their rivals in the hunt for Champions League qualification. I mean, where should we start? You watch this game, John, because you covered it for your, did you notice video? Well, I was going to say it was everything you hoped for, but probably was everything you expected. Yeah, I think these games are interesting, because there's very few of these games that happen now where it feels like both managers sort of agree to play the game on the same terms. And I think in the past, that's always been the recipe for, I think, what neutrals would call a boring game, right? Because both teams want to control the game with and without the ball. And essentially, when you don't have the ball, you're trying to cause problems to the team with the ball and vice versa. And the game then takes the, you know, the form of a chess match where you have these like tweaks and counts just to be clear, but they're in quotation marks. Well, yeah, because it's not very much like a chess match at all, is it really? You said it though. No one was suggesting it. It's you were mucking off people who would say that. That's right. That was great. That was a great layer to that comment. But I was also using it at the same time. You were having your game. I was. You were trying to control the ball both in and out. I was having the ball. It was really, really, really clever. Thanks, man. But yeah, and that's sort of sort of what we saw in in this game. I think what was really interesting, Liam and I were talking about this just before we came on air on air. And we're not on air, are we? Not really. I mean, yes. We're on air now. It feels like we're floating on air. But surely on air, there was no microphones. There was just two piles having a chat when we were off air. We were off air. Yeah. Just like we are now. And Liam was saying that after the the match, Resenium was making these comments about how he felt there's though the performance the performance was good. We were let down on what was it? Set pieces and discipline. Yeah, right? Which are part of performance, famously. Yeah. But I was in that way. He said, he said, he said, Arsenal have, have like a great discipline and great corners, two things we don't have or something like that. I don't know whether you're thinking of what he said or what I wrote, which is maybe you wrote that, that we, that Arsenal have great discipline and a great goalkeeper. That's what you wrote that tweet and I read that tweet and really struggling to link memories with like, really attributed it to, to a famous book one. To another Liam. To a different Liam, yeah. I think what's interesting about that is that he's clearly considering the game to be that, you know, the space where they've agreed to play on the same terms. And he's been like, oh, we, we largely understood what Arsenal were going to try and do. We were largely able to stop them from doing it. Yeah. But yeah, as Liam says, that's, I think it's funny to almost use that as an excuse to be like, well, what more can we do? We, we performed well when the reason why set pieces and discipline is so important is because games have become so tight that you need to use those as, as a means of breaking games open. So, but yeah, that was very much the way that the game panned out. Chelsea, I thought Chelsea played well in terms of the performance as, as Liam Rosennia said, maybe Liam, yeah, Liam Tony, they blur into one in my head. I'm not going to, I'm not going to lie. Yeah. But yeah, I think in those terms, we were saying it before as well. I think, wait, wait, when you were off air or on air? I think we were off air when we said this, but I think there's generally a consensus among people that like, if a coach is good, then they should come into any team and make them able to beat any other team, right? Don't tell Spurs fans. But the reality is, is that that's often hard to do, especially when you're playing against the team, like Arsenal. So, I saw a staff the other day, yesterday, I guess it would have been, that said, I think Michael Atecher is now beaten Rosennia three times, which is more than any other Chelsea coach he's beaten in the last, he's come across in his whole tenure or something like that. That's not a very good set because he's really played any other Chelsea coaches more than three times. So he's got the record there. But I thought it was a good performance from Chelsea, and I think it was sort of very reminiscent, as I say, of some of those games that we would have in the last five years between maybe like a man city and a Liverpool, where it was, it was very cotton, cotton cagey, thrust and counter thrush, and no one really wants to give up too much. Arsenal managed to get their two set pieces, and that was the difference between the teams. Well, I mean, we'll come on to talk about Chelsea in a moment, but we just said, it was a good performance from Chelsea. Also good for Arsenal, but somewhat nervy, would you say? Yeah, but I think it's natural. Patrick Vieira was on the broadcast yesterday talking about what it is to kind of get over the line in that situation, to deal with the noise, to deal with the anxiety within a team structure, and a lot of players who haven't done something before. And I think also, Yemris has got to that point where it feels in reach now, and anytime there's a setback, you can hear the anxiety in the stadium, which is completely understandable. It's been very, very long times. It's also able to win the league. It was the most anxious stadium I've been in, and quite a lot of times. I'm not surprised. I'm not surprised. And also they've had a couple of really bad moments. I mean, you know, the Walls game is really poor, the way that ended had to be very, very difficult. And so you become a chin to what's going to go wrong once you have this kind of position in the league, and you know what to look for. Yeah, and actually Chelsea played well. I think there was enough about Chelsea yesterday to stoke that anxiety a little bit, especially the way they play through our Sons midfield. And certainly from open play, they looked more dangerous. I'm kind of impressed by Chelsea, actually. Right up. Actually, I was going to ask Liam, what are we here? Is there a working theory on the discipline issue for Chelsea? We refer to, of course, the fact that is it nine different Chelsea players this season now. Yes, there's a technicality isn't there, Liam, that you wrote about in terms of it's technically 10 across Chelsea staff this season. Yeah, because my rescue was sent off against Liverpool. But that, I mean, that was probably the most excusable in that he was running to join a mass pylon after the rest of ours winner. Yeah. I don't think he had any regrets. But it's been nine different players across all repetitions. It is not a Premier League record because they've had seven different players in the Premier League and the record is eight. What about two? Very close. Who holds the title? Sunderland in 2009, 10 and a, I believe, a lesser team from the mid 90s. Oh, wow. The total number of red cards in the season. What's that record? Is that? I don't know if it's a record in all competitions. Right. Okay. I think that they are pushing up against history on a number of runs. It's only March. They're not going to get champions league. Just get that record. Why is it? Every time it happens, someone gets criticized publicly. So today, I'll be Pedro Netto for what is like a moment that probably changed the game because it felt like they were just really angry when it happened and also the decision to make that tackle is that car hard to defend. And yet, it never seems to correct. What's the, what's the working, working theory behind that? Well, with great timeliness, I wrote a piece for the athletic breaking down Chelsea's 10 red cards that people can read. And the two things that struck me, I think are one, there were three last manfals in them, which are just obviously automatic red cards. And the other thing that's happening, I think, is that a certain number of yellow cards are baked into the way Chelsea play. They're aggressive. They hunt the ball. You are going to get tackles wrong. You're going to pick up yellow cards sometimes by design, rather than by accident because you're trying to stop counterattacks. What is also happening is because they pick up so many other cards for dissent and things that are easily avoidable. They're eliminating the margin for error. Well, you can say one yesterday when he's showing straight dissent by just banging the ball into the top. Yeah, and you can imagine if that happens in the first half, then he's a real live risk to get sent off at some point in the game. But as it was, Pedro Netto gets a yellow card for dissent. And it was two minutes and 58 seconds between that him being shown the red card for a tackle that it felt like it felt like you could see the cogs going Gabrielle Martin, Ellie's head because he got the ball. He got Netto 1v1 and kind of stopped. I was like, I'm just going to knock this down the line and see what happens. So if he doesn't accuses Arsenal player of cheating. It's a smart thing. It is like, you may be careful with what you put into the edge of the cards on this one card, right? But it's like, why wouldn't you ask the question as a winger in that situation? Especially Martin Ellie was fresh, Netto wasn't. Netto had had to track back. And you've already seen that he's running hot from a couple of minutes earlier. I thought it was a good example of good game IQ on Arsenal's side and really bad game IQ from Chelsea, which is what we've seen time and again this season. Over your shoulder, I can see producer Steve nodding furiously, Arsenal praise. It makes him so happy. Let's do some Chelsea praise. I'm just trying to make sure I get a favourable edit. Exactly. It's a survival mission from in this podcast. What's the Reese James? I was trying to think of Reese James's name for the last five minutes. And then as soon as I knew as soon as I thought I was speaking, it would come out of my mouth. That's how my brain works. Anyway, I watched Reese James in this game. I did watch it. I watched him. I watched it, John. I watched him and I thought, God, if he was fit all the time, he's excellent. He's f***ing amazing, isn't he? It's his delivery. He was so incredible. He's the best footballer at Chelsea. You think that's been true for a long time. It's just a shame that he's still kind of on a sort of LED King-esque plan where he's he's fit. There's nothing really, there's nothing wrong with him physically, but he's had so many problems in recent years that there is just such an abundance of caution about his minutes load. Right. That he'll play on a weekend and a weekend and then won't play the midweek or if they want him to play the midweek because it's a Champions League season, then a trade-off will have to be made a weekend. And there was an example earlier this season where that Marasca didn't make that trade-off and it was a real source of tension with the medical department because I think they know how good Reese James is. They also know how important he is as a presence in this team. This isn't a team with a ton of leaders. And I think while just an easy club captain. He is club captain and I think for a while, at least at the start, that was a burden that seemed to sit uneasily with him and he was called out publicly by Marasca about his lack of leadership at a time when he wasn't playing. Right. Which clearly meant that criticism was more about what was happening off the pitch and how vocal he was being Cobham and and I think he's he's made massive strides in that. You can see it in the way he conducts himself. You hear about things that he's doing behind the scenes or ranging team dinners and speaking to less established players and the squad. He's embracing that responsibility. The problem is that there is a cap on how much influence you can have as captain if you're not on the pitch all the time. And he's still not at a point where he can be on the pitch all the time. But his quality has never been in doubt. He's a phenomenal footballer. Does he train in every session? What does he get excused a couple so that he can just work like? Yeah, I wouldn't necessarily know if we'd get told if he missed the session or to every now and then. But I mean, we haven't heard anything about him being limited recently. Okay. But I think it's just a case of in terms of those really high intensity competitive minutes, they just watch them really carefully. Yeah, it's just because you mentioned Dudley King and he didn't train at all. Yeah, he basically spent all week in a pool. I don't think it's like that. And then it's amazing that he was able to contribute to the level that he was. It's kind of it's so sad because you're always left wondering what a player could have been by the end of his career. I don't have those opportunities. Well, particularly when you watch games like yesterday, because I felt as the brilliant. It was he was like watching Kevin De Bruyner for parts of the game. Do you know, do you know, I mean, it was like the impact that he had on the game was huge. Of all of Chelsea's players, he was clearly the one that was more likely to make something happen. He's like Trent Alexander Arnold, but with physicality. Yeah, he can really dominate physically as well as technically, but technically, he's absolutely on that level. Absolutely. Well, one downside for Chelsea, I suppose, would be that they have now conceded. Oh, I've been signed out of the Google Doc. It's perfect timing, isn't it? It's perfect timing. I think what I was saying was they've conceded seven set-piece goals under Resenia in not that many 13 matches. 13 matches. Is that, I mean, that is a problem. Why is that happening? Well, Resenia was asked about it after the game in his press conference and said that they'd switched up their scheme defensively in the week leading up to the Arsenal game. So it was a new defensive scheme. And we saw actually one very noticeable difference from the Carabell Cup game, which I was talking to you about, John. Off air. Off air. Was it off air? It's good to step at that. Was that in the Carabell Cup game at the Emirates, they had this quite quirky gambit where they would set up to defend with all 10 outfield players. And then suddenly three of them would sprint up field. Oh, yeah. That was given the Arsenal players the choice of whether to stay or to track them back and Arsenal made the choice to track them back. And it left a bit more room for Robert Sanchez to maybe come and claim the ball. Did that catch on against Arsenal? Did we see any other things? No, and they didn't do it in this game. And when Resenia was asked about it, he said it was because he went back and analysed those set pieces in Arsenal very nearly scored. And they also assumed that Arsenal would have prepped for it this time around. It was kind of a double bluff all this time. More space for Rob Sanchez is also more space for like Gabrielle, right? So it's definitely a trade off. It's risky. And I guess maybe the biggest impact you get from something like that is that it's unusual. And they may be not prepped for it, which is why Resenia would say. In general, like Arsenal scoring two goals from Corners against Chelsea was like the polar opposite of you couldn't write it. It's as if there was like an undergraduate script writer who just like just asked chat GPT for that. Yeah, what's the most likely? Yeah, plot line. Should we talk about Corners quickly? Just because I'd be curious to find out from the from the rest of the table what people think. I think it has to stop. It's crazy. Corners in general, they have. Corners have to be then. No, I mean, I'm even thinking, you know, isn't that there's a proposal to change the rules around time wasting from next season, right? So for example, a defensive positioning if time wasting is called can become an attacking play. So for example, if a goalkeeper takes too long over a goal kick, that could become an offensive corner, right? It's an offensive goal kick. Yeah. Exactly. They should do the same with corners. If you take too long on a corner, then the other team gets the corner of the other end of it. Can you imagine how boring they're trying to be like people walking down? They should take it from the same end. You just have to take it almost like a goal kick from a corner kick. Like if a game of rugby was only lineouts. Exactly. Yeah, it would be great fun. I mean, you know, that's kind of what it was like watching Chelsea versus Arsenal yesterday. But my point is more that we saw this when when Manchester United played Everton last weekend, we saw the well, there's one other example of the game I watched recently. I can't remember what it is. It's it's it's everywhere. It's so regular. It's it's caught. I mean, obviously, Arsenal have have perfected this art. They're absolutely incredible at it. And you know, I think I think often it does go without saying i.e. it should be said. It's because they have, you know, one or two absolutely incredible corner kick takers. They have brilliant personnel. Yeah, you've got those takers. And you've got Gabrielle who leaps like a salmon. I mean, so you know, we can I'm not not trying to take away anything from Nicholas Jovelle, who's the set piece coach. But they have all of the right players to achieve this. They've optimized everything they can optimize. But they've also done that. Yeah. But every ununderstandably, every other Premier League team, I think, is looking at this and thinking, well, we've always been a bit archived at corners. But why don't we all just stand on top of the goalkeeper? And somehow this isn't a foul. I watch every week. I watch. And I think, and this isn't even I'm not even having a pop up at Declin Rice for holding on to which, which have appeared. Yeah, Pedro with both arms. Elbowing the ball, not getting called up for it. This happens every single corner for every single team. Surely, like the people who make rules in football are looking at this and thinking, well, we're going to have to talk about this this summer. This is the meat shield era of Premier League football. I feel like this is this is a product of the way the game is appreciated in England, which is it's very flip-floppy. Yeah. The interpretation around what's fine and what's not. It goes back and forth and it happens during the season itself, even week to week. Sure. So what we'll have next week is because there's been a lot of conversation about because we're asking people where penalty is. Yeah. And so someone of the PGMOL will say, right, well, this week, let's let's be super strict about it. And it'll go away and people start talking about something else. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What you can't- Four-old Spurs are going to concede a penalty for that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because Spurs seem to be a weak behind with the referee and so on. He's busy, mezel, by the way. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think they'll be, you know, sort of the goal, people just be shoved into the back of the net with the ball and that'll be fine. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think nearly touched his hand penalty. Finals are fine. It was incidental contact. I think with this kind of thing, it's really unfair to change the rules in the middle of a season. Yeah. You have to go into a summer and say, look, we're going to tweak this. We're going to make it. I don't know. So that if you're actually grabbing an opponent, that's that's not allowed. They do so at the beginning of every season, though, right? And then it lasts for about two weeks and they don't do it. But then that's the flip popping nature, John. It's just they're not strong enough with a lot of these things. And it's not just this rule. It just happens to be, we're talking about this because it's such a big part of the season and then asking for so much success. Yeah. And it's not an arsenal problem. It's just they do it better than everybody else and they're leading the lead. I'm not ready to accept that. By the way, I know, I know, sorry, I know that's the, I know I hear a lot of people say that. He's he's Steve is glaring. Of course. And I'm happy. I'm happy to take the pelters for this. I know that every team you ever seen a podcast where the host gets edited out. I know that the every team gets a little dodgy at corners. I'm not saying that though, there isn't grabbing in the box that always has it, right? There's always been grabbing in the box of corners. What arsenal do is not the same thing. What they pioneered, what they started to do, what Michael Noreno dreams of at night when he goes to sleep, is standing on the feet of a goalkeeper and preventing them from moving and like, perfecting the art of not of it not being a foul because they haven't moved their body towards the thing that I disagree with you. I think this has become, we analyse this in much more detail in the Bay Area because it's a little more exaggerated now, but previously, they used to be shenanigans except pieces that it was generally accepted. Our referee can't be expected to see four different things at the same time. I was watching the highlights of the Chelsea Barcelona game, the Rinaldenio game from back in the day, and Aaron remembers the Rinaldenio goal and Chelsea's winning goal, but it's a huge foul by John Terry on Victor Valdez and in the build up to that, but it's kind of, well, it's not unforgivable. It wasn't it for John Terry's header, it was Ricardo Carvalho. Sorry, you did well. Yeah, it's Terry's header and Carvalho is just blocking Valdez out the way and I think he might also be offside for it. So it's just it's a it's a function of the way we look at the game as a result of applying the VR lens. I'm not erasing the past. No, I'm not. I can't remember the past. I can't even remember who re-strains it. I caveated my point at the beginning by saying I know that, you know, since time immemorial, everyone's been doing it. You can't cast your point. I think Arsenal do it. Of course I can. I think Arsenal do it like specifically badly a bit more. It's it's always been an art Arsenal have made it in science. Yeah, that's I think that's it. But like I again, I disagree. I think of like during the 2018 World Cup, where England were very good set pieces, have McGuire and Stones and there was all the nonsense that was going on. Okay, no one was really on top of the goalkeeper, but there was a lot of stuff happening there. And I think again, I hate myself as saying this, I can't really blame Arsenal for it. I don't like this. I'm not blaming them. Well, it feels like we are because it feels like we're trying to discredit something. They do very, very well. And it's allowed by the officials. Right. So it's fine. It's it's only officials to agree. I agree. Not set the presence, which allows that piece coaches to go away and go. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fine. You can barge a goalkeeper. But that's why I said at the beginning, like, that, you know, that it's an officiating problem and that the people need to do something. In the same way, for example, that like the crystal palace red card and penalty that was given away. This is the Laquah one. Yeah, the Laquah one. By the letter of the law, that's a penalty in a red card. And I don't know anyone that watched that, thought that should be a penalty in the red card. Yeah, it's an officiating problem. Yeah, and I think it's the same with with corners. Arsenal are incredible at them. They're incredible. They should be praised. And they I'm not saying they should have points taken away. They should win when the league on the basis of of of how incredible they are at scoring from corners. I just think it's not in the spirit of the game to to to block the goalkeeper. I agree. And if I were to make the laws again, I would I would stipulate that too. But I would also say like we've got to remember that Arsenal's delivery is very good. The way they move their players is very good. The way that they take advantage of the loopholes that exist in the laws is really really good. And I think those two conversations have to be allowed to happen at the same time, really. But then it's kind of this is not a new issue. The reason we we struggle with time wasting in football is because referees week. And so players have been allowed to get away with it to the point where now they're legislating. I'm creating new rules to kind of to solve a problem which needn't exist in the first place. Like there's no rational reason why a player should ever have been allowed to spend 60 seconds taking a throw in. And yet we've all seen that a million times in every league across Europe. And now we're kind of all let's make a new law. It's like no, it's not the way to do it. You just have to you have to have officials who are more diligent. I think the issue with set pieces for me is not that Arsenal are good at them but that they've become too influential on outcomes in the game. And it's not even it's not I'm not even saying they're there for penalty shouldn't sorry corner shouldn't result in goals to the extent that they do. The issue for me is that they are having a negative impact in open play football. And I guess for me I just feel instinctively like the corner was always just a way of restarting the the game in a certain condition right. And and and regard despite the fact that you said before like set pieces are part of performance. I do think that if if your game gets to a point where you know a means of restarting the game becomes an important means of scoring to the detriment of the actual open play stuff. Yeah. I think you've got a problem on your hands which is why it's why it's why it's I would even go beyond an officiant rule. I think it's a league that the the league officials who run what do we call that is the Premier League. Yeah. Yeah. It is a officiant but like let's you know. Yeah. Let's let's for me it's less like the the referees and more it's an issue for the for the Premier League right because if the league becomes determined by what happens in these set plays. Yeah. And and again like maybe you know that sports exist where they are determined by set plays right. NFL is is basically a sport which is set piece based right. Yeah. You can do that and we could let football go that way. But I think if it comes to the detriment of open play stuff. Yeah. You're losing something about football that is intrinsic to it. Well you could make that argument as it applies to NBA or basketball as well because it's similar kind of tactical development that we've seen in basketball over the last 10-15 years or so is that it's it's very different from the situation with a set of pieces but it affects the game in the same existential way potentially is that teams have realized there's no point taking mid-range jumpers. AKA like where you get two points but you're not right underneath the net. You are either you drive into the paint and you get a layup or a dunk or you you take a three from outside. A bad three is better than a bad two exactly and and the reason is in basketball is because of the of the math like the if you if getting a 50% extra point on top of the points you get from a normal hope makes it worthwhile in the longer run. But what it does what it's meant is that as teams have optimized to that degree over 10 years you end up seeing teams that play exactly the same kind of quite boring basketball over and over again. Now that you know that's maybe a slight exaggeration and some people some people would say that that's just something that happens in an organic sport. People optimized in a certain area and then when everybody's there they have to optimize back again. You could make the argument that with set pieces for example defenses are going to catch up. Everyone's been praising center lamens in the last couple of weeks for you know being able to command his penalty area and punch those things away. Maybe as as as as defenses catch up then teams won't be able to take these opportunities and they'll have to try and optimize somewhere else. I think I would push back against that because I think even if they were to optimize for defending set pieces that is going to change the profile of players that you bring in that's going to change the the open play situation. I see it what's happened especially in terms of Arsenal is that in part the reason why they've had to rely on set pieces more is because they've optimized for the defensive side of the game and that's had knock on impact on their ability to create chances in open play not least tactically but also because some of the profiles that they've brought in and therefore as a result they've had to lean into the into the set piece side of things and I think what would happen then is if you changed the rules of the game so that it became harder to score set pieces it would no longer be tactically viable for Arsenal to play the way that they they they do they wouldn't be able to compete at the top of the table and so it would it would have to I think press on some kind of evolution where they ended up going back to being I guess more technical. Yes John change the rules yeah this is this this is the story of football isn't it like the tactical evolution has always been tied to changes in rules change the offside rule in particular yeah changes in all evolutions within players as well like the way you what what abilities do you privilege in center halves for instance do you want your big thumping seven-footer or do you want someone you can play with the ball in the floor do you want your fallback to be six-foot class yeah and good in the air to be an auxiliary set piece threat or do you want them to be effectively a number ten on the ball but every go number ten's even exist anymore I need every goalkeeper to look like I would look at them on you know would mark would Marcelo be a leftback that any top Premier League club looks to sign right now because of that's true the way it's all going and the set piece it's really good because apparently the the player that spurs sign the fallback that spurs sign salsa apparently he's the next Marcelo right again just the right right the sharp edge if that's the case then if it's just an era thing where you know teams optimize for something and then optimize away and what what is efficient changes over time then rate to this era out of ten out of your favorites like is this one that you are enjoying more as a viewer is this one that you're enjoying less no I can't say I'm really enjoying this particular style of football because a lot of the set some some set peacock set set peacocks some set peacocks some set peacocks are nice to watch when you get a really I love the way he started that again as though we're not going to keep it happy peacocks are staying it's still free to give us a clean edit but that's the peacocks would mix it up what is the set what is a set peacock is that that's not like an open place the next evolution it's the next distraction you just plant a peacock in the middle of the penalty area and then just have runners going off they'll be quite good defensively I think with when they stick their tail up it's like cover a lot of great good screening is that terrifying man peacocks I would I would I stayed in there being be on a sort of land like I wrote on some land on some land and oh peacocks there and there was a polite notice that said oh please enjoy the peacocks but they were they were the peacock they're f***ing vicious peacocks make sure you don't swing it any corners yeah yeah yeah yeah that's true I mean yeah if you get like an emphatic header from a corner that's nice that's nice a lot of the goals that we're seeing are kind of the ball being bundled over the line sure with the goalkeeper falling backwards that's true into the net with it and I just like I can't believe that was a crystal penalty header against Man United this weekend that was a that was a lovely set piece goal wasn't it you know the arching header I thought the first Arsenal set piece was really good it was remarkable I thought it was beautiful like the find it just the accuracy of the ball to the back post Gabri will be able to just jump over everyone get it back into the dangerous area I thought it was a lot I find it quite interesting like in isolation the sort of the the punch and counter punch aspect of it what do you do to negate it so we were talking about that Chelsea tactic of running players up the pitch it's you you get to see like someone like John sees a million different things technical things happening in a game at any one time sure but for me by watching highlights oh that's an interesting thing for the lay viewer it's quite fun I mean it's not a spectacle but then we've have we've we've had overcoached football in the Premier League before so if you think back to the kind of the the Joe Simmerinho Raffa Benitez games the Liverpool Chelsea matches from from that era god they were boring no matter how hard try a sky try to kind of over height them and grandstand Sunday and Super Sunday and title of the side it always felt like it was a single DDA drop of gold amidst an a sea of shit and and now we view it solely through the nostalgic presence of highlight packages right and that all you remember is the Michael Sien goal against Arsenal with the outsiders but whereas anytime you allow and Joe's point about American sport is quite pertinent because anytime you allow coaches to have too much influence which is what the stock start nature of American sport does it makes them kind of set pieces I think you lose a little bit of something from the game because it's supposed to be a player led sport really I mean that that's the fluid nature of football so this is not like this is not a new moral panic because Arsenal are winning and doing it well and and have become very good at corners I think there's just a it's just a cyclical thing that's come around it's true isn't it is that you know this is um we live in a great time of logic and efficiency don't we where where the culture really seems to prize those things and I understand why it's capitalism that's that's why and also it's a people's specific predilections but also I would say let you know apply it to something else think like I'm going on holiday for example I could plan the fuck out of that and I could have the exact holiday that I was expecting to have and I could make sure that all of my little commutes between areas were the most efficient possible and I spent the precise correct amount of time in every single place with the peacock and to be honest it's the kind of thing I would do but that's also maybe why I don't enjoy holidays right isn't the whole point that you know something happens that you didn't expect or you you know there's that there's a kind of margin for for doubt or or or gray area within which new things occur I do think that's an interesting point though because you know the I guess every every sport every everything with a set of rules invites itself to be optimised right and I think that's precisely why if you want to if if if you think the enjoyment of a sport is being able to do that and to impose control on the game then sure like you'll find it enjoyable but I think most people the ability to have those bits around the edges where you can't control which changes things which is why they're like football yeah there's an intrinsic aspect to the sport as well and so with the set piece thing what we're saying there is if set pieces allow the completion of the sport so that the sport almost becomes a matter of fact then what are we losing something there that is intrinsically what what fans want to watch and I think the way that you change that is by consistently as Liam said changing the laws that's what's happened the offside law is just a classic example you can go back through a hundred years of football history and essentially whenever it gets to a point where it's harder for a team teams to score goals you change the offside rule in favor of the attackers and suddenly get more goals again and and that's what and that's what people want I mean people will point now and say well you know this there's never been more goals scored this season than in the last five years or whatever but I think the nature of a lot of those goals as well is it it has become so matter of fact the the goals that you score it's like you'll see what is it Arsenal 30 set piece goals this season or something like that cross all competitions that's 30 of very similar sort of goals being scored and I think unless you can protect the ability for for games to be strange and unusual then you run the risk of losing your audience and I think that's what the again the codifiers of the game as we said before that's their responsibility to keep the sport interesting enough for fans to watch it hey can we just mention a really cool story that James Nicholas has has published so it's just come out so we can mention it now but Nicholas Jover actually has a set piece goal bonus clause in his contract that's kind of cool isn't it yeah as a story not is he encouraging players to hit the ball off opponents to to play for court almost certainly because almost certainly there's probably that dynamic at work within the Arsenal coaching structure well there we go that was a fun conversation wasn't it now let's play the rondo yes very exciting Liam welcome to the rondo you excited beyond you'll be you'll be beyond excited good lord well hopefully it'll it'll be worth it let me first say credit to Payton from the Tifa football discord for last week's rondo today's I've sort of adapted a suggestion from member Danny so thanks to both of you for your rondo suggestions something was caught and it was a whole episode of the podcast it was a whole rondo del Rey there because it was a judged too hard although I do want to say said one it with a 100% response record it just happened that you only had to give two answers in order to win so we've decided to abandon that one and and do a different one instead we've worked out a simpler version of it and now here it is the category for today's rondo is as simple as this it's very very simple can you name teams that have won the Europa League or the UEFA Cup which was its predecessor the prior named competition twice or more twice or more there are 14 correct answers and here's how the rondo works it goes as this we go round in a circle as soon as you I take too long to give me an answer or you give me an incorrect answer you are out and the last person standing is named del rondo ray or whatever it is like a rondo do ray and now it's incorrect like it is named rondo del Rey right let us begin said with you please say a team that is one the Europa League or the UEFA Cup twice or more severe severe have won it seven times so they count they're in there get off the board Liam Chelsea Chelsea have won it twice yeah 2013 and 2019 congratulations John I'm going to say I'm track frank for frank for her for one at twice in 1980 and 2022 so Tottenham Tottenham won it three times actually yeah Liam let's go midred at let's go midred if one at three times back to you John oh vrl oh the suspense is good vrl are not on the list no sad now these teams got to pick their teams so I guess that's too not what he leads no no because I've already answered twice correctly so he's eliminated ahead of me that's true basically it's done he's had an entire section about like law enforcement and you're not doing you're not it's your turn he forced the laws it's your turn now remember there's a time limit and I'm reaching the point where I start counting down from five okay five four three two one thirty four four four four four four four four four four four four four four four four four four four four four four four four four four four four four four four four four four four four four four four four four four four four four four four four four four four four four four four four four four four four four four four 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there no good. I have K. Gotta burger there though Swedish team 82 and 87 Palmer have won it twice 90. Oh, no, yeah, no, no, no, they didn't be Arsenal. I've asked them on the way to Zaragoffa. Yeah, they beat them on the way to the Zaragoffa. I'm not even final. Yeah, there you go. Well, that was it. Yeah, I know what was the last one. No one one. There's no more than every other. Yeah, everyone loves that. There's a lot of fun we had. Yeah, it was a lot of fun, wasn't it. Do you not mean that Kair is kept it because he was the reigning Ronda Deere Ray from the last day. I guess that's technically true. No, again, you can't make a rule. The entire podcast has been about this, Steve. But when you're weak and flailing in the wind, you can't. No, no, no. Okay. I think Seb feels like he won you know, like the equivalent of the old version of the club world club before it was expanded and now that one, no one, no one takes a seriously. Seb, it's gaudy over thought replacement. Okay. Congratulations to Kair who retains the Ronda Del Ray title there until next episode where we will return with another Ronda. Congratulations on what I thought was a good performance, though. Thank you very much. Yeah, and to you, Liam, is a debut times. Thank you, Joe. Thanks. Thanks, Joe. Not you, not you. Now, let's talk talking. Sorry, Mike. I got a break. And then get a break. What are you going to do? Yeah. Does he think I'm going to give him a clean break? He can't have a clean break. He's going to have to cut over me. We're back from a break where things were cut because I have a mutiny happening in the studio. We've decided against doing a certain segment because of fears in the room. Imagine that fears. I've got an original point to make. What's that? So, no, there's no time for to announce it. Do you think Arsenal or Mancities running this? Which one do you think? Is it Arsenal or Mancities running as either? Well, on reflection, I don't care about any of that. I was just whilst you were doing talking. I was watching a trailer for a modded version of Provision Soccer. A modded version? Yeah. And it made me think, how ridiculous is it? I mean, there's an amazing piece of work I'm watching. There are any trade-offs. None so far that we are still relying on kind of the Provision Soccer community to produce a good football game for any console or PC. Yeah. Obviously it's modded so it can't be on console. Yeah. Yeah. When you say modded, it means just made up to date. Yeah, but also with loads of tweaks, this one's a it's a World Cup 98 edition. And the quality is unbelievable. To the point where they've replicated specific moments from the tournament. And it's fabulous. It's well done to the people that made it, of course, but it's also, hey guys, make us say a playable version EA sports or Konami, please. It'll never happen. It'll never happen. All right, that's the plan. Come on. Oh, we're off plan now Steve. No, no, no, no, we're off plan. It's kind of, of course, it's very frustrating because I know I'm in my 40s now, so not everything has to be about what I want. But, and oddly, the game you enjoy the most was from 1998. No, there's a middle ground here. I really enjoyed the Prohibition Soccer series until probably 2021 when it when it became whatever it is now the online. E-Football. Yeah, don't really don't really care for that. I don't really understand it. It's the unsuitification of culture, right? It's like it's it's also there's no master league. There's no tournament modes. It's just this weird big kind of ultimate team replicant. It's very strange. E-Football is. Yeah, I only ever played it the one time. Is it still people still playing it? It's free, isn't it? You can play it. It's free to play. I've never actually played it. Never actually played it. I just remember playing two children now. Yeah, when we were playing back in 1998 and we were playing, though, it was just such a simpler game, right? It was just you would you would just go in the game and play again. And now it just feels like it's become, I don't know. On the one hand, it's become way more complex, but also the gameplay, which is supposed to be the enjoyable thing has gotten worse, right? And I don't really understand it. Well, why is it difficult? It's got worse. The gameplay. Yeah, the gameplay has. Yeah, but I don't understand why. But why do you say it's got worse? They don't even let you hold it corners. It's unbelievable. And there's no fear. I think because there's so much emphasis on realism. No, well, realism, yes, because graphically everything's really advanced now, but also you don't have to engage people in the same ways because you've got ultimate team, you've got micro transactions, you've got, I read something of a day and I don't know if it's true, but apparently the new EASC is going to feature in open worlds. I don't want that. I want I want I don't want that. That's what I mean. Like, you know, they do this in the in the NBA game, the NBA 2K games, like all anyone wants to do is just place. I just want to play this like open world, like almost RPG type situation. If they did it, if they did a medieval fee for where it's like two villages versus one another, that would be fun. Yeah, sure, that would be fun. And let me tell you the rules about holding in that game. Yeah, yeah, they were. You're only allowed to hold if you've stabbed someone with a pipe. Yeah. Anyway, okay, fine. We're not going to talk about who run ins in the Premier League Steve. We've decided. Apparently. Can I talk about Arsenal being nervy though? I wanted to talk about that because I did mind. Did you notice on that? He doesn't want to talk about three other things, but now he wants to talk about the thing he's already talked about. Should we take away him talking about Villa? Should we take that away from him? Yeah, I don't want to do that anyway. He doesn't want to do anything that's on the plan. You have been manipulative. This is the problem. I'm quite I'm a fan of the new format of the T-fo podcast. Yeah, yeah, you and all the viewers are going to love this. This massive mess of an episode. Sure, talk about whatever the fuck you want. What is it? What is it? Nerviness? Well, no, I mean, you've brought that up earlier when I was going to, but I was letting my own. I'm not going to be upset that the stadium was a nervous. I wouldn't have felt anyway. Often when we talk about Nerviness, it's entirely thrown out as like a this is a purely psychological thing, right? It's the players and are worried about like, you know, losing games and it's understandable and we can understand that right? Because we've all been in situations where we're nervous. I'm quite nervous now because I've derailed the podcast and you're looking at me quite angrily. I have never been in a more nervous podcast studio in my life. We could be the Arsenal fan 7 just provide the anxious hub. Every time I make a bad point. But what I talked about in my Did you notice was that actually a big part. You talked about this somewhere else already on the internet. Yeah. Well, it's not actually all the fans. It's not already out, but it will be well. I think what's so interesting about this is that actually Arsenal seem to be more nervous in winning game states. So you remember the Manchester United game where they went one year up. Yeah. Looked pretty comfortable up until that point and then after that point, they seem to become quite nervy. And I think part of the reason for that is because the way that Arsenal are so good on the ball is that they use a huge amount of position flexibility. Their players are always rotating around to make it easier for them to possess the ball, move the ball down the field. And that kind of fluidity is really good for what you want to do on the ball. But when it comes to the defensive side of the game, actually what you want is structure and rigidity to a certain extent. And I think when I'm also going to winning game states at the moment, what they're doing is they're becoming much less fluid and flexible in possession. And as a result, it's becoming much harder for them to possess the ball well. And so what they're doing is ending up going direct a lot more because of that. And as a result of that, they're looking way more nervy in those situations where they really shouldn't be feeling more nervy. It's almost like they stop playing well as soon as they're in a winning game state. And I think that's kind of really interesting. We've seen it in a few games now, actually, I think the same happened in this Chelsea game. I think when Arsenal went ahead, they stopped doing the things as well as they were when allowed Chelsea to get back in and the same happened again. Because they're afraid of conceiving. Yeah, right. So they were crazy stats comparing the number of passes Chelsea completed versus Arsenal when Chelsea were down to 10 men. Yeah, I didn't actually see the numbers, but even first half to second half, Arsenal made 60 fewer passes in the second half in a half where they were ahead for longer than they were in the first half. And I think that's a really interesting aspect of what Arsenal are really because Arsenal are a fantastic team in terms of controlling possession. And we talk a lot about control all the time with Arsenal. It's like, oh, they're trying to be too controlling. But it's almost like in the recent few months, they've actually been worse at controlling the games, which is why they've they've looked a little bit more shaky. And I think it's because then they're they're prioritising out of possession control and rigidity and structure over the impossession side where they where they have the ability to be fluid and possess the ball really well and actually not allow opponents any kind of significant goal. It's also because of injuries, though, right? Like, however, it's not being there makes a big difference to how they press, doesn't it? Yeah, yeah, and I odigard as well. I think, you know, odigard gets a bad rap, I think, from Arsenal fans. Was it Keith Andrews? I think gave an interview the other day who said... Brentford coach? Yeah, the Brentford coach. He said, you know, I've been watching Arsenal tapes back and when they have odigard pressing out the front, they they they are so much better out of possession. And he said that they press differently when he's not there. And you know, these are the sorts of things that coaches are talking about. And I think, yeah, there's definitely a huge amount of aspects that come into this football is a complex game. But I do think that it is interesting that, you know, that the nerves do have a sort of very tangible tactical impact. It's not just all the players are nervous. It's impacting their decision making. So they're not doing the things that as well that they were doing in the same game earlier on. And it's weird maybe that it's attached to winning game states rather than, you know, these other game states where you you could feasibly be more nervous when you're not winning, right? Sure. But they've got something to lose. Yeah, when they're drawing, they've got to score, right? So they have to possess the ball well, whereas when they're winning, they don't have to possess the ball as well. And so they're like, well, let's prioritize the defensive structure. And I think that's a really interesting aspect of like you almost have to continue playing as though you're, you know, when people say, it's no, no lands when you're playing when you're playing Sunday League football. It's always in that voice as well. The person who tells that. Yeah, and I think that's the interesting thing for me is that actually in some of these games, maybe Arsenal do need to play like it's still nil nil when they go up because they're actually losing control as a result of it. Yeah. Okay, well, I mean, you know, I think another reason why they might be nervous is that they, we've seen on Friday the Champions League draw happen. And Arsenal are very much on a favourable Southgate bracket. The Southgate bracket. We're looking, you'd look at that as an Arsenal fan and think, oh my god, we're going to win the Champions League or we're definitely going to get to the final. We're going to get really, really far. I'm sure people have seen this by now, but just to give you a flavour of the bracket. Here's the other side. Here's the teams that are on the opposite side of the bracket. Chelsea are there, Liam. They're playing PSG in the round of 16. Galatasaray play Liverpool. Real Madrid play Man City in the most predictable game of all time at a Lanter played by a Munich. That's the other side. Now Arsenal side. Newcastle Barcelona. A little bit tough there. At Letico Madrid, Tottenham. Well, it's hard to know. No, we're not going well. You're not going to win the Champions League based on their form in that tournament so far. Bodo Glimp versus Sporting. Incidentally, the winner of that game is the team that Arsenal, if they beat Labour Cousin, who they're matched against, will meet in the quarterfinals. So you would have to assume that there is at least a very, very winnable route to the semi-finals. The most winnable route, I would say. And I think that adds to the pressure. Yeah, it's also from the mindset there is we should do this. People get a laugh at us if we don't, if they somehow. I think so. You think about... I can't remember the run-in that Man City had, but I remember the 99 run-in for Manchester United on their way to the treble was Juventus in the semi-final. Very difficult team by Munich in the final. So in no terms, we're semi-final of the semi-final of the FA Cup as well. So these tournaments weren't tournaments where, in March, you were looking at them and thinking, yeah, we're going to win that, for sure. Or we're going to get all the way through. I think that probably does create a little bit of pressure, doesn't it? Isn't the point that Steve's making by including this, that actually when we're considering the run-in that both teams have in the Premier League, cities is going to be necessarily tougher because, you know, if Arsenal are against by Labour Cousin, then they're going to have sporting or bowdow if they get through that game. Those are games where they can be presumably less stressed than, like, if City get through, they're probably playing by Munich after having already played Real Madrid. So I think that there's an interesting aspect there in terms of, like, if you consider the rest of City seasons as a whole across those competitions, they're still in. They've probably got the tougher run of results to get anywhere. I think so. I mean, they've got a tough run-in in the Premier League. Well, having said that, City could just lose to Real Madrid and then be out, and then would they then become favourites for the Premier League? Well, this is the first season, isn't it, that we've really seen the advantage that the new Champions League format affords to being the number one overall seed, because last year Liverpool were completely screwed over by PSG's weird arc where they just didn't get it together until January and then was suddenly the best team in Europe by a mile. How does it work? I don't understand the rules of the number one seed thing. So they just get preferable opposition in the knockout stage? Yeah, and it's in theory, but like, obviously, Liverpool were with the top seed. Yeah, as long as the seedings make sense underneath, but PSG were very much the spanner in that particular format last year. They're having the City and Real Madrid as well, right, because they both played in the playoff run. You can always game the system if you're really, really clever or if you're very, very lucky and kind of sneak through as a high seed and then get the favourable draw on the other side. It's kind of the, yeah, again, the South Gate bracket. So much disrespect for Garazza. And for Bodo Glim. Of course. I've seen theories that they are safe scumming, that, you know, they're just saving just before each game quitting and reloading to the one in 100 chance of winning. Yeah, I mean, listen, I nodded along and pretended to know what that meant. It's a video game reference set, it's such an honourable person that he would, if he knew, he would never save scum. See, I play more football manager than E-Football. Okay, there you go. Safe scumming would be where, if something bad happens, you quickly stop the game and then reload it at a previous autosave moment so that you can avoid the bad thing having happened. Chelsea do that, but to make sure that they get a red card. Or to make sure that the player goes out on loan to the correct team. Okay, fine. So Arsenal are going to win the Champions League, then we've decided. Yeah, decided. I'm still taking Bayern. You're still taking Bayern? Bayern on the tough start on the tough side of the draw. That's what it is. They're going to come through against Real Madrid or Man City in the next round. Yeah, but it's the other side of the coin, right? Because they've got 11 point lead in the Bundesliga. They can start winding down. They've got a Pac-House semi-final in April. You can start rationing minutes and making sure everybody's available for European ties only and that's no other club really in contention as the opportunity to do that with the exception. And PSG should do, but they don't because they don't have a massive advantage. And they've got a couple of key injuries, right? Exactly. So PSG also had a really tough route to the final last last time round. So there's an argument to be made that actually a tough route to the final. Obviously, he's got to win those games, but it can set you up quite well, I think, for the final. Who do you think it will win? Yeah, I think it will be an Arsenal Bayern final. And I'm not going to say anything beyond that because anything can happen in again. That's exciting. What do you think? Would be quite funny if Chelsea won, but I don't think it's the kind of thing that Chelsea do. It's the first thing I thought when I saw the bracket was like, oh, Chelsea are going to be Arsenal in the final. I do think they can beat PSG over two legs weirdly. I think they've got better chance of doing that than if they played Newcastle. Just because of the way they struggle against physicality, which Newcastle bring in PSG don't really. And there may be a little bit of a psychological edge from the club. I think when you're in Arsenal situation, you never want to play another team for your own country because it's just, it's such a one-on thing. They know, right? Yeah, exactly. It's like a leaving, leaving, you know, the town you grew up in, moving to a city, turning into a new person and then going home and meeting people from school again. That's not your accent. They know who you really are. There's a possibility of four English teams in the semis, right? Which is, I think, probably not good. I don't think it's going to happen. It's probably not going to happen. I mean, it's not, you know, Chelsea Liverpool on that side could easily both get through their games. City, city then could get to the semi-final against one of those two teams. Newcastle probably aren't going to get passed Barcelona. It's probably aren't going to get passed. Let's go. So that's probably not. Those are the two ones where it's a little bit more more open, right? Newcastle Barcelona, I think, is one of the more interesting games, though, in the round of 16. I'm not so certain about calling that. I think that's hard. No, no. I agree. Certainly at the moment with Barcelona and the way that Newcastle play, I think, there's a possibility. Newcastle can struggle to create, but it's a lot easier to create when the other team gives you the half of the pitch to attack. They're going to play a high line and say, that's true. That's true. And also, like, spurs, oh, I let it go, spurs. I just, I honestly feel like spurs. No, no, no, no, no. I think they're going to continue to lose in the Premier League. We haven't talked about them today, by the way. Incidentally, we were going to because, you know, I think everyone's social media yesterday was flooded with like short clips of inexplicably out of context, spurs, moments. The one where Vicario just kicks the ball out. The Premier League official Twitter account. Not the one. They should be worrying about the state of set-piece football, but not sharing the Premier League put it out on their official account and then had to delete it. Yeah, man, that's so ridiculous. Look at this shit part of our product. What are you thinking? It's kind of like, what is the thought process there? What is the best possible outcome of us? It's kind of like, ah, banter, baiting. It's all be funny. Engagements. Everyone will see the funny side of this. It's true. It is funny, though. It was gone by 10 o'clock I like the idea that it survived one shift and then the next manager starting was like, we can examine some of the processes that went on during the night shift. Yeah, the night shift, we're like, yeah, it'll be fine. That's not on. That's absolutely not on. Well, I think many podcasts today will be, hopefully this is one where Spurs fans will feel welcome because every other one I've listened to so far is about how they're going to make me come on as a punishment. So, no, I, you know, okay, fine. Do you think Spurs are going to get relegated? No, surely not. Of course not. Of course not. Liam, Liam, Liam, I think people are on the rest. I think people are still being a little bit complacent about it. I'm eight out of 10 afraid of it. I think there's a real charm. There's a real charm. And I, I've said this recently, I do think that the bottom of the table has been shaping up for the ultimate new no choose your own adventure revenge. Which former club would you rather relegate? And West Ham are playing the best of those teams. They're just in the deepest hole and have probably the toughest fixtures. But, you know, I, I half thought they could get something off Liverpool as it was Liverpool overwhelmed them. Yeah. I think, I mean, I think I think for us to go and count. I think the thing with Spurs is you look, look at their running, you look at where they need to recruit points. You also like think about the minimum number of points you probably need in order to be safe. I think if Spurs get one win and two draws, they're fine. And I think they'll do that in 10 games. I agree about being safe with that amount of points, but that team has no virtues whatsoever. It has, it has no, it has no strengths. They do nothing well. I don't think there are very many players in that group who have really brought in to the struggle of this. Maybe Rachaelison, a couple of the younger guys are actually great, but it, it's very listless. And I, I think people are still under appreciating just how bad they are. I saw someone tweet this morning that Rachaelison is the greatest pick ball out of the net striker of all time. He gets yellow cards most of the time when he does it as well, isn't he? It's also still, I mean, there's no one on the way back. The big kind of, one of the reasons for Johanna Langer not panicking in January was because injury situation is going to resolve herself really quickly and not at all. I just think they just need to get a lucky win and they'll get a lucky win. Who do you see them beating, though? I mean, I agree with you. I think that they are very bad. And I think it's, it's easy to be complacent against a team like Spurs, but I just think that because they've got the head start on points. We did this last night, though, didn't we? Because like, we talked about this last night with our Spurs friend. So next up, Palace is a game I can see them dropping, definitely dropping points in. Palace were pretty good against United. I thought that was pretty good at hammered. Yeah, they've got Liverpool sandwiched between those two at Letty Ties, which is, I don't know, which one of those two pirates? I think you have to just throw the Champions League games. Yeah, I think you have to be certain. You can't use that word, of course, but I think that's too practical about it. The biggest one we refer to this earlier is on the 22nd of March, that Spurs play Forrest, at which point, because I've looked at Forrest Spictures as well, I still think Spurs will be ahead of Forrest in the table, even if they haven't picked up a point. But if they lose that game, then you're looking at Sunland, Brighton, Wolves, Villa, Leeds, Chelsea, Everton. I think you get a win out of those games. I don't agree. I think they're going to be relegated. No, I think they'll probably be saved by the teams below them, not picking up enough points. Forrest or Wisdom? I agree with Liam, I think West Ham are better than either of those two teams. I think it'll be between Forrest and Spurs. I think West Ham will get themselves out of it, as long as they don't pick up an injury or two. I think they'll be okay. They'll play very well. So we all agree it's a possibility, but no one here actually thinks Spurs are going to get relegated. No, I can't. No, but you don't think they're going to. It's very real possibility. And the reason they're in the situation is because I don't think enough people at the club thought it was a real enough possibility back in January, because they were still sort of future-pounding when really the mission was to get some bodies in, shore up the team, and then go again in the summer and take the financial hit of having to do that business in January. Well, we're not going to bypass the short term. It's like, no, that's exactly what you should be doing right now. I think it's well there were complacent about the impact of like letting bad manager ten years run on. I think that there was just too much of a sense. Oh, it'll eventually come good or it won't be a bad thing. And I think you can get too deep in those sorts of ten years where it then becomes impossible to change the momentum in a positive way. Yeah, that's a far too long, far too long. They should have made changes before Christmas, and they didn't say. Okay, well, listen, we've got to play points a bad now. Maybe we'll have lots of first game. Who knows, right? Now, incredibly, and it's also amazing because he's not here today. He's on the Wednesday show this week. JJ got a perfect round. A perfect round. The games we picked, of course, you'll remember Rastal Chelsea for which he predicted to one, and Ranger's Celtic for which he predicted to. Famously, JJ has great foresight. Incredibly, incredibly good foresight. Well, this week it's true. So he finished the week on zero points, added. Kaya had a great week with two. John, you and me on the one one bot all added three together, and then Ruben sadly got barkered. I don't know if you remember that. I mean, I haven't made a pick. Oh, yeah, you're pointing back for about three months, you've been doing quite well. Good to hear. Ruben got barkered last week because he's been doing a little bit too well. So that means he added seven points. Don't worry about what that is. You'll get to play today as someone, though, and that means that the overall scores were JJ in last place on 126, me in second last on 110. John, you're on 104, shared with Ruben on 104, just behind Kaya, who's on 102, and the one one bot, of course, is on 81 flying. However, things have taken a complicated turn. Haven't they Steve Hange? Haven't they taken a turn? It's quite fitting that we've spoken about the correct due process in today's show. Now, thankfully, because of the TPO football discord, which listeners, all viewers, can join by clicking the link in the description. Come and join a fabulous community of pedants and correctors, one of whom get Miloa Life from the discord has updated the totals by going back through every single individual episode. And realizing that Steve is only human after all, who'd have thought it. So with Game Week 28 added, the difference is, now the worst, the worst one you have is a Ruben difference because Ruben really had a bad week of barking. Unfortunately, he's been barking and he's been getting Miloa Life as well. Ruben should have had three additional points, three bad points over the course of the season, which he didn't have. So that means that he would have adjusted his total to 107. I should have had two extra, as you should have John also. Kaya, Kaya, Kaya, there's losing a point. He's getting rid of a bad point. He's way further out ahead. Now, 101, John, you're now in second on 106. So there's a five point gap to make up on the tall, lanky basket. Let's get him. Right. Maybe he deserves a barkering at some point. It's the kind of match. He hasn't been barking. He hasn't been barking. I don't think so. Wow. And he would be Barker's most vociferous target. I imagine. How about that? Okay, fine. Well, today, John, you can play as yourself. Can I play as Kaya? No, Seb will have you play as Kaya. Okay, please don't bark at him. If it's okay, Liam, you'll play as Ruben. Okay. And then I'll play as me. And, uh, uh, uh, uh, Seb, you can play as J.J. Yep, Seb, uh, uh, Steve Steve, that's your name. Is there anything I need to know about? Does Ruben have a, uh, a playing philosophy that I have to adhere to? He tries to pick what the result will be. That's, that's it. That's all it is, right? It does mean, uh, that the, the person who gathered the most points, uh, last week, of course, was Ruben. It was you. So you get to pick two fixtures for us. And we can keep it simple and pick them from the Premier League, the upcoming fixtures. We've got midweek this week, aren't we? We've got midweek this week, have we? Yeah. Okay, fine. Well, we should, we probably should, or we could pick one of those. Why don't we pick one from the midweek? And then they pick up at the weekend. And then it's epic. Oh, yeah, it's pick two from the midweek then. So what, what, who asked, oh, Spurs are playing Palace on Thursday. I think that's got to be one of them if you agree. Okay, but then you pick the other. So Spurs, Palace and Brighton Arsenal. Brighton Arsenal on Wednesday. Okay, so those are the two games. We'll start with Brighton Arsenal and then we'll do Spurs, Alice, right? You also get to pick first name because Ruben, uh, lost last week. So with Brighton Arsenal, what do you think the score will be? One, one, one. You can't pick that unfortunately because the one, one bot claims that. Oh, okay, every week. That's because it's the best score to pick it mathematically in this game. All right, I will go for, but I like the idea that you think Arsenal aren't going to come through that with all points. I'll go for two, two then. Two, two. Okay, there we go. Right, and then the next one Spurs, Palace. Uh, I think one Nile Palace. Yeah, I think that's probably pretty fair. Okay, uh, next up to pick is me. So for Brighton Arsenal, I will say Nile II Arsenal and for Spurs, Palace. I think it might be one, two. Yeah, two, one to Palace. John, uh, you are next to pick. I'll go one, two Arsenal and I will go two, one Spurs. You think Spurs is going to win that game? Yeah, okay, there we go. How about that? Next up is Kaya, you're playing as Kaya said. I'll go three, one Arsenal. Three, one Arsenal and three, one Palace. Okay, well, how about that? And then Steve, the fight, what a weird mental pick that is. Just because it's an S. There's some characters, you know. Sure. Oh, good. So Brighton Arsenal, we've had two Nile Arsenal, we've had two, one Arsenal, one Arsenal, we've had two Nile Arsenal. Don't you mean that Arsenal? The Arsenal, Brighton and the Hove Albion against the Arsenal. Man, the only, okay, three, two, two, the Arsenal. Three, two, three, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two, two John McKenzie, thanks and Steve Hanky was also here. Oh, thank you. We'll be back on Wednesday or Thursday, Thursday, Thursday with JJ and with Ruben and Jack Pitbrook. Oh, and Jack Pitbrook. Join us then!
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