Miguel Delaney on Copa Independent (World Cup 2026): "The whole episode with Match Officials Mic'd Up almost sums it ...

A few days after the VAR controversy in the Manchester Derby, we're taking a deep dive into every football fan's favourite, or should I say least favourite, topic, referees. Eight years after VAR was introduced, what's changed, has referee and got worse, and how has the wider media discussion on referees changed? Welcome to this week's edition of Copper Independent, the Independence Football Podcast. I'm Keir and Jackson and I'm joined by Chief Football writer Miguel Delaney. Hello. And Sport said it's a Jack Raffborn. Hello. We're recording the morning after Howard Webb has appeared alongside Michael Owen in match officials' mic-top, the inevitable unveiling of the VAR audio for Erling Harlan's controversial goal on Sunday, which has since been acknowledged as an era. So we'll start there. I mean, Webb described the VAR in this case, Matt Donahue, as getting tunnel vision as he went through the process of making the decision. Miguel, you're obviously watching the game and I've since dissected the kind of inevitable fallout online and from pro-ref, what have you made it all and has it just kind of underlined a few things about where VAR is at the moment? Well, a tunnel vision sums up so much and I think it's such an indicative phrase. I mean, look, just the one thing I would say first of all is the whole little episode with mic-top almost sums it up because I can't really be going to say this, but it is true though. The sake of apologies in football, they want now improved accuracy or they don't want this kind of thing again because this is exactly what the VAR was supposed to prevent. And I think that's the biggest frustration because the whole Harlan goal, it feels separate to and yet an extension of the usual VAR debate because this isn't about slowing the game down frustration. It's actually inserting an incorrect decision into the game after having the opportunity to look at all the video footage. Well, that is supposed to be like that's precisely supposed to be the opposite of what VAR is there for. So to actually go with this trouble and then have it wrong, it does feel like why this particular story or this particular incident has taken on another dimension, obviously I'm sure people would say, it's because it's against Manchester United, but it is a big game and it's a big game that's been decided by one goal and that goal should have been chopped off. And yeah, I mean, as I say, people are people in football are sick of apologies, I can point to, you know, so many or whatever, but to break it down, I thought that phrase of tunnel vision was so instructive. There's been a lot of like recent stuff written about this and some great books like what I think about VAR. This could be seen as an inevitable evolution or devolution of you like of wherever VAR is going to go, where because there are so much to consider in real time, because there's so much to pressure, because the football's laws, they weren't built for video review, they're built for the game as it's played fluently. So suddenly you have to retrofit or adapt the laws to, like, they're not fully in sync to having video. And hands think you get this situation where tunnel vision is actually exactly the right word. And they're so focused on one aspect that they're forgetting to look at the goal in its totality, the goal is just also whatever phrase you want to use. And like the only consideration as regards ends up on Anders, who's clearly offside, was whether he touched the ball, not whether he was offside and that actually affected the wall. And so like, it reminded me, I suppose, I said to some scotty sports, or let's do their show. When you're editing a piece something like that and you're so focused on certain things to look for, and then suddenly it's printed out, or you see it online, it's published and you think, how did I miss that? This massive, but it's just because of the kind of the psychology of when you're trying to scrutinize for something. But then I said, the whole point of VAR, like, this vision people are, like, looking at the TV, screaming at it, is that you're supposed to have this wider view. I think people do expect an element of perfection with AR, the video technology has been brought in to clear up obvious decisions. And in this instance, it switched a no-go to a goal when the right decision was to disallow the goal. I mean, I think that's the ultimate frustration, whether you talk about VAR as an element of losing the passion and fun out of the game, because you can't celebrate properly. People want the accuracy if the video technology is there. And I just thought that the mic-top episode was so interesting, because much like that Louis Diaz disallowed goal, it should have been allowed in 2023. And the kind you look at, you listen to it, and it kind of begs belief a little bit as to the audio, back with the Diaz thing, they just rushed through it. And this time, we're described as tunnel vision, but for me, it was just when he realised Harlem was on the side, you could hear the VAR rushing through the system, so we need to get this game going again, we need to get the game going again, which is something they are criticised for, but ultimately it should be about the right decision. And that's why the Fernandez interference was overlooked. I mean, Jack, what have you made of all? Similar to Diaz, just incredible how selective they were on what they wanted to debate to the minute detail and what they rushed through. I think we're now at a point where we're between hysteria around the AR and officials and just pure indifference and fatigue, and I think that's probably the scariest thing for the Premier League is that they have something which is jeopardising their product, and it's as Miguel has as a report on and has mentioned, it's all self-inflicted. And I think that's a really dangerous place to be in that the product has, we've discussed on the pitch and the very best players in the world perhaps playing away from the Premier League, yet actually the football and the competition has been such a captivating thing for the English Expo and football in general here. And yet this is completely clouding what a lot of people tune in for, and they use it as an escape. And yeah, it's really jeopardising the product. Have standards fallen, do you think? I mean, we've obviously watched the game for a number of years, some professional capacity or just as a fan. Do we think that the impact of AR has made on-field officiating worse because they know they've got the safe-keep element of going back to AR decision? Because it struck me as very telling that Michael Oliver wasn't sent to the screen and just rolled along with the decision, it was such a big moment in the game. It looked like a clear offside of hard and let alone Fernandez. So the fact he didn't even get taken to the pitch side monitor, Miguel, I mean, it was kind of really telling for me that the on-field official has kind of lost that authority. Well, I think there's two ways to look at this. First of all, I think Pro-Ref, as I call now, a rebrand, and I was journalists, Deon Fanning and his joke, there might be another rebrand after this. I think they would have stats that had obviously improved accuracy. I think it's generally true as well, just simply by virtue of having the VAR, there's more decisions that we have right. But this isn't actually about improved accuracy anymore. I look just as an example, I suppose, the biggest from last season, the West time won against Arsenal, the fell and David Raya. Without VAR, that probably passes, we've maybe got a whole different run-in, but people wouldn't necessarily complain about the decision of Arsenal, probably would, because there was so much going on in the box. You can see when everything's added up, yes, it's probably the right car. That's a greater accuracy, but some of this comes down to what we expect of referee. We'll get into this about kind of the change media dimension, like I was thinking, before we came out, I was kind of looking through this, what would be considered the worst decisions in English football history? I'm not talking about abroad or the World Cup, but I'm talking purely in England. I suppose people were pointing to the Columns, Suggerwood, in 1971, when I actually went to Arsenal, won the double in West Bromance Quarter against Leeds United, there's the Clive Allen Ghost Goal, where the ball hit a stanchion and came out, and what a goal was given, a goal wasn't given for Crystal Palace, but it did feel a lot of the discussion about it was much more muted, I think because the stakes were lower, and that's what we can touch on. There's not as many cameras, there's not as focus, there's that same media storm around it, but also that's of an era where football, of course, itself is, yes, it's professional football, but it's less professionalised, there's so much more of a kind of a rough and ready element to football, right down to preparation, to fitness, to tactics, everything. And by extension, refs were the same, and this is where I suppose it's a bit of a disconnect, and that obviously we've got so many cameras now, the media storm is so much greater. There's such a kind of a yearning for content that people in there, like the question isn't necessarily whether refereeing is more accurate, but whether the standards, because I mean, I don't really believe there was this golden age of refereeing, it's just kind of the focus on it, it's completely different, it's just the standards are expected to be, well, I think as you put it here, I mean, it's, it's basically gets down to kind of people want perfection due to technology, but by definition, because of what VAR is, because of what decisions they look at are, it perfection is impossible, but this issue is specific issue, wasn't about perfection. Yeah, I think that's something that I care about after the West Ham does allow goal in May. I think a big topic of discussion was that because offside is black and white, so per se, should be, that maybe VAR should just stick to offside and anything, which is more subjective about a foul in the box should stick to an on-field decision, generally speaking. The thing is with this, of course, is that it is offside and they've still screwed it up. I mean, Jack, in terms of where the refereeing standards is at the moment, and in terms of, do we actually think refereeing has fallen a little bit? I probably agree with McGell, I don't think that's necessarily the case, there's been some clangers throughout history, I mean, I remember the ghost goal in 2005, and obviously that was a goal line technology, and we brought that in, and everyone said it was obvious, whereas VAR hasn't been implemented so effectively, it seems. Yeah, I agree. Maybe there is a little bit of nostalgia around officials from a previous era. You immediately think of the PLU, EG, Kalina, of that ilk, who were sort of heralded as the standard, quote unquote, but I think maybe that is something that potentially, the Premier League and officials need to look at that presence, that whether it is charisma, does personality come into it? I mean, obviously it's a dangerous line you get there because you don't want them to insert themselves into the game and become a personality on the pitch, but I feel like that respect element and sort of like seeps into trust as well. I think it should be sort of, it's forgotten a little bit, but yeah, maybe we need to lean on some of these officials who are sort of, I don't know, championed by UEFA and FIFA, likes Michael Oliver, I mean, VAR is undermining officials of that standard, that experience that they have over sort of dozens of very high profile games, and you're right, Kieran, I think it would have been preferable if you give the power a little bit back to those said officials, particularly on a stage like Old Trafford, a game of that magnitude, bring them over and give them the tools a little bit, obviously it's great to have a second, a third pair of eyes sort of, and that communication, but yeah, maybe you need to sort of involve them a little bit more, and then I think in turn maybe the fans, like sort of build that connection and that rapport with an official, and they can maybe sort of trust them a little bit more and see the process that they go for, whereas I think because VAR is sort of detached and away from the stadium, the pitch, it does seem like maybe that's lost a little bit. I just thought of touching on that though, Jack, it just gives you a talk and it kind of struck me, I'm sorry, Kieran, for deviating from the script slightly, but one thing I'm curious there, like, hey, did you guys want the AR and be what do you feel about now? Because I'm mostly, I'm probably much more ambivalent than most, I can see all these flaws, I've been very much CDR even now, that actually this is impossible to impose properly, and I feel like I should just give a shower because I did a bit of a disservice in the first part. The book I was speaking of is by Daisy Christodillou, apologies for mispronisioning, Daisy, but I can't stop thinking about which is brilliant on the disconnect between, you know, the way football's laws are written and now having a mode of applying them which doesn't necessarily fit with the way the laws are written, because I have to say, given we mentioned kind of, you know, a game from the past and all that, I still do fine when I watch some of those games and you see an obvious issue, and look, maybe I'm conditioned now, but my instinct is to go, it's got to go to VAR, and these are some of the most famous kind of big issues of the past, because I still find absurd, especially when there's going to be so much focus, and let's not forget that one of the reasons VAR existed is because the ref discussion and criticism was growing so much in the decade building up to it, but it still feels absurd to me that you have what you would have recourse to kind of video, especially all the audience that have recourse to a video review, and the men, the most important individuals at the centre of this wouldn't. So I'm still, that still, that still feels to me an argument for keeping, but I suppose we're again back to kind of implementation, I would reject them, we'll say this usual argument, it's not the technology of the people, I think it's more complex than that, because I think it's the issue of how you apply the technology and which maybe there is an issue, but yeah, I'll be, I'll be curious to see what you guys both think at this point. Yeah, we were discussing before we came on air about how a few West Ham fans we know have gone down to the championship, obviously West Ham have gone down to the championship, and now with no VAR they can celebrate their goals freely and have all that moment, and they're all of the opinion that, oh, we need to just wipe VAR out of the game, VAR is not going anywhere, the use of video technology does improve officiating, I know this one is a howler, but generally they get it, it means they get it right, but I do think that it's got to a point now, it's been eight years since it was properly implemented, the 2018 World Cup was the first time, it was really implemented at the top level, and just to still have such glaring errors, I think is what people are losing the patience with, I don't think it's the fact that they've got the access to the video technology, I don't even think it's the fact that the element of celebrating a goal has changed, because I think people do want accuracy, it's about how their team perform and results, particularly players and managers, but the fact that these errors are happening, I mean, it was only three years ago that Lewis Diaz goal, not no goal happened, and yet we've had another embarrassing moment for pro ref, I mean, what do you think, Jack? I think it's fanciful to expect it to go away, as he say here, and I think it is here to stay, it just needs to be a discussion to streamline it, I think it's interesting about the delay in the game, whether fans enjoy, or hate the fact that it does delay the game and add on considerable time, I think it's interesting, you would fans prefer sort of a cap on the amount of time that the AR spends on send decisions, but then you'll bring pressure on the officials, fans would prefer it until there's a hell against their team, yeah, and this is what's on which one comes down to it, which sounds absurd to put even more pressure on the AR, but we've seen it in other sports, I saw World Athletics, they had at their ultimate championships at the weekend, when there's an incident in race, they almost wanted a decision whether to advance an athlete to a final before race even finishes talking seconds there, so yeah, I think like obviously off sides, as Kim mentioned, black and white, but it feels like there needs to be sort of almost like categories to these decisions, and yeah, just very much a case of we need to get to a crux of a matter straight away, whereas they seem to tie themselves in not a little bit, particularly with this one, given the number of minds that were working on this to sort of avoid the main issue of the incident, it was almost unforgivable. I mean, just a final point before we move on to I think what is probably the more interesting discussion about the media world and officiating, bringing up other sports is an interesting one, because obviously rugby has had television match officials for a long time, and they don't always get it right, you know, these decisions, whether it's something happening out, these are always debated within the rugby world after the match, particularly if it's not subjected about whether the ball is crossed the line or whether someone's in touch. Same with the tennis world, which is bought in video review recently about double bounces, it's still not obviously clear, errors are still made, so I think it's important to recognise that football is in the loan in trying to solve this issue about bringing video technology, and when a decision isn't actually clear-cut, that it's really difficult to actually ascertain which side of the coin you go, and obviously in this case, it's so frustrating because it does seem so obvious. We'll take a quick break, and then we'll come back and discuss the wider media discussion on referees. Welcome back, and now we're going to delve a bit deeper into the wider media world on referees, really, which has become quite a big business, whether it's kind of referee watch on sky sports every Monday morning with Dermat Gallagher, or refereeing experts in live matches, analysing and discussing and officiating decisions has become a big part of the sports media world. In a way, I don't think it really was a decade or two ago, particularly on broadcast television. What have you noticed over the last decade, or say maybe since VR was introduced in 2018 in terms of the wider media discussion, because it's kind of everywhere now, whether it's your Twitter, your Instagram, on TV, you can't escape it. I think we've become, sorry, I say we doze of us in the English cultural ecosystem, the English football cultural ecosystem, it's become Spain slash Italy. So I'm like, obviously, I'm half Spanish, and when I was going to Spain, when I was kind of young, in the late 90s, early 2000s, and getting really attuned to football media, I used to be stunned a bit, hell, like this was illegal, like a 9697, had run out, though, you know, in the early 2000s, the Gallagher goes, like on array of stars, and yeah, you pick up the front pages, sports pages, which would obviously be bigger than the internet at the time, and it'd be there, like, to be an off-side line drawn, or some complained about referees. And I said, like, this is, like, you're watching some of the best football in the world, and you're obsessed with the refs, and I used to think at the time, actually, watching obviously Irish football, English football, obviously people discussed referees, but it never felt as intense, it never felt such singular focus, like to compare it as well, when you're watching Match of the Day, like, this is something that's really, or singing of yes, there isn't a podcast on it, where we don't match a day, would just be about the football on the discussion, how many times on Match of the Day in the 90s, or even to just thousands, would you have, at that point, Des-Line and Margarit Lenica have to show, you know, put on the screen, well, these are the actual laws, whereas it feels like Kelly Kates does that almost every time she's done that, where you have yes, as it's spelled out, like that is something that has fundamentally changed, and I do think that is something that ties into everything we've discussed in the greater cameras, I think the heightened stakes. So yeah, I do think absolutely, in that sense, English football has become like Spain and Italy in, where a discussion of referees has really kind of spread and dominated to become one of the main talking points of the game, and it's the most, the more interesting question about that is, because I do think that is, that's actually separate to something about standards, this is something about whether it's an inevitable point where the game goes, because even as you were talking there here on about kind of the discussion in other sports, I felt myself kind of almost tricking myself into kind of thinking that usual thing, like it's amazing to be in the Premier League now, and it's so bad, whereas the World Cup will work perfectly, the World Cup, it didn't, I mean, I've had to remember two weeks in the World Cup, there was this massive discussion about the referees being appalling, and I was at one of the games with the biggest issues, which was Argentina, Egypt, where we had two big decisions, and that game, the most notable being the Egyptian goal, it was ruled out, because Varicala backed for a fairly innocuous foul up the pitch. Similarly, there's often a view here that like, oh, the referees elsewhere, they don't see this, but as he say, Spain and Italy, the discussion is as strong as ever in Spain, like it's every single week, the referees, and I think that is that, is that something that's connected to when football adopts such stakes, both financial stakes, and really I suppose more importantly, such emotional stakes, such a white people that this is actually something that is unavoidable, that the discussion of referees becomes unavoidable. It has become so forensic, the detail and the analysis of refereeing decisions, I was at the USA Bosnia game, and just to bring something a little bit different into it, we are talking a week or two, since Mike Dean admitted he was waiting for how long to blow the whistle in a game, and things like that, and that doesn't help the discussion on referees, does it? Because the wider football fan will just turn their nose up at that, and rightly so, and when you have something like the Balican Red Card overturned with no explanation, that also doesn't help the credibility of refereeing either. But it's important to differentiate between just discussion and debates about refereeing, and then actual issues as deep as that. I mean, Jack, are we a fan of, you know, refwatch on a Monday morning? Are we a fan of, you know, the live barren cannon for the BBC, or whether it be back in the day, Peter Warton on BT Sport? I think they're the first to bring it in really, in the English game, because I think you will know better than me being a big fuller of the NFL. The NFL have had this for a few years. Yeah, absolutely. I think in the sort of British broadcasting sphere, I think we're yet to adopt the US setup. I mean, we do have our pundits, but when you have somebody like a Gene Stereotor or Mike Pereira on the NFL broadcaster, they almost feel like the authority and someone that you need to take note to solve, even if you don't quite understand them, whereas, I think, as you mentioned, for our broadcasters, it's just not quite, it feels a bit awkward and clunky when someone like Darren Fletcher sort of segues towards the official, but you're right. I think non-live referee analysis has become part of the narrative between games, and obviously given the saturation of the calendar, there's not too much time for that, but it really does fill a gap. You mentioned Jay Bothroyd on a Monday. It feels like there's sometimes an opportunity for certain pundits to be the professional, or just fans and amateur pundits, influences if you like. They can generate a lot of attention. I mean, just noting on Twitter or X, that Jay Bothroyd clip where he calls out Howard Webb and demands that he comes on the show for a showdown, if you will, a head-to-head debate. He gives Darren McAleker a hug. So many times we're giving Darren McAleker a really getting to it. Yeah, but I mean, he's giving Darren McAleker an aggravated, absolutely. I mean, Jay Bothroyd obviously was a good player, but by no means, like, top level. And yet, he's getting, I saw 1.2 million views, just on his speech on that show. I mean, the VAR audio is getting a similar amount of millions of views. And I think there's almost maybe the pool of referee pundits needs to be expanded. I think there are some which, I think, generally seem to sort of appeal to the fans. I mean, Christina Uncle seems mostly widely accepted, and her analysis enjoyed. But you're right. I think we're just sort of veering from one extreme to the other. It's not quite, obviously, from another era where we had to couch-hoppally and that's a totally different thing in corruption. But you mentioned McGill about the world cup and pour-efficientating, potentially as damaging, even if there's no substance to it, in this case, when the social media narrative is around, oh, the officials have done it again for Messi. It can be quite damaging how that's the backdrop, and it forms the baseline of discussion between fans, on social media, or when they're messaging, or potentially even if they're just only half joking, it's not helpful. We're in the slightest. Well, and of course, that was skewed in the world cup by what happened with Balligan. Like, I mean, obviously, I'm not saying it's true. I think it's a bit absurd. The old idea that the red that there was some kind of concerted attempt around it, like that. It's more as opposed when something like Balligan happens. It allows, it gives life to conspiracy theories, basically. It legitimizes a lot of arguments because if they see something like that, people kind of think, well, what else is going on? But look, I think some of it is just the difficulty, or a lot of it is just the difficulty of refereeing games, and that inevitably error comes in. But like, I put from all that, I mean, just under kind of ref pundits, I was kind of thinking like, what isn't helpful is when you guess a former ref who's on. And they almost always just say the ref decisions correct. That's not all we want. Because like, people could obviously just, they can immediately hear through it, basically see through it. People want actually robust analysis of why decision is taken. And if the referee pundits thinks it's wrong to tell us maybe how it's got to that, but to be able to call it as wrong. I mean, just from that Jack, how much interest do you find the sports center is actually in referee pieces? Because obviously like after a game, like some day say, we're discussing what's our follow up going to be, what angles should we go on? And you do want to either something ideally, you drive discussion yourself, but also to discuss something or report on something that people are talking about. I mean, this is beyond moaning, isn't it? This is like, people doesn't act of interest in talking about this. Yeah, I'd say so. I think if you sort of peaked behind the curtain a little bit just from Sunday, we, we noticed that I think perhaps three of the sort of the top 10 stories were sort of referee related or adjacent. I had like the explanation from pro ref. You sort of had pundits calling out demanding apologies. The explanation, if you will, I think that that can be wildly popular because people are watching it on their TVs at their home or on the pub and they're just not sure why something's been given. Maybe the audio is obscure, particularly if you're in the pub, so they need to know quite quickly the rules. Obviously, a lot of subjectivity around some of the decisions as well. So there is a genuine interest in like come Monday. We had one of our colleagues, Will Castle, did a comment piece on it. I think there is room and there's capacity to have this discussion. It does go beyond moaning or or winging because it's almost, I mean, this is the risk, I think, for the Premier League that it gets away from quite quickly and this becomes a thread throughout the season. I mean, quite quickly, you've had the Champions Arsenal and Manchester City detaching themselves a little bit from the chasing pack. And if this suddenly becomes a two-horse race, it's a big problem when you have already got at least two points, potentially awarded controversially, if in the eyes of Manchester United fans and perhaps Arsenal fans, you don't want this to be something that is being brought up in February when the tyre race is so close, particularly if it's only a two-horse race. So I think this is something that it does go beyond winging because it sets the tone, doesn't it? I mean, we haven't even talked about Arsenal at Sunderland and the way that Miguel Arthetta grasped the situation, he commanded his press conference afterwards, giving answers to questions unrelated to the incident and just making sure that he emphasised exactly what he found was unacceptable or I'm at penalty for Sunderland. And that's nothing new, is it? I mean, you know, very well, Miguel, from earlier in your career, I mean, Sir Alex Bergson was a master at this and I think it blurs the lines a little bit, but you're right, this goes beyond just sort of moaning about a decision. This can form part of the sort of a make-up of English football. It turns out that the actual written content, those referee explainers of simply saying who is the referee, they do absolutely fly when there's a decision whether we're a big football match or even a big rugby match, they do really well, don't they? And you know, when you think about it, it's just very logical, people are watching it, they maybe can't hear the commentary and they want to find out a bit more detail about said person who's making the key decisions on the pitch. So it does make a lot of sense. I think it kind of also goes into a modern day culture now, particularly on social media, where this is nothing new, this is newspapers as well, by controversy and which hunt sell to a certain extent, particularly exporting controversy. We've actually had so much talk about sporting controversy. I mean, how many times Miguel did you use the word unprecedented to discuss something off the pitch or even on it with the World Cup? This is something which is, you know, this trickles down from top tier politics as well, controversy in these debates sells. And therefore, when it comes to refereeing decisions and the discussion around it, it can become so almost so visceral, almost so antagonistic to the point that we just know it's going to get the clicks, you know, it's going to get the views. Yeah, on the witch hunt, you mentioned Kieran, I'll be interested to know what Miguel thinks on this. VAR is the villain here, right? We had Michael Oliver. I mean, this is obviously the most notorious example of this was potentially like, Byron Moreno, and Italy is just sort of consumed by this nature of like trying to find somebody responsible and that notorious game between Italy and South Korea. I mean, you could talk us over a bro as well. I mean, Chelsea have had their experiences in Champions League, that famous night. What's Tampa Bridge against Barcelona? So, yeah, I'd be interested to know Miguel, do you think that maybe the culprit could shift away from the AR back towards officials that it seems like English football fans are very much sort of in on the set up rather than specific officials? Yeah, I think VAR has become, and maybe this is probably just on a pure human level. This is probably a good thing that people are the most of the hate is directed towards a kind of an abstract concept or body, or even though the VAR is actually a person, but the whole concept of VAR rather than actual people in the, like obviously names are thrown around a lot, but I think because VAR is there, it's nowhere near as intense as it would be. But of course, if VAR was to go, it would just flip back to the direction. I mean, look, let's not forget what happened to kind of, you're a smirer when, in year 2004, when that England goal was ruled out against Portugal, or say, you know, Anders Frisk, I mean, basically, you felt he had to retire, like that scrutiny has been there. Obviously, the way these things happen now, a social media has ensured a fame or an infamy for, for referees that was, it's gone to a greater level, principally, because just this, just a much greater intensity of discussion as is the case with everything. And I was kind of thinking about this, actually. I mean, referees probably receive a focus, given their status and the sport, given how actual, like their actual fame. And you can, I suppose, connect as to pay as well. It feels completely disproportionate for individual humans to be kind of singled out or subjected to that level of scrutiny in that way. Almost second to it is actually maybe journalists when, or the media, as a kind of a concept to match VAR, when we were writing about these things and we, and people come across an opinion or a view or reporting that they don't like, I must say, I have been struck by commonalities and paradails between, between the two. Is that indicative of two sectors where people don't want to go into them? Eva, you know, journalism and officiating, you know, not the best paid industries in the world. You talk about grassroots referees. And you hear stories quite regularly in the lower tiers of English football about some very nasty abuse, whether it be verbally, whether it be physical, it's not exactly encouraging of people trying to get into referring. And obviously, it makes logical sense. If you have a smaller pool of people, you're not going to get the quality at the top as well. Yeah, completely. I look, there's a whole lot of discussion there. I mean, so I'm going to do my newsletter on the whole issue of rats as well this week. And I'm a bit like a, you know, deep reporting and the kind of views people within football all but one of the things that's already been raised to me is there's so much, this works two ways. There's so much focus on the refs at the top that it is detrimental to refs coming through. A, that's in the obvious point it's been made repeatedly in the before. Like, why would you come into this? Just to get, just to get abused in the way you do. And also because abuse at the top or discussion at the top, that is inevitably mimicked further down. And when that happens, you've got people who are just turning up for a match for you or whatever. It's suddenly being subjected to kind of like, unacceptable abuse in the day. And that obviously, check that will, look, there's always going to be a certain personality type attracted to officialdom like that. But you're still, you're still inevitably going to force out good people. But the other is actually, if it's a bit more institutional where there's some in football perceive that there's so much focus, say, from a body like pro ref or PGMO. Now, I'm sure they would reject this, but there's so much focus in the Premier League and the top of the game that there isn't enough and say, raising standards in league two, where the refs ultimately have to come through. And like, people do point to this issue. And as someone pointed out to me this week, in all of these media parents, especially the ones that Howard Webb does say, how many times you ever hear a discussion about what we need to let raise standards in league two or lower? Yeah, for sure. I mean, just to kind of end the podcast on something looking towards the next step. Do you either of you go see first Jack, do you see as there being a next step, could this be a line in the sand, this early Harland goal in terms of something different brought to VAI in terms of more clarification on protocols in terms of something discernibly different in terms of what decisions are left to the unfilled referee, what decisions are left to the VAI? Is there a discussion to be had about the environment professional referees are in terms of pay, if the Premier League is the richest league in the world, why can't there be on better salaries and then encourage us people to get better, encourage us people to get involved? What do you think could happen next? Or do you think we just continue in kind of this controversial echo chamber where it almost seems to be going on you one way? I think there is room for a conversation and you're right, the exorbitant amounts of money flowing into the Premier League that there really should be a trickle-down effect and officials should be compensated given the magnitude of the effect they have on these games, but to be frank, I don't see this being a line in the sand, I don't see it being a reason to drastically change the situation, I think they'll put it down to we go back to the start of the pod and the tunnel vision and I think they'll put this down to just sort of yeah just a really bad era and it just happened in the worst possible moment, a massive game in a game which was going to be defined by fine margins anyway, I think they'll move on from this and they will hope and probably in all likelihood they will see hopefully for fans as well like a good amount of time before another decision of this magnitude being wrong, so I don't see it changing anything any time soon, but yeah as you twist yourself on Kieran, like the football is only a part of the wider theater now, like what we are in is going to it's the football media industry complex where it's just a content machine and there's content discussion and not just about the game itself everything around it, we're refs being a significant part of that and along those lines is what like we see this every week now, major stories, are they fully got, they're really going to shore her life cycle than ever because the new cycle goes so quickly and hence by the same token, when just as an example of that, like where's the FIFA story now, like Infantino is probably unlucky in some ways that there was no football at the time and we know in FIFA they were desperate say to get to the start of the domestic seasons because I knew that once that happened the focus started to fade away which is exactly what's happened, but by the same token that that decision what you know both absolutely right, if this is a tight Premier League, if this it ends up deciding something either way like the title race or say kind of the Champions League race and Manchester United side, people will come back to that, but right now for all the Fiora about it and ultimately we're going to go into another Premier League weekend, it'll be you know another set of storylines, there will inevitably some some kind of refereeing discussion, I'll be due basis to where it goes to the heights of the Highland one, I think that's probably that's probably going to be the biggest disease and just for what it was and as we say to bring this full circle because it was almost the insertion of an era by VAR rather than kind of just VAR getting an existing decision wrong or an existence is being wrong and VAR not addressing it or something, it's actually the insertion of decision, but it just the conversation will go on and people will just point it in fact, it'll just be another apology next time and there's a reason that ref watch on a Monday morning on Sky Sports News can fill an hour every week right, there there's enough controversial refereeing decisions, I would say that thanks for joining us you two, our esteemed colleague Rich Jolly actually wasn't keen to join he said he described the discussion as tedious referee winging and he wouldn't get involved so he described any discussion on referees as tedious winging, yeah no it was quite it's quite the statement, unfortunately for him you're right this is going to the thread throughout the season and I would I mean even on that I would actually invite our listeners given the YouTube comments action can can get quite it can be vibrant and nothing there, where they are on this, do they see it as tedious winging or is this now something that's gone beyond that, but my instinct for years would have been to agree with Rich but I think that when there is such a game defining decision it goes with a threshold and B when we are in this era of so much professionalisation you can have a discussion on where things are set what should be better and also of course think what is most interesting of all is the way people now talk about this which I think has absolutely involved, I think it has been indeed beyond gone beyond tedious winging, yeah I certainly hope people think we had a sophisticated debate about refereeing and it wasn't just tedious winging, but yeah definitely definitely interested to hear your comments and it will often often be a pretty spicy YouTube comments section so thank you Bigel, thank you Jack for your time today I enjoyed talking about all that thanks to our producer James McDonald for his brilliant work on the podcast as always make sure you give us a like and subscribe to the copper independent which is part of the independent podcast network production so please do check out all the shows on our website and on YouTube and we'll catch you again next week see you then