The Anatomy of an Implosion: Unai Emery, Tactical Shifts, and the Birth of Villa 2.0

Hello and welcome to the TFO football podcast. I'm Joe Devine and today I'm delighted to be joined by John Mackenzie. Hello. All right. I elongated your name there because you were mid-drinking. Hi. Why would you think that would be a good opportunity for you to drink like that time? We're just finished recording and I wanted to take a vlog and then you just jump straight in with... Oh, I know. I should have a drink of my drink at the exact same time that he says my name every the three times a week. Right. Anyway, welcome to Ring for Analysis. It's our special audio only audio-exclusive episode of the TFO football podcast. Here's how it works. I read an article that was published by the Athletic and John rings a little bell that sounds like this when he wants me to pause so that he can offer some analysis. And today's article was as follows why Eston Villa imploded on the opening weekend, one real issue and a lot of instability. This was by Jacob Tanswell. Now, John, what did we talk about on today's show? We talked about Eston Villa a lot, which was fun. We don't talk about Villa that much. I feel like we haven't for a while. Well, the whole episode apart from that bit in the middle where we talked about the film silence and Christian missionaries. The whole rest of it was about Villa. Yeah. And we were talking about this concept of whether or not we're entering a new era of Unai Emery. Yeah. Lots of change going on at Villa. Lots of players leaving. Lots of players coming in. And then obviously all of this tied up with that bow of a terrible first game performance from them where they lost to a nail against Brighton. Very bad. So yeah, basically asking the question like what should we make of Villa this season? Indeed, we do ask that question. We also talk about Unai Emery's press conferences so far. His use of the word silence. That's my favorite bit. And then beyond that, oh, at the towards the end of the episode, we get to the athletics hopometer. And we find that actually about 10 days ago, Villa fans were the second most excited or optimistic about their season of all teams. So we talk about that too. And there's a few pop quizzes along the way for you to keep you on your toes. A couple of pop quizzes. You threw in a very nice promotion of my movies. You forgot pop charts. I'll just do a second one now. You know, so get to that bit. And that was it. That's probably you were struggled to read a few words. No, that was all cut out, John. Anyway, it better have been cut out, produce a poll. Right, there we go. That's it. So after this little bit of music, we shall begin proceedings. Okay, as a reminder, John the title is as follows, why Aston Villa imploded on the opening weekend, one, quote, real issue, and a lot of instability. Now, this piece was written by Jacob Tanswell, and it begins as follows. On the eve of the season, John McGinn encouraged Aston Villa supporters to stay calm and believe. I nearly read behave then. That would be a funny thing to say for John McGinn. Stay calm and behave. Behave yourselves. No, one of energy, isn't it? Very much so. It's the kind of thing I feel like John McGinn could get away with saying, though. The message felt pointed. Calmness was what was needed, but it was completely lacking on the opening day. Understandably so, the bliss of Istanbul, where players and supporters danced into the early hours of securing the Europa League in May, has been broken up belligerently by a summer of significant change. McGinn, who had called this season a new villa, represented a point of stability as change swelled around him. The poise McGinn wanted to bring evaporated rapidly inside a little over half an hour of the new Premier League season. A calamitous start left them 4-0 down at Brighton and Hove Albion soon to be reduced to 10 men. McGinn had been booked. Unai Emery was scrapping with Fabian Herzeler and his staff. Joralgomas, the summer signing, was flying furiously into challenges, predictably he was sent off for violent conduct. Villa became only the second team in Premier League history to concede four goals, receive a red card and score an own goal in the first half of a match. Emery and McGinn aside, this is a deeply unstable villa squad right now, and that instability is behind an opening day to forget. Dinkus. It's our first to Dinkus of the season, John. And it comes at a pretty significant time. As far as intros go, I rate this highly. I very much enjoy how Jacob Tanswell has done this. It really sets the scenes and the stakes. And also, in some ways, it's kind of hard to capture how crazy that game was, but Jacob does a good job. You watched that game, didn't you? And you enjoyed it. I watched it, but partly because I thought it could be interesting, partly because I thought, you know, others of us might be watching the Manchester City game that was happening at the same time, and so I would spread for podcast purposes. But after three minutes, I think it was clear that this was definitely the correct decision. And maybe we'll talk about this a bit more, but I also thought the most interesting thing about this game was that in the first, maybe eight or nine minutes, Aston Villa were amazing, and they did to Brighton, what Brighton then did to them for the rest of the game. So it was, I think, 4-0 and 10 men. It tells a certain story if you didn't watch the game, and there are obviously very bad elements of the game for Aston Villa. Yeah, and the first goal, which came, I don't know, in the first 10 minutes, was it Pao Torres passing the ball to his goalkeeper and getting intercepted by Jack Hinchelwood, who then scored, and then that sort of changed the... It changed the game completely. After the point where Villa already had a very good opportunity before that as well. So it definitely could have been different, but it wasn't. Anyway, Dinkus, Dinkus, Dinkus, Dinkus. Right, picking up after the Dinkus. In many ways, the Europa League final was the crescendo and also the end for the first Emory era. Oh, yes, John, you're ringing already. Oh, yeah, I mean, I haven't rung in the intro yet. No, that's true. But then we had a sort of self-imposed conversation, which now makes it look like I'm jumping straight in. No, the Dinkus paused us. That wasn't you. Oh, yeah, just thought this was kind of interesting. Jacob angling, this is like the end of the first period of Emory, the Emory era, Emory 1.0, and now we're entering a new era. Yeah. It's early to call it, but I like the confidence. I mean, I guess it's hung off this idea that he arrived at the club and sort of took them up the table and three years ago. Yeah, I think so, maybe four. I'll check. And they sort of have tied it off with a bow with the Europa League title, which is kind of quite a nice way of periodizing it. But the concept of periodization, I think, in history is always quite an interesting one. Four years. And yeah, obviously, you hang it off the sort of narrative moment. So, I guess I'm kind of interested to see whether or not, well, whether or not we think that there will be a clear cut from this point onwards. And then we consciously think in the future of, oh, yeah, that was around the period when this was like a different side. You mean a bit like the way we talk about Mick Latetta arsonal, there's the era where he bought all the man-city players, and then there's the era after that where he moved away from it. And then there's the winners era, and then there's the era where they missed out on all the players they wanted to sign. And it was really funny that era. Yeah, I'm quite impressed at how you've brought that energy to this podcast. Well, you know, Arterta has to get it. And we recorded another show earlier today, and he didn't get it in any way. So, no, that's just a bit of a leftover from the first day show. But no, I know what you mean. So, he's been the four years. It culminates in a Europa League trophy. This summer also, you know, a number of players leave. The squad doesn't necessarily resemble anything like what it did when he first first arrived. Yeah. I think it's a fair shout to assume that this is a new era. I think so too. I'm just kind of interested to see what it looks like. And obviously, you know, whenever we're doing historical narratives, I've just written a book which is largely historical. And so I've been thinking about these topics a lot. Obviously, history has a funny way of being like way more complicated than we like to paint it when we're writing the history. But I'm kind of interested to see whether or not this does actually function as quite a nice clean break in a sort of first and second era for, you know, an era. It happens a lot in philosophy, right? You have a lot of, they have this concept of carer, which is the German word for turn. So you'll have philosophers get to a certain point and then they're like, and then they change direction a little bit in their philosophical approach, change. So there's quite a few, so high-digger, for example, has a famous carer turning point where it before and after his philosophy is quite different. So I wonder whether or not we'll see. Again, do we see like a conscious difference between Emory's villa from here on in, just on the basis of having different players, when actually a lot of the time his villa's so far in those four years has looked quite tactically similar. Yeah, I mean, I guess, you know, does he reflect the matter? Does he think actually that I need to make changes to my approach if we'd continue to be successful? You're making it sound a little bit like the footballing team equivalent of when your mates turn 40 and start voting for centre-right parties. Yeah, I do think the interest that I have is like, we've got kids. We've paid too much tax now. The middle class is getting squeezed out. But we'll talk about Emory more in the rest of the episode because I do want to touch on the tactical aspect because in many respects, he's quite unique from a tactical point of view and it almost a lot of the time I've sort of been caught out by Emory because his tactics feel outdated and they feel not necessarily like instinctively like they're going to be functional in the modern era and yet they consistently seem to come through, culminating in last season where it felt for me at least that they were, they were basically a mid-table side who managed to get Champions League football in some way. So whether or not he just thinks that there's no issue there and it's fine and he can keep going and it will continue at this level and you know, there's nothing to suggest that it won't, like why would it? Or whether or he thinks, oh, you know, the game has shifted now. I'm going to, the game has become so physical and a lot of the things that I do don't actually really reflect the way that the game has gone so we will have to make tactical changes. That remains to be seen, I think. Well, maybe we'll find out in the article maybe. Let's see. I've read the article so we don't find out. Well, I mean, we don't spoil it, but all right, I'm picking up from, let me tell you what, let me read that first sentence again after the dinkert. Sorry for interrupting. No, no, and that's the whole format. It'd be a shame if you didn't. In many ways, the Europa League final was the crescendo and also the end for the first Emory era. The mountain had been climbed. There might have been no more petrol in the tank, had Villa continue to maintain the same core. Villa, now I think I'm just interrupting myself. I wonder if that's a reference to getting lucky from shooting outside of the box, you know. Villa, maybe not. Villa knew that they had to rejuvenate this summer, yet as Emory admitted on Friday, not to this extent. On Friday, the athletic asked Emory, now it's worth, is it worth me saying that this article was published on August the 24th, depending on where people are listening. So the Friday refers to about five days before. On Friday, the athletic asked Emory how much change is too much. In a retort that lasted nearly two minutes, the Spaniard said the word worried 15 times. In fairness, he was using it to say he's always concerned and that it is natural as a manager to feel that way. Undeniably, however, worried is the mood. Do you think that Villa fans should be worried? No, I wouldn't say so. I mean, on the basis of the, it's very hard to not watch a 4-0 loss on opening day when your team has been gutted over the summer to a team like Brighton and they were so good and you were so, you know, open and not be worried. I do get that. But nothing about that performance made me think, well, not nothing, some things, but not everything about the performance made me think that there was, you know, huge cause for concern. Also, I think the problems are obvious, right? And I feel as though they are, you know, they're mendable. And if not, then they'll replace Emory. They'll get another manager and they'll still be a massive team. I mean, you know, well, I don't know what there is to be that worried about. Do you think they should be? No, I mean, I just think it's an interesting topic, like the concept of like worry, because the way that I look at this season, even despite the results on opening weekend, is that no one, you know, the promoted sides are still overwhelmingly the favourites to go down at the end of the season. And they also had a huge number of injuries as well, right? Like they weren't the team that they started, isn't that close to the first time you would expect them to have most of the season. And then we're going to talk about a lot of transfer activity surrounding Villa going forward in this episode. And they also started quite badly last season. I think they took, was it five games to even score a goal or something at the beginning of last season. So, that I think there probably is a tendency for this Villa side to be a little bit under Emory to be a little bit of a slow starter, whether or not like they're going to hit the same heights that they hit last season. And like I said, if you look at the, if you look at the underlying numbers, and I hate talking about the underlying numbers surrounding Villa, because it gives the Villa fans something to sort of deflect away from what you're saying, because they can say, well, you know, you're always banging on about the numbers. And yet we can continually are getting like Champions League football. The reason why I bang on about the numbers is because when I was watching Villa, I was like, this feels like a team who are mid-table and the numbers seem to back that one up. Right. So, and I guess what prompted me to ask this question about worry is like, because Villa have been there and thereabouts in terms of like finishing around the Champions League spots. And there's been this tendency, right, where when they're in the Champions League, they finish outside the spots. And when they aren't in the Champions League, they finish in the spots, right, which I guess talks of a club where they're sort of on the cusp of like joining the big six. They don't have the squad depth to be able to compete on various fronts. Yeah. If this team finished mid-table and I understand I think have them like 12th in terms of expected points last season, for example, roughly, like whatever you, I don't, I'm not a great fan of like expected points as a metric in general, but like it does suggest that finishing whatever they finish fourth in the league last season was was maybe a bit of an overperformance. If they regress to that level this season, would that cause worry for the Villa fans? It's a sort of weird question, right, because you're not even really talking about necessarily a fall off in terms of their performance levels. You're just saying they sort of regress back to where their performance level should be. Would that be cause for concern for Villa fans? Would they would they be like, oh no, we've really stacked it here? I don't think it would either. I'm not so sure that it would and also it's worth like, couching it in the financial context as well, right, because they've come, they came up heavily against PSR for the last few windows that's restricted their movement in a way that it hasn't necessarily restricted the movement of clubs around them for, you know, a litany of different reasons. I'm not complaining about it or, you know, I'm not using it as an excuse. It's context, right? It's context. And look at, you know, as I said, like looking at the starting 11 that they played against Brighton, they started with Emmy Buendi up front. I think Sky thought it was going to be Ross Barkley up front for a while, like either one of those, not entirely ideal. I think at the name of their new exciting 16, 17-year-old striker that they were, you know, played in some friendlies during the summer who's injured at the moment. Oh, magio, yeah. Yeah, magio, who, you know, everyone predicts to have a huge future. He was unavailable for the game. They started Hemings on the left wing, who I don't know if it was a debut or if he, you know, he's I think it was a senior senior debut, 19, 19 years old, senior competitive debut, senior competitive debut. Jacques Gomez, we mentioned already had had his debut and was definitely, it was definitely one of the worst I've ever seen. That's, you know, very unfortunate, but fairly extreme. And you would expect that, you know, on the basis of players that you think will be brought back into the squad at some point. And as you said, we're going to talk about transfers. I just don't think, I don't, I mean, as you said, like, what would be worry? They're not going to get relegated. Yeah. They're worried they're not going to finish in the top five. Then, yeah, you should worry. Yeah. But like, I don't think fans actually are. And I think I also think he wants to, he wants to achieve as high as possible. And so for him to use the word worrying, I think he's fine. It's a different context because he, he will have his own targets. But no, I mean, I think it's fine, isn't it? It's weird as well, right? Because we do have like the evident, again, it's a small sample size, but it's like four seasons. And it's like when they've been in the Champions League, they've finished outside of the Champions League spots. And when they've not been in them, and they've finished in the Champions League spots. And it's kind of like, well, now they're in the Champions League. If they finished outside the Champions League spots, it's like, it's happened twice before. Like, surely, surely, I mean, yeah, maybe you worry about progress. But it's like, I don't think it'll be enough for them to be like, okay, we've got to really tear up the whole project here. I wouldn't say so. Yeah. So I crack on. Crack on. I will also, actually, before I crack on though, I do want to say all this talk about Emory using the word worried, the word that I enjoyed Emory using over the weekend, much more with silence. Yeah, this gets mentioned later on. Does it get me? Okay, I'll save it. I'll save it. Yeah, nice. All but one member of the spine of the team who started against Freiburg in May was absent. Oh, yes, John. Do you want a little pop quiz? Oh, my God. Yeah, okay. Let's try. Yeah. So this is, yeah, the starting 11 from the Freiburg game in May with me. You're open. Ollie Watkins did not wait. Yeah, did start. Sorry. Did start the wrong one. Yeah, he was at the number nine. Bailey? But Bailey didn't, didn't play. Bailey didn't play. Okay. Well, obviously, so assume that means John McGinn didn't start. John McGinn did start. John McGinn did start. Yeah, he started on the right. Okay. So he was the, he's the one. He's the, no, the spot. I think when he says only one member of the spine is like in the central spot. So how Torres was the center back. Yeah, he started in both of those games. Um, that fella Morgan Rogers. Yeah, he started behind Watkins. Yeah. Okay. Um, beyond that, Emil Heskey. And why reaching too far back. Yeah. Emil Heskey retired. I think before that game. Okay. Yeah. Kurt Zoomer played for West Ham. Those are different. That's the same colors. You know, the goalkeeper. Emil Martinez. Emil Martinez started in goal. Okay. And then they, they started, well, you know, Pat Torres is one of the center backs. The center back just went to Arsenal. Oh, concert, of course. And then you're, you've got a concert already. Yeah, exactly. Um, right, a right back who is Polish, but has an English name. Yeah. And then a French Lecastini. Lecastini. He's got a PSG. And then where's cash gone? Is it unused? It's still there. Okay. Um, he's not in the spine of the team apparently because that's through the middle. That's through the middle of the spine. Well, one of their midfielders was actually, is actually more of a center back. In fact, both of the two midfielders. Oh, Lindelof. Lindelof. Yeah. And, and the other one is another Manchester United adjacent player. Very adjacent now because he plays for them. Oh, you're a Telemann. Oh, God, they have been gutted, haven't they? Yeah. And then on the left wing, the only other player is Emil Wendier, right, who is obviously still there. But yeah, of the players in the center, uh, in, in this game. So they had B-Zoing, B-Zoing goal. Yeah. Lindelof played as a center back. Um, uh, Boobakar Camaro played with Zorao Gomes, who's a new player. Ollie, uh, sorry, Ollie Barkley. Is that his name? Ross Barkley. Ross Barkley. Well, I think Ollie Barkley is a rugby player, I think. That is weird. Um, and then they played Wendier up front in that one. So a very different setup from what they ended up playing. Ollie Barkley, former England English rugby union player. Now, let's find out about this man a little bit. Oh, he was born in 1981. Which private school did he go to? He's very former, uh, well, professional career, early career. He was born in Hammersmith, London, raised in Wade Bridge Cornwall. Oh, wow. He was educated at Wade Bridge School, which does have its own, uh, now let's read about Wade Bridge School. Wade Bridge School, a co-educational secondary school with Academy status. Okay. So no, so no, uh, and that's in the town of Wade Bridge in Cornwall. Uh, the acting head teachers are Steve Simmons and Kate Goodwin. Oh, great. No, they sound like BBC sport presenters. They come on. Steve Simmons and Kate Goodwin, 100% of, of, of hosted match of the day at some point. Uh, just looking at their A level result. Anyway, uh, where am I? Yes, okay. I'm reading about Ashton Villa, aren't I? So yeah, we, we've demonstrated how different the Villa team was. Yeah. Starting the season, the what to the one that ended last season. That's what we demonstrated. We did. Okay, fine. Using facts and logic. And, and I picked up because I was saying all but one member of the spine of the team who started against Robert Williams, that's okay. And that is Pow Torres. Right. Pow Torres had a Torrid afternoon, though. Oh, it was something very loud. It was dropped outside. Pow Torres had a Torrid afternoon, though, giving the ball back to Maxim DeCoyper for Brighton's first goal. And in essence, ending the match as a contest. Oh, I said Jack Hinsley would before. It's obviously wrong, so. Well, that's okay, because I was going to pause myself here to say Maxim DeCoyper, DeCoyper, is the name that I know is said differently to the way that it's spelled, but then I always say it the way that it's spelled thinking that that's the clever way before I realized, no, it's DeCoyper, isn't it? DeCoyper. I think so, yeah. Maxim DeCoyper. Whereas I say DeCoyper. It's like low country, so it's going to be completely pronounced differently. Maxim DeCoyper. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, fine. If you're pronouncing it, you're pronouncing it wrong, basically. Okay, got it, understood. That's what the Dutch people tell me about Fonda Fenn as well, but I don't believe them. I don't know. I agree with them. Who's a bit of a disturbing quality in the way you pronounce their name? Elsewhere, Emiliano. Goddamn it. Emiliano. No, we're going to have to leave that one in. Elsewhere, Emiliano Martinez has spent a second successive summer asking to leave. And actually, we should interrupt ourselves again at this point. We won't keep doing this. Listeners don't worry, but we're interrupt ourselves at this point to say that today it's and this is about a week after the article was published. It seems a lot like he might move to Chelsea, but we don't know that hasn't been confirmed. So he is a second successive summer asking to leave. When his wish was granted, the move to Juventus fell away, with Villa preemptively having sought his replacement in Cyan Suzuki. It has left Martinez training on his own, partly because he only returned to training last Tuesday and partly because Villa are helping him find another club. Leon Bailey, another long-standing player, is training on his own too. In defense, as Reconcert said his farewells to team mates on Wednesday morning before joining Arsenal, in midfield, Yuri Telemann's went to Manchester United, Amadou O'nana is out with an anterior cruciament ligament injury. Cruciament, I said, what do you think that is in the body? The anterior cruciament is in the neck or something. It's not like a bakery product, doesn't it? Cruciament. It does. Anyway, I meant to say the anterior cruciate ligament injury. Gomez, Telemann's replacement, had recovered from a carf issue ahead of schedule, and as a consequence of Villa's lack of numbers, came straight into the starting 11. In the number 10 role, Morgan Rogers was the anticipated exit, and Villa fetched £117 million from Chelsea. Yes, John? He has mentioned later on, but I thought it would be good to mention Johan Manzambi at this point. Manzambi was actually playing on the other team for that Europa League final. He's playing for Freiburg. He is now going to be functionally replacing Morgan Rogers when he returns from injury. Nicholas Jackson is going to replace Ollie Watkins. We know today. There's plenty of things that are going to come up. After we talk about Watkins, I've just got a few of the transfer rumors that are coming through there. Plenty of business being done by Villa, but yeah, obviously the turnover is crazy in terms of how many players they're having to sort of move around. Yeah, for sure. Well, picking up here on that point, the final player in this thread is Striker Ollie Watkins, who in theory should be available. Last week, however, Watkins made clear he wanted to leave and join Al Hilal. It was a response to Villa rejecting four offers from the Saudi pro league side. Emory called the situation a real issue. Villa have offered Watkins a lucrative contract extension until 2030, and believe it's a very good deal for someone his age. But presently, Watkins' mind is set on Saudi, and he was absent from the squad for the Brighton game. The 30-year-old had not trained with the squad in recent days. Yes, hon. I mean, I've got nothing here but speculation, but it does seem like an interesting decision for him to reject a contract offer from Villa to go to Saudi. I presume it's like there's probably financial reasons for why that would be good. I would have thought so. But I also kind of wondered, if you're in Ollie Watkins' position, and you can see all of these young, you know, they've been linked with Nicholas Jackson, and there's someone else, I guess Brian Maggio is coming through as well. So I guess if you were someone like Watkins, and you're thinking, I'm coming to the end of my career, take a nice financial wedge and then go and play regularly in Saudi. I guess it makes a degree of sense, right? I think so. I mean, obviously, you know, whenever you talk about football as wages, people get very upset because, you know, even the lower-play players and the Premier League are earning a lot of money relative to what some people earn. So talking about this in context and taking it with a pinch of salt, I would imagine, given that Ollie Watkins peeks a little bit later in his career, came to, you know, more international prominence in the last three years, maybe. And presumably, like, as a part of Avune and Imeris Aston Villa, who's been very helped by that situation, scoring that goal for England, and then ultimately last year, maybe having the opportunity to go to Arsenal, not quite working, right? There were other Premier League options for him. I think given that he didn't, you know, necessarily get that opportunity or wasn't able to take it for whatever reason, maybe he didn't want to, I think I completely understand the move. And I think also, like, relative to people who he now might consider his peers in terms of his quality and what he's been able to offer a Premier League team like Aston Villa, who have Champions League experience and, you know, have Champions League ambition, he probably isn't earning as much at Villa as people who he would consider his equal elsewhere. I know that, like, saying, oh, he's only going for the money. It's like, it's a really common criticism. I don't understand why. Whether or not I would make the same decision or whatever, like, moral, ethical value judgment I place on the decision to move somewhere like Saudi Arabia, I do not, for a second, begrudge someone like Ollie Watkins going there to make more money. I completely understand why someone would make that decision. And I think it's more than enough reason to make it. It's not some kind of disloyalty or it's not, you know, I don't know. And I think most Villa fans would probably understand that as well. Yeah, I think so. It's been an incredible servant. Yeah. And the other name I was thinking was Raffa Liao, who they've been linked with, although again, it seems as though he might be heading to Galatasaray. We don't know at this point, but we don't know anything. I do think coming back to what you were saying, I think it's, we have a weird attitude to footballers in terms of like the decisions they should make. On the one hand, like, footballers are in weird situation, right? Because on the one hand, they're kind of like workers, right? They're one of the few sets of workers who are in control of their, like, labor in a way that most workers aren't. And we bemoan it when most labor markets aren't in control of their own, like, worth of value and they get, and they sort of get hollowed out, their wages and their salaries. Footballers are in a very rare position where they actually are largely in control of that, to an extent. To an extent. In some cases, less than we are in some cases. Yeah. Right. Exactly. At least there's no question about their value of their, you know, they were able to fetch a decent wage. Obviously, the thing that a footballer can do to really ramp up their wage earnings is to let their contracts run out. And yet we have this, this sort of, I think as fans, we have this sort of gut feeling of like, oh, you should be loyal to the club and not let them get a fee for you. Yeah, right. When really it seems to me that on one hand, yet you want the player to stay at your club forever. But at the same time, I kind of feel like why do more players not just run their contracts down and then take the majority of the value from their fee that potentially would be there if they had contract years left and then turn it into salary for themselves. And yeah, I just kind of find it a little bit uncomfortable because I sort of feel as though we should be celebrating now. We should be celebrating. A player doesn't have any responsibility to to play for a club. Sure. Much as we may like them and want them to play for our club. Yeah. And as a result, it feels as though players almost often get kind of bullied into making like worse financial decisions off the basis of the fact that we think that they have this sort of, they should have this sort of sense of loyalty or I guess it's confusing because it's sort of like workers versus workers or whatever. And that's right. But I don't know, I just thought I'd throw that out there because I think, you know, like you said, it's fair enough for someone who has accrued that amount of value to be to accept that value and say, I'm going to cash in on this value. I'm, he's towards the end of his career. He's perfectly entitled to take a big paycheck and to guarantee that he's got that there for the rest of his life, which he's got to live outside of the context of football. I mean, maybe he'll do something in the game, but like the potential here is for him to stop working at 35. Yeah. And, and have to make those earnings make do for the rest of his life. So, yeah, I don't know. That's maybe just a bit of moralizing from me there. Silence. Silence. No, I'm just kidding. That's the beginning of the next bit, John. I actually wanted to stop you there on silence. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let me read it properly. So that, so that producer ball can put some music underneath that silence. Okay. Now you can interrupt silence. Obviously the name of a film by Martin Scorsese. Oh, of course, which is based on I forgot about that film. Yeah. Yeah. Portuguese priests going to Japan. Yeah. Have you watched it? Yeah. It's very long. It's got Andrew Garfield in it. It's a little punishing. No pun intended. Liam Neeson. It's got Liam Neeson. Well, so Liam Neeson plays this Portuguese priest who's famous for trying, for being in Japan, trying to convert people to Christianity at a time in Japan where it's very insular and the government, the authorities don't want that. So they're coming down very hard on Christian, what do you call them, evangelists or missionaries? Yeah, missionaries and also the converse as well. Anyway, Andrew Garfield and Adam Drive are I think it is. They sort of go on a mission to Japan to try and find Liam Neeson and convert a couple of Christians along the way. Bing, Bing, Bing, we've got this whole village. We've got that. Oh, no, they killed the whole village because of what we did. That's sort of thing. And yeah, and it raises a lot of moral questions about the idea of proselytization, right? Like going into a culture and converting people and then, as you say, a lot of those people then get killed for it. Right. And you kind of think, well, we're the baddies, yeah, I guess you get that moment there. Have you not, you should watch it. I've read the book. Oh, you've read the book, right? But I've seen a few clips doing around on social media recently. I don't know why, but I don't know if you've seen that scene where the two guys are on the crosses and they're in the, well, I mean, you've watched the film. I've seen the film. But it's that scene where they're in the scene on the crosses and then they slowly, you know, drown. Like I said, it's a bit of a punishing film. Yeah, it's punishing film. It's not for the lighthearted. No, I would encourage you to watch silence. Presumably, did it win an Oscar or something? Did it win anything? I don't think it did. Let me just check. Is that two, is that two serious to win an Oscar? I don't think it was hugely well critically received. Yeah, but it seems to be making a comeback. 2016 film, right? I believe. I, so I think as I haven't seen it on my social media feeds and I wonder if it's one of those situations where you've been watching all weird religious stuff and you love your theology. But I think I saw it actually on Twitter. So it will have been retweeted onto my timeline by someone, but there seems to be like a movement people being like, oh, this film was not critically acclaimed, but this is like an incredible scene and you should really go watch it. And I really should go and watch it and I'm probably going to go and watch it this weekend. So if the Academy Awards, it was, did it win? It was nominated? No, we didn't win. It was nominated for best cinematography, but that was a bit of a naff. That's like, oh, the movie looks good, you know, and that's going to be a good thing. And that's going to be a good thing, like, Japan and like, nice scenery. Well, this is the thing. And also, it's also, you know, with the Oscars, what you have to do is you have to look at the combination of things that it was nominated for. So if it's just nominated for cinematography and nothing else, the shorthand for that is like, wasn't a very good film, but it looks great. And it should, we probably should recognize it because it's Scorsese. Yeah, exactly, exactly. My favorite of these is that if you come across a film that has a best supporting or supporting actor or actress nomination and no other nominations, it's a shit film with one good acting performance in. And usually it's like a vehicle for that person. Skip, I skipped those movies almost every year, you know, never watch them, never watch them. But no, it's worth watching. I would say it's worth watching. I think I will. This weekend, I've got a few few days off, so I might do that. And we should remind the listeners that you have a film podcast as well. Oh, that's true. I do. I forgot. I forgot about that. It's called the movies you forgot you forgot you forgot you forgot you forgot. That is true. It's all about films and forgetting films. I think it's very enjoyable because I'm not a film person, but I often listen to it. Right. I, yeah, I think there's a few interesting things. I'm in, obviously, I'm going on a tangent here, but I listen to one the other day and I thought it was you have great coherence. That's not the right chemistry. Chemistry with your mouth co-host. My co-host Adam Richmond. Adam Richmond. Adam Richmond. This is me. Not the man versus food. Adam Richmond. Not him. Not him. Not him. I'm much angry. But I also think like just the way you talk about films is interesting because you talk, you obviously talk about the, the sort of qualities of film and the production values, etc. But also sort of like fitting them within their cultural moment. I find that one really interesting. I like that too. One of our favorite things to do is to decide whether it mattered that the film was pre or post 9-11. Adam teases me for bringing that up, but it's sometimes it's very relevant. Yeah. And again, like the cultural aspects of these things matter. The context within which a film is made is just as important. Very much so. Listen, silence never would have been made before Jesus. That's true. It just wouldn't have made any sense. It can't argue with that one. But anyway, yeah, that felt like a really nicely segue kind of like plug for something that it wasn't intended to be, but there we are. Thanks. Thanks anyway. Yeah, you're welcome. Right, here we go. I'll pick up again with silence. In fact, I thought when, when let me read the whole thing, I'll read the whole thing. Silence said Emory, but no, he didn't say that. He said silence. Silence said Emory before the match when asked about Watkins. When the athletic asked post-match, if he felt let down by Watkins, having avoided clarifying whether the player refused to play, Emory asserted that the question was for him and his agent in Watkins place with Brian Maggio and Tammy Abraham injured was Ross Barkley, the midfielder moonlighting as a number nine. So he did start as a number nine. And then maybe Emmy Wendy, I spent a little bit more time. Maybe it was a front two. Yeah, I mean, on top of my, it had a Wendy there. So maybe he segwayed it. Or maybe they were just a little bit like loose. Maybe it was. I think they were a little loose. Sky had, Sky had him leading at the line at the beginning, but then Emmy won deer. Basically, they didn't have the ball very much. And Emmy Wendy was at the front of the out of possession unit the whole time. So I think that's why it was a bit confusing. I do want to say though, you and I, Emory saying silence, I cannot imagine a moment that I will prefer to that for whole season. I even showed my wife that video. He's got a few good moments like that. Hasn't he? He's throwing the bees up. The bees up. I do. That was so good. But the notion of, of, because he leaves quite a long period of silence first. And then it's like, he's not sure. You know, I think the journalist did a very good job by not jumping back in and just leaving it. It's one of the real skills of interviewing. Real skill. Yeah, yeah. To not say something is to leave the pregnant pause, leave it open for someone. It forces them to then have to say something. It's what Louis Theroux does all the time, right? Anyway, that's what the, that's what the, the broadcaster does. And then it's as though he feels unclear that his message has been communicated. So he just says the words silence. You don't need to know anything about football. You don't need to know anything about anything. The context is completely unimportant. All that matters is a man wants to communicate silence. He does that through silence. And then he says the words silence. It's like a little three act play. It's so funny to me. Anyway, what a great guy. Okay, I'll pick up. I'll pick up. We're approaching another dinkers, John. Ideally, Villa would keep Watkins viewing him as a player who can be the bridge between memory eras. They still think highly of him, yet there's no escaping. This current standoff is fracturing long standing bonds. They believe he's been distracted and hope somehow he can refocus provided he stays as spoiler alert. Yes, I've got David Ornstein here. This was from 17 hours ago. I don't know how I'm going to communicate when that actually was in time. But this is, this is four days off of this. This is relatively up to date news about hell. I'll finalizing agreement with Asterville to sign Ollie Watkins. Yeah, he's not missing too. Villa landing a replacement. And that replacement seems to be Nicholas Jackson. So this is Ornstein again, Asterville to strike agreement with Chelsea to sign Nicholas Jackson deal for 25 year old striker worth 47.5 million plus 17.5 million add-ons for maximum package 65 million pounds. So personal terms in process of being finalized ahead of Senegal International moving from Chelsea. And then just one other thing that we should be aware of here is that Tammy Abraham is, well, Ipswich are working on a loan deal for Tammy Abraham from Villa as well. So there's still a potential they might bring in another striker option. And we mentioned before Raphael Raphael layout. That's still up in the air. He might be going to Galatasaray but it seems Villa are interested in him potentially as well. And they've talked about him as a striker option rather than a winger option. Right. Because obviously they signed Alejandro Granacio as well. Yeah. Yeah. And according to I got David Paunstein earlier in the day. I thought that they might be signing Jack Reelish as well. But no, that was the David Paunstein, not a David Aunstein. Well, I wonder if we should talk about Nicholas Jackson at this stage because you mentioned earlier Johan Manzambi also signing to play maybe that more number 10 role. This is one of the reasons that I think that there's nothing to worry about because I feel as though very soon there could be a really cool, exciting, fast team, right? Yeah. Nicholas Jackson under Unai Emery. I thought he could play when he played under him before, hasn't he? Let's have a quick look. Was he a VRL when Emery was there? Maybe I'm just making this up. Let me have a look. I've got feeling that like he started out as a 29 years ago as a winger maybe and then was moved more centrally by Emery. But maybe I'm just hallucinating as the AI kids say. So VRL, yeah, he was at VRLB and then he went online. So 2021 to 2023 was Nicholas Jackson, 2020 to 2022. So there was about a seasons overlap. Yeah, and I got feeling that that was the season when maybe Jackson was started out playing as a winger and then Emery eventually brought him inside. Right. Well, on the basis of that time they spent together Nicholas Jackson moved to Chelsea. So perhaps it works out. Well, anyway, my expectation is that he performs really well than the Unai Emery has some ability. He seems sort of perfectly suited to it. I'm a really big fan of Nicholas Jackson. He sort of seems to be a bit perennially underrated by Premier League fans mainly. He missed some really easy chances. Yeah, he misses big chances and but still scores a lot and has like really good. I remember JJ doing a video on him like actually in his first season at Chelsea where I think he put up something like a top 20 in a whole season XG level for the chances created. Yeah, so if you could take them. Yeah, exactly. And you know, I think Emery has a track record of taking strikers and making them really, really productive. We saw him do that with Ollie Watkins, who again was another striker who started out most of his career playing in wide areas. Yeah. And then and then Emery brought him inside and was like basically staying between the two lines of the penalty box in a vertical sense and and and just make focus on getting goals. And I think if you can get the same out of Nicholas Jackson, this could be a very exciting transfer. Yeah, for sure. I'm excited to see the team in about a month's time. Okay, picking up. There's a dinkers here. I'll pick up after the dinkers, John. What supporters witnessed at Brighton is what happens when the spine of any structure disappears. The result is an inward collapse. Last season was Villa's most successful in a generation. Below the surface of Silverware and a Champions League place finish, Villa did show signs of regression. Performance is fluctuated and did suggest staleness. Several club sources, speaking on the condition of anonymity to discuss business matters, have long opined that Villa needed to regenerate. Some hoped it would begin last year, starting with a more subtle gradual transitional period. Yes, John. Yeah, and we talked already about this, but I've got the notes here about just how confusing it has been to talk about Villa from a tactical analytical point of view because they often sort of frustrate you, but like they make me look silly a lot of the time. Right. Because what you see suggests one thing and another thing happens. I think one of the ways that I would describe the Emory Villa period is it's almost like Emory plays football on hard mode. He sort of makes certain decisions where I think why would you do that? You're making life more difficult for yourself. So for example, like a good example of this is they're quite passive when they press. So it was weird watching. I watched the first 20 minutes of the game against Brighton and what's so interesting about that is that one of the things I talk about a lot in terms of tactical analysis now is it's so hard for you to generate settled possession from goal kicks in the Premier League because teams just hand to hand really high at the pitch, stop you for having any time on the ball. This was true of both teams in that in that first 10 minutes as well, I think. Brighton struggled exactly the same. Right. But what was really interesting was that Brighton was just being able to play out from the goalkeeper to the back line and then you'd get sort of half hearted high press from Villa, but then Brighton would pop a couple of passes round and then Villa would be like fine, we're going to drop off into our mid block and it's just like what Man United looked like against how? Yeah, maybe more worrying, but yeah, I thought from that it sort of felt like quite a throwback football in that respect. Once you do that then you're saying okay you can control the game and we're going to just allow you to move the ball and force us back with smart passing. And then the other thing being that with Villa what you get is this attempt to build that from the back in a sort of reverted, deserving way in many respects where they're trying to again bait presses forward and work the ball around in these triangle units in the deep areas and then find these escape routes and then have these transition moments where they're suddenly able to up the tempo and attack quite directly. That's obviously quite hard to do in an era where teams are now man to man pressing you, right? So it feels like a both ends, they're like making it easier for the opponent to have a settle possession, but then making it hard for themselves to do the same thing. And sometimes you watch it and you think how's this working for them? It just it doesn't seem like it should work. And yet I mean I guess last season it was as you mentioned before, Morgan Rogers would like pop a few in from long distance. I mean Wendy would score a free kick and and it was you know that and that's not by way of criticism. I think that's the way the modern football is going. It's coming down to individual performances and the ability to have really quick attacks and finish them off. But it does make it really hard to sort of assess what their level is out. So I've just wanted to mention that here because I think it's good that Jacob points out yeah you know last season was obviously the most successful but they were already some of these warning signs under the under the surface. Yeah okay I'll pick up from here. Emory wanted to keep the core together for one more year. I'm jumping in straight away. I mentioned this before we came in. We've talked a little bit on the last podcast episode actually about clubs where it feels almost as though they're moving away from sporting director models towards like the coach has much more power in terms of like the recruitment process and stuff. And the certain coaches who earn that right I think and I think Emory has earned that right and four years deep. Yeah exactly yeah and you know one European competition but it does sort of complexify things a little bit because I think if you look at the way that they're structuring their transfer activity this window it does seem like quite I don't know nimble and they sort of flip between targets and and they're going for some targets on one side where where you think oh these are incredibly like different types of target right or you might get someone like gone at you and then they're talking about roughly out at the same time having signed one in the in the seemingly the same position or you know moving between sort of striker targets that seem to have very different kind of profile fits which I don't think necessarily is a is a bad thing but I think in this instance it does sort of indicate that actually what you're getting here is a coach led recruitment where it very much comes down to like we like this player and therefore we're going to sign them so for example Johan Manzambi I mentioned before he played in the Europa League final is there any surprise that you know your coach would play against a team and and their best play be like oh he was good against us we should let's buy the best player yeah so again like I don't think that necessarily means that the fans should be worried about the state of the squad off the back of that but it's certainly again a question to raise about it's an approach yeah right and you know we've seen that go badly before and we've seen it go well before and we're seeing it happen a lot of other teams yeah absolutely spurs is the main example right now we talked about it with with respect to Fulham as well yeah and Fulham have just brought in a coach out of nowhere to do this so exactly it's not even how about four years to do that Chelsea as well Alonzo has been it's been called a manager rather than a head coach for the first time in the in the blueco here I think so again that suggests that there's a lot of people higher up at clubs who are just like oh the thing to do now is to give power to the coaches and yeah and let them be the ones to decide these things so maybe it won't maybe not but I think there's definitely signs in their transfer windows that that Emory is the one who's driving a lot of this I like the idea that by the time man united have finally got around to doing it the other way there are lots of teams who've come back around this way yeah it's really funny now because some teams took a long time to adopt that other type of approach and again like the teams who are the smartest ones are the ones who can be ahead of the curve I've been tweeting a little bit this week about how we're seeing we sort of seeing a low possession era emerging in the Premier League where you know we for example Chelsea beat Fulham but they had 40% possession there was a few teams where this had happened Arsenal 1 3 0 comfortably against City in the in the community shield yeah they had 40% possession right and and you know I think something like seven of the in seven of the games in the Premier League this weekend the team with lower possession ended up winning is that value possession yeah yeah exactly and a lot of Manchester United fans responded to me being like at a point or or spurs fans were like oh brilliant at a point at which we're trying to you know evolve in a different direction yeah exactly like possession has never been less valuable so it doesn't make you think also that I don't you know I don't want to spend the entire year harking after Guadiala but Guadiala and Man City just they just had it completely nailed didn't they because even though Guadiala had every right to make every single decision he wanted to you don't look at that Manchester City projects and think well that's Guadiala making every decision you look at it and you think they're pretty sure he worked very well very closely with people behind behind the scenes as well it wasn't like he did all the scouting himself sign players he played with before despite the fact that he was very clearly in a position where he could command that kind of control because the reason we say that this happens as a natural part of football management progression is because at a club like Villa you get a manager in like Unai Emery he does really well he earns more control over a period of time even this is natural wastage right so like a people who work in backroom staff roles leave and then maybe the structure restructures and when you have someone there who's you know fantastic at their job and everyone likes them and they're really good they just naturally inherit more and more and more power over time but it's also a choice and most people in that situation would say yes I want this I want this I know better I can do it whereas you never really feel with Guadiala like that was ever true you almost feel like he you know he obviously wants his say but he's very focused on solving the tactical problem rather than like using necessarily the transfer market to do it yeah and I think it's always easy for us to sit here and be like oh all you need to do to be successful is have like a really smart infrastructure in your club and have for people making the decisions it's simple yeah yeah exactly when when the reality is is that what you're doing when you're trying to build a squad is building a squad that a manager is going to use and if you fill that squad you can fill that squad with the with the most brilliant profile fit like game model options you want but if a coach doesn't like them they're not going to play them and so it's the money ball problem in the film money ball do you remember like part of the blockage for the plot the whole way through is that Brad Pitt got this idea he's got Jonah Hill on his side they're doing it together and who's that Philip Seymour Hoffman the coach who's saying I don't want any part of this you're making me look like an idiot yeah and resist and resist and resist and resist and eventually they get rid of him and then I'm presumably getting some patsy hool do what who does whatever they want them to do and it works out quite well you traded pain yeah yeah and menachino hill just tam are all being sent down you are outside your mind yeah koku it's exactly that scenario yeah i've got friends won't play the player yeah i've got friends who work in recruitment and this is something they have to deal with all the time it's that the reality is is that you can provide them with all of the best targets possible but if they don't like them they don't play them and and then that's that so you have to you have to try and find that balance i always has to be a compromise and the easiest way to affect that compromise when you're a club who has a successful coach is to say fine you lead the recruitment because that's the reality of what's going to happen functionally anyway okay i'll pick up here emery wanted to keep the core together for one more year while the club are happy with several acquisitions such as injured record signing your handman it has led to this summer which has proven a bit more of a sudden evolution it's potentially more pain inducing like ripping off a plaster oh that sounds really painful Joe yeah thanks that was our second go at that bit yeah villa didn't start last season well failing to score in their first four matches with the transfer window hardly helping to provide security in light of the raft of departures this has been even more acute this was a match that passed Villa by and one they were unequivocally not ready for emery hugged go mares as he trudged down the tunnel becoming the first player to receive a first half red card on his premier league debut for a club since queen's park rangers samba diakite against fulham in february 2012 was a long time villa supporters were excited about emery's second villa iteration in the athletics hopo meter i love to call it the hopo meter rather than the hopometer yeah yeah yeah all like the hop the hopop yeah the hopometer the hop what about the hopiometer the hopiometer that's nice as well in the athletics hopiometer they're ranked as the very irish isn't it well they ranked as the second most optimistic fan base i didn't know that yes john do you want to have pop quiz yes do you presumably you saw this i know i didn't i didn't read it i really did know do you want to guess who's top on the hopiometer yeah well now that's very interesting is it Arsenal no Arsenal actually mid table of course i should have known they wouldn't be completely happy with winning the league and being the strongest team going into the next season yeah i mean incredibly like they're they're below born with right they're below sondaland they're below spurs incredible um Chelsea brand yeah keep saying more teams because then for us villa it's not man united is it no man united are they've got to be just a low arse they're scared they're scared to be happy um and presumably new castle are down by the bottom new castle of fourth from bottom right do you want to guess whose bottom top i mean we including the big six it's a big six side is bottom no way it's not liable liable or bottom 42% pessimism are you kidding uh 58% optimism what they say worried about don't they know that you love and don't eat or i'm i'm in there i'm in there i'm in the pessimistic end of the spectrum but so a Chelsea at the top no Chelsea fifth so this team right and this team have 99% optimism and one percent pessimism brighten nope no Brentford no okay let me keep going it's not born with no no uh is it full of no full of a second boss they must be second boss can say they they're probably the other end a bit is it everton everton a third boss everton ever to like a never above the top five the bottom five uh okay so who else could it possibly be let me cast my mind back to the weekend who played who is it is not big 60 no no and it can't be so it's not a new castle it's not bright it's not Brentford it's a it's a promoted team it's a team that were in relegation battle at times i see forest no spurs no west hand went down leaves sorry leaves a 99% optimistic yeah well because of one good season come on man don't shout on me i didn't watch leads first game to Daniel far could do the same thing he did last season or as he tried to introduce some like you're gonna say quite a lot of things let's put it put it this way uh-huh leads had six penalty box chances right five of them came from long throwing well grounds for optimism yeah grounds for optimism right when you can win one nil from a long free kick which probably shouldn't have gone in then why wouldn't you be optimistic that doesn't feel very leads to be 99% optimistic but a lot of people it's just leads people who subscribe to the athletic yeah yeah but i think i think what's happened this summer is that a lot of that a lot of uh influences i don't know what that influences is the wrong word a lot of punches pundits have have been like oh my sneaky pick is leads to get european football or something so right i think by the time that this has come out all leads fans are in a in an incredible hype about the season right they've been whipped up into a frenzy there's only one percent of us pessimists left in the leads fanbase well but i guess we should say that if villa a second yeah then first doesn't really mean anything does it villa being second feels wild to me as well right yeah i mean you guess you you you you already i'm surprised by that given that i suppose that the uri tealamans departure was a surprise right so it's not as though fans going into the summer expected that's necessarily the case olly Watkins only left now in fact some of the some of the sort of concert was late as well yeah when did the hopo meter happen hopo meter let me have a quick look at the hopo meters date see this was august 19th so it was was that just before concert yeah concert concert happened last year yeah so a lot of their key players of i mean tealamans already on so how many how many pessimism points that you're adding for concert you've got to add some and i'm more about tealamans but then you balance that off with like manzambi i guess manzambi had already been done at this point i'd say i'd say if like if concert liqueur say concert leaving it is is what it is but like if it means that victor lindeloth has to be your starting centre back for the rest of the season then that's x for a negative no no no dig on victor lindeloth but like you know he was more effective in a completely different area of the pitch love season right so i don't know i i think that i think you've got to take some hopo meter points off for that olly Watkins leaving in the way that he's done you've got to take hopo meters of points but then that's the next step some probably balances it oh maybe yeah maybe you're right maybe there's nothing to worry about who knows maybe we should be optimistic certainly not worrying right nice six percent of them are optimistic so i would like to ask those people again after the four year bright and game weather yeah and and that will definitely be the thing that changes what would the value of the swing b you know maybe i reckon it could be 30 percent swing yeah i think it shouldn't be no i think it probably will be and it's a you know it's a serious point i think that we we've become much more like sort of fragile when it comes to predictions and feeling confident about our predictions that's why the astral fans are smart to stay mid-table regardless of what yeah well the reason astral fans do that is because when astral inevitably win the league they'll be like yeah you know it was a tough season we once again one one of the most difficult leagues of all time um so yeah you've got to begin we do have to balance out for steve hanky and kayakayak that's why we're doing it anyway the hopo meter the hopo meter hopiometer uh they ranked as the second most optimistic fan base this oh now this is this was before concert departed and before what kins intentions were apparent enthusiasm might still linger but the pervading emotion is one of trepidation even if villa will strengthen and look markedly different post deadline day with the game done at four nil and villa waiting to be put out of their misery no shots on target and one player asking the fourth official how they'd managed to get five minutes of additional time emery's name bellowed from the away end he along with caption begin our pillars in a swirling summer that has created increasing unease there we go so that was by Jacob Tanswell published on the afatic and that was a ring for an analysis i hope uh i hope everyone enjoyed listening to it john hmm yeah yeah great let's see you later then yeah bye bye you