🎙️ Football Daily (BBC Radio 5 Live) •September 14, 2026 •⏱️ 54 min

MNC: VAR controversy in the Manchester derby & Rangers dominate Old Firm

🎧 Listen to Original Episode →

1. Executive Overview: Core Theses & Key Revelations

The latest edition of BBC Radio 5 Live’s Football Daily served as a watershed analytical debrief, exposing structural fractures at both the highest tier of English officiating and within the tactical frameworks of top-flight managers. Hosted by Mark Chapman alongside football correspondent Dale Johnson, chief soccer writer Rory Smith, former Premier League striker Chris Sutton, and former Rangers midfielder Scott Arfield, the discussion bypassed superficial match recaps to conduct an autopsy on officiating protocols and tactical stagnation across the English Premier League and the Scottish Premiership.

Central to the episode was the catastrophic breakdown in Video Assistant Referee (VAR) procedure during the Manchester derby. What was initial public discourse framed as an isolated lapse in judgment was dissectible under forensic scrutiny as a fundamental procedural breakdown. As Dale Johnson detailed, VAR Matt Donner and his assistant failed entirely to evaluate Enzo Fernandez’s subjective offside position while jumping for the ball prior to Erling Haaland’s decisive action. This oversight was not merely an eye-test error; it represented a systemic breakdown where Stockley Park operators became trapped in checklist routines, failing to observe the most prominent attacking infraction in the penalty area.

However, the broadcast’s most compelling theoretical contribution emerged from Rory Smith’s counter-thesis: labelling the incident not as an isolated human blunder, but as the inevitable byproduct of regulatory over-engineering. Smith argued that the International Football Association Board (IFAB) and PGMOL have transformed football officiating into an over-legislated labyrinth. By forcing video officials to navigate endless conditional parameters—illustrated by ridiculous distinction surveys regarding hair-pulling "yanking motions" versus affection-based contact—the sport has overburdened its referees with procedural hoops, causing decision-making paralysis in high-stakes environments.

Beyond officiating mechanics, the panel delivered incisive tactical diagnoses of two legacy clubs navigating structural friction:

  • Manchester United’s Tactical Inertia: Rory Smith and Chris Sutton highlighted United’s alarming inability to capitalize on numerical advantages. United's performance against a ten-man Manchester City was characterized as flat, ponderous, and lacking in vertical urgency. Sutton specifically questioned Michael Carrick’s tactical selections, pointing to the persistent benching of marquee center-forward Benjamin Sesko as evidence of a deep disconnect between club recruitment strategy and managerial execution.
  • Enzo Maresca’s Understated Supremacy: In stark contrast to United's volatility, Rory Smith underscored Enzo Maresca’s flawless initiation at Manchester City. Tasked with the near-impossible assignment of replacing Pep Guardiola—a figure who redefined the tactical parameters of English football—Maresca has quietly led City to an unbroken winning record, combining structural discipline with pragmatic squad rotation.
  • Derek McInnes’s Old Firm Masterclass: Transitioning north of the border, Scott Arfield provided an insider’s breakdown of Rangers’ comprehensive domination of Celtic in the League Cup. Arfield detailed how McInnes executed a masterstroke by deploying James Penrice in a targeted central man-marking role to completely neutralize Celtic’s primary midfield catalyst. This tactical victory exposed Celtic’s reliance on flat-track domestic dominance, laying bare their deadline-day recruitment failures and physical deficiencies in central midfield.

Ultimately, the episode established that modern football is suffering from twin crises: an officiating apparatus suffocating under its own regulatory weight, and legacy institutions struggling to reconcile squad assembly with coherent tactical execution.

2. Context & Background: The Landscape Leading to This Conversation

To fully comprehend the weight of the panel’s conclusions, one must examine the macroeconomic and regulatory environment surrounding English and Scottish football during this juncture. The Premier League is currently eight seasons into the VAR era—a period initially promised as a technological panacea that would eliminate "clear and obvious" errors while preserving the organic cadence of the match. Instead, as Mark Chapman noted with staggering clarity, eight years of VAR implementation have yielded unprecedented rule volatility: the handball law has been rewritten twice, while offside interpretations have undergone four distinct revisions in eight seasons.

This constant rule churn has created a state of cognitive fatigue among players, coaches, officials, and supporters alike. Historically, football derived its global resonance from the universality and simplicity of its laws. A goal scored or disallowed was understood through common intuitive consensus. In the contemporary era, however, television networks must routinely display multi-page graphic breakdowns to explain why an offside line was drawn from a defender’s sleeve seam or why a subjective interference clause was omitted. The game has moved from an intuitive sporting contest to a semi-judicial compliance audit.

Simultaneously, the managerial landscape in Manchester presents two contrasting paradigms of institutional planning:

At Old Trafford, Manchester United continue to grapple with the structural hangover of a post-Ferguson identity crisis. Despite heavy capital investment in young talent such as Benjamin Sesko, managerial leadership under Michael Carrick appears hesitant to commit to a defined attacking profile. When presented with favorable tactical game-states—such as playing against ten men in a derby—United's passing structures revert to slow, U-shaped perimeter circulation, exposing a lack of automated patterns and transitional edge.

Conversely, the Etihad Stadium has witnessed one of the most remarkable managerial handoffs in modern sports history. Replacing Pep Guardiola was widely regarded as an impossible task—an assignment destined to crush whoever inherited the bench. Yet Enzo Maresca, leveraging his prior knowledge of City’s operational ethos and refining positional play principles with subtle defensive solidity, has maintained an immaculate winning record. Maresca’s quiet success highlights the value of structural alignment between sporting directors and technical staff.

In Scotland, the Old Firm rivalry is undergoing its own structural evolution. Celtic, long accustomed to domestic dominance under Martin O'Neill, entered the weekend reeling from a humiliating 4-0 Champions League defeat. The club’s recruitment model—traditionally lauded for low-risk talent trading—showed severe fractures during the recent deadline-day window. Panic signings of injured full-backs and an inability to replace the physical engine of Arne Engels left the squad ill-equipped for high-intensity physical battles. Meanwhile, Derek McInnes’s Rangers capitalized on Celtic’s European hangover and squad imbalance, executing a tactical game-plan that reasserted Rangers' domestic ambition while raising questions about the cultural and atmospheric changes surrounding modern derby matches.

3. Deep-Dive Thematic Breakdown

3.1 Systemic Protocol Breakdown: The Manchester Derby VAR Anomaly and Regulatory Creep

The forensic examination of the Manchester derby VAR breakdown offered a clear look into the operational dysfunction at Stockley Park. Dale Johnson provided a precise accounting of what occurred during Erling Haaland’s controversial goal. When the video team reviewed the sequence, VAR Matt Donner (a former assistant referee who retrained as a main referee) and the Assistant VAR (a current Premier League assistant referee) focused exclusively on checking whether Haaland was positioned beyond the last defender.

In their hyper-fixation on establishing a point-in-time line for Haaland, both officials completely overlooked Enzo Fernandez, who was standing three yards offside directly in front of the goalkeeper and jumping to header the ball. Fernandez’s action constituted a textbook subjective offside offense under Law 11 (interfering with an opponent by making an obvious action which clearly impacts the ability of an opponent to play the ball). Because the VAR room failed to identify Fernandez’s position as a potential offense, they never initiated a review, nor did they instruct on-field referee Michael Oliver to inspect the pitchside monitor.

This failure highlights a deep structural vulnerability in PGMOL’s operational model. Despite having two trained assistant referees in the VAR booth whose primary career expertise centers on identifying offside infractions, neither individual raised a query regarding Fernandez. As Dale Johnson emphasized, this was a catastrophic human error, echoing the infamous 2023 Arsenal vs. Brentford incident where VAR Lee Mason became so consumed with checking multiple complex phase elements that he completely forgot to draw lines for Christian Norgaard’s offside positioning prior to Ivan Toney’s equalizer.

However, Rory Smith’s intervention elevated the debate from operational negligence to institutional design flaws. Smith argued that blaming individual officials ignores the systemic environment created by IFAB and PGMOL. Officiating protocols have become so hyper-legislated that referees are forced to process an overwhelming checklist of micro-rules within seconds. Smith cited the absurd evolution of hair-pulling regulations: while hair-pulling previously warranted an unambiguous straight red card, feedback surveys conducted with Premier League clubs led to a revised interpretation. Officials must now determine whether the action contained a violent "yanking motion" versus a non-violent contact. Such over-complications force officials to act like forensic investigators rather than intuitive custodians of the game, resulting in decision paralysis during high-stakes moments.

Furthermore, the dynamic between on-field referees and Stockley Park has created an atmosphere of abdication. On-field referee Michael Oliver stood for minutes in the center circle, fending off irate players while passively waiting for an earpiece prompt. Rather than taking the initiative to walk to the pitchside monitor to inspect a high-impact sequence, elite referees have become dependent on Stockley Park’s permission architecture, creating an environment where responsibility is diffused and mistakes are magnified.

3.2 Manchester United's Tactical Inertia: Ten-Man Dilemmas and the Benjamin Sesko Enigma

Shifting from officiating mechanics to on-field execution, the panel conducted a scathing analysis of Manchester United’s performance in the Manchester derby. Playing against a ten-man opponent for a substantial portion of the match, United failed to demonstrate the tactical variance or technical speed required to dismantle a compact defensive block. Rory Smith highlighted that United’s possession play was extraordinarily flat, slow, and ponderous, identifying a chronic tactical flaw: Manchester United consistently struggle when granted territorial dominance against ten men.

From a tactical perspective, United’s positional structure against City’s compact low block lacked width, interior movement, and vertical penetration. Ball circulation moved predictably from center-back to full-back along the perimeter, allowing City’s ten men to slide across their defensive lines without suffering structural distortion. United failed to execute rapid side-to-side overloads or create third-man runs to penetrate the half-spaces, resulting in a possession profile that generated minimal high-probability scoring chances.

Chris Sutton directed intense criticism toward Michael Carrick’s squad management and attacking selections, specifically focusing on the treatment of striker Benjamin Sesko. Signed to provide a physical and vertical reference point upfront, Sesko has been relegated to the substitutes' bench four times this season. Sutton questioned the rationale behind acquiring an elite, high-value central striker if the managerial staff refuses to trust him in matches requiring a focal point to break down stubborn defensive lines.

Sutton’s critique underscores a broader structural issue at Old Trafford: the misalignment between transfer recruitment and tactical application. If Carrick prefers a fluid, interchanging front line that drops deep into midfield, selecting or benching a natural box-occupying striker like Sesko signals a lack of unified sporting vision. By failing to deploy Sesko when City dropped deep into their penalty box, United surrendered the height, aerial threat, and central occupation necessary to capitalize on their numerical superiority.

3.3 The Quiet Revolution: Enzo Maresca's Methodical Supremacy at Manchester City

In contrast to the operational turbulence at Old Trafford, the panel examined the remarkable early tenure of Enzo Maresca at Manchester City. When Pep Guardiola announced his departure, the football consensus held that replacing the legendary manager was a poisoned chalice. Guardiola had not only delivered unmatched silver trophies but had fundamentally restructured the tactical lexicon of English football through positional play, inverted full-backs, and rest-defense structures.

Rory Smith observed that Maresca has accomplished what few thought possible: navigating the immediate post-Guardiola era without stepping wrong. In an understated, highly disciplined fashion, Maresca has guided Manchester City to victory in every single match of his tenure. Rather than seeking to dismantle Guardiola’s established mechanics to impose an overt personal brand, Maresca has shown tactical wisdom by preserving City’s core positional structures while making subtle, high-efficiency adjustments.

Maresca’s approach centers on methodical control and defensive stability. By refining City’s rest-defense positioning, Maresca has minimized the team’s vulnerability to vertical counter-attacks—an area that occasionally exposed City during Guardiola’s final transition years. Furthermore, Maresca’s calm, unruffled demeanor in press conferences and touchline management has insulated the squad from external media sensationalism. City’s ability to remain victorious while operating under a new tactical regime demonstrates the strength of their organizational infrastructure and Maresca’s elite game-management capabilities.

3.4 Tactical Supremacy in the Old Firm: Derek McInnes's Blueprint and Celtic's Midfield Collapse

The discussion then turned to Scottish football, where Scott Arfield and Chris Sutton provided an authoritative breakdown of Rangers’ resounding victory over Celtic in the League Cup. Scott Arfield, drawing from extensive firsthand experience in Old Firm derbies, described Rangers’ performance as "by far the superior team from minute one to the last minute," framing it as one of the most comfortable derby victories seen in recent memory.

The tactical catalyst behind Rangers’ dominance was Derek McInnes’s strategic preparation. McInnes identified Celtic’s central midfield pivot—referred to by the panel as the team's sole gold-standard creator—as Celtic's single point of failure. McInnes deployed James Penrice out of his natural position into a targeted, high-intensity man-marking role directly onto Celtic’s central playmaker. Penrice executed this assignment with ruthless discipline, denying Celtic’s pivot time, space, or forward passing lanes.

Deprived of central progression, Celtic’s tactical build-up collapsed entirely. Scott Arfield noted that Celtic’s midfield lacked the mobility, physical power, and technical composure to bypass Penrice’s press. Veteran midfielder Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain, while possessing historical pedigree, demonstrated clear physical limitations, failing to cover ground or provide dynamic box-to-box runs. Consequently, Celtic were forced into predictable wide channels where Rangers’ aggressive full-backs easily contained their attacks.

Chris Sutton launched an uncompromising critique of Celtic’s institutional decision-making and squad construction under Martin O'Neill. Sutton characterized Celtic as "flat-track bullies" who routinely dismantle inferior domestic opponents but suffer catastrophic system failure when confronted by organized, physically assertive teams. Sutton traced this vulnerability directly to Celtic’s deadline-day transfer strategy, which he described as outright panic buying. The club brought in six late additions, including an injured left-back incapable of playing 90 minutes as a replacement for Kieran Tierney, while completely failing to replace the physical engine and box-to-box profile of Arne Engels.

3.5 The Atmospheric & Cultural Erosion of the Old Firm

The analysis concluded with a poignant reflection on the evolving cultural and atmospheric identity of the Old Firm derby. Mark Chapman prompted Scott Arfield to address whether the fixture still retains its legendary aura given the ongoing ticket disputes that have virtually eliminated away fan allocations at both Ibrox and Celtic Park.

Arfield’s response was unreservedly honest: "For me personally, no, it doesn't." Arfield recalled growing up watching and playing in Old Firm matches defined by a balanced stadium color split, where 7,000 visiting supporters created a cauldron of noise and intense pressure. The reduction of away allocations to a meager 700 fans—or their complete exclusion—has sanitized the atmosphere, turning what was once a fierce cultural spectacle into a sterile home-dominated environment.

To contextualize the volatile nature of derby matches in eras past, Mark Chapman revisited a match report from 2004, detailing an infamous encounter where Chris Sutton played in central midfield for Celtic against Rangers. Following Alan Thompson’s early red card, manager Neil Lennon pushed Sutton forward to bolster the attack, only for Sutton to receive two yellow cards within 11 minutes—the second for a reckless handball off a Marvin Andrews header back to goalkeeper Stefan Klos. Sutton accepted the nostalgic ribbing, acknowledging that while modern derbies feature superior video technology, they often lack the raw, unscripted intensity of previous decades.

4. Speaker Perspectives & Analytical Contrast

The panel's strength stemmed from the distinct professional backgrounds of its contributors, creating an engaging dialogue where procedural analysis met player experience and journalistic investigation. The table below outlines the core perspectives and strategic arguments advanced by each contributor:

Speaker Professional Role Primary Strategic Thesis Analytical Tone & Methodology
Mark Chapman Lead Broadcaster / Host VAR rule inflation (6 rule changes in 8 years) has alienated match-going fans and created broadcast confusion. Incisive, audience-centric, structurally probing.
Dale Johnson ESPN Football Correspondent The derby error was a catastrophic procedural failure where VAR operators omitted checking subjective offside parameters. Forensic, rule-book precise, evidence-based.
Rory Smith Chief Soccer Correspondent Officiating errors stem from systemic over-engineering; Man Utd suffer from ten-man possession inertia; Maresca excels at City. Macro-tactical, structural, institutionally critical.
Chris Sutton Former Striker & Analyst Man Utd's benching of Sesko is illogical; Celtic's deadline-day transfer recruitment was panic-driven negligence. Combative, player-centric, direct, unvarnished.
Scott Arfield Former Rangers Midfielder Derek McInnes won the derby via Penrice's man-marking masterstroke; away fan bans dilute Old Firm identity. Pitch-level tactical, empathetic, operational insider.

A central point of analytical friction emerged between Dale Johnson and Rory Smith regarding the diagnosis of the Manchester derby VAR breakdown. Johnson focused heavily on the mechanics of the mistake, detailing how Matt Donner and his AVR assistant failed to follow established checking protocols. For Johnson, the breakdown was an operational failure that could be rectified through better communication discipline and rigorous adherence to video review checklists in the Stockley Park booth.

Conversely, Rory Smith rejected Johnson’s framing of isolated human error, insisting that the fault lay within PGMOL’s over-engineered framework. Smith argued that when officials are forced to memorize and execute multi-layered conditional clauses—such as evaluating hair-pulling yanking motions or complex handball proximity metrics—the system itself becomes the primary driver of error. By trying to eliminate all ambiguity, IFAB has created a framework where officials miss glaringly obvious incidents because they are distracted by compliance procedures.

Another compelling contrast arose between Chris Sutton and Scott Arfield during the Old Firm debrief. Sutton, speaking from a Celtic-aligned perspective, focused his critique on top-down governance, berating Celtic’s sporting director and board for failing to support Martin O'Neill with robust recruitment. Sutton viewed Celtic’s derby collapse as an inevitable consequence of board-level complacency and deadline-day panic. Arfield, analyzing the match through a tactical lens, credited Derek McInnes’s micro-adjustments, explaining how Rangers systematically targeted Celtic’s central midfield vulnerabilities through physical dominance and tactical discipline.

5. Strategic & Industry Implications

The insights generated throughout this Football Daily episode extend far beyond a single weekend of football, signaling broad structural trends that impact broadcasting, officiating governance, and squad assembly economics across European sports enterprise.

5.1 The Broadcasting and Fan Engagement Crisis

The continued over-complication of football laws represents a growing risk for global broadcasters and match-going supporters. As Mark Chapman highlighted, when explaining a routine offside or handball decision requires television networks to display multi-page graphic slide-decks during live broadcasts, the viewing experience becomes compromised. Football’s global commercial appeal has historically rested on its flow and simplicity. If officiating breaks down into protracted video reviews and legalistic debates, fan engagement among younger demographics risks erosion. Broadcasters are increasingly forced to dedicate post-match programming to refereeing tutorials rather than tactical analysis, degrading the overall entertainment product.

5.2 PGMOL and IFAB Governance Reform

The failure in the Manchester derby, combined with Rory Smith’s critique of regulatory bloat, forces PGMOL and IFAB to confront a strategic crossroads. Continuing to add conditional layers to the rulebook in response to club surveys has proven counterproductive. PGMOL must consider a radical simplification of its VAR protocols:

  • Protocol Simplification: Strip back multi-layered conditional checklists in favor of clear guidelines that prioritize rapid intervention on major missed infractions.
  • Refocusing VAR Operator Roles: Re-evaluate how assistant referees are deployed in the VAR booth to ensure subjective offside interference is identified immediately without waiting for automated line-drawing tools.
  • Empowering On-Field Authority: Encourage on-field referees to take ownership of subjective decisions by utilizing the pitchside monitor proactively rather than standing passively in the center circle awaiting instructions from Stockley Park.

5.3 The Economics of Squad Assembly and Managerial Succession

The tactical debriefs of Manchester United, Manchester City, and Celtic illustrate critical lessons in sports leadership and squad assembly economics:

Managerial Succession Models: Manchester City’s seamless transition from Pep Guardiola to Enzo Maresca demonstrates the importance of structural continuity. By hiring a manager aligned with the club's established tactical philosophy and providing a stable squad infrastructure, City avoided the destabilizing transitional periods that have plagued rivals like Manchester United.

Recruitment Alignment: Manchester United’s underutilization of Benjamin Sesko and Celtic’s deadline-day transfer missteps highlight the danger of squad assembly disconnected from tactical execution. Capital expenditure on marquee talent is rendered inefficient if the coaching staff lacks a clear plan to integrate those assets into their core tactical framework. Celtic’s reliance on late panic acquisitions rather than proactive squad rebuilding directly impaired their domestic competitiveness and European viability.

6. Looking Ahead: Unresolved Questions & Next Milestones

As the football calendar progresses into the heart of the domestic and European campaigns, several key metrics and milestones will determine whether the structural issues identified during this broadcast are addressed or exacerbated:

6.1 PGMOL Audio Releases and Officiating Transparency

The immediate focal point following the Manchester derby breakdown will be PGMOL’s scheduled release of the VAR audio recordings. Analysts and supporters will scrutinize the exact dialogue between VAR Matt Donner, his AVR, the technical replay operator, and referee Michael Oliver. The primary question remains: did the VAR room actively discuss Enzo Fernandez’s offside position and dismiss it, or was the infraction omitted entirely from their checklist review? The outcome of this release will heavily influence upcoming debates regarding PGMOL transparency and VAR operational reform.

6.2 Manchester United’s Tactical Integration of Benjamin Sesko

For Manchester United and Michael Carrick, the upcoming fixture block represents a pivotal test of tactical adaptability. With media pressure mounting regarding Benjamin Sesko’s limited starting opportunities, Carrick must decide whether to adapt his build-up play to accommodate a natural focal-point striker or continue relying on a fluid, non-penetrative front line. United’s performance metrics against low-block defenses will serve as a primary indicator of whether Carrick can solve the team's ten-man possession stagnation.

6.3 The Old Firm Rematch and Celtic’s Fixture Bottleneck

In Scotland, the immediate calendar presents a daunting challenge for Martin O'Neill and Celtic. With a midweek Europa League fixture followed immediately by a League Cup rematch against Derek McInnes’s Rangers, Celtic have minimal time to rectify their midfield deficiencies. Key indicators to monitor include:

  • Midfield Reconfiguration: Will O'Neill adjust his central midfield shape to protect against Rangers’ high-intensity pressing, potentially introducing fresher options like Oliver Sorensen?
  • Striker Integration: How will O'Neill manage the tactical dilemma between starting marquee signing Casper Hoof versus repositioning Camilo Duran back to his primary central striker role?
  • Rangers' Momentum: Can Derek McInnes maintain Rangers' physical and tactical edge to secure back-to-back derby triumphs, establishing a new period of domestic dominance?

In conclusion, the Football Daily debrief provided a masterclass in modern sports analysis. By connecting on-field tactical details with macro-level governance and officiating mechanics, the panel illuminated the challenges facing contemporary football. Whether through simplifying VAR laws or aligning recruitment with managerial strategy, the sport’s key stakeholders must confront these systemic issues to preserve the integrity, fluidity, and passion of the global game.

💬 Key Quotes & Speaker Breakdown

VAR controversy in Manchester derby

"It seems that when they looked at Enzo Fernandez, they just haven't taken into account that he was offside, and they weren't factoring in a potential subjective offside offense by him, jumping to head the ball. It's just an absolutely massive human error that should never have happened."

— Dale Johnson

Manchester United performance

"If you're a Manchester United fan and you watch your team play against 10 men in a derby game and it is as flat, slow, and ponderous as Manchester United were, that is the major concern. They've got a problem when the opposition get reduced to 10 men."

— Rory Smith

VAR and refereeing laws

"I would quibble slightly with the idea that this is to do with human error. I think there is a human mistake in it, but I think it is a systemic error. They have made everything so complicated that the number of hoops they have to jump through is getting ridiculous."

— Rory Smith

"We've had eight seasons of VAR, and in that time the handball law has changed twice. Laws relating to offside have changed four times in eight years. It's nonsense."

— Mark Chapman

VAR and refereeing decisions

"I think it was a red card on Foden, but I also think it was a red card on Fernandez because his offense was as bad as Foden's. Why doesn't VAR step in and go, 'Michael, you've probably got that wrong'?"

— Chris Sutton

Enzo Mareska's start at Man City

"Mareska has not put a foot wrong. It is an impossible job replacing not just the best coach in City history, but a towering figure who redefined English football. In quite an understated way, Mareska's won every single game."

— Rory Smith

Rangers vs Celtic (Old Firm)

"It's probably as easy a game against Celtic I've seen in a long, long time. Rangers were by far the superior team. It was from minute one to the last minute."

— Scott Arfield

Manchester United tactics

"I think Carrick just isn't having Sesko. He's come off the bench four times this season. If Carrick wanted him, why not let him bring in players he wants? Sesko is not the answer as a centre-forward, but I just didn't get it yesterday."

— Chris Sutton

Celtic FC performance

"I've got great concerns about Celtic. Their midfield is talented, but it's lightweight. They can't run. They don't have the legs. They got outpowered and Rangers were far more robust."

— Chris Sutton

"Celtic have been flat-track bullies this season. They've beaten a lot of teams you'd expect them to beat, and yet in the big tests, they've not just come up short, they've come up well short."

— Chris Sutton
📜 View Full Episode Verbatim Transcript 57,407 characters
This BBC Podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Influences and content creators have been making headlines at the US Open, but how important are they to tennis? Find out by searching for more than a school wherever you get your BBC podcasts. Get more with BBC Podcasts wherever you listen. Be the first to listen to your favourite shows, like Evil Genius, Good Bad Billionaire and your Dead To Me, with a subscription to BBC Podcasts Premium on Apple Podcasts. You can also enjoy a range of our podcasts ad-free with an Amazon Music subscription. If you've been to Hull this weekend, Rory, every week, you seem to be at Hull? No, I decided to chase the goalless draws elsewhere this weekend, chap, as though it's one field. I've now not seen the last goal I saw live in a stadium was Nobel Mendy in the 30 second minute of the first day of the season. I think I should stop going to football matches, I'm spoiling it. And you've been to a game every weekend? No, it's to be fair, I skipped one weekend, so that's two games in a two-no-no draws in a row. Right, okay. What are you going to this weekend, that of interest? I'm waiting to see who I want to curse. All right, speaking of which, we have had a very mixed record when it comes to managers joining us on the show and then how they go afterwards. So I'll apologise to Swansea fans now. Your manager will join us before 8 o'clock, Vito Matos will be with us around 10 to 9. Before then, there's a lot to get into. The bottom three, Fulham, Villa and Coventry. We'll look at the old firm from yesterday and range as thumping win in the league. Cup will talk lead to an action this evening against Newcastle and we'll talk Manchester Derby. As well, let's get all the VAR golf out of the way. First of all, shall we? Monday night clubs, why can't we just play football correspondent Dale Johnson? Is with us. Well, let's try and do this as tightly as possible so that we can then get on to the football. But the important thing here, in all of this and what pro-ref, formally PGO MoL have said, it's not that whether the goal should be stood or not, it's that they've got their process wrong. Yes? Basically, yes. Well, I mean, from what we can tell so far, and we'll probably find out more tomorrow when much official mics are up. I like to post on TV, so I'm sure we'll get played out. But what it seems is that when they've looked at Ender Fernandez, they just haven't taken into account that he was offside, and they weren't factoring in a potential subjective offside offense by him, jumping to head the ball, which was obviously one of the clearest offside offences you likely to see. So it's just an absolutely massive human error that should never have, obviously, never have happened. And it's just quite remarkable to understand how it has happened. Because if they'd decided or spotted it, or decided to look at the Fernandez thing more, they would have sent Michael Oliver to the screen. Yeah, and it would then be on him to decide whether he was interfering with play. Exactly, yes. So they've passed Erling Hall and has been on side, but they haven't actually got to the point where they've realised that Ender Fernandez has committed an offside offense. So it's really remarkable that there's been no intervention. I apologize if you can't answer this question, because I haven't asked you whether you know it in advance. But you know, when we saw the World Cup, and there are about 17 people stood in a box, all gurning at the camera for VR as part of the introduction to the officiating team, how many are in the VR box at Stockley Park? So you've got the VR and the AVR, the Assistant VR. Now, what's most remarkable about this situation is, you've got Matt Donner, who was the VR, used to be a lineman, and then he retrained, he started again to become a referee, and then obviously you've got the Assistant VR, who is also a Premier League lineman. So you've got two people who work as Assistant referees who should be able to identify when a player is committing a subjective offside offense. When we get the audio, do we hear the Assistant VR? Yes, we hear both of them, and the referee, and the assistant, so they're there as well. You'll also hear the replay operator for the technical replay operator saying, do you want this replay? Do you want that replay? But yeah, I'm sure we'll hear that tomorrow, and we'll see exactly where it seems that they've gone wrong, but what it seems so far, it just seems to be an absolutely catastrophic human error. Because do you not think, Shane, all of that, perhaps the most supposed thing is that nobody went, should we look at him? It's that obvious as it feels like it just literally didn't seem in the middle of the goal to three yards offside, or whatever it was. My next thing is, Michael Alders, obviously, the referee in charge, and he's the guy who has to make the decision, but obviously he trusts the VA or, but you know, Michael's standing around for, that seems an eternally waiting for this VA or thing to come in. Surely he can take a little jog over himself to the screen, and just go, that's what about him? You know, I mean, every goal, if it's clear, and it's black and white, you go, okay, but there might be a bit of a holland, maybe just come and have a look, because what Michael does? He stands there, looks, he's watching, and fends off their captain, you know, whatever Fernandez or whoever else, he's fending off players. He's just standing there, waiting. I think so. Thanks, Will and he's someone's way, can he join in the conversation at the monitor? I think Harland, who is quite amusing to watch, Rory, in the whole of that process. I actually think Harland mows at one point. It's not me, it might be Enzo. I mean, goodness. I think he does. Well, quite possibly, when he said in the interview after the game yesterday, that he knew pretty quickly that he wasn't offside, and I think he said he took it personally, that Michael Oliver thought he might have been offside, just early in Harland, and I'd never really noticed this. I'm sure it's true. Early in Harland sort of self-identifies as someone who's never offside. So he seemed to imply that he was pretty sure he was okay. But yeah, the fact that nobody thought, should we look at the fellow in the light blue shirt in the middle of the box? But like, one foot person, or he can get it wrong, like, and then, with Delia, send us an assistant. Yeah, I've had this before. There's an assistant human being in there as well. Do you know what I mean? We had this a few years ago as well, and the game between Arsenal and Brentford, where, and the problem was, is the VA, at the time, was Lee Mason, and he was, there was so much going on with different things, needed to be checked, but it's part of it, that he didn't actually check the player that was offside, who was Christian Norgard, who created a goal for Ivan Turney. So that was a goal that stood, which should have been ruled out. And that was a player who actually played the ball, but the VA got so consumed with other factors that he didn't look at what he needed to be looked at. So it's just a, while we're dealing with human beings, looking at these things, unfortunately, you can't rule them out. I would, I'd quibble slightly with the idea that this is to do with human error. I think there is a human mistake in it, but I think it's a systemic error. And it's watching Sky in particular, and I know that much that they did the same, put up the graphic for the actual rules, three times to try and explain what was during the game, and then twice afterwards. And that, I would agree with you, Rory, was going to be my point there, which is every time we do a game on Sky, or they do it on the highlights, then you end up with either an offside law, or a handball law, more often than not, they are the two. And they probably don't stick to one page of a graphic now. I mean, you probably have to go to a second page, and sometimes maybe even a third page. And so the systemic part is, they have made everything so complicated as we have discussed many times, that now that the number of hoops they probably have to jump through within that box before they make a decision, is getting ridiculous. And the final thing that I'll just throw to you there before you come in is, we've had eight seasons of EAR, and in that time the handball law rule, whatever, has changed twice. Laws relating to offside have changed four times in eight years. I mean, it's nonsense. So what I'd say to start with, is that there may be tweaks to offside, but in general terms, the premise of offside hasn't changed that much. The interfering with an opponent, which happened at the weekend, that was in the laws in 1910. You can go and look under the IFA website, that there's always been there. The problem is that a lot of these laws that get put up on the screen on Sky, they, people didn't need to know these laws. People went to watch a game of football, and a girl was scored, a girl was ruled out, everybody went home, went to the pub, talks about it, they didn't get this lesson in the laws of the game, where it had to be spelled out to them, paragraph by paragraph, to try to make them understand a simple game, which they just want to sit and watch. And that's the issue. These laws have always been really complicated, because you've got to cover eventualities for where things might happen, like what happened on Sunday. But people just don't want to know that. People don't want to get consumed by all these details. They just want to watch a game of football. Yeah, but the best example is... Oh, sorry, gone wrong. The best example in Dale will know this. Do you know the hair pulling thing this season? Yeah. So hair pulling has to be an actual pull. Hair pulling last season was a straight red. And you can think that was harsh, and a little bit kind of excessive, and you can think that football does occasionally have a weird desire to police things that don't actually do any physical harm, at the same time as allowing stuff that does do actual physical harm to go a little bit less, you know, to be punished a bit more lightly. But hair pulling to me anyway, and this is personal, feels unsportsman-like at the very best. And so they had this rule last season, and it was a straight red. And then they went around the clubs at the end of last season, started this season and said, what do you think of all these rules? You know, you wouldn't have to have some feedback. And it turned out that a lot of the plays thought it's a bit harsh, didn't send off a pull in someone's hair. So now they've come up with a rule whereby if there is a yanking motion, so at some point, chap, as you don't have to sit on a stri-so for somewhere and say, was there a yanking motion on television, which I'm sure is the fulfillment of all of your career ambitions? Well, I mean, that's a minefield in all sorts and different ways to be honest with you, but what? So you don't have to say that, because they have complicated it. So now if it's a yanking motion, it's a straight red. If it's just a sort of gentle caress, like an affectionate rub of the head, it's either where it's nothing. But this is where the worst thing the Premier League is that, it's not a case of pro-ref, as I've known now, going out and coming up with their own interpretations, it's always by survey from the clubs, the coaches, the managers. But it still has the effect of massively confusing. Absolutely, yeah. And that's what I agree with Chapters. I think with, you're doubly quite right, and I would not claim to know the kind of history of it as well as you do, but they have taken rules that weren't necessarily quite complicated to strike that balance between consistency and common sense, and they have made them impossible to understand. To the point where I actually think, a lot of the time, they're not entirely sure which bit they're meant to be doing, which is why they're confusing themselves, aren't they? Yeah. They're confusing all of them. Yeah, that is right. I mean, the stuff you've said, Mark, about the tweaks over the years, I mean, it is really confusing. As an ex-player trying to keep up with everything, and all the little tweaks from season to season, I mean, it's crazy. I do have sympathy for the guys who made the other day, because they were bad errors. They were the safety net, and they just didn't make the right call, but they lost focus in a minute. But we all make mistakes. We do, it's just that was a particularly bad one. I just, you know, what happens now is, and it can be in this studio, Dale, it can be in the sky, it can be in the studio, it can be something happens in the game, and then somebody goes, what do you think that was, Humble, and then somebody else goes, well, I think it is, but then I'm not 100% sure, and then everybody scurries off and gets the whole law, and then five times out of six, you're still non-the-wise. Humble's, without a doubt, it's the biggest mess that there is of all the laws from. This was changed in 2014, the process started. It wasn't changed with VR. It was changed because the IFR, the lawmakers, decided that they wanted to define Humble. They wanted to define it properly, because they felt it was never properly defined. What they did, they created this menu of options for reasons to give a penalty. And so that's what we ended up with an absolutely massive spiking penalty is across all of Europe. They changed the Humble law about four or five times for both attacking reasons and for general for penalty reasons. And no one knows where they are. And also, let's not forget, we've now got this bizarre situation, where we have different interpretations in the European leagues, depending on how he has to, they want to penalize it. So you can't get any consistency, and it's impossible to expect people to understand it. You've made a few, can I just say, if Shae's daughter is listening to this evening, your dad has got your sketch pad as his pad. They're watching at home. She doesn't know, but it's good. As his pad to make, he's not. So you know, when the different pundits come in with different methods to make it well, you brought your daughter's sketch pad and a poo bag with you. Where's the skinny cat? That's the poo bag's a different story, I'll think about it. No, but just sorry. Sorry, going back to yesterday on back TV, the Oregon, obviously, the Norbert Talkin' Point was the red card on Foden. And it's the next match, it's the Napoli, I actually think it was a red card on Foden, but what I actually think as well, I think it was a red card on Fernandez because his offense was as bad as Foden. So why doesn't VAR, in my opinion, then step in and go, Michael, you probably got that right because Foden's reacted shipily, I think, and it's not a mad kick out, but the laws of the game, I think, is probably a red card. So Michael, I've ever seen that, but it may be, it might have missed the first kicking of Foden on the back side when he's on the floor. So I don't know why there was no communication between the two of them then. So that had to be the same, didn't it? That was sort of logical. I think you said, on match of the day, Mark, it was a good line, even I laughed, it was a nudge with the foot. What's the difference between a nudge with the foot? How is that different to a kick? Yeah, but that was something. Danny Murphy called Bruno as a nudge with the foot. I'm like, that's a kick, isn't it? Yeah. And that's the whole issue, isn't it, with large parts of VAR, they are. They are so subjective. It's like the clear and obvious thing. One person's clear and obvious will be different to the next person. I mean, a couple of points, finally, and then we'll get on to the football. So I've had a message here from someone involved in football. So is there an issue that the problem isn't that the rules are that complicated? Is that the refs don't know them? I think that's, I don't think that's the case at all. I just think that they are complicated. And you can't expect everyone to fully understand them. I mean, I qualified as a referee a long time ago. I don't do it anymore now. But like, the process you go through to try and understand all the laws and all the different interpretations, the possible outcomes, what might not happen, what might happen, sorry. I think it's unlikely that these professional referees have been doing it now for some of them for 20 to 30 years. Don't know the intricacies of the laws that they're applying. Adam in Tuting, I agree with Rory. It's not human error. Human error is a consequence of a weak system, not a cause of itself. The system, procedures, technology, training, must be fixed, or it will continue to happen. John in Hertfordshire, problem arose because of pundits, fans, players, and managers constantly moaning about refereeing, decisions, VAR, rule changes, and the obsession with ref decisions are all a consequence of the woeful culture that has developed around referees. And now I agree with that. Now we're even more obsessed with referees than we ever were. Yeah. But why are you wearing a set of referees? They've got the big calls right yesterday in Manchester, Derby. We wouldn't even speak up with us tonight. I think it goes back years, though, Shay. But it's actually not as worse in Italy and Spain where, I mean, Italy, they invented an entire machine so they could pick apart refereeing decisions. And there's a lot of Spanish, whatever the Spanish equivalent to the Monday nightclub would be like 95% just about referees. But I think it did create an environment in which we kind of, what's the word? Like chastise them for not being perfect. And now we've introduced a system that's just much, and as I said, this one is not like opposed to the VAR as a concept, but it's just much worse. It is much worse now. I think the problem is, is that people expect VAR to bring perfection to the game, but that was never the intention of VAR to bring perfection. It was supposed to correct certain things. And also, and as you mentioned subjectivity earlier, the fact is half of these decisions, people can just like argue about them. Like Shay said, oh, if they got the decisions right, then no one would be arguing. But the word, people would have disagreed with it and felt somebody should have been sent off or not sent off or other been of the decisions in the game, like for instance, in some of the university's arsenal. The problem is you can't get a consensus. So you're never going to get a situation where people think that VAR is working well. And Rory talks about the survey that they did for the hair pull. I was thinking when I watched Saturday's games, at some point will people start to mention size of shimpads if somebody goes over the ball in a, and I thought this was disaster, it's nothing against Jack Clark. But Jack Clark had like several players now, shimpads that are the size of postage stamps. So if somebody accidentally catches you, beat out a proper shimpad on. They actually had to change the law to make it the player's responsibility to be wearing shimpads because they're getting so much smaller and smaller that like you say, they're pointless. Is that an old man? He could have had cricket pads on and there was still a winner ready to have it. To be honest, it was a terrible tackle on the zazz. I don't know what your argument is. No, I just thought whether the size of shimpads get brought, no? No. Okay, but that will be funny with cricket pads on. Dale, thank you very much. I'm also now thinking on the Spanish Mundino Club who plays Chris's role. El Club de Luna's notchy is what it would be. Who plays to it? Who's the drumpiest ex-spanish player? Pablo Alfaro, the former severe defender, would be quite nasty. He had a trick that would, even VAR would be on the spot. Alfaro's a defender, played for severe for a long time. I think he was a qualified doctor and on the pitch, he was an occasional amateur proctologist. Chris and Shay, if you found out three or four hours after a football match that the referees have been interested, say, you know that role that beat you? He shouldn't have stood. How, sincerely, how would you respond to that as players? Well, I was involved in a famous score that France scored with a Terry Henri-Hamball and I don't think we've got over that yet, so that was 2009 perhaps I think it was. Yeah. Yeah, so I don't know if you feel any injustice in you, suppose I guess these games are big, big in the game and in the big derby, there's lots of stake for both sort of players and managers. However, Dale, thank you very much for coming in. However, as Ray says, Chris, all of that has been the full focus of the media. The more person question is, how Manchester United plays 70 minutes against 10 men at home and couldn't score? Isn't the issue really, and where the discussion should be, not whether that goal should just stood or not, but what is going on with them? Yeah, I think that that's absolutely spot on and of course, you know, the goal happened, as Shay said, I thought that Bruno should have got the same punishment as Phil Foden. Regardless of that, if you're a Manchester United fan and then you watch your team play against sitting in a derby game and it is as flat and as slow and as ponderous as Manchester United were when they had the numerical advantage, that would be the major concern and the start to the season as a whole, we're only four games in, but then you look at a hole at the summer and there's lack of activity in terms of Manchester United bringing players in, you look at Michael Carrick's decision making, I didn't know, I get why he plays Cun you as a centre forward, but as soon as Foden went off, surely there was a case of, you know, Cesco's a different type of forward who occupies centre-halfs, but surely, you know, you'd throw him on, I thought he was late in getting him on, maybe it's just because he doesn't rate him. So there are a lot of things, I think that Michael Carrick needs to take responsibility for, and you know, he's always quite level-headed and calm and I like listening to him talk, doesn't get too high, doesn't get too low, but Manchester United, you know, need to start addressing the situation and need to start performing at a level to really get the season up and running, because you know, that wasn't good enough yesterday. They were talking about, obviously, Manchester United, didn't do many favors, couldn't don't you, tell me, and Manchester United, because then they had the setback and defend low and defensive shape, because Manchester United are very, like, a transitional team with the speed of caution, Buehmo, Rashford and Cunia, but when you've got that numerical advantage, Chappers, you have to do something different. I mean, I think Cunia's not a number nine, is he? He feels like he's playing at a position. I mean, Cesco's the obvious one, I don't know why he's not starting, I know he maybe had an injury priest, whatever, but at the same time he must, he must be able to work him to get him on the pitch, but I don't know, I'll go back to the man's city, yesterday, the performance they had and how they controlled it, it felt that stages were never went down to 10, and that the United had 10, because they just kept it past, they couldn't get the ball off him, and that's a frustration from, from my United fans, there were just, there was no sort of sense of urgency, it felt, and maybe that's because man's city played so well, perhaps I don't know. I think last season, Manchester United, had an issue against teams, which defended deep or low block, whatever you want to call it, and it, you know. Well, also Chris, also Chris, they have an issue against teams when the opposition get reduced to 10 men. So three times in the last 12 months, they've lost when the opposition has gone down to 10 men and gone down to 10 men with a considerable amount of the game left to play. At home to Everton, when Idris had gone, the game was sent off after the fight with Tarkovsky, wasn't it? It's said James is a Michael Kean. Second, it's said James is a part. Jacob Ramsey sent off as half time approach there and then Phil Fade midway through the first half yesterday. They've got a problem when the opposition get reduced to 10. That's one thing. Yeah, you know, absolutely. And I think there's an element of, you know, of Manchester United players just looking to Bruno and for him to create something. There's not a lot from elsewhere, but I also think as a Manchester, as Manchester United fans, the way that they would be feeling about the underwhelming summit, I do think it matters because they did finish the season in a really strongly third place, everybody on a high and then you want to see them sort of go again in forward areas. I think Carrick just isn't having SESCO. That's my view. I think he's come off the bench four times this season. I think he came off the bench a lot of times last season. So if Carrick worked one last season as he did, why not let him bring in players who he wants to bring in? Because SESCO couldn't use not the answer as a centre forward. And we know why couldn't your place as a centre forward? It's to sort of drop in and get little overloads and whatever. But I just didn't get it yesterday. I understand that the tactical element of the game, but you need to score a goal. What? And so you have to have a centre forward on who's going to occupy defenders, you can get crosses in. That's a legitimate way of scoring. But all of a sudden, Carrick didn't throw him on early enough. Hang on, though, Rory, weren't we told that Manchester United were going to fix the attack last summer and then this summer was the summer they fixed them in field? Yeah, in the warm weeks. But what Chris has, they haven't fixed the attack? And then next summer is meant to be the summer they fixed the defence. Yeah, I think it's slightly harsh to accuse United of having an underwhelming summer. I think what they had was the summer that wasn't that wasn't kind of unsensable. And we've we've criticised United for years and years and years for kind of following fads or for thinking short term or for doing things reactively. It feels harsh and a bit hypocritical to then say, well, they didn't get involved in a ridiculously inflated market. They picked players who I think we probably all thought sea lemons was a smart sign in a delay, but they'd tracked for a long, long time. Andres Santos maybe was a bit overpriced, but you can see why they did it. Why did they do it? If you can see why they did it, why did they do it? Well, he's young. I think he can play lots of different positions. He's obviously got talent and you do need you need bodies in midfield to an extent. And I think what 47, 48 million was a lot for a player who's probably a squad option at the moment. But if you haven't got the money to then go and strengthen elsewhere, but you want a left back and maybe another defender and maybe another attacker. Why sign? Why go for Edison and then miss out on Edison? And then why go for Santos if all along you think you're going to get Belieber? Well, I mean, I would guess that in terms of the latter, which is they thought they needed three midfielders rather than just two. The Edison thing is weird. I don't understand kind of what happened to it. I think Edison's actually said he doesn't quite understand why it fell apart before he signed his new contract with Atalanta. There's a suggestion of an injury, but I don't know what the cause of it was. I wonder whether the issue that you know I did have got is that if you don't have an unlimited budget, and we talked last week, I think, about the fact they don't have lots and lots of players to sell, which means it's difficult to spend huge sums of money in the transfer market, given the way prices have gone. You probably do have to cut your cloth a little bit. And yeah, look, they look underpowered. They've clearly got an issue when they're expected to dominate the game. I think they're retored when they have less than 50% possession in a game is much better than they're retored when they have more than 50% possession in a game. And that obviously is exacerbated when you're against the team with 10 men who kind of have an excuse Harlan said that yesterday as well, that they kind of have to sit in a little bit. They have to buy their time, they have to wait for their chance and hope that everyone forgets what the upside rule is. What one of the other points that maybe you'll agree on more about go to Rory, that Danny made last night was a year ago, well, roughly a year ago, Chelsea went to Manchester United and had their goalkeeper sent off inside the first five minutes. And the rescue made two changes very early on in that game that were both defensive. I think it may have been Cole Palmry took off and there was another attacker that he took off. And he'd invited United onto Chelsea that evening, although they very nearly nick something at the end of Chelsea. And their point was actually, Mareska had learned from that experience and very much kept things as it didn't over, not over react, but didn't let things play out after the phone and red card. Until half time before making his change. Yeah, I was at that day, Marlton. I think it was Esther Val, he took off as well. Esther Val and Pedro Netto, they were the two who took off here. Yeah, he, and he went very defensive very quickly. And I wonder whether yesterday he worked out that, look, it's okay to try and just kill the game a little bit, take control of the ball when we can, see if United can break us down. And as you get through the first five, 10 minutes and you see that maybe they aren't cutting through, that they aren't making a huge advantage of being a man-up. Maybe you think, okay, yeah, let's get to half time. I don't know this, but my instinct would be most managers, even as Shay says, you know, when it's the obvious thing to do tactically, probably don't want to take a player off in the first half unless they really have to, because it is, there's an element of kind of, you're risking the player having a bad reaction, I suppose. But I think that the last few weeks have been, have been really impressive from Mareska in a way that has done sort of under the radar. As that is, that is an impossible job replacing not just the kind of the best coach in city history, the best coach in the league, but this kind of towering figure who's redefined English football and kids play out from the back now, it's all but just a pep. And in quite an understated way, Mareska's won every single game. And yeah, Bournemouth wasn't that impressive and comp, she wasn't that impressive, but they went in one in Porto mid-weight. That's another challenge pass, you know, winning after you've been in the Champions League, he has not put a foot wrong, Mareska. And you know, with questioning whether Manchester United have made the right signings and you know, that's a debate to be had. But, so he had the option, yesterday he could have put Rico Lewis on, he could have put Hussainoff on, he could have put O'Reilly on, which you know, moved some end to the other side, he had various options, but that just shows what a, what a smart piece of business bringing, and Gyan who we thought he was all off to Tottenham, but to bring him in and have that trust and always going to work hard defensively. I mean, that looks to be a brilliant piece of business from Manchester City. Would you go along with Rory that he hasn't put a foot wrong yet? No, I would say, yeah, sorry, I would agree with him. Yeah, I think he's done, I mean, it was nice to see him at the end of the game, he could go over to the away fans and you can see the smite on his face because obviously they had the dig in deeper times and there was a togetherness, I think as well. And I've sort of said this before, but Pep Leven, you know, he's, you can never knock what Pep Doni's going to go down as an absolute legend of the football club, but that same voice every single day, you know, the demands and stuff. And maybe they like to fill a phone or even shirt get times last year, maybe didn't see the idea, we Pep, so there's a new voice of freshness within the club. You said that's a good thing, Pep left there. Yeah, if you want to be put, we want some headlines on the show, then I think it was maybe time, 10 years is a long time. And I just think that the demands and you know, I've seen some of the documentary stuff and he, Pep was looking a bit tired and says, I've had enough of this type thing, you know, so I think the freshness of Marisco bringing, and of course he's brought his own staff in as well. So that's all fresh and new for the players and the people around the training room. So I don't think it's a bad thing, Chris, if you want to put me in the spot, yeah. You can understand that, Chris, can't you? I mean, you know, after a while, you get fed up of here in the same voices, especially after a decade, maybe. Maybe more. Maybe more. Yeah, maybe Chris, maybe time for, yeah, maybe time for a cold, yeah, that's cool. Let's judge Manchester City on Friday morning. Oh, sorry, back to City. That's what I would say. Judge and went to the judge. Let's judge City on Friday morning. After not, after not reaching the league cup, is that where you? My goodness. Yes, there we go. Yeah. The big one. That's the big test. What's real good at team in the Premier League? Do you think that's a start of phone, don't you, Chris? Yeah, big fills in charge, wait and see. Big. Don't make too many changes, Enzo. Do the final thing that would say, Pep, Marisco, I don't know if you noticed this worry or not. He seems, and I thought this one, I interviewed him before the Crystal Palace game. He actually seems so much more relaxed than maybe, I don't know, there was a lot going on at Chelsea over the last six months or whatever. But he really, he feels very, yeah, calm and personable and like he's enjoying it. Why are you laughing, Chris? Well, because he's winning and probably the sport scientists aren't badgering in every second. Don't worry about the sport side. I wonder, I mean, that might be a fact, he will probably just find City a more conducive environment than he obviously did Chelsea. The other thing is, if you think about how we're all trying to play it out, Marisco lost his job at Chelsea because he told them he'd been speaking to City, which means that, what, eight, nine months ago, City knew that he was the guy they wanted to replace to our Diola if Diola left. That's a pretty big vote of confidence, which means that he's probably in a place where he feels like he's wanted and valued and it's a place he knows, as obviously he was there as a member of Pep Staff in two different roles for a couple of years. This is the Monday night club with Mark Chapman. On the football daily podcast. Influences and content creators have been making headlines at the US Open, but how important are they to tennis? Find out by searching for more than a school wherever you get your BBC podcasts. Get more with BBC podcasts wherever you listen. 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She had given Chris Sussan Rory Smith and Scott Arfield next as we turn our attention. To the old firm Rangers making it through to the Scottish League Cup semi-finals with a big win over Celtic. Do you feel, Scott, or do we have to wait a little while, whether that is a turning point for Rangers? No, I think it's a great start. It's a great start. There's been a lot of negativity since there at McKinnis was appointed. There was a lot of negativity with the players, but I think they've done a strong way. They're right in there. Now that's five wins at a five in the last five games. So I think that now there's momentum. Everybody knows that football is full of momentum. Everything you can build it in weeks and months and seasons and it can get taken away very, very quickly. So I think they're in a good rich vein of form right now. And it's all about keeping that momentum as much as they can. To beat your rivals very, very convincingly. We'll go a long way to set up the noise up here. I'll just get to the obviously had the nightmare result against Yablon etch in the Europa conference league. Since then, they've won at Pitordry, they've won at Falcourt, they've beaten Motherwell, they've beaten Semiron. All of them only buy a goal, only a goal in it in all of those games. So Mugley victory is in there. I'm puddin'. So Mugley victory is in there. Well, I wasn't asking for that at that moment. I was just giving context to Scott in that. Whilst those wins have been there, whether they've been ugly or not, they've won them. But yes, they was the first day they managed to put daylight between themselves on another side. Yeah, yeah. And it was very convincing. It's probably as easy a game against Celtic. I've seen in a long, long time Celtic came. Heavy, heavy, favourite yesterday. And it just rose to the occasion. It was just a from minute one to the next minute. Rangers by far the superior team. Obviously, no Celtic fans in the stadium. Obviously has a massive effect on the players. And it'll be reciprocated next week, because obviously it goes again next week. And it's a reverse fixture. So I did it a lot to do with it. But as he says, I think the attacking options now that means it's got a little bit more depth. And Kelsey coming in there. A massive, massive price tag. We've been just paying £9 million for a striker. It had to make an impact. It played in Wednesday night. Never really got going. But he's made a lot of people happy with that price tag yesterday, obviously getting his goal. So I think in attacking options, now there'll be progression. Now there's optimism around the full club now. Derek McKinnis has talked about togetherness. He said, I love the togetherness. I need to have a team who cares for each other. Has love for each other when things aren't going well. You sometimes see the true strength. We've had some soul searching and tough times the past few weeks. Can you see it togetherness? I'm not just talking about the team spirit. I'm talking about how they are playing. Can you see things starting to gel before Chris comes in with some disparaging comment or other? I'll be on Lakeham winter. What is this, Scott? I'm going to be on Lakeham. Obviously, if you win games, you're obviously going to be happy. I think there's going to be bigger tests going forward. Starting next week at Celtic Park. I think that's it. That will be the true test. I think it's easy to be, to be fairly optimistic and high-fiving each other in cuddles when you've got 50,000 behind you. So I think that's a fantastic start, as I said, an absolutely amazing performance that they put in. But I think the true test going forward. You're talking about togetherness and a real team spirit. I think that will be really tested. Come to elbow clock next Sunday. Come on, Chris. I agree a lot with what Scott has said. I think that was a hugely significant win for Derek McKinnis because you spoke about the winning run they were on. Rangers. It wasn't pretty beating St Mirren late on full cook. I think it was a lot more fortunate to win, but they did win. And he sort of needed a statement victory. I think there was a lot of talk going into this game, which manager was under the most pressure. But the way that he set his team up, and James Penrise the left back, sort of played it in an inverted role in the middle of the park. Derek's team's over the years. He likes to go man for man. And they ran all over Celtic physically. They were far, far superior. I agree with Scott as well. Let's just wait till after the game on Sunday and see. But I have, I've got great concerns about Celtic. And I've said this from the start of the season. Celtic's midfield is lightweight. Celtic, Celtic's midfield is talented, but it's lightweight. They can't run. They don't have the legs. McGregor's been a brilliant player. He's got Negro in the Swedish international. There was a big debate about him last season. You know, he's got a brilliant instinct for goals, but he can't run. And then they brought in a bow from Germany. And they just got, they just got outpowered in their ranges were far more robust and ran all over them. I've got to say I didn't agree with the Celtic starting lineup. They brought in. Hussein. The Egyptian international played at the World Cup, who I think is a little bit frustrating in terms of his final ball at times. But I haven't seen anybody able to really handle him in terms of his dribbling ability. And he was on the bench. I don't know what the actual reason was him for being on the bench. But I thought that handed ranges are, you know, a massive initiative. And Celtic were never really in the game. And Celtic have big issues, because the two big tests they've had this season away against Laskin in the Champions League, which was a disastrous performance, where guess what? They got ran all over in midfield. And then, you know, you look at, you look at what Martin and Neal said before that game. And I've mentioned him before, honor angles when they sold him to West Ham, which is fine. But they've never replaced that player like for like with profile. And so they don't, they don't have that legs and energy and someone who can cover the ground in midfield. And I always felt when you, when you play against better teams, Scott was an excellent midfielder himself. I occasionally played in midfield. I'm not a game. But you do. But you do. Hello and numbers at day. But that element, you know, it's okay being a good footballer. But Celtic have a midfield who are good at five aside. But they, you know, the game is played on a big pitch. You have to, you have to be able to cover the ground and get about the pitching and compete. And Celtic don't have the midfield made up for their, their signed, they signed two midfielders, I think, on deadline day, who were, who were attacking midfielders by all accounts. So they haven't replaced like for like, it's just, it just feels like Celtic. They just, the way the club is run that they just want to do enough. Just finish ahead of Rangers, finish ahead of parts. And they've got the Europa this week. And when you look at Rangers now, don't have Europe. They're in a pretty good position. This may all change at the weekend. And we may see, you know, Rangers go under at Celtic Park. But I bet there's sort of a leg up to the lift that the Rangers players got from that performance. That, that does feel significant. And it's up to Celtic to respond. He, and sort of following on from that then, Scott. So six players made their old firm debuse for Rangers yesterday. So will that benefit them when they go to Celtic Park? Which will obviously have a very different atmosphere to it. And let's not forget Noah Wayfans there either. So does that has, is it important that they've had that experience already or am I comparing chalk and cheese? No, it's, it's a very strange game. It's the best game I'm up in. It's the best game in World Football. It's the biggest, the deeper questions. And everything that goes with it is just school drastic. Need to be up here to live it. Obviously, Chris has lived it as well. So you need to be up here to understand it. I think the experience is one thing. One is another thing. But I think they're so unique. They are so, so unique. Because whenever you think it's going to be a copy and paste, it can become a completely different game. And I think the experience of the game, the magnitude of the game, you have to, you have to feel it. You have to be there. And really, you understand what the bragging rights for the both sides say. Can I say this? Can I say really stupid question? Does it still feel like a proper old firm without a wife and? For me personally, no, no, it doesn't, it doesn't. We grew up watching these games and the colour they both sides as a proper game. There's obviously the minority. What happened last season, obviously, I've changed this again. When I came back up in 2018, there was only, there wasn't anyone. Then there was 700 supporters allowed in each side of the stadium. So it wasn't, no, I wouldn't say it is a true old firm game. But the repercussions and everything that goes with the magnitude and the demand of the game is obviously still there. And that will never, ever go away. So to live it, to feel it, I think these players will go a long way from to experience it. And get the victory. And get the victory is absolutely huge. It'll be a copy and paste again from Derek McHarris. On Sunday, he'll try his best, he'll obviously mirror it. But Mark Daniel is a very clever manager. I think he'll come up with something a wee bit different. As Chris said, James Penmay is coming in in middle of the pitch. And just man-marking, Negan, who's the only gold flip from midfield for Celtic. And it was an absolute masterstroke. He was my man in the match. I thought he was excellent and a great addition to this team. I think he'll do it again. Because you give need in a 20 yards out. He's going to find the corners of the net. So I thought that was a massive thing. I'll be a copy and paste. But it's such a unique game. And me and Mr Sutton will be sitting next to each other the best. The best seats in the house again watching it. I was just going to ask you, Scott, briefly about Celtic. In a sense, you know, I'm still in, because I'm obviously Celtic background. And of course, I'm still trying to get over the last result in the Champions League. It was just, like, to be four in a lap. I still can't get my head right now. And that Martin mentioned just about a reset button or a wake-up call after the game or whatever exact word was. I mean, is what's the sort of media up there like today? Suppose it's from the Celtic point of view. Is it Harsha? Oh, you can imagine. You can imagine. Yeah. I was listening to a few interviews. Karla McGregor's interview after it was very, very damning. And he said a few things. It was Ranger's defended as a team. And set it up with a teammate individual. So for the captain in common, I think that's just that. I kick up the back side for the magnitude. This week in particular, obviously, they'll start on a Europa League on Thursday and then the huge game again on Sunday. So yeah, everything that you thought could have get written about the Celtic players. It has been written, as you can imagine. Yeah. Yeah. The problem Martin and Neil has is what, you know, what can he change? What can he do? On the face of it, have it going to be truthful about Celtic? This season, they've been flat track bullies. You know, they've beaten a lot of teams in truth. You'd expect them to beat and yet in the, in the big tests, they've not just come up short. They've come up well short. I think that's mainly because of Celtic's midfield area. But then he's got a problem with Camilo Juran. You know, where does he play him? Has got him and Casper who? And he could play two up top. Well, it would he go back to a, a back three, which he did when, when I was there, but then you got question marks over who the wing, wing backs going to be for Celtic. I don't think Martin can go to a four, four, two, because Celtic will just get mulled in the, in the middle of the pitch. But six players came in around deadline day. So that surely gives a lot of difference. It was, it was. You remember you said, what can, what do you mean? Come on. You said you said what can he do? What can he do? What can he do? Just saying, well, isn't that panic on deadline day and bring, bring players in, bring a left back in, who's barely played a game of football, who's injured and can't replace Kear and Tierney who never last 90 minutes. That's great logic. That's really well worked out from, you know, brilliant, brilliant recruitment. I mean, it's just, it's just bonkers. Martin and Neil's on radar. People don't need me to say this. Martin and Neil is on record about, was on record about the need to replace Arnold Engels and, and that profile of player. And they haven't done that. That is, that is, that is taking a risk. Why would you, why would you take such a risk like that? And they'll address it in January. But at this moment in time, the way that ranges one this weekend, and I know it's a different kettle of fish going to Celtic Park, but, you know, I don't know what Martin can, can do really to, to, to change that midfield area. He's just got a hope that they can compete in a more, a more robust, you know, he might bring the boy, um, um, uh, Oliver Sorenson in. Uh, but, but, you know, where does, where does he fit? Who is he going to drop? But, you know, as I said, I think if he starts, they've lost Yang to the Asian Games, who's the Celtic left-winger, who's had a particularly good start at the season. Uh, I think that he, he was badly missed. The guy they replaced him with, connect, he was, you know, didn't have a lot of courage and never ever thought that he could be do Jean Sterling, the, the range is, um, right-sided player. So he was a disappointment. A lot of Celtic fans were surprised he started. But that was, you know, it's a difficult one for Martin, because what does he do? Start James Forest, who's, you know, getting on a bit on that side. But I think if, if Hassan starts at the weekend, then Celtic will certainly offer more of a threat and try and push Rangers back. But the best player, Camilo Juran, sort of, he ended up, he finished the game on the left-hand side. I don't know. I've ever played on the left-hand side. But you need to, you need to keep him happy, I think, and play him in his favoured position, which is sent to forward. But then they've got Casper Hoof, you know, the 11 billion signing, who, you know, many things. They'll play in the opposite direction. But that's not really going to make that much of a difference because Oxlade Chamberlain has been a brilliant player, but he can't, he just can't run like he used to. He can't cover the ground, and that's, that's the issue, isn't it? And that's where Rangers, if you're Derek McKinnis, is thinking, blind me, we can run all over them again. They can't afford to lose this Rangers, can they? Really? Absolutely not. Absolutely not. They're obviously favourites to go in and lift the trophy. It's the first trophy this season, and up here, so it's so, so important, and it'll go a long way, obviously, to start Derek McKinnis' legacy. So it's a huge, huge opportunity to get through Aberdeen first, and then obviously into the final. But as I say, as momentum, they've got it now, 585. Doesn't matter how you win, it was the most important thing, obviously, getting the victory in a derby day. But it's now about positivity and positivity, because they go out to Europa, Europa League. They go out to the conference league, Qualifiers. And it was disastrous for Rangers, after August to not be in European competition. But as Chris has said, they are Celtic playing in Thursday. After a big result, yesterday, then playing in Thursday again, and then for the big game. A week for this preparation could go a long way again for Rangers to get the victory, and it could just be too much for Celtic. We're talking about the physicality and the middle of the pitch. That's why I was asking about Oxford and Chamberlain. Obviously, coming in, maybe making a little difference, just putting a wee bit of quality in the middle of the pitch. Might do that in Thursday, might do it on Sunday. But I think the disastrous start that means, as I've had, it might actually play right into their hands, come in the energy levels on Sunday. Scott, do you think that that kind of winning at the weekend, and potentially as you say, with that advantage of not having to play midweek? Does that kind of get making this his round back on track, or is there still a little bit of a shadow cast by what happened at the start of the season? Oh, yeah. 100%. There is some negativity there. It's honestly unacceptable for Rangers not to be in the European competition after August. It's just, you know, you need to try and be in that any competition after Christmas, never mind in August. So, of course, it was disastrous. But he's now gone a long way. He always speaks so fair about his assessments in the game. He's always got a real fair assessment of it. He knew it was a disastrous start, but all you can do now is try and beat your rivals as consistently as comfortable as you could. He's went a long way yesterday to do it, and he's got another chance in six days' time to do it again. And gradually, gradually, it might, obviously, overcast everything that's happened in August. Scott, thank you very much for coming on. We talk about the difficulties of playing central midfield in an old firm game. I have a match report here from 2000. You're right, Chris. What? Have a match report here from 2004, when Chris played in midfield for Celtic against Rangers. Unfortunately, Alan Thompson was sent off in that game. So, the report then goes as follows. Neil's response to his team's predicament was predictable. He removed the disappointing onery camera, brought Pearson off the bench, and pushed Sutton forward to lend his considerable weight to the attack. The big Englishman, the big Englishman who's been consistently telling influence for the park-head side since his arrival in Glasgow on this occasion rewarded his manager with the most foolish sending off imaginable. Having been cautioned in the first half for a high challenge on Alex Ray, Sutton lasted only 11 minutes at the second before reaching out to handle a header from Marvin Andrews back to class. Yeah, that was the position of the arm if we'd have had VRR back then. I'm sure, I'm sure I'll have to say it on. Oh, dear. So, sent off in that moment. You did? Yes, sent off, yeah. You think this stuff of yours? That's a bowling. Scott, thank you very much. You'll be with us. Scott, I feel former Rangers beer field up with us on the Monday nightclub, and you can listen to the old firm on Sunday here on Five Live. Shay, Chris, Rory. 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