Duncan Alexander on The Totally Football Show: "England had three more shots on target in the 2010 4-1 defeat [to Ger...

The Athletic FC Totally extra. Today, we're having INFOM with the 5-1 in Munich. The night Sven Zinglund scored 5 while Germany knows dive. What a time to be alive. A quarter of a century on its into the archive in this totally extra. It's a Friday morning in late August. Maybe for you listener, it's late September, but hello to you wherever you are and whenever. Duncan Alexander's here. Hello. Daniel's story is on the big screen. Good morning. Good morning to you, Daniel. And joining us in the studio for the first time in a well, too long. Raphael Honegstein. Hello, hello. Hi, Rapha. Hi. Thank you for bringing me in on this joyous occasion for German football. Well, you say joyous, but who had the last laugh? I wonder, maybe that's something we'll be exploring. Would we look back? Ahead of this Tuesday's anniversary, happy 5-1 in Munich day to all who celebrate, but this Tuesday will be 1st of September the anniversary, the 25-year anniversary of that epic England performance. Daniel, is it one of your favourite England games ever? Yes, absolutely. I remember, one thing I remember about it is that I got three months later, or three and a half months later, got given the V8 guess of this for Christmas. It's an old nostalgia feeling of getting a VHS of one single match to watch and I remember watching on Christmas afternoon. Christmas afternoon, 90 minutes. The full 90. Yeah, I think it was very much a sort of early noughties coded, the men will go and watch England Germany while the women of the family did other things. So it was, yeah, it's quite patriarchy coded Christmas afternoon in 2000. You on this recording were England shooting from left to right in the first half? Yes, interesting question. Because I think this is the game. This is the weirdest game for that point of view. I've never seen a game where it's almost a 50-50 split, whichever highlights you watch, which way round, which is the ground, the camera is. I remember England playing left to right first half, whether that's from the VHS or from the German coverage, is reversed. Yeah. Because the advertising boards. Is the match at right? And at one time I would have had English sponsors and one side Germans. So you're just honest English sponsors, one side. Sneaky German sponsors. Irrigant. Efficient. Yeah. Yeah. That's incredible. Was that a common practice? Yes. In Germany. Well, everywhere. Yeah. Really? Every European game would have had that. It would have reversed. Yeah. I did paint it on the ground slightly, whether they had cameras both sides. Yeah, it was big enough to come with that. Okay. This was, of course, the old Olympic stadium. It was. So with as Daniel points out, the sabutio scoreboard. Yeah, that's one of my abiding memories. Again, I think that's probably because it was on the front of the VHS cover. England fans with that scoreboard behind. But yes, it was the almost exact sabutio scoreboard of how they presented the score and how they named it written, which was superb. Did you ever replay this game? Duncan Daniel in sabutio form? I hate sabutio. Why? I think it's the worst thing I've ever invented. Why? It's absolutely rubbish. It's not like footbrain sliders. It hurts your fingers. I guarantee that. Yeah, it's a lot of flicking. But it's just I never enjoyed it. And I got given it when I was, I know, 12 or something. And I just hated it immediately. Like even trying to get the pitch flat is almost impossible. Yeah. Well, you'd have to, I mean, you should put it on a board and on it on and stuff. Yeah. I mean, the German version of sabutio is much better. Oh, you tip kick. Have you seen that? Yeah. So you get these little tin figures, match figures, and they have a little button on top of their heads. And if you push the button, wait, if you pull the button, the leg pulls back like a trigger. Yeah. So you push it, you kick it. So it's actually kicking balls. And then you can buy figures to have a flat foot like they open up their foot. And you can curl it. Um, tip kick. Check it out. It's really nice game. Wow. Of course, now there's to have video games, but I used to really enjoy it. There was a Lego football set where the players were all on springs and behind each player, there was a little flat panel, which if you pressed down and then released, it would, you would, you could actually gauge, not sure you could actually put spin on it, but possibly, but you could certainly gauge the, the strength of your past. I digress. Rafa, this five, one performance that you may or may not recall happened back in 2001. Is it famous? Is it notorious in Germany? Is it seen as inherently funny that the game that English fans venerate isn't a world cup or European final or even a semi, but a reasonably random world cup qualifier for a tournament that Germany went on to reach the final. I've been lured here on false pretenses because I was told we're talking about England, Germany the year before, which is much, we should do is a much better game. I don't think anyone here has a DVD of that. No, I mean, this, this game, this game, um, of course, was momentous in, in many ways. What struck me looking back at the formation and the, the line up was just how stuck in the past Germany were. There were only two players younger than 27 on the pitch. One was Dysler, the supposed one the kid who never quite made it at 21. One was Balak at 24. Wow. Who was then heavily criticized for having the wrong sort of body language and not wanting it enough and certainly lost. The same was said of Didi Harman. So the whole analysis, the whole way this game was looked at was still very much stuck in the past. With wing backs, with three at the backs, almost a sweeper system, no wingers, no attacking, wide players whatsoever. Two strikers who weren't very good in Junker and Neville. And it showed you that despite, you know, Germany's decent results or semi decent results, if you look only at the workup and exclude the euros, which already had been the disaster in 2000, that Germany really was stuck. And I remember very vividly, my good friend and colleague, Ronald Reng, either writing before or after game that this is a young, exciting England team. And he very much contrasted that with a sort of static where we can grind up results, but we have to live on our pragmatism kind of Rudy Foller football that was, that was happening at the time. Foller was still in the ascendancy then because he taken over after the euros and there was this feel good factor for him. This was a massive dent along with the Nill Nill in Iceland, where he completely lost it in a TV studio and started shouting at the interviewer. Right. National team managers shouting in TV studios over poor results against Iceland. Luckily, we don't have anything in that in our baggage. We'll get into the game in a second or two, but did it spark a reboot? This game, or is that an urban myth? Was that reboot from your wonderful title of your book? Was that already underway at this point? It was underway. And for example, the interview at Jensen Vockney after the game and said, you know, how can you explain such a proper performance and so on? And he did talk in the interviewer, so on kicker, that yeah, we are, we are seeing younger players coming through, but we only just started like a year ago, so this will take time. So the reboot was very much on the way, but I think what was lacking, if you will, was sort of a top-down understanding what the problem was. I think the grassroots reforms were being put on the road, but the way football was fought about, the way football was talked about, the way football was played at the highest level wasn't, and just to reiterate that, you know, this, some of these players were of the Bayern Munich team who'd won the Champions League only three months before, playing also with a sweeper, grinding out results against Men United against Real Madrid, a very defensive counter attacking football, Oliver Kahn doing heroics, and that was sort of still perceived as the best way forward, because everyone deep down knew we couldn't go head-to-head or toe-to-toe with the better sides. We could only kind of drag them down to our level, and that's how our Germany way expected to play, which is why the one-nil win in Wembley the before, which was a pretty dour game, decided by a free kick that should have been saved, was seen as some kind of tactical kind of masterclass because we nullified this much better England side. Right. Wembley knocked down after it. And got Wembley flattened. But that was not the case, because this team were irrepressible, and it showed just how old and immobile, especially our defence forces. Right, I mean, other teams, Greece, for example, did manage to repress them. But that night, what a performance it was, maybe more significant even for Germany than it turned out to be for England, from what you're saying. Well, we'll touch on that maybe... What's touch on it now? Yeah, maybe quickly. I mean, Kicker said it's a lesson. It's a lesson. But then I looked at what I looked at their analysis, and I don't see that any lessons were really being heated. It was all about individuals not performing, you know, questioning of mentality, kind of the knee jerk reaction that you always got when Germany lost us, because they didn't try hard enough, or they didn't defend well enough. I mean, without, I know, we want to move something. No, this is what we're here for. The next competitive game between England and Germany was the 2010 World Cup, when I say it was four, one, and the roles were essentially reversed. Right. In Germany, you know, the developments that Raffa's talking about had come through. In England, we're very much just running on memories. Running on memories. Have you got a quiz question for us Duncan? I do, yeah. We all remember, Michael Owen's called Hattrick in this game in Germany, yeah. He scored the next England Hattrick against Columbia in 2005. But how many different players have scored in England Hattrick since then? Since the Columbia won in 2005. Yeah. How many England players? Yeah. Well, I can think of one, maybe two, we shouldn't give the answer, should we? Well, we'll come back to answer it to have a think, but yeah, obviously, you know, play some players mentioning no names. He may play in Germany right now, have scored more than one Hattrick, but he can't see this one, but he just, yeah. Just one. Interesting. Interesting. Daniel's already thinking about that. While he ponders, pretty suggesting, let's hit the harp. See, what else this week and football has brought us down the years in the Almanac. All right. So this week and football history, 25th of August, 1992. So Eric Cantanar, speaking of Hattrick, scoring the first ever one in the Premier League. That was for Leeds against Spurs. We talked about it in a recent and a hugely enjoyable, totally extra about Lorac King, Eric. It's free. Wallace, to the touch line, overcomes the cross, Chapman's in there and Cantanar's in there. And it's a Hattrick for the Frenchman. His third strike took it on the volley, sweet volley. And it's for the Leeds, three for Cantanar. 15, by the way, 15 British players would score Hattrick's in the Premier League before the next overseas player would bag a treble. Do you know, you probably do know who it was about a year later? So there were a lot of Hattrick's around them. Yeah, it was F and a co-cute. Not a treble, technically. It was the first place to score four in the Premier League again. But you know, that's right. Anyway, also this week in football history and about a year after F and four, 28th of August, 1994. Robbie Fowler scored the fastest Hattrick in Premier League history. Fowler's now. It's Fowler. Is this going to be his Hattrick? It has to be surely, yes. An incredible story. It was for Liverpool against Arsenal. It took him four and a half minutes. Madness, a record, as you undoubtedly know, for 21 years, sorry, 21 years, until Sadia Mourney. Remember that, Raf? Not just a treble in just under three minutes. For Southampton against Southamavilla. Crazy. Let's see what else we got. Oh, 1966, 27th of August, Rennie Higgita was born. Again, we did a hugely enjoyable, totally extra with the huge enjoyable Felipe card in us. Debunking the scorpion kick. Did we debunk it? Did we debunk it? Yeah, offside. Oh, that. Redneck. Goodness me. Have you ever seen anything like that in your life from a goalkeeper? That is quite the most remarkable piece of goalkeeping I have ever seen. Lots of great content in there. All about that mad freewheeling, Colombia side of the early 90s and the less than pleasant way that things turn out for them. 28th of August, 2011, 15 years ago, today, actually, was I-8 to be Arsenal. Man United, 8 Arsenal 2. Young tight. And he scored two solo beauties. Manchester United. Show absolutely no mercy. Good times, eh, Raf. Do you remember that? I do. Forced Arsenal to go out and buy mechalatetra in the transfer marker. And Pemetasaka. We'll work out. All right. It just goes to show a defeat sometimes. Any fun. Sometimes when you lose, you win, didn't Nick. Nick Berry? There is the worst name. Nick Berry, yeah. Nick Berry. There we go. And finally, 26th of August, 2024, saw Sven Urenerickson leave us two years ago already, whose finest moment, I would say, and I think most people would agree, as England manager came, 25 years ago, this coming week, on the 1st of September, 2001, in Munich. OK, high on, nationalist further, 36 years since England. And the surround round, he'll last beat the Germans at home. And the atmosphere has got to her extent in one way, if we win, he says, I shall feel English. I shall feel English. No built to Yaka. It's a goal for Germany, and it's classed in Yaka. Is it OK? No. It's kept in my head. I think we're back on level, Jörg. 30 minutes, and Sharat. Once. Once. Oh, I'll go through again, Bringen. Put a shot to the actress here. Owen. Oh, this is getting better, and better, and better. Beckham scolds again. Now, pesky's to his left unmarked. Emil Heskey couldn't be five. Heskey! It's five! Come on. Daniel, have you dug out your VHS this week for a little look back at Germany 1, England 5? And if so, it was another word, what did it look like to you? Yeah, another word is right. England effectively in my head went five years between Netherlands in 96, and Germany in 2001 from really playing well in a game that I remember watching. And in so in that sense, both of the second halves had this sort of other wordliness feel to them where this is what happens to England rather than what England do to other teams. Watching it back this week, I'd forgotten just how the game could have gone both ways in the first half. Jimi had as many chances as England. Obviously they took the lead. The other thing I'd forgotten is just how few other really big chances England had other than the goals. At one, we had started the jumps out. Duncan mentioned Germany 2010 when England lost 4-1. England had three more shots on target in the 4-1 defeat than they did in this 5-1 win, which is blows your mind. Results, focus, narratives. But they just took their chances superbly with Owen being that guy. And the thing that jumps out is the time of the Gerard goal. The quality and the timing of that Gerard goal was again, one of those goals that felt to me as a kid felt like England always used to concede in terms of timing and quality rather than England actually used to score. So yeah, the Gerard goal just completely shifted. The cables come up on the back. They're coming up to try again, baby. The pit doors for them. What? What? Here is Tim, Abba. What is straight from Stephen Gerard? Did it look like a missive from another time to you, Duncan? It was 10 days before 9-11. It was in many ways another world. Yeah, four days before Bacchia was born. So I mean, in many ways, it feels like the end of the 20th century that came in, you know, if you look at everything that then started afterwards. But I still think I would say England's performance is reminiscent a bit of a modern team. You know, they were the counter-attacks. I mean, 2001 is probably Pico and obviously won the ball on door. But the way, particularly for his hat trick, go the way he kind of takes the ball on the outside of his foot, which you always used to do before he sort of sprinted through. That was, you know, in your mind's eye when you remember Michael Owen at his peak, that was it. But yeah, I mean, as Daniel said, I think going in ahead was key. And that finished from Gerard. I mean, it's interesting because if you look at the team, the midfield was Gerard and Skulls in the middle. Nick Bombay, you know, might be the least remembered man from that evening on the left and obviously Beckham on the right. But Skulls and Gerard, that night, but absolutely brilliant together. And obviously, you know, a few years later, year 2004, Erickson was having to fit Lampod, Gerard and Skulls. And I don't know, there's been a lot of revisionism around that over the years. Well, I think people have automatically thought that Skulls should play Central Midfield, but he, but Lampod deserves his place in that team. But I do think maybe it's the memories of this game that have lost it because Skulls was, I think this is probably his best Central Midfield performance. Really. England lineup that night. Seaman and Goal, Ashley Cole, Saul Campbell, Real Ferdinand and Gary Neville across the back for the midfield as he mentioned of Barnby Skulls Gerard and Beckham. And that's one thing that struck me watching this. Holy cow, he could ping a ball. And Hesky and Owen up front for Germany, Raffer. As you say, not a vintage lineup, but still one that had performed would go on to perform very, very well about six months later. They got great results. I'm not sure the performances were actually that impressive. Against famously very amenable opposition all the way to the final. When they played their one top side in the arguably the whole tournament, of course they became unstuck, but ironically not many people will perhaps appreciate this. This was their best performance also at the World Cup in the final. But that's when they lost. So they played much worse against Paraguay, USA, Ireland, but managed to squeeze through. Of course they had that big 8-0 win against Saudi Arabia in the first game. But yeah, it was not a great Germany side, even though they made it to the final. I would still say the football was pretty... The biggest dissonance, I think, is that obviously all of the calm was probably Germany's best player at that World Cup. And he was terrible in this game. He should have saved two, maybe even three of the goals. Well, he afterwards said they should have played my kit bag. It would have saved more than I did. Yeah, yeah, I saw that quote. It was just great. And it showed you, I think, how critically he was of himself, but also how big the expectation was all of the calm. And how big his kit bag is possibly now. He would always find a way to stop the opposition, even when they're bare down as many times as England did. That was something else I wanted to say. I forgot, I'll come back to you. For all Germany's issues and rebooting, hopes weren't high. I think it's fair to say Daniel. I don't know how much you recalled or the buildup to this game. But Germany's record in World Cup qualifiers was ridiculously good. I think they'd lost one in their previous 60. They not lost at home to England since 1965. They had beaten England the previous year in the last ever game at Wembley. There were six points clear of England, admittedly having played a game more in the World Cup qualifying group. England, that defeat to Germany, had been such an adeer that they had seen their manager leave, Kevin Keegan, and subsequently sold their birthright down the field to a nation of seven million skiers who live half their lives in darkness. A.K.A. brought in Sven Jörn Erickson as England manager, Daniel. Yeah, and England as a football psyche was still very much trapped in that Germany psycho drama at that point. This was only five years on from Year 96, which itself was just simply an extension of Italian 90. And the defeat at Wembley, which was at the time viewed as an opportunity in the last game at Wembley to sort of read England of some of those issues against, as Raf says, a non-vintage geometry team had been lost in a really just a kind of tedious, uninspiring, insipid way with, as you say, Kevin Keegan, then, well, half-time hiding in the toilets of the Wembley Stadium and resigning. So, yeah, that's like a drama peaked again. And so, going into the game, everybody expected England to fall short in exactly the same way as they always had against Germany, or at least had until since 66. That's what made it refreshing. That's what made it so unexpected. And that's why Michael Owen was the leader of that movement. Even three years after World Cup 98, he was still seen as this sort of fresh-faced wonder kid because he'd only scored seven England goals between 98 and this. So, it was another breakout moment for Owen and that was where the surprise came from. Owen was still in the 20, what was he still? He was still in 20. No, 21 at that point. And, yeah, so it was just that it was that that complete surprise factor. And this sense, not just of winning a game, but of reading ourselves of one of those albatrosses hanging around the neck of English football, didn't completely happen, obviously. But I think primarily because of how England went out of the World Cup in 2002, which was I think most people think our best chance of winning one since, well, until at least 2018. But, yeah, the other thing that struck me watching the game back is that was peak England big Premier League club England team, in that 10 of the 11 were from Arsenal or Liverpool or Manchester United. The exception was Rio Ferdinand who would go on to join Manchester United. There were three more players from those three clubs on the bench. There was also Owen Hargis who would go on to join Manchester United. It was just this, you could see the big cliques forming in hindsight nine months ahead of 2002 because, yeah, it was basically there's your Arsenal table, there's your Liverpool table and there's your Manchester United table. This stage, it felt like they were still young enough to get on and produce performances like that. And I think the other thing to add as well is the memory of England not qualifying for World Cup is still so strong. Obviously, it didn't make it to 1994. Qualification was hard and it's hard to remember now and it's just, you know, willing to concede a goal or not. It's really not easy to get on the World Cup. It's not. Yeah, fair. But, yeah, I mean, when England lost the first game to Germany at Wembley and then drew under Howard Wilkinson, the great Howard Wilkinson, the last English manager to win the top flight. In Finland, no, no. Shortly afterwards, after Keen and Resign, I remember people were pretty much saying, well, that's it. You know, I'm not going to go to the 2002 World Cup, two out of three World Cup for that England. Wow, only the top team in the group would go through automatically. The second place would go into a playoff. Germany just needed a win in this game. Rafford, two, book their place in South Korea, Japan. And so confident with the German Football Association, the DFB, that they'd actually already arranged friendlies around the dates of the playoff, which clearly they weren't going to be involved in. Yeah, which I think was one of those things that was played up by the tabloids about every association in the world. Okay, fair enough. Does that? Fair enough. But yeah, they were confident. They were confident because of Germany's record. And the idea that they would miss a tournament, unlike England, was totally unfathomable and out of the question. Which is why this defeat, rather than sort of invoking too many issues about England and Germany, I think in fact, most Germans were taken aback just how much of a reaction this result got in England. They weren't quite aware of the depth of feeling towards Germany before this game. Right. Although in 96, of course, it sort of had first in England, but this was kind of an addition to that. But the big fear or the big crisis came as a result of the result, Germany suddenly staring at missing out on a workup for the first time and having those playoffs. And of course it was supposed to be, as it turned out, it was going to be against the Ukraine, who had a very, very good side. And there was real fear and trepidation that this is going to be the lowest ever that Germany football will find himself, I am not even qualifying for a major competition. You're listening to The Totally Football Show with James Richardson now with you four times a week. Keep up to date with us on Insta and Enjoy S and Glorious Technicolor on YouTube at The Totally Show. Well, Pierre Luigi Collina was the referee, pleasingly enough. And it's six minutes in. Peep, peep. Germany is scored. Neville. And Janka against Siemens! It's the first minute after the old English motto, Wait and See. Casting Janka had opened the scoring. Daniel, you were commenting on the fact that England didn't implode, which was the kind of first sign that something improbable was underway. Yeah, it was. England also did what they needed to, which is responded pretty quickly from a free kick situation. You mentioned Beckham's Pinging Long Balls in that game, which were remarkable. He effectively set up the first goal with a free kick to the back post that Gary Neville had it back across. Beckham takes Gerard waiting here. Campbell getting in first. Now it's come all the way back to Neville. Are they offside? No, they're not. There's a chance to an equalizer here. And they've done it. Michael Owing, yes, again. Very good. I think because of the youth of the team and because of Owing leading the line, there was this sort of sense. And because they've gone one no down, there's sort of a sense of like, well, they're going to have to give it a go. And I think that England team at that time believed more than the public, the population did. I think they believed in themselves, particularly that Manchester United Core plus Owing. And as I said earlier, having got to 1-1, the game was really, really even. You know, David Seaman makes a made a great save from Sebastian, Sebastian Dysler, I think. And the game turns on that point because if England go to one down, I think England don't win the game. We say this so much, but even in those games that the margins end up looking great at the end, there were several points in that first half where England were the worst team in the game and could easily have fallen behind and maybe would have crumbled. Well, they did fall behind at the start of the game and came back. And maybe if they'd gone to one down, they could have done it again. Because as you say, there seemed to be a level of stress and pressure absent from their performance that we'd seen in so many other matches around that time. How much of that is down to the work of? Their fresh-installed, skin-loving, fuelled, dwelling, Svenur and Ericsson? Darkness inhabiting. Correct me if I'm wrong, Duncan, but the cliché became the Svenur and Ericsson, the England would play well in the first half and then badly in the second. Is that right? Yeah, his classic quote was, first half good, second half, not so good. Exactly. If only he had some agency to sort that out, but well. But actually, yeah, so this was the opposite. And it was the opposite because England had, we're using Michael Owen as this sort of one-man counterattack in which one of Skulls or Beckham or Gerard would play a pass in. Or Emil Husky would win a header. And Owen would just be this roadrunner just zipping up the pitch. And obviously we'd seen it in 98 with the Argentina goal. But England hadn't really seen it between that time. The Owen had only scored seven goals in England in the three years and the interim. And two of those were in a six-line against Luxembourg. He hadn't really, he'd kicked on a club level, but hadn't really kicked on in the same way at international level. And it felt like deliberately or otherwise, and my suspicion is it was slightly otherwise. The England started defending that lead in the second half. And then Owen just became this one-man counter-attacking threat that Germany, the lack of pace at the back, Germany just could not deal with it at all. Beckham, now can he finish Husky? Oh, heads it down out again! And England have gone into a three-one lead here in Munich. Michael Owen gets his second of a match. Oh, fantastic stuff. I think Owen benefited from the fact that he and Liverpool had absolutely destroyed Bayern and the Super Cup a few months before, where Linker was just as exposed at the back by him. And of course, Oliver Kahn couldn't bring his aura to bear in those one-we-one situations because Owen scored, I think, if not one, and two goals in that Super Cup. And I think he certainly had the belief that these Bayern players, you know, these German players, they could be got at. And he played with such confidence and freedom that it was just another level, far too quick, far too agile, far too germany side. Gerald's goal at the end of the first half was his first in an England shirt. Michael Owen, getting his second of the night, only I think three minutes into these second half, which started brilliantly then for England. And this, of course, not just the night, Duncan, that England beat Germany five-one, but also that the English game lost one of its commentary grades. Yeah, Brian Moore died. You know, arguably the greatest commentator in my opinion. You know, Emma Mann, who'd sort of soundtrack so many great England goals, including the Owen goal against hydrogen tune in 98. So it kind of made it. I thought people didn't find out to the next day where I'm immediately went out after the game celebrating, but yeah, quite sad. Well, a good night to go, I guess. I suppose so. I suppose so. Owen then secured his hat trick with a lovely through ball from Gerard Daniel to make it four-one. And by now, the young Daniel's story is in Dreamland. Oh, Owen's throw again for England. What a shot for the hat trick here. Owen. Oh, this is getting better and better and better. One, two, three from our colloing. Yeah. Watching the game back, one of the kind of Mandela effect things I'd done is the fourth and fifth goal, I could not believe how close they were together. In my head, England went four-one. Then there was a period, a long period of just not much happening. And then Hesky adds the icing in, you know, 86, 87, 88 minutes. The scoring's done with 20 minutes to go. Hesky scores after 74, and that Owen goal is 66. I couldn't believe quite how close they were together. And, yeah, the Hesky goal in retrospect has become the sort of unfairly on Michael Owen. There's almost become the defining tagline of this match, even Hesky scored, which is a deeply unfair on Emil Hesky, because he was brilliantly effective for England at a time when lots of players weren't. And also I saw a video of Michael Owen this week in which he said that Hesky was by far the striped partner he enjoyed playing with the most. Both that Liverpool and for England, which I thought was a really nice mention, because Hesky's become a bit of a sort of, I don't know, a bit of a joke I suppose, but his goal record was not for no more for England, but that's not what he was there for. He was there as a facilitator, and the way he won headers in this game just completely could showed his worth to England. Weirdly as he was a kind of target man in a counter-attacking team second half which is quite a hard role or an unusual role for a striker to do. His header for Owen's second goal, the one that squeezes past Khan, is just a brilliantly weighted header, perfect. And I think the thing with Hesky is, I think he's had, I think his reputations recovered a bit in the last sort of decade, but I think he was one of the first players who's career went into the social media age. And I think towards the end of his career, he did massively and fairly become a bit of a joke figure. But if you look at his career, well over 100 Premier League goals played for well over 5,600 games, many times in England, he was a really, really good player. Without going too deep into this, I think there was absolutely a race element to Hesky's reputation as well. He was seen as this kind of lump almost, even though his immediate success at Peter Crouch managed to sort of own that reputation and sort of use banter as fuel, I suppose. And sort of make it a stick, whereas Hesky was never really, didn't ever really feel prepared or able to do that. I think he was, I mean he was a phenomenal player who completely changed his game from the level from what he was at Esther to what he had to be at England and did the job at every time he was asked him. There's a lot of support with leaving this career, but I don't think anyone would wish 20 minutes away from quite sensational leave of the year in Munich. And Skulls gets four, he's got Hesky on for the pass, England will win again. It's him, he'll Hesky! It's fine! Well, it just gets better and better for England. I saved three blinds half an hour ago. This is George Thomas Haley. This is the totally football show, part of the Athletic FC podcast network. The Athletic is the only place you can read articles by Daniel Taylor, Amy Lawrence, Phil Hey, James PS, Oli K, and the very best football writers around. Michael Owen, Lewis Bell writes Michael Owen, earned the ballon door that day he was to receive it a few months later. As a kid, it's all we could talk about how good Owen was and how we all wanted to be him on the primary school lunchtime football games. So three months later he wins the ballon door. How much of that is down to the performance in Munich? A lot, but obviously it was the year 11.1, five trophies, although come on, the community shield. Slash charity shield is not a trophy. But as Raffa said, the super cup, that was a decent performance. Hesky's holding that game as well. Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't say 2001 was a classic year in global football in terms of individuality, but he probably was the deserved winner. So Khan was third that year, who came second? Ah, Raoul. Fair enough. Five-one then, Raffa. Franz Beckenbauer afterwards called this the best English performance he'd ever seen, such a high bar, of course. Was the reaction in Germany as much this team is going, that team is going places as it was we've got to reboot our own? Yeah, there was a sense of that, but it was slightly overtaken by this sort of outrage when it came to some of the tabloid headlines that accompanied the game. I don't know if you remember, but the mirror had this famous mock-up of all of a Khan's gloves burning with the line talking about the ashes. The infection at the remembrance of arrogant clinical penalty scoring and downright bloody irritating German football, which died in the Olympic state and so on. So deeply and lamented by the large circle of English football rest in peace. Now, I think when you're in England, you know how to take this. No, it's not very seriously, but in Germany, translated onto one, it's seen as a huge thing and as a big insult. And in a very tangential sense, I'm part of this story because I got a call, I think on the Monday or the Tuesday after the game from the German affair, saying, something's going on, the English press up to something, we don't know what it is, can you find out? Can you go and buy the newspapers today and see what's in it? I'm like, yeah, okay, sure, why? It says, yeah, it was really strange. They came to the buy and training ground and wanted to present Olver Khan with some kind of fair play trophy because he was such a good loser. We didn't really know what was going on. He wasn't there anyway, so his number two Stefan Vessel took that cup. Now, what had happened and a German affair didn't realize at the time is that the mirror had kept on playing on this ashes thing and had this idea of presenting Khan with his gloves burned in a little urn and give that to him and sort of making him accept almost that this is, you know, these are the remnants of German football, but he wasn't there. And it's fascinating, I think, because it took somebody on the ground going to these papers to find out what's in the paper, because there was just no way of telling it at the time. There you go, Raffa. He broke that story, like so many others. I also think it's fascinating that you have a country with the footballing tradition that England enjoys. There can be that fixated about an opponent and that's about one qualifying game, a middling and absolute terrific performance. But what it says, I think, about the whole... I mean, the World Cup semi-finals this year might be a counterpoint. But it's so true, because I remember, Jonathan Wilson who wrote a book about sort of ten big England performances, and this was very much in it. And I thought, yes, as much as this was a great big England performance, I mean, the idea that Germany would have a qualifying game as one of the top ever performances was just... And then run lightly. ...Burning bits of kit. That is preposterous. But, you know... I think the thing is... They just can't be choosers. The problem is... I saw something actually, I think, maybe today or yesterday, saying about England's problems that they won the World Cup. Yeah. And as a result, everything since has been measured against that, and this kind of collective psyche is that, rightfully, that's what England are, and it's just a kind of weird, ongoing succession of circumstances that denied England that, and so that, like the once-in-future King's forced-to-room kind of incognizant, a bit like arrogant in your Lord of the Rings, waiting for the day when the Crown is restored, and nights like the one in Munich are almost like, I don't know, a glimpse of the Grail. And as such... Samuel Hesky went to minus Morgan and got a result. What are you gonna say? But you know what I mean? That's why it's not some random thing. It's like, ah, it's a glimpse of our manifest destiny at last. The clouds are covered it again, but it shows that this is the true faith. But it wasn't helped the fact that yes, 1966, but then 1990 and 1996, also, you know, so it's like it compounded it. But we won the qualifier, and that's the real quiz. I didn't get that sense of entitlement at the time. I think the expectation that then greeted this generation of players was born on that night, and it carried... Yes, and then carried over into 2004, to 2006, where it really kind of peaked, and everyone fought. Of course, they're going to Germany to win the World Cup. Everyone did their book deals in advance, and it was just a case of who's gonna win the Golden Shoot. The Golden Boot. Right. The Golden Bar and Wags were born in that night in Munich. There you go. Daniel, I know you're standing by to say something. Is it about England's generation? No, I mean, I actually think labelling the World Cup in 1966 is a reason for things going right afterwards, let's England off the hook. England were arrogant way before they won the World Cup. This was a team who in the 50s thought that, you know, Hungary were nothing. This was a team that didn't enter the World Cup, because they thought it was beneath them when it started. This was a nation that basically football was just an extension of its colonial arrogance, and therefore it thought it didn't need to learn anything from anyone at any point. So I don't think winning the World Cup changed that. It was a marker on that journey, and yes, at that point England was very slow to realise that the rest of the world had already caught up, but that had already been happening before 1966, and carried on happening afterwards. England just became another football team at a point when the rest of the country couldn't quite fathom that it wasn't King of the World anymore. But at this point, as Raffa was saying, they weren't just another football team. An extraordinary collection of players. And they did look like they were going to go and claim a reward that matched that level of expertise. Yeah, and this is also, you know, the United players had won in 1999. So I think there was a sense that English football is coming back after years in the Wilderness in the late 80s and early 90s, culminating in not making it to the World Cup in 1994. And suddenly, you know, you had undoubtedly these World Class players. Maybe they were slightly overhyped, which sometimes happens, but I think by any sort of objective standard, they were sensational players. And this was a sensational team that, on their very best, especially when they could play on the break, which I think was always the biggest strength, could really destroy sides. It's when they had to be a bit more measured, intricate, play football themselves, break down teams. That's when I think the lack of attention to detail that was also a hallmark of Sven's management style, which is very much sort of you go out and express yourselves, boys, have fun. That's when it became, I think, more problematic down the line. But this was just fresh-faced, exciting, direct, fast, you could not help but admire this performance in a English team. It did also come relatively close. I mean, I know losing a quarter-final doesn't feel like that, but they came very close against Brazil. The Denmark win in that World Cup is one of those performances that England fans, until recently, certainly until 2018, would have had up there. Maybe it's the best tournament performance they'd seen live, possibly in Netherlands 96, pushes it into second place, but the commanding nature of that knockout win was something that England basically hadn't seen before. All their knockout wins were gritty, determined, getting it done against weaker opponents, against stronger opponents, whoever. The Denmark game was a breakout. The shame then came in the nature of the exit to Brazil with the Bernadini's goal and with the sending off and as Raf said, he then inability to break down Brazil after they decided to stick with what they had. And that did become a theme of, you know, for basically a decade of England struggling to break down deep-line defenses in major tournaments. You mentioned factions earlier, Daniel. Do you think that was part of the issue? I think in terms of the personalities, that became more of an issue in 2006. I think in 2000 by 2002, I think there were the issues more about there was so much, such high representation from such a low number of clubs that tactically, I think England found it hard. So the Manchester United players would, you know, you had Beckham and Neville on the right-hand side and they would be a unit you had. Liverpool in central midfield and with Barby on the left with Gerard, you kind of had. It just felt almost, it almost felt too easy for England that you were like, well, this is just the best of our club game and the Premier League is doing really well at the moment. So it will be easy. It almost allowed that underthink, I think. But the personality wise, I think that became more of a problem in 2004 to 2007. Well, what looked like it might be a transformative night for England didn't really prove to be. So as Daniel was touching on there, the remaining four and three-quarter years of Erickson's time in charge did not see England make the last four of a tournament Germany, though some months after this game did reach the World Cup final, not playing well, but still reaching a World Cup final. Getting past Ukraine and certainly the second leg in some style even was the start of a cycle where this Germany team at least sort of could stuck together and get a result. And there was a sense of cohesion and we'll make the most of our very limited ability with especially Michael Balak coming to the four. The Ukraine second leg is the Michael Balak sort of breakout game for Germany. And that's the main reason why this carried on into the World Cup with him and Khan, taking Germany all the way nearly. Very good. And we should also mention how before the playoff this group ended, which maybe cast a bit of light on maybe these weren't the two giants they once were, because obviously most people remember England's Greece game when Nancy Deva Beckham scored that. Free kick in injury time, but simultaneously in Germany, Germany were drawn near and near with Finland. So the fact that England and Germany both ended that group drawing at home to lesser teams is kind of indicative of yes, the five of one was an amazing game, these weren't like teams at the top of the game. Indeed. Any final thoughts Daniel before we get a quiz answer from Duncan Alexander? No, that's quiz. Let's hear it then, Duncan. So the question again was obviously Owen's got a hat trick in Munich in 2001. He's called the next hat trick for England against Colombia in 2005, but since then, how many different players have scored England and hat trick? Right, now you generously told us that Harry Kane might be one of them. You've seen it as an England player in Germany, so yeah. Harry Kane is one. He's called five. He's called five hat tricks. Yeah. Okay. Post 2005 England hat tricks, Daniel. Name some names. Well, I was at Wendley for England Bulgaria when Jumei Defoe scored a hat trick in a qualifier. I remember that. Correct. I think Raheem Sterling got one. Correct. A kiosaka just scored one. Yep. A kiosaka too, in fact. Okay. There is another is there. There's two more. Oh, Theo Walker in Croatia. Yeah. Qualifying. Raffer. Don't ask me. We've mentioned this player during this part. Skulls Poland. Gerard's got his hand waving. Peter Kraj. Peter Kraj. Peter Kraj. Peter Kraj. We did. We talked about... Yeah. After Hesky. Hesky. Oh, really? Yeah. I may have shown that. You weren't listening because it was me, James. Yeah. Well. There you go. So how many was that then? I lost track. That is one, two, three, four, five, six players. Six players. Yeah. Wow. But at Tournament... No, no, in qualifiers this is all. No, but in a tournament, is it only Kane that's ever done it? Ansaka. Yeah. In that hugely. You know, we've got the night... We've got the World Cup qualifier in Munich. And we've got the third fourth player for the World Cup. In Miami, yeah. In Miami, and... And Daniel's wearing a French shirt. So I find... So... There you go. Well, it's been fun to relive it. And it's been lovely to see you again, Raphael Honeg's though. Yes, to the letter. Yes. Yes, yes, yes. I think I just want to point out... I was in London that night after the game. And in scenes, I guess we saw a little bit when Arsenal won the league and everyone sort of gathered. It had that air of... And I think that just underlined... People took... To the street. Yeah, I remember getting on a bus in Finnsbury Park to go further into town. And the bus driver was just not letting people pay, because everyone was that excited. So... It genuinely was a call your bus. You're not coming in tomorrow. You've earned it. Yeah, a little bit on a Saturday night. But yeah, it was... There was a sense of joy. Your bus maybe. A lot of people work on Sundays, right? There was a sense of joy that... Yeah, you don't see Ralph Dunn. So it was... Really? Yeah, it was a very... It genuinely felt like a transformative moment had come. Yeah, people... Strangers were hugging. Put it that way. Strangers were talking on the London bus. Yeah, exactly. That's how big a... That's how size people are. Yeah. Alrighty. Well... Daniel, lovely stuff. Thank you for being with us. Thank you for digging out your VHS and watching it again. Thank you, lovely to see you. We'll be back with another... Totally extra next week. Don't know what we're going to be doing. If you've got any requests, listener, do let us know via the usual... Mediums. Thanks again, everybody. Thanks to producers Charlie and Jesse and you, listener. We'll catch up with you soon. And the Toadie Football Show. 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