🎙️ The Totally Football Show
•September 26, 2026
•⏱️ 1h 9m
Totally Extra: Zinedine Zidane - is he all that?
🎧 Listen to Original Episode →1. Executive Overview: Core Theses & Key Revelations
The debate surrounding Zinedine Zidane represents one of the most enduring paradoxes in modern sports media. On one hand, Zidane is revered as a transcendent genius whose signature moments—the two headers in the 1998 FIFA World Cup final, the majestic volley against Bayer Leverkusen in the 2002 UEFA Champions League final, and his mesmerizing performance against Brazil in 2006—stand as pinnacles of footballing art. On the other hand, a rigorous examination of his week-in, week-out domestic campaigns reveals a career marked by unexpected lulls, tactical passivity, and extraordinary disciplinary infractions. This collision between aesthetic mythology and empirical reality formed the centerpiece of a memorable episode of The Totally Football Show, titled "Totally Extra: Zinedine Zidane - is he all that?".
Hosted by James Richardson alongside tactical analyst Michael Cox, French football expert Julian Laurens, and sports author Tom Williams, the panel tackled a question that rarely gets voiced in mainstream commentary: Was Zinedine Zidane genuinely as consistent over the length of a 38-game league season as his legendary stature suggests? The episode emerged as a milestone moment in football journalism because it challenged the uncritical deification often granted to elite playmakers of the late 1990s and early 2000s, applying a modernized, analytical lens to a player whose career had largely been protected by romantic nostalgia.
The central narratives established during the broadcast fall into three main pillars:
- The Consistency Deficit Thesis: Formulated by Michael Cox, this position argues that if every performance of Zidane's career were scored objectively out of ten, his overall match-by-match average would fall significantly below that of other historical icons such as Lionel Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo, Michel Platini, or Johan Cruyff. Despite possessing unmatched technical quality, Zidane frequently delivered anonymous performances during lengthy stretches of domestic league play at both Juventus and Real Madrid.
- The Socio-Cultural Shield: Presented by Julian Laurens, this framework explains why French culture and global fans evaluate Zidane through an entirely different lens. As the son of Algerian immigrants hailing from the working-class enclave of La Castellane in Marseille, Zidane embodied social mobility and national identity in a way that transcended athletics. His cultural status as the ultimate French celebrity created an emotional shield that muted analytical criticism of his domestic inconsistency.
- The Enigmatic Dichotomy: Developed by Tom Williams, this psychological portrait highlights the stark contrast between Zidane's profound personal shyness and his capacity for explosive, volatile violence on the pitch. With 14 career red cards—an astonishing tally for an attacking central midfielder—Zidane's career was defined as much by dramatic eruptions as by silent, inscrutable elegance.
Furthermore, the episode contextualized Zidane's career against historical micro-events via James Richardson's classic "Almanac" segment, recalling Jonathan Woodgate's disastrous Real Madrid debut, Massimo Taibi's notorious handling error for Manchester United, and Paolo Di Canio's referee push. Together, these elements established a comprehensive, multifaceted evaluation of how football icons are built, perceived, and analyzed in the modern era.
2. Context & Background: The Landscape Leading to This Conversation
To fully understand the weight of the discussion on The Totally Football Show, one must examine the dramatic shift in football media and performance evaluation over the past two decades. During Zidane's active playing career (1989–2006), football journalism relied predominantly on match reports, television highlights packages, and major tournament narratives. A player who delivered iconic performances in World Cup finals or Champions League knockouts was instantly elevated to immortal status, while quiet performances away at regional league opponents faded quickly from public memory.
However, the emergence of advanced sports analytics, expected metrics (xG, xA), progressive pass tracking, and granular match rating databases transformed how analysts evaluate legacy. In this modernized ecosystem, analysts increasingly value high baseline consistency over isolated peaks. A player who generates consistent underlying output across 38 domestic fixtures often contributes more total expected value to a team's league campaign than a player who alternates between masterclasses and anonymous outings.
Zidane's career unfolded during a unique transitional phase in European football. Moving from Bordeaux to Juventus in 1996, and subsequently to Real Madrid in 2001 for a world-record fee of €77.5 million, Zidane operated at the absolute center of European football's commercial explosion. His move to Real Madrid inaugurated the famous Galácticos era under Florentino Pérez, where individual star power and global marketability were prioritized alongside tactical assembly. Yet, despite playing alongside world-class talents like Ronaldo Nazário, Luís Figo, Raúl, and Roberto Carlos, Zidane's domestic league trophy count remained remarkably modest: two Serie A titles across five years in Turin, and just one La Liga title across five years in Madrid.
Simultaneously, the rise of digital video platforms like YouTube fundamentally reshaped how younger generations encountered retired legends. Ten-minute highlight reels featuring Zidane's pirouettes, velvet chest controls, and feathered soft touches present an image of continuous, flawless mastery. As Julian Laurens noted during the broadcast, modern players and supporters who idolize Zidane often do so through the filtered lens of these highlight compilations, which compress thousands of minutes of football into an uninterrupted stream of genius while completely erasing games where he had minimal impact.
3. Deep-Dive Thematic Breakdown
The Consistency Paradox: 38-Game League Reality vs. Tournament Zenith
The defining argument of the panel—and the primary catalyst for listener debate—was Michael Cox's assertion regarding Zidane's domestic league consistency. Cox, widely recognized for his pioneering work in tactical analysis, introduced a simple thought experiment: if an analyst were to review every official senior appearance of Zidane's career and assign a rating out of ten, his cumulative average would likely rank below almost every other player traditionally admitted into football's pantheon of all-time greats.
This critique does not deny Zidane's ceiling; rather, it highlights the variance between his baseline performance and his peak performance. During international tournaments—most notably Euro 2000, where Zidane delivered arguably the most dominant individual tournament by a midfielder in modern history—his influence was absolute. Similarly, his performance against Brazil in the 2006 World Cup quarter-final remains a masterclass in tempo control and individual dominance. However, across a full 38-match league season, Zidane frequently experienced extended periods where his operational impact waned.
| Career Phase | Club / Country | Key Honours Won | Tactical & Performance Profile |
|---|---|---|---|
| 1992–1996 | Bordeaux | UEFA Intertoto Cup (1995), UEFA Cup Runner-up (1996) | Emerging playmaker; high technical fluidity; inconsistent physical engine in domestic Ligue 1. |
| 1996–2001 | Juventus | Serie A (1996–97, 1997–98), UEFA Champions League Runner-up (1997, 1998) | Operated as advanced midfield conductor behind Inzaghi and Del Piero; frequent European brilliance offset by quiet domestic league stretches. |
| 2001–2006 | Real Madrid | La Liga (2002–03), UEFA Champions League (2001–02) | Left-sided free playmaker in Galácticos system; sublime European knockout goals offset by structural imbalance and domestic league drops. |
| 1994–2006 | France National Team | FIFA World Cup (1998), UEFA European Championship (2000), World Cup Runner-up (2006) | Deity status; decisive performance peak in international tournament knockout football. |
The data from his domestic league campaigns supports this analytical skepticism. In five seasons at Real Madrid, Zidane scored 37 league goals and recorded modest assist totals relative to the team's total goal output. While his primary value lay in ball progression, press resistance, and rhythm management, his teams often struggled to sustain domestic league dominance over 38 games. Real Madrid finished third in 2003–04, second in 2004–05, and second in 2005–06, frequently falling behind Valencia and Barcelona despite boasting an unprecedented collection of individual attacking talent.
The Disciplinary Anomaly: Violence, Red Cards, and the Volatile Number 10
Another major theme dissected by the panel was Zidane's extraordinary disciplinary record. In professional football, attacking playmakers and traditional number 10s rarely collect high volumes of red cards; their positional role keeps them away from defensive tackle situations and reactive tactical fouls. Yet, over the course of his professional career, Zinedine Zidane received 14 red cards—a number comparable to aggressive central defenders or defensive midfielders.
As Julian Laurens emphasized, 14 red cards represents an extraordinary anomaly for an offensive creator. These were not merely double-yellow cards for tactical fouls; many were straight red cards resulting from violent, retaliatory conduct. Prominent examples include:
- 1998 FIFA World Cup (vs. Saudi Arabia): Stomping on Fuad Anwar after a tackle, earning a two-match suspension during France's home tournament.
- 2000–01 UEFA Champions League (vs. Hamburg): Headbutting Jochen Kientz while playing for Juventus, resulting in a multi-match European ban.
- 2006 FIFA World Cup Final (vs. Italy): The world-famous headbutt to the chest of Marco Materazzi in extra time, bringing an abrupt, tragic end to his professional career.
The panel noted that this persistent violent streak was not an accidental byproduct of his play, but an intrinsic component of his competitive psychology. Zidane possessed a fierce, volatile temper that erupted whenever he felt provoked or physically intimidated. Far from diminishing his mystique, however, these violent outbursts paradoxically heightened his mythic appeal, casting him as a complex, anti-heroic figure whose sublime grace coexisted with raw, unpredictable aggression.
Socio-Cultural Deification: Marseille, La Castellane, and French Identity
To understand why Zidane remains practically immune to criticism within France, Julian Laurens provided essential socio-cultural context. Zidane was not merely a successful athlete; he was a cultural phenomenon whose rise mirrored the complex socio-political landscape of late 20th-century France.
Born in Marseille to Algerian parents who immigrated to France before the Algerian War, Zidane grew up in La Castellane, a high-density, economically disadvantaged housing project. His journey from the concrete pitches of Marseille to world champion status resonated deeply across French society. When France won the 1998 World Cup on home soil, Zidane's face was projected onto the Arc de Triomphe, accompanying the iconic chant "Zidane Président!". He became the human face of the "Black-Blanc-Beur" narrative—an ideal of multicultural integration and collective pride.
Laurens pointed out that Zidane became the single most popular celebrity in France, outranking movie stars, musicians, and politicians across all demographic surveys. This unique social positioning meant that French fans and journalists viewed him through a fundamentally protective lens. While an English tactical writer like Michael Cox evaluates Zidane strictly on pressing triggers, progressive pass rates, and match-by-match consistency ratings, French observers view him as a symbol of national dignity and cultural triumph.
The Artistic Enigma: Shyness, Cinema, and the Mogwai Soundtrack
Tom Williams introduced a compelling psychological and artistic dimension to the discussion, dissecting the personality traits that created Zidane's aura of inscrutability. Despite his commanding presence on the field, Zidane was off the pitch an exceptionally introverted, sensitive individual who intensely disliked media appearances and public scrutiny.
Williams highlighted biographical details from Zidane's early development in Cannes, where as a young teenager staying with a host family, he would cry himself to sleep every night due to severe homesickness. Back in Marseille, his father, Smaïl Zidane, worked night shifts as a security guard at a supermarket; young Zinedine would lie awake in bed, waiting anxiously for the sound of his father's key turning in the door to know he was safe. This underlying emotional vulnerability stood in stark contrast to his majestic pitch presence and his periodic outbursts of violence.
This duality made Zidane a fascinating subject for high-culture artistic exploration. Williams highlighted the groundbreaking 2006 documentary film Zidane: A 21st Century Portrait, directed by artists Douglas Gordon and Philippe Parreno. Filmed during a Real Madrid league match against Villarreal at the Santiago Bernabéu Stadium using 17 synchronized motion picture cameras, the movie tracked Zidane continuously for 90 minutes, set to an atmospheric score by Scottish post-rock band Mogwai. The film contains minimal dialogue, focusing almost exclusively on Zidane's movement, breathing, spatial awareness, and silent intensity—culminating fittingly with him getting sent off near the end of the match.
As Williams noted, it is impossible to imagine a film of that artistic nature being made about any other contemporary footballer. The alliance of his personal quietness, aesthetic elegance, and volatile temper created a transcendent mystique that elevated him beyond athletic evaluation into the realm of modern iconography.
Historical Media Narratives: From Espadrilles on Everest to National Glory
The panel also touched upon the fickle nature of sports journalism by revisiting the media landscape preceding France's 1998 World Cup triumph. Tom Williams cited a famous pre-tournament article in the French sports daily L'Équipe, which expressed deep skepticism regarding national team manager Aimé Jacquet. The newspaper famously remarked that expecting Jacquet to lead France to World Cup victory was akin to expecting someone to climb Mount Everest in a pair of espadrilles.
This historical detail underscores the hostility and doubt that surrounded the French national team prior to July 1998. The squad was seen as unconvincing, Jacquet was criticized for excluding star playmakers like Eric Cantona and David Ginola, and the public held low expectations. Yet, Zidane's two headers in the final against Brazil instantly rendered all prior criticism obsolete, establishing a heroic narrative that permanently reshaped French sports history and cemented Zidane's untouchable legacy.
The Almanac Micro-Histories: Woodgate, Taibi, and Di Canio
In accordance with the beloved traditions of The Totally Football Show, host James Richardson anchored the episode with his signature "Almanac" segment, taking listeners through notable historical anniversaries that highlighted football's tragicomic nature:
- Jonathan Woodgate's Real Madrid Debut (September 22, 2005): After signing from Newcastle United in August 2004 for £13.4 million, English defender Jonathan Woodgate spent an entire year sidelined with severe thigh injuries. When he finally made his Real Madrid debut against Athletic Bilbao, he suffered one of the most disastrous debuts in football history: scoring an own goal with a diving header in the first half and receiving two yellow cards for a second-half sending-off. Richardson humorously noted that Woodgate became the first person ever to "do a Jonathan Woodgate."
- Massimo Taibi's "Blind Venetian" Error (September 25, 1999): Italian goalkeeper Massimo Taibi, signed by Sir Alex Ferguson for Manchester United from Venezia for £4.5 million to solve their post-Peter Schmeichel goalkeeping crisis, suffered an infamous blunder against Southampton at Old Trafford. A harmless, slow-moving long-range shot from Matt Le Tissier squirmed directly between Taibi's legs and trickled over the goal line. The performance earned him the newspaper moniker "The Blind Venetian." Shortly thereafter, Taibi conceded five goals against Chelsea at Stamford Bridge and never played for Manchester United again.
- Paolo Di Canio's Referee Push (September 26, 1998): Playing for Sheffield Wednesday against Arsenal, Italian forward Paolo Di Canio received a red card from referee Paul Alcock following a clash with Patrick Vieira. Incensed by the decision, Di Canio pushed Alcock in the chest, causing the referee to stumble backward and fall to the ground in comedic, exaggerated fashion. Di Canio received an 11-match ban and a £10,000 fine. However, his subsequent transfer to West Ham United initiated a remarkable redemption arc, where he later won the FIFA Fair Play Award for stopping play to allow injured Everton goalkeeper Paul Gerrard to receive medical treatment.
4. Speaker Perspectives & Analytical Contrast
The strength of The Totally Football Show lies in its balanced panel dynamic, combining empirical scrutiny, cultural storytelling, biographical depth, and humorous editorial oversight. The Zidane debate showcased how four distinct analytical frameworks can interrogate the same footballing icon from entirely different angles.
Michael Cox operated strictly as the empirical skeptic. Unmoved by romantic nostalgia or aesthetic elegance, Cox evaluated Zidane through the lens of long-term efficiency and game-by-game output. His perspective represents the modern analytical movement, which demands that elite players maintain high statistical floors across domestic league campaigns rather than relying on isolated tournament highlights.
Julian Laurens functioned as the socio-cultural bridge. While conceding the validity of Cox's consistency argument and pointing out Zidane's atrocious disciplinary record, Laurens contextualized Zidane's status within French society. He demonstrated that for French fans, Zidane's legacy is inseparable from his identity as an immigrant success story and national icon, rendering pure statistical analysis secondary to emotional resonance.
Tom Williams provided the biographical and psychological depth. By examining Zidane's childhood anxieties, extreme shyness, and artistic representations, Williams explained how the player's personal mystery amplified his aura. He showed that Zidane's occasional violent outbursts did not destroy his reputation, but instead added dramatic complexity to his public persona.
James Richardson served as the editorial conductor. Through masterful wordplay, sharp dry humor, and historical references, Richardson synthesized the contrasting viewpoints, ensuring the debate remained engaging while anchoring the broadcast with nostalgic almanac anecdotes.
| Panelist | Primary Analytical Lens | Core Thesis on Zidane | Key Evidence Cited |
|---|---|---|---|
| Michael Cox | Empirical & Tactical Realism | Overrated in overall career consistency; game-by-game rating average is lower than other all-time greats. | Anonymous domestic league seasons at Juventus and Real Madrid; reliance on 10-minute highlight compilations. |
| Julian Laurens | Socio-Cultural Contextualism | Iconic national figure whose immense cultural value in France transcends domestic performance metrics. | Immigrant background in Marseille; status as France's top celebrity; 14 career red cards as an attacking playmaker. |
| Tom Williams | Biographical & Psychological Narrative | Mystique built on the tension between extreme introversion, god-given talent, and explosive pitch violence. | Childhood anxiety in Cannes; Mogwai-scored 2006 documentary film; 1998 World Cup Jacquet commentary. |
| James Richardson | Editorial Moderation & Satire | Zidane possesses an angelic aura and otherworldly touch, but his career contains absurd comic contrast. | Almanac micro-histories (Woodgate, Taibi, Di Canio); editorial framing of the "Church of Zidane Truth." |
5. Strategic & Industry Implications
The Zidane debate on The Totally Football Show offers profound implications for the broader sports media landscape, modern football scouting, and player valuation models. As data analytics continues to dominate professional football operations, the tension between quantitative efficiency and qualitative romanticism has become a central strategic challenge for sports organizations.
For modern recruitment departments, the "Zidane Dilemma" highlights the fundamental choice between high-floor, high-consistency performers and high-ceiling, moment-driven match winners. Traditional scouting often prioritized players capable of producing magical moments in big games. However, modern club executives increasingly seek players like Bernardo Silva, Kevin De Bruyne, or Joshua Kimmich—athletes who sustain high statistical metrics week after week, ensuring team stability across a grueling 38-game league calendar.
Furthermore, the discussion illuminates the mechanics of player branding in the digital age. Zidane's enduring commercial power demonstrates that global marketability and legacy are frequently driven by memorable peak events and aesthetic elegance rather than uniform consistency. A player who scores a breathtaking volley in a Champions League final generates far more enduring cultural capital than a midfielder who consistently completes 92% of his passes in routine away victories against mid-table opposition.
For sports media networks like The Athletic, this discussion illustrates the growing audience demand for nuanced, critical analysis of historical figures. Moving away from uncritical hagiography allows media outlets to engage sophisticated fans who appreciate both tactical rigor and narrative storytelling. By validating listener questions about Zidane's domestic consistency while respecting his cultural weight, the panel set a benchmark for modern sports commentary.
6. Looking Ahead: Unresolved Questions & Next Milestones
As football analysis continues to evolve, several key questions remain regarding how future generations will evaluate historical icons like Zinedine Zidane:
- Historical Data Retrofitting: Will the retrofitting of tracking data, advanced metrics, and complete match replays to 1990s and 2000s football validate Michael Cox's consistency thesis, or will it reveal hidden defensive and spatial contributions that traditional stats missed?
- Managerial Legacy vs. Playing Legacy: How does Zidane's managerial career—where he led Real Madrid to three consecutive UEFA Champions League titles (2016, 2017, 2018)—alter his overall standing in football history? Does his success as a manager, characterized by exceptional man-management and big-game tactical flexibility, reinforce his status as an unmatched big-game specialist?
- The Future of International Football Impact: In an era dominated by expanded club competitions (such as the 32-team FIFA Club World Cup and expanded Champions League format), will tournament-based icons like Zidane become increasingly rare as player evaluation shifts almost entirely to high-volume club football output?
Ultimately, the discussion on The Totally Football Show demonstrates that Zinedine Zidane cannot be neatly categorized by a single analytical metric. He remains a glorious contradiction: an introverted boy from Marseille who became France's greatest cultural icon; a balletic playmaker who collected 14 red cards; and a domestic league underperformer who repeatedly delivered the most majestic moments in football history. Evaluating his legacy requires balancing the cold precision of match ratings with the transcendent power of human emotion.
💬 Key Quotes & Speaker Breakdown
Zinedine Zidane legacy
"I think the issue for Zidane was just, did he play consistently well over the course of a season? And I think by and large, he didn't. I think of all the players who are regarded as greats, if you were to rank every Zidane performance out of 10, I expect it would be lower than for any other of the great players in history."
Zinedine Zidane discipline
"Some of the red cards, I think 14 red cards for any player is far too many. But for a number 10, probably even more. So there's clearly a lot of things that were not that great about him in his playing career."
France 1998 World Cup
"There was a headline or a comment in a L'Equipe article that said something like expecting Aime Jacquet to lead this team to victory is like expecting to climb Everest in a pair of espadrilles."
"A lot of people were just waiting for that team to fail. Let's be honest here. At the time, it's very much the feeling where they're not going to do it. They're not going to make it."
Zinedine Zidane cultural impact
"He was the most popular French figure, not just in sports, but in any kind of celebrity, really. And that is very special. And that's why I think we look at him also with different eyes."
Zinedine Zidane persona
"There's no other footballer I don't think who you can imagine a film like that being made about. And I think it was that alliance of the shyness and the inscrutability and this seemingly god-given talent that created this sense of mystique."
Football history/Almanac
"Jonathan Woodgate became the very first person ever to do a Jonathan Woodgate. Having signed for Real Madrid in 2004, but being unable to play for a full year due to injuries, he finally made his Real Madrid debut. Was it worth the wait? Very much so. He scored an own goal and got sent off."
📜 View Full Episode Verbatim Transcript 73,913 characters
The Athletic F-C Totally extra. Today, Zinnid in Zidane, the best control since Joy Division, the most infamous buck since some mix a lot from his beginnings in Marseille, to the glory of his goal in Glasgow, to his blowout in Berlin. We salute Zizu and ask, he's an icon, but was he actually all that good? Totally extra on Zizu. Friday the 25th of September, we've got a brand new totally extra for you featuring Hey Tom Williams. Hello, James Richardson. Hey, Julian LaRose. Bonjour. Bonjour. And hello from Amsterdam, Michael Cox. Hi, James. Hi. Nice to see you all. This is the day that Zinnid in Zidane debuts as France manager and we've gathered together for a very, very special look at the icon. Perhaps the legend, the man who has one listener asked, was he all that? Yeah, big question for us. Big question for us. Here's another listener. Chetel de Vernes says, yes, Cox is in the lineup. Don't gloss over Zinnid in bad and anonymous seasons. The most overrated player of all time. Wow. That's a big shout. Did Michael write this tweet himself? It's true, Michael. You found yourself at the head of a kind of church of Zidane truth as you're like the Greta Tumberg of the culture down. Non-believers. Yeah, I'll take that. I can I say some nice things about him at the start? Yeah. I mean, he was amazingly talented. No question about that. There was a period where he was the best player in the world around Euro 2000. International career, I think, pretty stellar showed up in Euros and World Cups. And the goalie scored in the 2002 Chamsey finals as good a goal as you'll see. I think the issue for the Zidane was just, did he play consistently well over the course of a season? And I think by and large, he didn't. So that is my issue with Zidane. I don't doubt that he looks great in a YouTube compilation of 10 minutes. He looks like the best player ever. But I think of all the players who are regarded as greats. If you were to rank every Zidane performance at a 10, which would obviously take you quite a long time, I expect it would be lower than for any other of the great players in history. That's my view on Zidane from the top. Surely, that's got to be your next piece. I watched every Zidane Zidane performance and rated it out at 10. So anyway, it's the only way we'll know. Yeah. And then do the average and then we'll know, you know, and the average was 5.6 or something. Jules, as a Frenchman, is there an intangible quality about Zidane? What he represents that goes beyond what, say, non-French people might understand? What's your take? Yeah, I think so. But I also agree with Cox in the consistency of, you know, three-zone career, you know, some games in the Champions League bar that finally know too. Some of the red cards, I think 14 red cards for any players is far too many. But for number 10, probably even more. So there's clearly a lot of things that were not that great about him in his playing career. But I still think that in terms of technical ability and pure technical ability. And again, Adele Tarabt had pure technical ability and attempt an alpha as well. I'm not saying that this is just the, the end all of, you know, be all an end all of whatever you say. But I still think that it was pretty incredible on that level. And, and yeah, I think a lot of the current players who who idolize him so much, including his own players right now with France, also grew up watching those halarelda Michael mentioned of 10 minutes where you see all the technical brilliance or genius even that you had. And yeah, if you just watch that, it's pretty pretty impressive, really. But on why he also brought, what, why he meant to us outside of even the performances that he could have had or the workup or the euros and things like that, it's the whole story of immigrants parents, you know, coming to France and him growing up in this super tough council estate in Marseille and just making it to the top and being the, the most popular French figure, not just in sports, but in, in every, any kind of celebrity, really. And that is very special. And that's why I think we, we look at him also with different eyes. Speaking of eyes, I think one of the things about Sudan is that a bit like me for me, Banjo, there was always a slightly mystic kind of otherness to his, his eyes. But he was always, for me, was like the Doctor Spock of soccer, Doctor Spocker, perhaps. Do you know what I mean? He had that slightly from another dimension quality until he lost it and headbutted somebody. Yeah, I mean, I think that's been part of his appeal right from the beginning. There was something very inscrutable about Sudan and particularly at the beginning of his career when he just didn't talk very much, you know, he hated speaking to the media. He's naturally very shy. He's been very open about that, you know, multiple occasions. You know, he's talked about, you know, how sensitive he was as a child. I mean, his father, Schmeil, worked as a security guard at the local casino supermarket. And Sudan used to cry himself to sleep every night, you know, worrying about him being attacked by someone in the supermarket. He used to lie there waiting for the sound of his key in the lock when he went away to Cannes and was staying with a host family for 12 months. He said that he cried himself to sleep every night there because he missed home so much. So he is a quite a sensitive soul and I think people kind of picked up on that. And I think that has just added to the slightly reverential way in which people have tended to talk about him as a footballer. You know, you think about the, the film that was made, you know, soundtrack by Magwai of Sudan, you know, kind of stalking moodly around the burnabout for 90 minutes and then getting sent off right at the end. There's no other footballer I don't think who you can imagine, the film like that being being made about. And I think it was that alliance of the shyness and the inscrutability and this, you know, seemingly god-given talent that created this sense of mystique. And then you add in these eruptions of violence, like really dramatic and very unpleasant violence throughout his career. As Jules says, 14 red cards, you know, the headbutt on Matarazzi was very far from the first time he'd done something like that. And I think that has added to the sort of the mystique and the aura that he has. And it's an aura that remains intact the day when he was presented as France head coach. You had hordes of fans outside in the street, outside the French football federation headquarters desperate for a glimpse or a selfie or whatever. And did he addation for all the the esteem that he's held in in France? He has never, you know, inspired that kind of feeling and very few people in football do. But sedan, he does have that aura. Churches sedan will be stepping through its wide doors a bit more fully very, very shortly. First of all though, let's get our traditional totally extra dip into the Almanac. Currently 25th of September, 2026, what is this weekend football brought us though through the years? Well, taking you back to 22nd of September, 2005, Jonathan Woodgate became the very first person ever to do a Jonathan Woodgate. Having signed for Real Madrid in 2004, but being unable to play for a full year due to injuries, he finally made his Real Madrid debut. Was it worth the weight very much so? It's good and our goal got sent off. He needed to do some things to change the course of the game. And that was blocked from Woodgate. And remember Jonathan Woodgate was already beat booked. Oh dear, dear, dear. And on goal, two yellow cards, his long, long way to play senior football has ended up with Jonathan Woodgate walking the plank. Remember, Jim went under win three one against that. Let's go. Bill Bauer. On the 25th of September, so this very day, in 1999, it was the day of the blonging Venetian. Here's La Chissiae, they haven't had a go, no power. What's the other? That's IEB has made a horrendous error. And La Chissiae has equalized without Hamzae. Yeah, that guy. Massimo Teiibi, who'd been an authentic goalkeeping phenomenon back in Italy, was signed by Manchester United where it didn't really work out too well. The defining image, the ball squirming between his legs in a 3-3 draw from Manchester United, at Old Trafford against Southampton, blind Venetian ran the headline. He'd been signed from Venetian. Hey, here he played once more for Manchester United. Do you know what the score was that day, Michael? I remember they got thrashed at Stanford Bridge. Five nil, indeed. 26th of September, 1998, was Paolo Dicaglio pushing a referee pull all cop after receiving a rig card. First down, left the referee. His career in English football could come to a very sudden end, utterly ridiculous by Dicaglio. And no reason to get involved in that whatsoever. And he pushed the referee over, and I believe his premiership career might well be at an end. The punishment was harsh. 11 match band, a 10,000-pound fine and moved to Westam, where he would later stop playing rather than attempting to score, and was subsequently sainted for it. This was against Everton, of course. Anyway, that's a story for other totally extras. Today, we're all about this man. Zidane is like he has been touched by the angels in his bed when he was a kid, you know, and everything he does is successful. Successful. He was easy to play with. The quality of the ball is not a good ball, but he will look good because of the way that he will touch the ball is the greatest. It's the greatest of all. Goodness gracious. See that comes roll there from Zidane. Oh, and that's a goal. Zidane. Zidane. With the header from the corner. Branson scored first in the World Cup final, and it's Zidane. Hopped into the penalty area towards Zidane. 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scored first in the World Cup final, and he scored first in the World Cup final, and he scored first in the World Cup final, and he scored first in the World Cup final, and he scored first in the World Cup final, and he scored first in the World Cup final, and he scored first in the World Cup final, and he scored first in the World Cup final, and he scored first in the World Cup final, and he scored first in the World Cup final, and he scored first in the World Cup final, and he scored first in the World Cup final, and he scored first in the World Cup final, and he scored first in the World Cup final, and he scored first in the World Cup final, and he scored first in the World Cup final, and he scored first in the World Cup final, and he scored first in the World Cup final, and he scored first in the World Cup final, and he scored first in the World Cup final, and he scored first in the World Cup final, and he scored first in the World Cup final, and he scored first in the World Cup final, and he scored first in the World Cup final, and he scored first in the World Cup final, and he scored first in the World Cup final, and it was only after quite a while that he got moved forward to that number 10 position, and of course that's when his form improved, and of course that's when his form improved, and of course that's when his form improved, and of course that's when his form improved, and of course that's when his form improved, and of course that's when his form improved, and of course that's when his form improved, and of course that's when his form improved, and of course that's when his form improved, and of course that's when his form improved, and of course that's when his form improved, and of course that's when his form improved, and of course that's when his form improved, and of course that's when his form improved, and of course that's when his form improved, and of course that's when his form improved, and of course that's when his form improved, and of course that's when his form improved, but I think he was always a little bit of a deeper player than that. I mean, at this time he was compared a lot to Platini, as in he's the new Platini, and Platini's goal scoring record for the eventist was unbelievable. I mean, I think he scored basically one in two in the peak years of his career, and so down we never really get to that level. I think he was a deeper player, someone who enjoyed dictating the tempo of the game a bit more than making a difference in the final third. So yeah, his first season with the eventist took a while to get going, but it was the second season really when he exploded into a top player, and it helped, of course, that that second season was was leading up to the 98 World Cup. Indeed. So that you've attained by the way, they were a bit special, as well. Puruzi and Goal, we had Chirifarao, Palomontero, in the bat line. A midfield victory, not just Zizu, but also Conte when he was fit, Dishon, Vladimir Yugovic, up front, Boxich, Alan Boxich, the Alessandro del Piero and Christian Vierri and early iteration thereof, they won this good at it that year. They also reached the Champions League final, which brought about one of the other kind of ha ha, vignettes of Zidane's career as he gets marked out of the game by Paul Lambert. Is that a fair summary of that game, Michael? Yeah, that's legit. It's certainly more provable than the Tim Sherwood story. The following season, same again, they win the Scoretto, they get to the Champions League final, they lose this time to Real Madrid. That was the summer of 98, but something better was awaiting for Zizu and all the people of France. This is the Totally Football Show, part of the Athletic FC podcast network. The Athletic is the only place you can read articles by Daniel Taylor, Amy Lawrence, Phil Hey, James P.S., Oligate and the very best football writers around. Jules, summer 1998, a World Cup is looming into view in your home country. How big did that feel to you? What kind of occasion did that feel like to you, as a young Frenchman? Yeah, it was huge. It was really big. I remember the day where it was announced that the World Cup had been awarded to France. We had a big thing at school where they were given like stickers and pins and everybody got really excited and that probably was a good three years earlier, probably about being here and 95 I would think or something like that. And I think the anticipation was big, like every football club was trying to get tickets for some of the kids of their teams to go and watch a game or ever game. I remember we got like a Serbia, Germany, sorry, in loss I think it was. The club I was playing for got tickets for that. So a lot of like 50 others traveled too long to go and see that. We had a couple of games at the start of the France as well. It was amazing. It was really, really amazing because don't forget the workup before that 94 was obviously in the US and with the time difference, I think a lot of people from my generation tried to watch it. But again, it was to be more difficult. Some of the games were really late in the night, et cetera, et cetera. So this was for a lot of us, the first one that you could really, really enjoy it because 94 France was not in the 1990 France were not in the either. So for my generation, it was really the first one, 86, you would not remember. So it was the one that got everybody so excited. I need had a really good team. So how central was Zidane to things? Yeah, it was by then. So we said 96 was not really his time, I think, to shine. Although he had an incredible debut in 94 first cap in Bordeaux. Again, the check comes on. Of course, two goals. That story started really, really well. After that, Jacques was building this team under a lot of criticism, especially between 96 and the start of the 90 year workup. They keep where on the cruiser against Jacques, not liking the defensive mindset that we mentioned earlier. Remember, I mean, Tom would obviously remember the famous headline when Jacques announced the squad for the 1990 year workup that had six extra players. And the keeps from pages, are we playing with, you know, are we playing with 13 players? Because everybody was like, why are you not calling the 22 for the workup? Why did you have, what you have 26, 28, sorry, in the squad? So it was really toxic. The atmosphere between the media, overall, but especially the keep and Jacques and the whole of the French kind of stuff and team. A lot of the players, even to this day, I still haven't forgiven the keep for that kind of campaign, negative campaign leading into the workup. So it was a bit of a weird atmosphere going into, but everybody was pretty clear that, okay, defensively, you could win the workup with that incredible defense. And that back five of Barters in goal to ram a right back. Lizard Azul left back and then blonde the saïe. I think when like 46 games and beaten, for example, through their own international career, you just could not score against them. You could not beat them. But yet, we have everybody knew that you need something to be special from Zidane or again, from a Jockeye type to still take this team to win in the workup because he still felt at the start, despite being at home, despite having this great generation, he still felt a little bit far away to go and win and beating all those great other teams. Was he already the symbol in terms of the kind of cross-cultural makeup of the squad, which was such a big deal at the time? Was he already the symbol of that? No, not yet. No, at the start of it. It's really the final that made it and the fact that they won it. At this time, it's very much, they're not a good team. Jockeye is a rubbish coach. They're not going to make it here. You know, and at the time, already with Le Pen and the right extreme right and the front national, we're just going stronger and stronger and stronger. A lot of people were just waiting for that team to fail. Let's be honest here. I mean, I'm sure Tom would agree, but at the time, it's very much the feeling where they're not going to do it. They're not going to make it. It's not going to be great. A few of the friendlies before had been really laborious, so they didn't really look that ready, and I think there was a lot of people just waiting for them to fail to even go more after them. Yeah, I mean, there was a headline or a comment in a Le Keeb article that said something like expecting M.A. Jockeye to lead this team to victory is like expecting to climb Everest in a pair of Espadrilles. They were booed at times in some of those matches. I mean, happily, they had quite a kind group stage draw, you know, very quickly got people on board. But yeah, the prevailing mood going into the tournament wasn't in terms of what the team was likely to achieve on the pitch, wasn't enormously optimistic. Michael, when did they become good then, and how important was Zidane in that? Well, he had a funny tournament, because in the second group game, he got sent off for Stampy on a Saudi Arabia plate. Oh, there's a yellow card coming up here and Zidane, oh, it's Zidane and that is, is that red? The referee appears to be sending him off. Is that for the stamp with the right foot? What a sensation here. 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