🎙️ Tifo Football Podcast September 17, 2026 ⏱️ 1h 30m

What's going wrong at Man Utd? & When will Liverpool be good?

🎧 Listen to Original Episode →

1. Executive Overview: Core Theses & Key Revelations

The recent edition of the Tifo Football Podcast provides an authoritative, unsparing audit of two Premier League giants navigating profound transitional friction: Manchester United and Liverpool. Hosted by Joe Devine alongside analysts John McKenzie, Steve Hanky, and Hamza Kaleeglunat, the discussion transcends surface-level scoreline commentary to dissect the deeper structural, tactical, and organizational pathologies defining both clubs during a pivotal phase of the season.

At Old Trafford, Manchester United's 2-3 defeat to Brighton in the League Cup—a match in which United surrendered a comfortable two-goal lead scored early through Shea Lacey—serves as the catalyst for an alarming diagnostic on Michael Carrick’s managerial trajectory. The collapse shattered a 50-year historical precedent at Old Trafford, marking the first time in 148 matches where United led by two goals on home soil and failed to secure at least a point. Joe Devine highlighted the psychological weight of this pattern, noting that modern Manchester United fixtures seem to exist primarily as mechanisms for unearthing unprecedented negative historical benchmarks. Beyond the statistical anomaly, the panel established that Carrick’s setup suffers from systemic tactical contradictions: an inability to construct rest-defense mechanisms, a lack of game-state control, and a total absence of a coherent spatial identity when forced into low-block or protective phases.

Compounding United’s tactical anarchy is a severe managerial communication deficit. Steve Hanky framed Carrick’s struggle not merely as a failure of tactical geometry, but as a narrative void. Lacking the natural inclination or ability to articulate a clear storytelling arc or strategic vision, Carrick remains uniquely vulnerable to the raw volatility of single-match results. When results falter, there is no underlying narrative framework for supporters or executive leadership to cling to, accelerating the sense of impending crisis.

Simultaneously, the panel exposed the structural dilemma surrounding Bruno Fernandes' role in United's midfield hierarchy. Steve Hanky introduced a quantitative critique of Fernandes' extreme shot volume, demonstrating how high-frequency, low-efficiency attempts from 25 yards act as an automatic possession terminator. By prematurely ending possession sequences, Fernandes denies United the ability to sustain field tilt, establish patient box-entry sequences, or shield their own backline through ball retention, effectively magnifying United’s structural instability.

At Anfield, Liverpool face an entirely different yet equally complex architectural challenge under Arne Slot. The departure of Trent Alexander-Arnold removed an irreplaceable source of progressive passing value—what Hamza Kaleeglunat described as an on-ball contribution equivalent to the cumulative output of the rest of the defensive line combined. In attempting to replace this generative engine, Liverpool acquired Florian Wirtz, but Slot has struggled to weave the German playmaker into a functional tactical ecosystem. Kaleeglunat colorfully illustrated this imbalance through a culinary metaphor: adding Wirtz to a system devoid of foundational progression channels is akin to making a Béarnaise sauce and adding the eggs at the end. John McKenzie reinforced this by contrasting Slot’s rigid structural placement of Wirtz with Andoni Iraola’s fluid spatial optimization, arguing that managerially maximizing Wirtz’s output in Zone 14 is the fundamental prerequisite for justifying Liverpool's tactical overhaul.

Beyond individual club dynamics, the episode offered a macro-level diagnosis of the Premier League's shifting tactical paradigm. The panel explored the league-wide escalation of hyper-physicality, man-oriented pressing schemes, and high-intensity duel winning as the primary competitive differentiators. Analyzing Will Spearman’s Pitch Control model from Liverpool’s research department, the panel warned against the industry-wide misinterpretation of spatial data—specifically how clubs over-index on raw physical speed while neglecting the technical literacy required to execute complex tactical assignments.

Finally, the conversation turned to the ethical boundaries of modern football governance, with John McKenzie launching a fierce critique of the adult advisory networks orchestrating the transfer strategy of 15-year-old prodigy J.J. Gabriel. The deliberate wiping of social media channels as a public negotiation lever was condemned as an unhealthy commodification of youth talent, signaling a worrisome trend in elite academy representation.

2. Context & Background: The Landscape Leading to This Conversation

To fully grasp the gravity of the podcast's insights, one must situate Manchester United and Liverpool within their respective broader historical and operational contexts. Manchester United enter this period under Michael Carrick following a turbulent decade of managerial transitions. The club has repeatedly oscillated between pragmatism and reactive counter-attacking setups, never truly constructing a modern, dominant possession structure capable of dictating matches against structured mid-block opponents. Old Trafford, historically an impregnable fortress where a two-goal lead was an absolute guarantee of victory, has transformed into an arena of structural fragility. The 2-3 defeat to Brighton was not an isolated collapse but the logical culmination of a team incapable of managing game momentum, asserting middle-third control, or insulating its central defenders against transitional overload.

Brighton, under their aggressive tactical regime, arrived at Old Trafford possessing a clear out-of-possession identity. Despite slow starts in previous fixtures, Brighton's ability to trigger intense man-oriented pressing sequences exposed the fundamental flaw in Carrick’s buildup design. When pressed, Manchester United lack the spatial mechanisms and press-resistant profiles required to play through central channels. Instead, they are routinely forced into low-probability long balls, turning possession over and inviting relentless secondary waves of attack.

Concurrently, Liverpool find themselves navigating a profound structural identity shift post-Jürgen Klopp. While Klopp’s era was built on heavy-metal counter-pressing and direct verticality, Arne Slot was appointed to introduce controlled possession, structural compactness, and methodical buildup play. However, structural transitions are rarely seamless. The loss of Trent Alexander-Arnold stripped Liverpool of their primary deep-lying playmaker—a player who routinely subverted opposition pressing structures through elite line-breaking passes from the right inverted half-space. Replacing that volume of progressive ball distribution cannot be accomplished through a simple one-to-one positional swap.

The acquisition of Florian Wirtz was intended to shift Liverpool’s creative hub from the deep right flank into the central attacking channels. However, integrating a high-volume central playmaker requires an intricate network of off-ball movement, structural spacing, and complementary midfield profiles. Without those elements operating in harmony, Wirtz risks becoming isolated, forced to receive the ball under sub-optimal conditions while facing compact defensive blocks. This dynamic highlights the central analytical question confronting modern football executives: how does a club transition its tactical architecture without sacrificing structural stability?

Furthermore, this conversation occurs against the backdrop of an analytical revolution in sports media and club recruitment. Quantitative metrics such as Expected Possession Value (EPV), Pitch Control, and pressing efficiency metrics are no longer confined to backend analytics departments. They have penetrated mainstream tactical discourse, allowing analysts like Steve Hanky and John McKenzie to evaluate performance beyond traditional subjective commentary. Understanding how pitch control models evaluate spatial ownership, and how shot selection impacts systemic defensive balance, provides the empirical foundation for the panel's conclusions.

3. Deep-Dive Thematic Breakdown

3.1. The Anatomy of Collapse: Manchester United's Structural Fragility and Carrick’s Narrative Void

The breakdown of Manchester United’s 2-3 defeat to Brighton offers a masterclass in structural decomposition. Early in the fixture, United demonstrated glimpses of offensive intent, taking a 2-0 lead through Shea Lacey's early strike and promising central combinations featuring Mason Mount operating in the number ten role. For the opening 20 minutes, Mount’s disciplined pressing triggers and energetic positioning provided United with a functional front-line trigger, temporarily masking their underlying structural vulnerabilities.

However, once Brighton calibrated their out-of-possession setup, the match inverted dramatically. Brighton implemented an aggressive, man-oriented pressing scheme designed to cut off United's short buildup options. By taking away central passing lanes, Brighton forced United's center-backs into uncomfortable, high-risk lateral distributions or rushed long passes aimed toward Benjamin Sesko. Because United lacked progressive receivers in the middle third capable of receiving under pressure, these long passes were repeatedly intercepted by Brighton's backline—featuring Pascal Struijk and Luca Vuskovic—who dominated aerial and ground duels.

"The issue right now is that it feels as though this team under Carrick doesn't have the structural elements in order to be able to control the game well enough to get through from a two-nil winning situation."

The sequence leading to Pascal Gross's equalizer vividly illustrated United's spatial disorganization. Under Brighton's sustained pressure, United’s center-backs split excessively wide to create passing angles. When a forced long ball was won by Brighton's header, United's midfield was entirely evacuated. A single header eliminated eight Manchester United outfield players, leaving Pascal Gross with acres of central space to drive directly at Lenny Yoro. In that sequence, Yoro was forced to cover vast distances laterally to defend Gross. As Steve Hanky observed, when defensive line distances become stretched and players are forced into desperate recovery sprints across open space, raw momentum inevitably destroys the defender's capacity to adjust, allowing Gross to execute a sharp touch inside and score.

"One of the challenges Carrick has is that he's not a storyteller or a person naturally capable of articulating a real sense of purpose and direction. It leaves him very exposed to the rawness of results."

This structural failure highlights a broader conceptual issue within Michael Carrick’s managerial approach. Steve Hanky framed Carrick’s struggle around managerial storytelling. In modern elite football, successful managers sustain public and internal support during performance dips by articulating a compelling, identifiable tactical project. When a manager clearly communicates the structural principles they are building—whether it is positional dominance, high-volume pressing, or quick transitions—match results are evaluated as incremental steps toward a defined destination. Carrick, by contrast, operates with an understated, quiet communication style. When structural flaws lead to catastrophic collapses, Carrick lacks the narrative shield of an articulated vision. He is left entirely exposed to the unvarnished reality of scorelines, amplifying pressure from supporters and executive leadership alike.

"When I watch Man United, I don't know what they're trying to do. It's not that these teams are playing well or playing badly; it's that there are contradictions in what we're trying to infer."

3.2. Possession Termination & The Bruno Fernandes Paradox

A central tactical debate within the podcast centered on the functional impact of Bruno Fernandes within Manchester United's midfield ecosystem. Entering the Brighton match for the final 20 minutes to salvage the result, Fernandes' introduction highlighted a profound tactical conflict between individual output and collective possession control.

Steve Hanky presented a rigorous critique of Fernandes' shooting behavior, conceptualizing it through the lens of possession termination. In modern tactical design, sustaining field tilt—pinning the opponent inside their own defensive third through repeated, patient possession recycling—is essential for both creating high-probability scoring chances and maintaining structural rest-defense. When a central midfielder consistently chooses to shoot from 25 yards out, every speculative attempt acts as an absolute termination of that possession sequence.

"If you have a midfield that shoots a lot—imagine a guy in your team that takes half of all the team's shots—that means every time they shoot, your possession ends. If you're taking these shots from 25 yards out, you have to ask if that possession could have ended with a shot closer to goal."

The mathematical reality of low-probability long-range shooting is unforgiving. A shot taken from 25 yards carries an Expected Goals (xG) value typically ranging between 0.02 and 0.04. When a player takes four or five such shots in a half, the cumulative xG generated is negligible, while the structural cost to the team is immense. Each long-range shot that misses or is blocked results in a goal kick, a turnover, or an immediate opposition transition opportunity. The patient build-up is dismantled, midfield rest-defense is dismantled, and the team's defensive unit is forced to turn and sprint 70 yards backward to recover.

This dynamic creates a systemic paradox for Michael Carrick. Mason Mount, while offering less individual unpredictability, provides disciplined pressing triggers, positional fidelity, and short recycling passes that maintain structural compactness. Fernandes, conversely, operates as a high-variance actor who demands total freedom to execute ambitious passes and distance shots. When United are ahead or attempting to manage a delicate lead, Fernandes’ high-volume shooting directly sabotages game-state control, turning structured fixtures into chaotic, end-to-end transitional duels that United are currently ill-equipped to win.

3.3. Re-Architecting Liverpool: Replacing Trent's On-Ball Value and the Wirtz Integration Dilemma

The panel's focus on Liverpool centered on the profound structural vacuum created by the loss of Trent Alexander-Arnold and the complex tactical task of integrating German international Florian Wirtz under Arne Slot. Hamza Kaleeglunat established the baseline of this analysis by evaluating Alexander-Arnold’s unique contribution to Liverpool's ball progression matrix.

"Trent Alexander-Arnold's on-ball value was the sum of the rest of the defense put together. Liverpool have lost that now, and they need another creator. You can't just add Wirtz and expect the same result; it's like making a Béarnaise sauce and putting the eggs in at the end."

Kaleeglunat's critique cuts to the heart of structural team building. Alexander-Arnold was not merely a right-back; he was a deep-lying quarterback capable of breaking double defensive lines from the first phase of buildup. His progressive passing distance, switch-of-play frequency, and line-breaking precision allowed Liverpool to bypass opposition mid-blocks without over-committing central midfielders forward. Removing that progressive hub fundamentally disrupts how the ball arrives into the attacking third.

The signing of Florian Wirtz was intended to re-establish elite creative output, shifting the origin of chance creation from deep lateral zones to central half-spaces. However, Kaleeglunat's culinary metaphor emphasizes that tactical systems are holistic entities. You cannot simply insert an elite playmaker into an altered structure and expect seamless execution if the underlying progression mechanisms have collapsed. If Liverpool’s remaining backline and pivot midfielders cannot reliably deliver the ball into Wirtz between opposition defensive lines, Wirtz is forced to drop deep to collect the ball, neutralizing his lethal spatial awareness in Zone 14.

"The difference between Slot and Iraola is that Iraola has tried to get Wirtz into the places in the pitch where he has the most impact. Even if the rest of the performances haven't been that impressive, getting Wirtz into those areas makes the managerial change worthwhile."

John McKenzie built upon this by comparing Arne Slot's utilization of Wirtz with Andoni Iraola's tactical deployment of similar creative profiles. McKenzie argued that Iraola prioritizes spatial optimization above structural rigidity—consistently designing buildup patterns specifically engineered to isolate his primary creator in high-impact central pockets. Slot, by contrast, has adhered to a more rigid positional blueprint, sometimes leaving Wirtz stranded in wider channels or starved of service amidst congested central blocks. For Liverpool's managerial transition under Slot to be validated, the primary structural objective must be optimizing Wirtz's location on the pitch, ensuring he receives the ball in areas where his passing and dribbling can directly generate high-value expected goals.

3.4. Pitch Control, Physicality, and the Premier League’s Structural Metamorphosis

Extending beyond individual clubs, the podcast conducted a sophisticated evaluation of modern spatial analytics, focusing on Will Spearman’s Pitch Control framework developed within Liverpool's research department. Pitch Control models evaluate spatial dominance not merely by mapping static player coordinates, but by calculating continuous probability fields based on player velocity, acceleration limits, ball trajectory, and arrival timing.

John McKenzie and Steve Hanky warned that rival recruitment departments frequently misinterpret the practical lessons of pitch control data. A naive extrapolation of pitch control logic suggests that signing exceptionally fast, physically dominant athletes is the simplest method for maximizing spatial ownership. If a player can cover 30 meters faster than an opponent, the model indicates they control that zone. However, over-indexing on physical metrics without assessing tactical intelligence creates severe structural dysfunctions—a pitfall the panel explicitly associated with Tottenham Hotspur's historic recruitment missteps.

This analytical tension is visible across the Premier League's broader trend toward hyper-physicality and man-oriented defensive structures. Clubs increasingly prioritize peak-age, physically dominant duel winners capable of imposing high-intensity pressing across the pitch. Leeds United served as a primary case study: a side that deliberately targets physical profiles to force chaotic ground duels and disrupt technically superior opponents. While this approach allows mid-table and promoted clubs to establish a competitive floor, it creates a hostile environment for pure technical profiles who lack elite physical resistance.

The panel illustrated the defensive complications of this physical transition by analyzing Liverpool’s pressing mechanics and defensive line coordination. The integration of high-intensity pressing requires absolute synchronization between the forward line, midfield pivot, and center-backs. When Joe Gomez jumps aggressively out of the backline into the attacking third to engage in a pressing duel, Virgil van Dijk—adapting to changes in top-end sprint speed—often maintains deeper line coverage to protect against long balls. This athletic discrepancy creates a massive structural gap between Liverpool's defensive midfield and backline—a spatial void that opponents such as Fulham (under Alvaro Arbeloa 1.0 and 2.0 tactical comparisons) have exploited by dropping intelligent movement into the vacated central pockets.

3.5. The Ethics of Youth Talent Management: The J.J. Gabriel Precedent

The final major thematic segment of the podcast addressed the burgeoning transfer saga surrounding 15-year-old academy prodigy J.J. Gabriel, using the situation to examine the ethical boundaries of modern youth talent representation.

"A 15-year-old doesn't delete everything from their social media account as a strategy to move club of their own accord. Adults are advising a child to do this, which I think I'm deeply skeptical of."

McKenzie launched an unsparing critique of the adult advisory networks, agencies, and handlers guiding young academy players. The practice of erasing digital footprints and wiping social media profiles as a deliberate strategy to signal discontent or force transfer leverage was condemned as a cynical, adult-driven manipulation strategy. A 15-year-old athlete does not independently formulate digital PR maneuvers to execute club transfers. Rather, adult representatives are actively weaponizing children's public profiles to generate artificial media leverage and extract financial or contract concessions from elite academies.

This trend raises profound questions regarding safeguard governance within football academies. When elite youth development becomes hyper-commodified, the developmental interest of the minor is frequently subordinated to the strategic ambitions of external representatives. The panel underscored the urgent need for regulatory oversight to protect young players from predatory agency tactics that expose underage athletes to intense public scrutiny and structural instability before they have even completed their basic footballing education.

4. Speaker Perspectives & Analytical Contrast

The strength of the Tifo Football Podcast stems from the distinct analytical frameworks, methodological approaches, and communication styles brought by each participant. The interplay between qualitative storytelling, tactical geometry, and quantitative data creates a comprehensive multi-layered evaluation of elite football.

Speaker Primary Focus & Analytical Lens Key Methodological Stance Central Takeaway / Thesis
Joe Devine Host, Editorial Anchor & Historical Context Contextual inquiry, historical benchmark tracking, narrative synthesis. Manchester United under Carrick are perpetually breaking negative historical records, exposing a deep psychological and operational vulnerability.
John McKenzie Systemic Tactician & Structural Auditor Spatial analysis, positional geometry, structural efficiency, organizational skepticism. United lack the structural mechanisms to control games from leading positions; Liverpool must prioritize spatial optimization for Florian Wirtz.
Steve Hanky Data Journalist (The Times) & Quantitative Auditor Shot-selection evaluation, expected possession metrics, managerial communication modeling. Bruno Fernandes' high-volume long-range shooting acts as an automatic possession terminator; Carrick's lack of narrative storytelling leaves him exposed to result volatility.
Hamza Kaleeglunat Qualitative Analyst & Tactical Balance Expert Holistic team profiling, qualitative assessment, sensory and culinary metaphors. Replacing Trent Alexander-Arnold's unique progressive value cannot be achieved by simply dropping Florian Wirtz into an uncalibrated tactical system.

Joe Devine acts as the essential editorial anchor, framing broad tactical themes through historical benchmarks and engaging narrative questions. Devine’s observation regarding Manchester United’s knack for unearthing negative club records set the tone for the match audit, anchoring abstract tactical flaws to concrete historical outcomes.

John McKenzie approaches football through a strict structural lens. Skeptical of emotive explanations, McKenzie relentlessly interrogates structural geometry. Whether diagnosing United’s midfield evacuation during Brighton’s press or analyzing spatial pockets for Florian Wirtz, McKenzie insists that structural soundness is the sole foundation for sustainable performance. His fierce stance on the J.J. Gabriel saga further highlights his commitment to ethical clarity in football operations.

Steve Hanky provides rigorous quantitative backing to the panel's tactical intuitions. By evaluating shot volume through possession termination optics, Hanky offers a compelling mathematical argument against inefficient long-range shooting. Furthermore, his conceptualization of managerial leadership as narrative storytelling provides a fresh analytical model for understanding why certain coaches survive performance dips while others succumb to immediate media pressure.

Hamza Kaleeglunat enriches the conversation through vivid qualitative observations and creative conceptual metaphors. His comparison of Liverpool’s midfield integration to making a Béarnaise sauce offered an immediate, intuitively accessible explanation of how structural balance functions. By pairing high-level tactical concepts with vivid imagery, Kaleeglunat ensures complex analytical theories remain engaging and understandable.

5. Strategic & Industry Implications

The insights generated throughout this podcast episode hold profound strategic implications for executive leadership, recruitment departments, and coaching staffs across elite European football.

For Manchester United and Michael Carrick, the findings underscore the absolute peril of relying on transitional moments without underlying structural control. A club aiming to compete at the summit of European football cannot operate with a tactical design that collapses the moment an opponent applies structured man-oriented pressure. Executive leadership must determine whether Carrick possesses the tactical capacity to engineer robust rest-defense structures and short buildup mechanisms. Furthermore, United must address the structural contradiction posed by Bruno Fernandes. Coaching staff must enforce strict shot-selection protocols, transforming Fernandes from a high-variance possession terminator into a disciplined, high-efficiency central operator, or risk remaining trapped in perpetual game-state volatility.

For Liverpool and Arne Slot, the operational priority must be the structural optimization of Florian Wirtz. Transitioning away from a system built around Trent Alexander-Arnold’s deep progression requires a total recalibration of phase-one and phase-two buildup. Slot cannot rely on individual talent alone to solve systemic progression deficits. Liverpool’s tactical hierarchy must redesign central buildup pathways to ensure Wirtz consistently receives the ball facing forward in Zone 14. If Liverpool fail to construct these foundational channels, their substantial investment in central creative profiles will yield diminishing tactical returns.

For elite recruitment departments across the Premier League, the panel’s analysis of Pitch Control and duel dominance provides a critical cautionary lesson. As football analytics becomes increasingly sophisticated, the temptation to over-index on raw physical metrics—sprint speed, acceleration, duel win percentages—is immense. However, building a squad exclusively around physical duel winners without auditing tactical literacy and press-resistance results in chaotic, rigid team structures. Elite clubs must maintain a delicate balance between physical dominance and technical elegance, ensuring that data models are used to enhance tactical coherence rather than replace it.

Finally, for football governing bodies and academy administrators, the J.J. Gabriel precedent highlights the urgent necessity of establishing strict ethical guidelines surrounding minor talent representation. As financial stakes in elite academy transfers escalate, regulatory bodies must introduce robust safeguards to restrict aggressive agency maneuvers, protect youth athletes from public manipulation, and preserve the integrity of academy development pathways.

6. Looking Ahead: Unresolved Questions & Next Milestones

As the Premier League season unfolds, analysts and club executives must monitor several key performance indicators to assess whether Manchester United and Liverpool can resolve their structural pathologies.

At Old Trafford, the immediate milestone centers on Michael Carrick's ability to stabilize United's rest-defense and lead retention metrics. Key indicators to track include:

  • Middle-Third Turnover Concessions: Tracking the frequency with which United lose possession under high opponent pressure in central zones.
  • Lead Retention Percentage: Measuring United's ability to maintain game control and structural compactness after establishing a one- or two-goal advantage.
  • Fernandes Shot Distance Distribution: Monitoring whether Bruno Fernandes reduces low-probability shots from 25+ yards in favor of key passes inside the penalty box.

At Liverpool, the critical evaluation period hinges on Arne Slot's tactical adaptations around Florian Wirtz. Essential metrics include:

  • Zone 14 Touch Frequency: Measuring the percentage of Wirtz's overall touches occurring in central attacking half-spaces versus isolated wide channels.
  • Phase-One Buildup Efficiency: Evaluating Liverpool's success rate in progressing the ball from deep center-backs into midfield pivots without relying on long vertical clearances.
  • Set-Piece xG Differential: Tracking whether Liverpool can re-establish top-tier expected goals from offensive and defensive set-piece situations to offset open-play progression shifts.

Ultimately, the Premier League stands at a fascinating tactical crossroads. As man-oriented pressing schemes and hyper-physical duel dominant models push team setups to their physical limits, the ultimate competitive advantage will belong to the managers and clubs capable of marrying elite physical intensity with absolute structural control, spatial intelligence, and unyielding technical clarity.

💬 Key Quotes & Speaker Breakdown

Manchester United form

"Every time I see a graphic like that in a Man United game these days I go, 'Well, there's another record that they can break.' They keep finding new ones, don't they?"

Joe Devine

J.J. Gabriel transfer saga

"A 15-year-old doesn't delete everything from their social media account as a strategy to move club of their own accord. Adults are advising a child to do this, which I think I'm deeply skeptical of."

John McKenzie

Michael Carrick's tactics

"The issue right now is that it feels as though this team under Carrick doesn't have the structural elements in order to be able to control the game well enough to get through from a two-nil winning situation."

John McKenzie

Manchester United tactical identity

"When I watch Man United, I don't know what they're trying to do. It's not that these teams are playing well or playing badly; it's that there are contradictions in what we're trying to infer."

John McKenzie

Liverpool tactical transition

"Trent Alexander-Arnold's on-ball value was the sum of the rest of the defense put together. Liverpool have lost that now, and they need another creator. You can't just add Wirtz and expect the same result; it's like making a Béarnaise sauce and putting the eggs in at the end."

Hamza Kaleeglunat

Michael Carrick's management style

"One of the challenges Carrick has is that he's not a storyteller or a person naturally capable of articulating a real sense of purpose and direction. It leaves him very exposed to the rawness of results."

Steve Hanky

Bruno Fernandes' tactical impact

"If you have a midfield that shoots a lot—imagine a guy in your team that takes half of all the team's shots—that means every time they shoot, your possession ends. If you're taking these shots from 25 yards out, you have to ask if that possession could have ended with a shot closer to goal."

Steve Hanky

Florian Wirtz's role at Liverpool

"The difference between Slot and Iraola is that Iraola has tried to get Wirtz into the places in the pitch where he has the most impact. Even if the rest of the performances haven't been that impressive, getting Wirtz into those areas makes the managerial change worthwhile."

John McKenzie

Liverpool injury management

"When Jürgen Klopp was appointed, the recruitment team was aware that he brought an incredibly high level of performance but had a record of his players getting injured because of his training methods. Arne Slot was brought in to keep the squad fit."

Hamza Kaleeglunat

Alexis Mac Allister's form

"The problem is that the issue with McAllister is his legs are aging out. The rest of his body is frozen in time; his arms are the arms of a seven-year-old. The scientists are baffled."

John McKenzie
📜 View Full Episode Verbatim Transcript 99,453 characters
Hello and welcome to the TFO Football Podcast sponsored by EA Sports FC 27. I'm Joe Devine and today I'm delighted to be joined by John McKenzie. Hello Joe. Yeah. It sounds better doesn't it? Yeah he sounds better. How are you doing? You okay? Yeah I think so. Great great. Oh it's a TFO Football Podcast return, right Steve? He's a football data journalist for the times of London. Welcome back. Hamza Kaleeglunat. Hello. Hey buddy. You okay? You again. I like you did on your debut. You talked about baked goods today. Oh yeah. What did I discuss the first time? You went to Dundee and you bought a date. We cut that. We cut the baked goods story. So for the first time ever you've discussed baked goods on the podcast and sadly we were supposed to be joined by JJ Bull today but he's not well. He's a little bit ill and we told him to stay in bed. So hopefully he's at home recovering but Steve Hanky he's not recovering. He's here. Hello. There he is. Now what did we talk about on today's episode? Well there's a lot of notes here that Steve has included. What I will tell you is that we spoke for the whole first half about Man United and for the whole second half about Liverpool. Okay and if you want to listen to both of those things please do. If you want to skip to one or the other because you hate the other that's fine or so. Go for it. We were going to talk about leads but they got bumped off the end of the cutting order because we just carried on for so long didn't we John? I certainly did. Yes. Anyway now what does Steve include? Well another proud old Trafford record fell as Man United surrendered a two goal lead to lose to Brighton and lead cup. Is Michael Carrick on the Solshar Highway to a sacking we discuss? Can momentum kill you? Well in many cases yes it can use it with caution. I have no clue what that refers to. Steve what does that mean? You were talking about the momentum of you know results and stuff like that and you know it sparked a thought and here we are. Okay. What's some momentum for me and again? Is it fourth time? Fourth MV square. It's half MV squared slash Steve Hanky equals death. Now what's next? We touch on how United do not have space eaters not space eaters space eaters that's right although winter is coming Steve you're correct about that we play a rondo it was a clean rondo I was involved it was very clean the whole thing was clean and there was no cheating involved whatsoever it was a clean rondo. Well momentum is just mass times velocity. Yeah time Steve Hanky. What's half MV squared then? Wait carry on. It's a long episode today we definitely don't have time for this. Are Isaac and Viet's starting to cook together or are some slash all of them under cooked? Steve Hanky explores Gen Z terminology as we talk about Liverpool in this episode. It's kinetic energy. Is it really kinetic energy? Which is the energy and object possesses due to its motion. I wonder if mince pies include any kinetic energy because we talk about them on my plate they do. Hands up begins a baking analogy which ends with us having an in-depth conversation about mince pies. That's true and other types of bakeries as well. In fact if you live in London get ready to receive some top tier bakery recommendations for all roads as well as well. Yeah granite. The poor roads leads to growing. It's now getting the in intro as well. There you go how about that that's that's top billing for Paul. Do your legs age out quicker than the rest of your body? Find out when we talk about McAllister later on and then we also talk about peanut butter. Are you a spreader or a cruncher? Well that won't make any sense right now but later on it will and that's the show. I did I miss anything Steve? No I'm very hungry now there. Yeah me too. Well ring for analysis is out this Saturday it's me and John chatting possibly about poo we don't know yet. We haven't fully decided but it is possible it will be about poo. That's not in video that's just in audio so if you usually watch us on YouTube head over to Spotify or to Apple or wherever you get your audio podcasts and that will be out there. There's no Sunday live stream this weekend but we are back on Tuesday morning with Rupert and Pinder Kaya Kineck and her Svar fan. It's set up horribly in the office very excited about that but for now Manchester United and Liverpool off we go. Well where else to begin of course? Then with all Manchester United 2. Three Brighton. Now Manchester United, this was in the EFL Cup. Manchester United took the lead early through Shea Lacey and Mason Mount played fairly well didn't they in the first 20 minutes or so before becoming firmly second best and shipping three goals by the 70th minute. The final 20 saw Manchester United try unsuccessfully to get back into the game in what was apparently the first time in 50 years that an away team down by two goals at Old Trafford had come back to win. In fact I think I text you John Halfway through the game to say ITV who were broadcasting the game in the UK they threw up a graphic when Man United were at 2.0 saying in the last 148 games where this has been the circumstance at Old Trafford Man United have won 146 and drawn to and it was then that I knew that they would lose because every time I see a graphic like that in a Man United game these days I go well there's another record that they can break. Keep unearthing new ones don't they? They keep finding new ones. I guess we're going to talk about Man United a bit more broadly we will come on to talk about Michael Carrick as well who's feeling vaguely you know I'll be going to sell share a light at this at this stage. Let's start with the game though. What happened in the game and I guess my main question is because they looked so good in the in the first 20 minutes I left the game wondering if they ever really had control of the game or if I'd if I'd just kind of imagine that because they created a couple of really nice attacking moments. Yeah I think it was Andy Nailer the Brighton chorus moment for the athletic who tweeted something about this is maybe the third time this season where Brighton have started a little bit too slow and then had an uphill climb to get back into the game so I think it maybe is something that Brighton have been doing with a degree of regularity this season but once yeah once it went to the villa game right yeah we're rubbish in the first 10 minutes. Yeah exactly and I think once once the the the game was set at 2-0 whether or not that just sort of focus their minds a little bit more but they they kicked into gear and for me what was so impressive about Brighton's performance was the out of possession. They just stopped Manchester United from being able to really progress the ball in any kind of sustainable way at 2-0. Yeah yeah exactly and that was the basis I think that they built the the the the game plan on and the Pascal Gross goal was just a fantastic example of how an aggressive press can lead lead to these sorts of conditions. It reminded me a little bit actually of the Chelsea goal against Fulham where obviously different because it was they they sort of forced the the long ball a little bit more Brighton but you remember when Coenka the the Fulham sent about played the ball long that and Fulham had such split centerbacks that all it took was a Max once for a quarter header and it took like eight eight Fulham players out of the game because the this was back in early early are below. Yeah you'll remember it well it was it was a long time ago now we play Alex all over the wing that's right it's different now. So I'll yeah Alvaro are below 1.0 the midfield was completely evacuated and and all it took was that header to take them out and the same thing happened with Brighton they were they managed to force Manchester United one way then the other and despite the fact that they were able to access the other side they were still under pressure when when the the other centerback received the ball played it long header into the feet of Pascal Gross who is in a lot of space obviously had to do like a really nice touch to take it inside Lenny Euro but in those situations I think when you have so much distance in your back line and you're then having to get across to try and prevent a chance the momentum can kill you and that's what it proves for Lenny Euro and that and that was a goal but yeah that all that all came from just a really really nice pressing sequence where everyone was arriving at their marks at the right time something that Errorola we're going to talk about later talks about after their game against full and where that wasn't happening this was like a really nice example of if you can nail your your pressing it's so hard to play against because no one ever ends up with time or space on the ball. It's also a reminder as well of the risk that's involved and of course when you play centrally there is a risk that you may lose it and it may come straight back as it did but also if that pass was slightly better and Cesco is slightly more effective in being able to hold that up or roll as man then suddenly Manchester United are in these are the small margins that define these matches and also that coaches are aware of because they go we understand these are the margins we will play by these rules we will match up man to man and we will essentially live or die by this and so yeah I think that's always just worth remembering when you see a sequence like that those little details that come from Brighton's pressing that force the pass into Cesco being an imperfect one and then how perfectly is it dunk that wins the header I think so yeah I know dunk wasn't playing I was it it would be either Pascal Strauk or Luca Voskovich there you oh yeah I don't know what it was I was watching a double speed on a very grainy Voskovich was really good I mean he he's the guy came to Brighton from from Spurs right he looks fantastic creation right so I remember doing one of the previews for the in the summer and creation media was really really hot on him they're like this guy's brilliant just following on from that I think I do think that there is a theme that is going to come up with all of the themes we're talking about today which is that we're seeing that lean into I mean everyone knows that the lean into physicality and the lean into more man oriented defensive schemes but I think what we're seeing from the the teams who are doing well right now would maybe even when we talk about Liverpool the teams who aren't doing as well as they could a lot of it is coming down to the ability of these teams to be able to force these jewels across the pitch be able to compete in those jewels and I think that's become it you know it's again it's not a profound point but I think what we're seeing particularly this season is that if teams can compete at that level then they will be competitive in this edition of the Premier League right I got what was interesting for me is watching this game I thought there were times more so in the first half it must be said where I thought man United looked quite good out of possession I did wonder whether that was because Mason Mount was starting the game in the 10 roll it was a rare rest for Bruno Fernandez who they brought on for the last 20 minutes to try and rescue the situation but what I couldn't understand or or derived from the game and maybe you could John was whether or not those moments where many United you know forward line press seemed actually quite good whether that was sort of a not a complete quirk but whether that was because like Mason Mount did a good job of starting it or it was actually something you know it was clearly coached that we were seeing in the system was it I guess was it a play a led thing or a coaching thing the second goal came from a high turnover where they where they force Brighton into making a mistake and then Mount scored the goal so very soon after the first goal and yeah I agree with you I thought that Manchester United did a good job of pressing particularly in the beginning of the game and the issue became that they became more passive as the game went on yeah I guess the question is why that might be the case well the reason I ask is is because I am now watching many United games trying to understand what it is that Michael Carrick is doing versus what it is that the players are doing you know I keep hearing about them as a team that maybe or Michael Carrick as a coach that's maybe more inclined to let his players solve problems on the pitch themselves rather than giving them all of the you know the structural ideas by which they might do that as a group so now I'm watching trying to work out what were they supposed to do in the game like did they do did they do what they were supposed to and they lost three two did they not do what they were supposed to and they lost three two or did they do none of it and it was just it was just a complete quirk I don't know what do you guys think this is a difficult question which is why we are both looking at each other the life is difficult what just because you don't know or because it's like well because you're talking about intention right and we never know what the coach said right and I think because of that it's it's so easy to frame these kind of results whichever way you want the narrative to swing right and I think a lot people are reading a lot into this game given that it's it's a cup game it's a change eleven that yeah there are some starters in in both teams but you know largely speaking there's there's so much change that it's understandable that their team might not look as good as you might expect them to be right so how much do you read into that but the weird thing about money united in this game is that at times they look better than they have at any point in the season and then at times they looked worse this and this is something that I think was really interesting for me about Liverpool for example where they were able to do like they made ten changes and actually when you watch that game back there's elements about that that change eleven for them that makes them much better at certain things right so if you're if you're a coach like iraola where it is all about arriving into your your jewels with with good timing and with good pressure actually playing a lot of youngsters is is quite a good way of being it is raising your chances of that being something that will happen because strictly speaking most youngsters will be more mobile they will be and there'll be more coachable a lot of them so you know at one of the points I've talked about in a video that we made this week is if you're playing someone like Virgil Van Dyke is very passive center back in a system where the center backs if actually you need them to be aggressive to step into the spaces behind the midfield you're obviously not going to drop Virgil Van Dyke but if you can place someone else who's younger who's just going to be like yeah fine you say to them your job is to make sure that if anyone goes into that space on March you're going to step up it's it's just much easier to to to have them do that and because of that the press becomes much better so I think there's an element of that as well with what happens with Manchester United is that you have a change 11 those players I think generally speaking will be like oh well we're not starters so if we can impress the manager then you know it will be good for our chances of getting in the team and so generally speaking I think then they'll do what the manager wants in terms of pressing to maybe a high level and the starters might do and I think that's what happened in the first 20 minutes I think that you know it was clear that they they just had an embarrassing defeat in the in the Darby at home no at home yeah yeah I against a player down and this was a good chance for them to come out they got two goals really quickly but then the issue became very quickly after that we have to sort of control this game they gave away a couple of sloppy goals the first goal was just a ball over the top which they failed to defend yeah and I think that's where that's where it starts becoming a problem right because I can understand if you're allowing the players to be a little bit more solution driven themselves that you go into a game like this and they come out the blocks really hot and they and they get into a leading position then you have to then you have to exist through the next 70 minutes doing things that actually if you have that structure in there and you have those coaching points it's much easier to control the game right so I think they don't that's what I'm asking I I I it's what are they doing I don't I don't I'm not saying that is in like they're not doing anything yeah I just don't understand I you know we've spent a lot of time this season we we talk about uh deserving spurs I can see what they're trying to do whether it's working on that yeah uh with with with Enzo Fernandez we spend a lot of time talking about where he differs from Pep Guardiola where he's the same I can see what he's trying to do it in the case of Andoni Uriola I understand what he's trying to do yeah it's not that these teams are playing well or playing badly it's that when I watch many nights it I don't know what they're trying to do I think and this is why it's hard to discuss the tactical element it's because there are contradictions uh and what we're trying to do is infer there's a good quote by uh Renemaric when he talks about the only tactics are essentially the things that happen on the pitch don't try and imagine what the coach is telling the player in the dressing room just judge on what you see because then you are judging on actual stuff that happens in front of you rather than what you imagine yeah where you can involve that insight is when you speak to a manager and they tell you we were trying to do x y set and you go oh okay well you try to do x y set um ABC happened uh what caused the difference between those things and this is where the contradiction comes in because players as John just mentioned do different things so let's say Mason Mount and I'm going to talk in the abstract here adds a lot in app possession structure to Manchester United for an a Fernandez comes in and he again is a very contradicting sort of player because he adds so much value but at the same time it took to the attacking side of the game but also takes away from the attacking side of the game and that this may not make any sense but let me explain uh so he gets loads of assists he scores lots of goals pretty straightforward his x a is pretty good he uh contributes from open play and set pieces however if you look at how he plays uh he shoots a lot now if you have a midfield that shoots a lot imagine imagine you're playing five aside and there's a guy in your team that takes out a name I'm going to use a big number here just for the sake of an example half of all the team shots yeah John can see 50% of the team shots um that means every time they shoot right your possession pretty much ends why because the ball goes out or it goes to the goalkeeper obsession restart goes in or it goes in right yeah I just want to give this guy this this mystery guy you've labeled weirdly feel some sort of affiliation with this guy it is a really good point it does go in as well right yeah yeah but every time you take that shot um that person takes the shot that means the other guys in the team don't take a shot so that could be Brian and Burma doesn't get to shoot um Matthias couldn't he doesn't get to shoot um Benjamin sesco doesn't get to shoot and if you're taking these shots from let's say 25 yards out you can ask well would that possession have ended with a shot closer to goal perhaps with a higher xg or likelihood of scoring um if the answer is yes then that player that's taken that shot initially shouldn't be taking the shot uh and in data terms you can quantify this you could just look at the xt of the position that's expected expected sorry yes uh and see like what it was at that point when they took the shot and the xg of that and calculate the probability that it would have been worked into a better position now of course you not always going to get into a best position if this john McKenzie guy shoots uh and his teammate um is me yeah is you and you and i'm not going to do as good with a shot yeah or maybe you'd struggle to get it into the box uh because you're um you you doing nice skills right exactly yeah yeah that's right that's right um so yeah then you wouldn't get a shot in the first uh in the first place in which case it is justified but i think when you look at that team uh you go actually they probably could do better with those possessions and i know that this was um what when i say i know i had conversations that informed me uh uh that when holland was there this was something that the um they were aware of it Manchester United uh that someone like finanders can eat into um his teammates output um and then the question becomes okay this player is it worthwhile is it is finanders' production justifying that uh people can make their own decisions on that but the key point yes yes right because well maybe it depends because where do you project for this team to go if this team is meant to build uh towards challenging for the title over the next few seasons uh you probably just want to focus around the new stars right but i guess i would push back and say it was important for Manchester United to get champions leave the season and they wouldn't have done that without ruining finanders right so it's not just i understand what you're saying that if you if you have a sort of miss weighted tactical balance in your team then it it makes it hard for you to and this is the this is the the point about that the game last night right is that the issue isn't that they can't school Manchester United don't have good players who can generate goals somehow or you know can defend in certain situations but what you need to have is is and uh well well what you you necessarily need to have this but actually the argument is is that if you have some kind of over the top structural idea both in and out of possession it should make it easy if your team to control games for for example even if your players aren't performing individually at a at a high level if you're struggling to to produce and i think that's what it what it is for me it's like okay they can get into two new leads but then then the challenge becomes how do you control the game to the end and you know the obviously if you look at the stat stat that you mentioned before 146 games where they've been two nil up in the first half they've 144 of them and drawn two of them that suggests that in the past they've had a teams who can control the game once they've got into those sorts of uh situations i avoided saying game states um because i know people get fed up when i use that to say winning but they're going to two nil leads and then they've been able to carry it through to the end the issue i think right now is that they it it feels or so though this this team under carrot don't have the the the more structural elements in order to be able to control the game well enough to to to get through from this two nil winning situation yeah to the end of the game well we also we've talked last season about when we were talking about Liverpool again uh we for Liverpool fans you know sweating through this conversation uh we'll get to Liverpool very soon but um we talked about Liverpool last season and Anna's slots ill-fated tenure as benefiting from what clop uh was doing before he left you know this kind of notion which i guess make sense in layman's terms doesn't it that if you have a manager for you know for a long time who who drills the team on you know the same structure repeatedly uh even when that person's gone for the first six months of the next person you it's not like you forget how to do the other things or or your muscle memory doesn't you know kick in and you do those sorts of things and you you've mentioned John this idea that that may be Michael Carrick actually at the end of last season benefited from some of the things that Ruben Amarim did with with the team some of those things may now after after you know the rest of the season and after a summer transfer window and a well cup those things may have ebbed away by this time so it does feel as though what we are watching at the moment is somewhat more of a pure Michael Carrick team and or Michael Carrick plus plus coaching staff i i think i read a very interesting tweet yesterday after the game for Adam Adam Krafton who who wrote the following he said one of the challenges Carrick has is that he's not a storyteller or a person naturally capable of articulating a real sense of purpose and direction it leaves him very exposed to the rawness of results and the volatility that comes with that now that's that's like a perfect journalism thing to say because Adam Krafton spends his days you know thinking about what the story of something is but i actually think it's very relevant particularly because one of the big upsides of Michael Carrick and people have been talking about this over the last few months is that he is quote unquote boring in press conferences he doesn't really say anything he doesn't give the media a lot to go with and off the back of Ruben Amarim who was the complete opposite of that i think for some people at the club that was quite you know a welcome change as it stands right now though when i i'm left wondering what the team is what Michael Carrick is doing and Michael Carrick isn't there to step into the void to you know paint a picture give us a vision of what that is i'm just very confused i have no idea whether they're good or not and all the the only thing that changes in my mind on a weekend to weekend basis is the month in which i think Michael Carrick is going to lose his job and i get we can start with what we do know and or what we feel we know and when you look at that squad there are some very good players and i think it's a good starting point to look at the squad because as we i mean to take this in a slightly boring way if you just look at budgets and wage expenditure that correlates very closely with league positions so if you have a good team and would be class good as a team that costs a lot because you can correlate the cost largely yeah or with with quality not always but largely but yeah we've seen players like Marcus Rashford be very good and Bruno and i don't need to run through them but we can look at that group and go there's a good attack there you can look at the defense and go as an okay defense and the midfield and go the maiden additions and then perhaps are they physical in a fully whatever but i think that's a starting point you go there is a team and this is i guess everyone listening could play on this like just before i say this like question where do you think that squad ranks in the league hold that in your mind and then i will say six yeah i was going to say eight than a bottle that yeah but let's say six it could be eight though let's say but yeah it's in that range in a window right um top end you could probably make an argument that a bit more but i imagine actually a united fans do watch united more than i do so to some extent it will also be way more informed when i say to some extent i mean they will be way more informed because they watch them a lot more so that's a starting point and then i think things should flow from that um but let me just take a slight sidebar um if when carrot was a pointed last season there there was a piece um that were that their figures under carrot weren't that much better um well they're in underlying terms and when i say underlying i mean expected goal difference goals um expected goals were worse uh under carrot and they were under hammer him in the 25 26 season um there was sometimes in football you have variance well all the time if it will you have variance sometimes you score about your expected goals sometimes you score below that is the nature always yes both ways yeah you're not not gonna nail you're underline numbers uh but what you could see under hammer him was actually a general trend upward if you looked at the sort of long term average so they were i think when he was sacked uh i don't have the specific figures but they were definitely in the top one two or three for goals expected goals uh and shots in the dip i think they were definitely top for shots in the division when he was shot when he their attacking production was good they had structures in place where you could see how the team were trying to move the ball forward get the ball into the box and then create chances uh that hasn't quite worked now um like you said though to some extent you could argue that just sacking hammer him to improve the vibe in itself was really important because fans reacted really positively the place appeared to react positively there were other elements about his management style that maybe you didn't work yeah and there's way more to being a manager than just the tactics and the performances like there's a really key things but also the man manager role is probably the most important thing how do you interact with players do they are they confident they believe in you uh copyman is a really good example actually the player that has grown in confidence and it's now playing a bit more his role definitely changed on the character he was giving a bit more space what he's giving him is giving space in the team and then given a lot more space to occupy in possession as well you can then ask is that appropriate for a player of his skill set should he be further up in the field given his qualities in small spaces rather than just being a number eight or a sort of playmaker type um yeah so all these things sort of inform sorry I haven't got an answer to your question no no this can be totally relevant to Liverpool later we go these are all the questions that we have we don't have any answers to it but I think again starting with what's a squad and then looking at these long term trends you can begin to unpick why the decisions were made and then go should they have done this with that without necessarily saying deterministically they should do this with that now yeah sorry I think again the underlying tactical landscape of the Premier League is worth focusing on because they I bet you do if you've got anything to promote releases of that no not at all but this is just off the top this is just off the top it's just off the top left the top of my head um and for audio listeners John reaches behind him to grasp a copy of the specter of Pep how Guadio wants modern football tactics and then slowly and quietly puts it back on the shelf yeah great radio um we talked a lot in the summer about how Manchester United have made certain decisions in their midfield right so they brought in a lot of technical players with the the suggestion being that if they can yet the the profiles that you might want so we talked already about physicality uh uh uh no longer market opportunities everyone's trying to get them you're you're spending upwards of a hundred million for Sandro Tanali a sort of physical um your space eater or whatever the kids call them these days in in the middle um Elliot Anderson being fantastic for Manchester City over a hundred million pounds Declan Rice went for a hundred million pounds more is this guy said it went over a hundred million pounds if you can't afford those kind of players what do you do if you're a team like Manchester United you buy Carlos Palabra yeah who is injured yeah of course and and you know they Carlos maybe is that kind of profile and he is obviously a cut price version of that for various reasons um I think that he will be a very good player and will probably solve a few of these problems but I guess at the moment what we're seeing is the difficulty of being Michael Carrick and trying to find structural solutions when your structure is impacted by the players you have in the middle right so if you don't have a large space coverer you don't want to open out large spaces in the middle that means that if you press high up the pitch it's risky because if the opponent's break your press then you don't have any players to mitigate it in behind in the spaces that open up behind right so yeah on the one hand it's very easy it's very easy to sort of watch the game yesterday and come out with conclusions of like oh well you know here we are again Manchester United doing Manchester United things but they they were intense in the first 20 minutes they got a 2-0 lead and and then they were a little bit more scared to be aggressive out of possession they tried to sit in a little bit more um the issue I the bigger issue here I think is that the situation that they're in is that now bright and start pressing them and they can't get out of their their own good their own half very well and that means that Brian are able to control the game without the ball surely if you if you've if you've got these players on the pitch like Yuri Telemann's you're Andrei Santos's these are the players that they brought in saying well we've got a higher technical base of players yeah so we should be able to control the game a little bit better with the ball if that does if that isn't working that sort of raises a question of like in this instance what's the club overreaching in terms of the logic that it was applying say if we could bring in these players we'll we will be able to compete in in a in a sort of counter-cultural way because the Premier League is moving into a more physical dimension yeah or is the conclusion well actually if if these players were given a better sort of structure or a better um over overarching plan about what they should do when they were trying to build that from the back um would that change things but I think the problem here is precisely that I think most teams now in those situations would just be like fine we're being pressed we'll just going to go along we're going to find ways of um winning second balls further up the pitch or maybe winning first balls further up the pitch you can't do that then with the players that you have so much and so you're sort of you're sort of hamstrung by by having a one-size approach which isn't working and I guess that would raise questions about what the manager is doing but on top of this part of me is kind of like well this is a change 11 and what do you expect to change 11 to do so can I pick up on that first point you just just made though because I thought there were instances in the game where man United built up quite well but actually every time that happened what I noticed was that one player in the buildup did something really cool that they couldn't repeat yeah you know like Yuri tealum and so I thought I thought for the first half I was thinking oh this is his best game for man United he's had a bit of a shaky start but there were moments where he retained possession surrounded by bright and players in a way that I can't imagine another man United player doing wriggle down of it and then you know set them free on an attack that when you watch it you think oh man that's so cool like that that's the way that they're going to create chances until you realize that that only works when the really cool thing that the one player does works over and over again which just is it which isn't a case and that's the difference between the individual tactic and the and the overarching tactic was yes Brighton's press was really impressive I really enjoyed watching it but if you if they are constantly being able to arrive man to man whenever the ball is near someone with players around the the subsequent three or four players around the ball that's a that's a tactical issue for you structurally in build up for Manchester United because they're not doing anything with their structure to try and complexify that situation to make it hard for Brighton to arrive man to man in all of these situations right so and that's where the question comes in what is the the more structural tactical approach from the team do they understand that there is issue in it is an issue here is there ways for players to drop from higher positions into lower positions to create overloads to give them escapes from those does the tactical structural solution involve J.J. Gabriel could it could involve a 15-year-old hard to say now quickly let me just let me just run through this because this was the other big piece of Manchester United news that occurred over the last few days this is I'm read I'll read now from a piece this was written by Laurie Whitwell in the athletic and the context here of course is that J.J. Gabriel 15 years old in Manchester United's youth team apparently asked to be deregistered as a player so that he could explore opportunities elsewhere that hasn't happened as far as I'm aware at this stage but this is what Laurie wrote about it in a subheading did this news come out of the blue he said there have been indications an issue was brewing last Thursday when Gabriel was selected to play for United's under 19s against their counterparts from Azerbaijan's Saba at Lee Sports Village rather than being named in the senior squad to face the same opposition's first team in the Champions League of Old Trafford later that day he scored three goals in that match but the club knew he and his family wanted a first taste of Champions League football this was a definite a definitive moment and afterwards United were informed of a plan for change that Saturday when Gabriel was due to train with coach Michael Carrick's first team squad he stayed away from Carrington in a major sign that all was not well subsequently every single post was removed from his Instagram page as well as any mention of Manchester United in his bio and I included that bit simply because obviously this player is 15 years old and I don't think any of us have seen anywhere near enough of him to talk about him as a as a player none of us have seen any of him as a senior footballer so we have no idea what he would be like but I do know for sure if you know come on last season for a very brief period yeah but I mean for a cave too you know that's all I need I can just check from his gate you're a real good guy the point I was going to make is what what I do know is that a 15 year old doesn't delete everything from their social media account as a strategy to move club of their own accord right and adults are advising a child to do this which I think I'm deeply skeptical of the I don't know anything about the situation or anyone involved but I am I'm deeply skeptical of a notion where a 15 year old doesn't get to play and therefore wants to do register presumably on the basis of the advice of adults around them which I think is is is very strange and disappointing to hear having said that for Manchester United fans share lacy coming on and scoring a goal in that first 20 minutes where everything looked good I'm sure that I'm sure that was nice lovely goal a reminder that there are there are other young players that Manchester United who who maybe will continue to play there but it's a bit of a horrible situation isn't it yeah we're dealing with well what you were talking about a child and you've got advisors that are looking after this child and thinking about their future but not just in a short term sense of oh I would like this child to play for Manchester United but also what's their long term career prospects you're going to have family involved so they'll go oh my son my brother my cousin my nephew how do they how do they develop what's the best place for them to be and that becomes a lot more complex and a lot more difficult to deal with when this young man and I count myself as somewhat responsible for this because for example the you're responsible sunday times ask for like a a piece just looking at hot prospects across sports and remember last year I put JJ Kbrook because sure what I've seen is great so but he's at the centre of one of the three biggest clubs in the world in their academy and there is global attention on him if for example I don't know if he's in charge of his social media but let's say he was advised to not go to training if he's on social media he will get some response from united fans here and fans around the world perhaps from a drift fans and oh actually come over here that's a lot of pressure that's just during the day let's say he's going to bed a bit late because he's been struggling to sleep and then he's got international fans sending messages these people are children like it's really hard to sort of understand how carefully we need to think about these subjects and talk about them and if we're completely frank as well he is 10 years away from his peak yeah where you would expect his peak to be yeah so much can happen in that time how many wonderful young players have we seen at the age of 21 or 22 or 23 and go there's a superstar at that united as well yeah and you'd go they will be a fixture in ex-team and their national team for years to come and it doesn't play out like that why maybe they get an injury maybe they they lose the favor of the manager one really important thing is progress is not linear there's a lot of pressure on these kids we have to be as forgiving as possible and there are people around them that are acting in complex ways initially look at this go that's a word situation what's the agent doing there what's the the kid doing there but once you begin to unpack it you go actually this in some ways is normal because of its abnormality because of how unique the situation is how any other 15 year old could think about a situation like this I don't know I'll be able to deal with it yeah yeah what about you John at 15 you were probably already like a 35 year old man weren't you how good at chess were you what was your ELO rating at 15 playing chess until locked eyes rubbish chess still rubbish still rubbish now now listen let's take a quick advertisement break and when we come back we're going to play a rondo and it's it's guys it's a two because poor old JJ is not here so you could join in I know you know the answers I can't I should to be honest someone's probably forgot someone suggested the rondo from the disco I probably could join in have you looked at the what someone a lot I'll tell you what let's have the ab break and then I'll explain okay right someone on the discord like what I can tell you without looking at any of the answers is that being there done that but beans felt like Sean bean on the teeth of football discord which incidentally you can join by clicking the link in the description they won't be the Sean being there done be Sean being there done that right do they just not born no I know it's not they suggested teams from the English football pyramid that have competed in European competitions of the sort since the Premier League began there are 35 correct answers I know that and I know a couple of them because I double check to see if they were I know a couple of them and I haven't even seen the list okay fine but I haven't really investigated the list and the reason is usually I would copy it over and add it into where I read it from but this person kindly made a Google doc for me also all I did was make a copy of it Steve I could share it with you yeah if I win there's a huge ass risk go for it but I genuinely promise you I'm happy to take that risk all right let's do it let me share it with you Steve okay Steve I've shared the doc with you okay okay while you're having a quick look at it I will tell people how the rondo works we ask a question that has multiple correct answers we go around in a circle today I'm included in that circle if I give an incorrect answer I am immediately ejected from the rondo if I did or dilly or dally I will be given more time than the other people because I'm sort of in charge of the room very exciting for me but if I give an answer that's already been given I will be ejected from the rondo as I said earlier the question here is what we're looking for is teams from the English football pyramid that have competed in European competitions plural since qualifiers I don't know as clear I would seem yes as soon as they've had a game that's been in Europe in September you mean if you finish seventh and you you have to qualify for the European championship you know if you win there's certain situations where random teams can let's assume yes looking at the competitions pass and present on here that's all clear I'll give you I would assume yes okay okay Steve I shall begin I will you and I will and I will say the one team that I know to be on there because I quit like when when it was suggested to me by Sean being there done that it was written as English teams and I thought I wonder if there's a Welsh team in there so I can change the the title of the rondo and Swansea City are in there okay I'm just going down this is incredibly detail thank you very much for this Swansea City are in there you are correct great stuff so just any team in in English football who has competed in Europe in some way since the Premier League star yes it's 1992 and you've gone with Swansea first now because that's because that's the one I knew right yeah yeah yeah okay Hansa over to you um Manchester City yes Manchester United yes oh it's not enough a better order yeah you'll need to you'll need to delete them as we go see it's harder than it looks I make it look easy Steve thank you don't not sure yes you make it look that your next aren't you or have you just done Arsenal Arsenal Chelsea yes Hamza says Chelsea Liverpool yes are you ready for me to continue Steve I find deleting them as I go is the most useful thing have you done that I'm greening them but no you're if you're greening them that that's going to take longer than deleting yeah yeah yeah because it reduces the amount every time you delete them good point it makes it easier for you to navigate said list yeah right okay he's okay I can't believe he's greening them I can't I could absolutely believe it actually do you know what now you've said that it is the most Steve Hanky thing I can imagine even described it as greening which I wouldn't even think of describing it I would say highlighting them yeah sure he's green that's your words though can I go now Steve you may aston Villa aston Villa correct great answer top correct see look now the trouble with this one is remembering what's been said because we've got really quite what you always say though Joe I say active listening exactly and I've been doing that John lead correct yes my boys full of I know that to be true I'm just finding them on the document and you are correct deleting ears quicker you wait for you wait for league final my friend yeah boys boys notting forest very oh yeah okay correct correct but you could have been caught out by notting forest I mean they were in it no sure but I mean they're most famous for the European cups but that's pre-night and night too they're full yeah I know what you meant but I think you were wrong John Brighton and Hove Albion oh correct Newcastle United correct this is a competitive rondo crystal palace oh correct so I want to say I'm going to say middle spread actually middle spread doodden correct okay oh god would you like a clue Joe no I don't want the clue because I know what the clue is it's that I know all of these get right I I'm going to say sundaland sundaland are in it this year oh interesting question sundaland are in it this year I think they're in it this year well they're in it this year if they're in it this year then they can they can't they can't because they've been in have been in european conversation since sitting in yeah no no no they're active if you if I get ruled out for this the people look like I'm right okay I just keep it okay fine okay just about though that is in an authenticality uh-huh Joe you're on the document I can see you on there just have a look just have a look at this I'm just checking that it doesn't I wasn't looking at the teams I'm just looking to see okay even if you do win this is a Rubin left with level cheating beyond Rubin actually this is how you're on point that's the first time I've looked at the doc and reason I went there is to check that uh what's the what did I just say sundaland sundaland yeah it's check that I'm not being hangkied out of this you know my check if you're still breathing it is everton I just like to how many have we had I tried to keep it out okay I think it's I can tell you there are now remaining 18 teams okay so we've done 17 oh god I can't apparently but everton is mine okay correct John if if Joe's allowed sundaland am I allowed Bournemouth because they have played haven't they apparently so apparently have them yeah yes Steve I only saw two other teams that weren't sundaland when I was on there and I won't say either of them but I'll tell you what they were at the end okay and you can't use them no I won't use them okay and now I'm going to think about what another team could be and I'm going to talk while I'm doing it in order that I still think there's a huge assortment over this if you win well I mean on the basis I can't think of any other teams yeah Charlton oh there's a Charlton I'm not in there I'm afraid so Joe you are out I go a clean victory will be West Ham oh West Ham so correct of course West Ham are the rest of the city oh oh correct oh no one of the teams I saw you'll never get I know I can look on I don't know if you've had this one but I'm going to go with Newcastle I'm afraid Hamza active listening we have already had a night it no no no no you still have to get one to get one to boy regency this is why I was interested in qualifying because Sean Dish took Burnley to European qualifying so I'm going to say Burnley and you would be correct there in the game well done John now other the teams I saw incidentally was Stoke City yep and Wimbledon who played once in the intertoto car nice other teams you could have Blackburn of course we could have Southampton Ipswich Bolton Hull Norwich I should have said Portsmouth Wigan Birmingham Stoke Wolves Birmingham going through the FA Cup I think was that was that right did they win they won the league they won the league the league I can't do that get you through that was when Oberthammy Martin scored that amazing last minute goal does that get them European yes in the Europa League yeah yeah fantastic team with Ziggich remember Ziggich and you could have had Sheffield Wednesday Bradford City Wimbledon there you go so thanks to being there done that not only for the suggestion but also for providing he also went through every year oh he did the he put the answers to the answers are there in the Google dark and then also he went through every year individually and listed all the teams and what they did just as into like impressive worked proving the work what was that what were the two teams that you saw in the doc they was they was Stoke and Wimbledon and Swansea initially right is there a total for the team that appeared in Europe the most still I think it's Man United is it Steve I just close do like we deleted all the answers jointly Manchester United and Arsenal and you know it's an awesome thing that explains why Steve so happy to say all of those appearances and Arsenal still haven't won it now congratulations to John on being named Rondo Del Rey we shall move swiftly on to discuss now as was promised Liverpool now Liverpool have spent 644 million pounds over the past two summers right Steve but they're still just in case that's wrong I want people to know that Steve wrote that but there's still not totally convincing under new coach and on Eriola Liverpool did beat Spurs three one on Tuesday in the Eiffel Cup with the somewhat rotated team but were unable to score in the nil nil draw with terrific heroic team fullham in Alvarabolo is 1.2 for one point one potentially that was a nil nil draw in Premier League in the Premier League with Premier League struggles fullham at the weekend Liverpool sit 8th with six points from four games in the Premier League not fantastic so not terrible we had a discussion the other day about who the crisis clubs were going into the international break and I don't I mean certainly Liverpool are not amongst them but here's what we think a very helpfully provided by Hamza's notes here's what we think the three big questions about Eriola were before the season started they were can he successfully coach a team who have the ball the majority of the time can his intense football work when the team plays more games and plays in European competition and can he handle addressing room full of big personalities which is of course always a question for a manager who's taking a step up in that way so Hamza as a starting point how what where do you think we are so far on each of those points above given that the season has now started or at least we've seen four or five games I don't think we know the answer to many really let's talk about intensity for for a second because when Jürgen Klopp was appointed one of the things that the recruitment teams Walton director were aware of was that he brought incredibly high level of performance but that he had a record of his players getting injured because of his training methods are really intense he would want his team to train at a higher intensity so that when they came to match is it felt easier logic makes sense it's just that it does have a physiological cost which you can measure in terms of soft tissue injury soon hamstrings groin injuries in particular usually those sort of red flags and there are other coaches in the league that you can look at that have similar sort of records but the club believe they went okay we understand that but it's worth the risk like he's going to we're going to click on with the really good squad some of those players may break but we will get a high level performance when they were looking for his successor though on a slot one of the things that informed that decision was that they would like a manager to keep their squad fit because they went we've got a really good group of players here if we could just keep them on the pitch they'll do well as that proved and that proved to be the case when they won the league they had really good availability in fact the Bournemouth match which is coming up so the equivalent match two seasons ago which was in February of March that was a first match in years that they had no injuries at all but all sport was fresh yeah and and that was credited to um slots training processes so he's a lot less intense the idea that you just have top obsessions and you would build your match intensity up through matches rather than training should be quite light um but you got injuries anyway last season and then so the question is here can Iriola keep this group fit because there's a lot of talent in it and again people may disagree to the extent of the talent in there but Bacola, Issac, Fertz, Ecotica, when it's bad it's amazing you go that's a really good attacking group and then you've got talented mechalester, sobsley whatever a Grafenberg yes you go all right there's a tons of group there if you can keep the majority of those guys fit and healthy and fresh then you'll have a good chance of winning um but as Iriola has spoken about in recent matches I think uh in previewing this spurs match he he mentioned um freshness is a bit of an issue because of how hard he's working the players um and we saw well I guess that match but uh the fuller match is an example of that because we're really bright against that let's get my dreads and then you saw the make mistakes that looked like they were fatigue informed and when I say that I mean some mistakes which is bad decisions but some look like the players were a bit tired and lacking freshness I see yes that's just one question and we don't really have the answer to that because you just need to see how this works over the remainder of the season and if we're completely frank I think the squad is a little bit light in a few areas uh so yeah then there's like you said the um the dressing room element and that's particularly important because slot fell out with maritala season right and that dynamic uh and uh back in i think October the review senior players that weren't too happy with our things were going so that informed the mood around the dressing room of course yeah there was the jigger jottas death which just made everything a lot more intense and heightened fragile maybe yeah um and then there's a question of play style which John had some ideas on last season specifically and and I think you said that you believe that you're able to could scale up um and I think I agree as well um it's just that he's been presented with different challenges um there's an optographic that came out the other day that live a ball of face more low blocks now again bit of context to that that is also because games they and how in some matches they've fell behind so of course that team is going to defend because they are winning there's no need for them to going to be in a high press with these small samples that can happen uh so yeah um do it really have an answer yeah uh the the key thing is though and everyone is spoken about this is getting his two most valuable assets his second verse to play together and orienting the team around those guys and getting output from them you're starting to see is that getting getting touched in the box in a few matches you've seen verse getting into the box getting shots off in the box his xa is expected to accelerate isn't quite where it should be he's been a little bit unlucky in that um I think he assisted his act for a goal that was offside but that was his sex fault um against hip switch and he scored a goal against um yeah forest yeah that was offside and that probably wasn't his fault because it was frimpong that was real offside so a little bit unlucky there but again if we frank his xa isn't where it should be and I think some of his struggles stem from the double pivot but we can come onto that like I said we've just spoke about five minutes about three very simple questions uh so yeah well they're overarching though aren't they I mean I'm glad that you finished on vets as well because one of the other things that we wanted to ask and John maybe you can pick up on this was last season something that Liverpool struggled with was losing Trent Alexander Arnold which I know is a kind of you know um a perlemic issue um in in in how Liverpool fans react to it but what you can't deny is that Trent Alexander Arnold was sort of vital to the way that Liverpool progressed the ball and he was a vital creative cog in the system when they lost him they didn't really replace him with a player in his position who did those sorts of things but we do have vets who who is a you know very creative player and for whom maybe a lot of Liverpool's creating can focus around has that improved because it was a bit ropey last season and and I think there was some confusion about how it was supposed to work but in in this small sample size as as Hamza says have you seen any improvements in that area yeah half um I think the difference between slot and iraola is the iraola has tried to get vets in the place in the places in the pitch where he has the most impact or has done in the past yeah and I think we've seen flashes of that there's been games I thought the the forest game actually he didn't get any assists but he we he got like pre-assists in I think for certainly for one of the goals and I think set up a goal that maybe was disallowed as well that that that he received the ball in the pocket and played the ball into someone in the in the front line who was able to take it and turn and go through and those are this those are the sorts of elite things that we saw him doing when he was at Lavercose and for example um and you know people got mad at me because I said you know they didn't even even if like the the the rest of the the performances haven't been that impressive even the fact that iraola has getting vets into these sorts of areas again where we can start seeing examples of why he's an elite player makes it all worthwhile making the managerial change um but there are questions with vets because and I think you know the reason why slot didn't want to play vets in those areas in trying to find pockets between the lines is because um I don't think the vets is particularly good at riding pressure in the in those sorts of areas and obviously when you're playing in those pockets you're going to come under pressure a lot um that's not to say that I don't think vets is physical I think he is he and people will point to his running data because he runs a lot in games partly because he's pressing out of the front line so he has to cover quite a lot of distance and you know he tracks back he helps out he is uh he's he's he's pretty good for for that kind of things but I do think that what one of the stats that was going around a couple of weekends ago was and it was it was a little bit unfair because Liverpool had played on the Friday so um people using this the metric felt like ball possessions lost after Liverpool had played three games and basically every other team had only played two right and vets was top of that list and already like possession loss metrics are a kind of interesting because actually creative players often lose the ball a lot right so actually Bruno Fernandez he's top of that list I think or maybe sobs high and then Bruno Fernandez and then vets it's part of doing business yeah but I'd I got a bit of pushback when I talked about this on Twitter because people saying well you know with someone like Bruno Fernandez or someone like Kevin De Bruyner they are very kind of risky um uh creators right so they'll when they receive the ball they're always looking to play positively they were looking to play risky passes that if they come off then you're going to create goal if not you're probably going to lose possession of the ball whereas vets isn't quite that like vets isn't like a high volume risky pass player um he's a bit more of a like a neat and tidy guy who receives the ball in space will take a couple of touches and then move the ball on so him losing the ball a lot I think represents him not doing what he should be doing as or what makes him really good as much which I think is a fair a fair argument but what we have seen is we've seen glimpses of that happening when he can arrive in space without pressure take the ball and then and then play these passes I think he's he's excellent and you couldn't understand why he was so integral to that Leverkusen team who who went invincible in the Bundesliga um I guess the big question is how do you form form these sorts of scenarios where he is finding space and influencing the game and I think that's part of the problem for for Liverpool right now it's the uh I've just made again I've just made a video on this which is coming out I think tomorrow talking about when will Irrola's Liverpool get good and the the issue is consistency I think in some games they're able to play well and usually the consistency is determined by whether or not the press is working it's the press is working they're winning the ball higher up the pitch or they're stopping the opponent from having any sort of dangerous ball progression but they're also able to be a lot more risky in their imposition play because they know well if you lose the ball we can win it back um and so what we started seeing a little bit I think is Liverpool being less aggressive in terms of their imposition side of things they're not playing the ball into those areas where where where where vets is accessible or even not not playing them uh in more direct ways they're allowing the opponent to fall back into a lower block because they don't want to lose the ball because they know it's going to be harder for them to win it back so I do think that with vets it's going to it is going to come down to where he sort of plateaus out if they are able to play a little bit quicker a little bit more risky from the back he's going to find himself in space more often with opponents running backwards towards their own goals those are the areas where he's going to look most dangerous in if they can start doing that more I think people will the the narrative on vets will shift a little bit if they are still a little bit too patient and a lot of it just becomes coming up against a low block there is the danger that the vets will get overwhelmed from a physical perspective in those moments and this is where and it sounds a bit weird talking about Trent Alexander on all two seasons after he left but this is where it's particularly relevant uh so how does stats from producer stack all on ball value similar to expected threat or epv um but it's the it's got different constituent parts with there's a passing there shooting there's defensive actions uh and carrying um and the key thing with Alexander on all is that here's on ball value uh was um the sum of the rest of the fence put together and right so this guy was doing uh three or four plays for him to the goalkeepers work on his own and if you go okay Liverpool have lost that now they need another creator you go if you just did the simple semi wall let's say Alexander on all ads x vets ads x as well but those two things aren't the same producing from right back and producing from attacking midfield it's like making a bernay source in pop and the eggs in at the end like that that just wouldn't work you've got to incorporate them from the beginning well a middle class analysis of you I was going to say cake initially there's no way to do a cake without putting the eggs in a state unless you actually baked it and then literally just dresses too and if you mention cake again John and I are going to remember that story you told us before the podcast your iPad accidentally full of cake does work anymore it's not full of cake it's full of dolce de leche sauce right in the speakers in the speaker in the speaker yeah it's like trying to make adults your de leche sauce without an iPad to cram it in your fan of baked products yeah I almost everything every time I meet you there's either a story or a physical baked product yeah is that what what's what's the origin of that I just really like them I remember the first time I came to this office I think I brought mince pies for you know you want me that the poshiest mince pies I've ever eaten I would recommend it for for people that when it comes to Christmas if you're looking for mince pies for your parents or whatever they're bred ahead to a lovely um set of mince pies read the so I went round London and I went to maybe 15 bakeries to try out and test who does the best mince pie wow did you do this just for you or just for me yeah I didn't write about it wasn't like for like a like a time out piece no I was encouraged to write about it I went no this is just for me and just for you guys on t-phone now the bread ahead ones are really good they're incredible there's a place called toad as well in south it's a bakery known south London that you're really a toad yeah toad wow really good never I've got to check out these places what's your what's your ranking of like a sweet baked goods like what would you like what's your go to give us your top three what that's a big question isn't it I mean you're not going to be judged on it I don't well you probably are going to be judged on it but like you know you can change your hands on a meter away from his microphone yeah come back in hands I can't I genuinely can't answer that's that's too challenging a question three your three favorites right now like what you when I mentioned baked good about this what about this what about your three favorite baked good ingredients you know so maybe a flavoring do they do they have chocolate and who's who you see what's you see it's it's like that lemon but it's like Japanese I've never heard of this you know I'm gonna bring in some I've used it I've no flavoured cake you see you have used you I think so like it'll be lemon drizzle but like with you do instead it's really good so I wish we did a cake what about what about textures like what what what based you like in a in a baked good I'd start with the cake nine just just to stand a yeah start with the cake I'm just a blender's good but I wouldn't go to that right I'm thinking I don't know any of these words what's polenta isn't I thought that was like a well on that note Steve hanky's written in the plan that we should explain mince pie to our non bridges audience this is okay it's a fair point though because what is a mince pie I don't even really know what's in it which is not actual because now they're vegetarian most of them yeah yeah yeah I've seen videos where people make meat ones and they look disgusting I believe that original mince meat was I was I was right was what is in mince pies that reminds me and then we only started mincing meat later St John the bakery they also do amazing mince pies and they cram like the mince meat in it's fantastic yeah so I guess the meat they have lovely Madeline the meat the meat of the mince meat is sweet meat right that's what the in the medieval period they used to call it sweet meat I got I've got mince pie filling also called mince meat is a sweet spiced mixture made primarily from dried fruits fresh apples spices and fat so it's a bit confusing to call it you know like it's mince meat in any way related to sweet bread but would they use sweet bread in I don't know I mean you're the expert on these things I don't know I've done a vehicle to random London in search of the perfect mince pie and you're asking me a humble guy who doesn't even know what Palenta is a humble yeah to a chocolate you imagine a really nice moist chocolate fudge cake that sort of texture is what I'm sort of like a velvet where's that what they call it what do they call it red velvet velvet cake is that I was the place it's a really good red velvet cake I right let's park this do you imagine I'm I'm bringing I'm I'm I'm I'm reading us in because I'm getting so hungry conditor and cooked a really good quick I'd recommend there were conditor and cook okay conditor there's one near water the right these down and what what cake should we get from there yeah so they do rotating selection over that so in the summer they'll have like a lemon meringue oh my gosh I'll stop I'll stop now I just want to go and eat cakes now so back to the egg thing oh yes a verse you're about to say another thing about cakes so you want to get him the ball in the right position yeah to to to refer back to one of the stats that John he was okay what kind of cake would you be what do you think black forest get a black forest get a okay we've nailed it okay carry on high ceiling low yeah high ceiling low low variance right yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah if you get it in the right situation and if if you take the fuller match and the the wrong players were taking risks in the team so again so past completion rate is a really simple statistic and you should generally avoid it when trying to analyze players because what you're actually looking what it as John mentioned it describes is intent but the intent from Liverpool's double pivot in that match did did not match with what they should be doing given the head of them so I think sub-design Gravenberg had 80 and 81% past completion rate respectively that's not what you want from a double pivot their job is just to get the ball to the number 10 yeah one of them can take a risk one given their profile they may like to carry the ball a bit more and you've got to be a little bit careful when you've got carriers as the number six because they can vacate the space but whatever like they haven't got got that balance right and when you think about the idea of carrying as well as that you should be generating an easier pass at the end of it right the whole point is you carry it and then yeah you lay off right and when you look at so it's a verse features quite highly for progressive passes received but when you watch him in the matches you're going yeah that that is technically in the attacking third but not really good area and you want to platform that player in such a way that they can then get the best out of themselves and their teammates and when yeah I don't know and this is what was happening with slot last season was that we were seeing vets having to do a lot of the deeper build up stuff so again it's like if you if he's solving problems deeper you then don't have them in the in the more advanced areas to do the things that you so good out yeah and and you may go well grab them Birke or McAllister and sobs are very good at certain things why would you compromise on that well that is the nature of football and team building and if you think back to you're going to clop sliver pool when they had one other in midfield for example so another was a very attacking player he could play on the wing plays number 10 he had a lot of attacking qualities and yet for clop sliver pool he was given a very important but very simple task it was you received the ball in deep areas alongside Fabinho to enable the full backs to push on and take take risk but you don't take any risk so you have a really high pass completion rate and you rarely have a loser ball and you use your your frame to shield the ball and begin a pressure he was a relief player and he facilitated the play ahead of him because clop realized that he had players like Alexander Arnold and Robertson that could create a lot of threat further upfield and they those were the spaces they wanted to attack as well as it forwards as well and that balance or they don't quite have that balance yet they don't have grab and Birke or sobs lie quite performing that role so you have too much risk taking from players it shouldn't really be taking risks and you end up with the star player not getting the ball where he should and then linking with the other star player it's actually we he's starting to look a bit better yeah seems to be doesn't he I think what's been so interesting I we can talk about the midfield of the pivot players all day because I think it's really fascinating because yeah he's been playing solvers line grand burch together I think those two players are too similar and they've looked much better when McAllister plays as one of the pivots and one of the other guys who wasn't offered a new contract or hasn't been to this stage and made it clear that he was unhappy about that and then store two incredible goals and he's been absolutely fantastic for them right and the problem is is that the issue with McAllister is his legs are aging out right so you can't play him in about the rest of his body is it just his legs yeah the rest of his body is frozen in time his arms are the arms of a seven-year-old incredible he's saying about it the scientists are baffled yeah but yeah so you then have this problem the other issue is the train neonie the the youngster coming through he's probably the best fit for playing the six as a sort of past controller guy as well as having the ability to to cover the spaces as well part the part the issue as well he was good on that he's a great he's been fantastic he's been like every every game he's played in under Ereola he's looked really good and that's partly because he's just a great profile fit but the difficulty is like you can't like he's going to drop gravel birch for a 19-year-old kid coming to and don't Ereola might but he may be he might you know yeah and but this is the this is the sort of situation they're in now it's like they're better players are all quite similar in that in that area and McAllister has the the fitness worry with him and neonie is a youngster coming through and that's the balance that Ereola sort of has to strike on top of the fact that they're playing three times a week and so you have to find ways of rotating them so it's definitely a tricky tricky one for them to deal with and I think the solution will be found in the market eventually but I do think that we we've seen games it's funny right the the full of game felt like a step backwards but the as you mentioned the athletico game was fantastic they were really good in that game and they were obviously good youngster the youngsters were great against spurs as well we're starting to see I think the upward trajectory a little bit from Ereola and a part of that is just individual players like you you know it I remember the same thing happening when he started out of Bournemouth where you know that at first it just felt abject and you're like what on earth this can anything good come from this chaos and then slowly but surely you're you're you're kind of carried upwards and the press suddenly becomes much sharper and it allows you the the bedrock to do everything else you want to do and you just feel as a Liverpool are on that track but yeah yeah yeah we're still at a point where you know maybe the question for me I guess is plateau where does it where does it reach yeah will it be good enough to consistently challenge at the top of the table or will it just make them a very good sort of champions league qualifying side and that's difficult as what you're sorry just quickly um whereas when cloppers manager he inherited a team where it's very easy for the fans the manager the players themselves and the club to be patient because they go oh these players just aren't a Premier League winning team what Ereola is inherited is a superstar striker a superstar number 10 he's now bought a superstar left winger he's got aging superstar center back aging superstar goalkeeper and then a youngster superstar center back coming through it's like and some players that have won the league before and are progressing the champions league so that they have their own expectation so the expectation is now heightened because whereas you go ordinarily new manager let's see how this works these guys are on big contracts they know that their peak is approaching or they're in their peak so they want to win now and that pressure then compounds and makes things a little bit more complex and uh just very quick on the midfielder if you move on quickly after this but as in there's um a phrase that um i can't remember if Bill Shankly came up with it or Bob Paisley but he spoke about every midfield needing um a buzzer a cruncher and a spreader a buzzer is a runner a cruncher is a tackler and a spreader is a passer and this is the the key to a good midfield i just think you want my peanut butter toast it's pretty much the same it's the same thing you know you want balance but the issue that Liverpool have is that um they've actually got these qualities that i selected in these players uh so like sobbers lies is a great buzzer and Grafenberg uh um uh well McAllister is a great um spreader because you can pass um they don't really have a cruncher who's the cruncher no they don't really have a cruncher but they don't have one but um Curtis Jones when he was there could do a bit of all three but none of them do um when they're together they can work when they're one the league you actually had that blend that worked out very nicely but if one isn't there that the balance becomes slightly a skew and you can't really build a midfield when you've got isolated qualities like that and when you've got isolated qualities then the question is to what extent do you um do you build around that because how can just to quickly return to Manchester United if you've got a spreader like tealamans you have to be really really good to have a spreader like tealamans in order to outsource his running to belabor and belabor has to be exceptional at that um and that's quite a big compromise to make yeah it'd be better just to get um someone that can do it all properly that way you don't have to make compromises and these compromises are knocking on upfield yeah sorry that's it makes sense they're more of a sort of smooth peanut butter blend but when you've left it in the cupboard for a long time and the oil rises to the top and the you know what i'm saying where the the the the butter of the peanut butter becomes more dangerously approaching cakes again all right well listen let's take a big step back Hamza you wrote a piece for the times of London recently i've taken a quote from it which I think is very interesting and it references what you were talking about john in terms of player profiles as well the sort of players that Liverpool have here's the quote now the club prioritize this is Liverpool the club prioritized ceiling raising players technical skill over physicality and rejected risk averse tactics such as optimizing the team's game model around set pieces earlier this year Edwards and co remained bullish that they're bet on technicality over physicality remained correct they believe the set piece craze in the Premier League was a passing fad likewise obsession with recruiting bigger rough and tumble types then in june they dismissed slot and appointed iraola Liverpool are still betting against the Premier League's trend towards physicality against a set piece game model conservative possession and defensive football ensure the game model of michael ateta's league winning arsenal a style that graded with some of Liverpool's hierarchy so this is this is fascinating because john spent a lot of time this season so far on the tifa podcast talking about how the Premier League has moved towards physicality and we see that in the in the transfer window you kind of make the point that that Liverpool haven't really done that and that they you know this it's not like they've decided that that that's wrong yeah it's maybe it still could be right but in hiring and done eerie ola it does it does it does raise a question of a possible contradiction in within that do you think yeah it does but also not quite because there's type of physicality isn't exactly and yes what I was trying to get out with this is actually that sporting directors they have to like gamble every see or make a call every season on where they think the direction of football is going yeah and Liverpool sporting directors went we see this physical trend that they they identified it and they went we don't think this is here to stay yeah and this is going to inform our decisions going forward that's where they went with birds and they put so much of the really really bet on him working out which could yet be true right it could be and I think there's that there's that quote that you use but like turn on his head slightly the it's easier to see the end of the world yeah yeah it's just it's easier to imagine the end of the world than it is to imagine the end of capitalist and when you're within and you're at the centre of a trend such as this move towards physicality in the Premier League it's hard to look beyond that and hard to think of a world in which that doesn't dominate but I think Liverpool looked at PSG and they went yeah they run a lot yeah they're physical but their ceiling is so much higher they want the ceiling raising players they just need the environment to unlock that and blending some of that physicality with iraola having that that pressing intensity that identity but also being very risk-taking is the way that they saw it and having those risk-taking players as technical players further forward as well so yeah so they're sort of zagging while Arsenal's gig is that right well a lot of the leagues gig so yeah and this I think will be the key thing that defines Edwards and Richard Hughes's time at Liverpool whether this is a film of now yeah because Liverpool was sure on full with full backs and midfielders but like you can resolve that in January you can resolve that next season but they've actually built a squad for this if this squad is wrong that's a massive rebuild they then just have to tilt towards physicality and its entirety that's an actual problem yeah it's like a years long problem it's also perhaps a problem for like the league right because if players like birds can't work in the league what does that say about what we did into football yeah you probably want those plays to succeed or should they only go to Spain and France and countries with warmer climates a few along balls I feel like the way you describe that I do worry that the Premier League is moving back in a direction where the old English first division was not necessarily you know tactically but in the sense that all of the exciting attractive players play elsewhere and then we don't want any of that here we want our big lads here who smash into each other do you know what I mean it would be a different kind of big lad smashing into each other but it's sort of the same thing I guess maybe you'd argue that well right Jackie works here so I'm sure wasn't flooring first does he though because he's you know he's amazing but he's somewhat inconsistent he would work better at Barcelona wouldn't he oh she Barcelona yesterday um 72 yeah they racked up like 60 touches in the box and like had six and a half xg it was like surely that's a future football I forget this like physical stuff like that is what you want to watch I think at least yeah yeah again I and we talked about this and Arsenal fans got very mad at me because I suggested that like this would come into the equation for Venice's junior right the difference between playing for a team like Real Madrid and Arsenal is for the actual players especially especially for wild players is just night and day like the expectations of what someone like Venice's junior would have to do for our teta um even even taking into account oh maybe our teta would have changed his approach a little bit to make it the the out of possession task simpler for for Venice's junior yeah I still think that if you are an elite player and you can go to a league where again like a big part of this in the Premier League is competitiveness um we were we were I see it's disappeared off the bottom of the running away there's no time for leads but like leads leads are a great example of of what's happening in the Premier League now right where they got promoted one season they aimed for physical players in peak age and and they can compete now are they playing attractive football I mean it depends what you want from a attractive football and and that is a subjective question but like in terms of what they're actually doing a lot of it is very from a tactical point of view is very simple but it works and they're winning jewels and they can compete because of the physicality and I think that's the reality we're in now in the Premier League is that everyone coming up is like well if we want to stay in the league the best way of doing that is leaning into dual winning players who yeah okay maybe we maybe we won't win games against other physical teams to have more technical players which is why leads have lost to Arsenal convincingly in both games last season but as soon as they become up against teams who aren't leaning into physicality we have a chance of just generating chaos and being a well positioned to be able to to win those games and I think that's that's the problem is that the path of least resistance in the Premier League right now is to just just take that route and say okay let's go for peak age physical dominant players and whatever else happens yeah well we'll solve the technical problems later on right if we've got to consistently once we're solid mid table side we can then start worrying about like bringing more technical profiles but I think that makes it really difficult for like technical technicality first players in the Premier League like the difference between vets and jerky for me is the jerky is much better suited to dealing with pressure so like the game the goal against palace I thought was a really nice example of this way dribbles everyone no one could get near him but then when the pressure finally comes in he uses that pressure to stay upright enough to then just flick his foot out to play the ball he knows how to play pressure and use it to his advantage which is something that vets I don't think has to that same level and maybe he'll learn how to do that but right now it's not looking like that so I think that has a massive impact on like the kind of players who are suited to the Premier League you can have technical players in the Premier League many of the physical players in the Premier League have a really decent level of technicality but the I think for most teams outside of the big six you've got to have that you've got to have the physicality first because if you buy a player who isn't physical enough and it doesn't work then it ends up we end up having this conversation about someone like flooring vets who cost a lot of money and fans are like we've spent loads of money this guy should be producing more than he actually is and I think lower down the table they're not going to take that risk they're just going to be like we're going to go for a guy who we know can compete physically it's partly why I think so many clubs went for inter Premier League signings this season because it's like we know that these guys can work in the Premier League and that's what matters most there is a risk with that as well if you lean too deeply into physicality in that you recruit players that can't execute the tactical game plan efficiently and I think Spurs actually struggled with this for quite a few years they so just to bring this back to sort of a data concept so Will Spearman who's Director of Research at Liverpool developed this thing called pitch control it's really elegant way of understanding who controls a game if I was to simplify it excessively is if you reach a certain area on the pitch before someone else you control that space and that makes total sense but if you then extrapolate that idea that means if I just have fast guys I run for all that isn't yeah that like it works but that is to like I said if you oversimplify pitch control and then extrapolate from the oversimplification you get to that endpoint but I think quite a few clubs and I would include Spurs in this have leaned into that equation and gone this player demonstrates a number of great physical qualities we believe that those can down the line developing to some technical qualities let's sign them and then they sign them and they can't quite execute what they need and they've over indexed for those things and then you just end up with a team that can't really do much a problem set pieces which they're greater but it's fast yeah do you think that is where do you think the you've said before that you think the direction for the league is physicality do you think that's a long-term trend do you think it's irreversible what do you reckon I think that I think that this is just the way that the idea is about football progress right is that and I think in in the Premier League because there's so much money it sort of slightly skews the way that it works so I think yeah everyone's just going to leave and lean into physicality until everyone has a base level of physicality and then suddenly physicality isn't going to be the differentiator it will become something else and and it will be the teams who find ways of differentiating themselves within this more physical environment and yeah I think you know physicality is always going to be there and physicality and technicality and not you know they're not opposites you can be physical and technical for example I'm actually I'm like at the top level of both of those things yeah whereas you're at the bottom of both and I'm speaking I we remembered halfway through you were talking before I we played Darts the other day yeah and I I believe the term is hooked you at Darts technically we didn't finish the game and we ended in exactly the same position no yeah but I got there much quicker than you did yeah and you played round the clock on a dart sport I'm not good enough to play round the clock on his art sport no there's John but he still he still went for it it was anyway we spent I don't have the physique of a dart we'll play again tonight because there's a dart there's a dart sport at at this location we're doing we're doing another one of your 478 book launches there so we'll get there early we'll have another little deal and I can't wait to see that you've been practicing over the last couple of days for fear of losing to me again now do either of you need to make an urgent point about Liverpool before we end the show how do you feel about just one ahead did how do you feel is either trajectory is upwards from last season yeah but that's that's an even just across the course of the season so far do you feel as though there's improvement happening yeah you can see the press is improving but you also see like I said contradictions the spurs match you you saw Joe Gomez jumping all the way into the attacking third with the press so much difference I think and bandite doesn't yeah because he's older it's just a hard circle to square square to circle yeah either way yeah because he's he's still fast but he's lost a bit of that top end pace and so much of this requires of this system requires everyone buying again and jumping and yeah and you've got that gap between defensive midfield and the forward line which one for full and we're able to exploit by the way with it will be dropping into that space full of our an amazing team it's worth saying I below 1.2 is yeah that's really funny to three is has been quite actually I've had to go show it for a while as well in the first half yeah and they switched that in the second half yeah at sort of causing problems for Liverpool's press because you've got versed in a lot of running but they beat the second bar goal and suddenly and you said was in a weird position in that match as well because he was thinking okay I want to cover the centre back but they're finding it's so easy to actually pop it around me should I drop in but if I drop in then I'm not playing pressure to the centre back so I'm going to stay on the centre back and then they just pop it around him and then I'm inside so there are some problems but I think generally yeah you some of the issues of last season still persists they're not quite creating the quality and volume of quality chances that they need to they need to just have more big chances in the box in a complay they need to have more involvement for some of the forwards but yeah there's some positive signs we still don't know how they're going to sort of if they can manage leads that well which emerged with a bit of problem in preseason we still don't know how they can manage so yeah yeah when he says leads he means when they're ahead in games not just like but we don't know how they're going to manage no we don't know how to manage leads and they're set pieces we don't know if that's a definite improvement yet that if you just added like a normal level of set pieces to Liverpool last season they would have been fine which which is crazy because in how like bad they were elsewhere but if you just add some set pieces and you can see slightly fewer yeah that's like third that's fine yeah sorry don't have a answer but we will discover them over the course of season we will we will okay Steve anything else I really want some peanut butter now he wants peanut butter look at it in the country by the way for me you're a crunchy boy I'm a smooth man what about you John I don't eat peanut butter really that much but if you if you were in a shop and you had to buy one I think I think I'm context dependent sometimes you need a bit of crunch sometimes you don't everyone's context dependent you know don't make yourself sound special just because you've written a book now what about you Hamza right though isn't he so but he's totally right if you have always a context dependent if you had like Reese's peanut butter cups and they're crunchy but like what's going on here it's meant to be something fair point that's fair point I do like Reese's pieces yeah yeah John is the kind of person that would be making his own Reese's pieces at home absolutely now there we go uh Hamza thank you uh you're welcome John thank you no thanks to you Steve thank you crunchy and we will be back we hope JJ Bull is feeling better already get well soon JJ and we will be back aren't there's was there there's a Saturday ring for analysis episode which are we doing it on that thing we said we might do it on maybe oh you recorded one with someone else though yeah but that's for next week that's for next week yeah okay but are we doing you could do it this week and then one because the one we're doing this week yeah but it's context dependent oh my god this is everything is called doing it all the poo thing I'm not for it yeah you want to do the poo thing sure okay do you it's possible that ring for analysis will be about poo I haven't read article yet but there's there's one about poo and I was intrigued by the headline that's all I'll say if it's not about that then this was if this was a fake advert for something else there's no a Sunday live stream this week or indeed for the following few weeks because there's an international break coming we can't do it this week either but we'll be on that we'll be back on Monday but until then Tera