Anatomy of a £445M Miscalculation: How Liverpool Lost Their Identity

Hello and welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Emma Payton. Florian Verts and Alexander Esac's Liverpool careers are yet to get going. Today we'll be getting into why the pair are still struggling and whether and Doni Iriola is the man to get the best out of them. Well here with me in the studio from the Athletic we have Jay Harris, good morning. Good morning to you as well. Down the line we have the Athletics German Football Correspondent, Seb Stafford Blore and on Merseyside, part of our walk on podcast team Simon Hughes and Syah here you guys are now on YouTube as well. So we're going to be seeing plenty more of your face coming forward I think. Everybody's very pleased to hear that, aren't I'm sure. Yes, I'm sure everybody is. Good to see all your faces this morning. And Jay, I guess this is a nice change for you talking about talking about different team other than players. Yeah, I don't have to talk about spurs being in crisis. I can relax and just enjoy myself today. We talk about another team maybe being in crisis. I don't know. Let's get into it then shall we guys. Former Liverpool defender Jamie Carriga described Liverpool's transfer window last summer as arguably the worst we have seen in Premier League history. That was on Sky Sports as Monday night football. That was after spending £445 million on seven new players, including spending over £100 million each on Florian Vertis and Alexander Eastack. So I'll start with you because I mean, Jamie Carriga, you didn't hold back, did he? What did you make of his comments on on Monday? I agree with him. Liverpool very much in that conversation at the moment. I know, Jay, just said they were not going to talk about spurs, but it did get me thinking about other really bad transfer windows and spurs have had one or two in the in the past. I think the distinction is the Liverpool is the amount of money that's been spent. But as we know, Premier League money has gone up and up and up and up and it's in keeping a guess with with the patterns of spending. But you know, I was thinking about spurs in 2013 after the sole Garret Bale Liverpool in 2014 after the sole Louis Suarez, Everton in 2017, Forest in 2022, and any Chelsea transfer window since since 2022, to be honest, you could you could you could make a case for any of those. So, you know, I think I think if it sent you things don't improve Liverpool, that conversation is only going to increase because as Jamie Carriga said, only one of the sand has really made an impression and, you know, he's got a long same injury at the moment. Yeah. And you go to EKTK and said, but I want to get your thoughts on Florian Vertis because it felt like he took the brunt of the criticism on on Monday night football. Of course, you watched him a lot of by Labour Cousin before he signed for Liverpool 12 months ago. How do you see it was the criticism harsh? Was it fair? Where do you stand? Yeah. Thanks. I think it's commensurate with the feel of people paid. You cannot be worth that amount of money and perform to the level that Florian Vertis has done. I think the second part of that conversation is that the conditions which allowed Vertis to succeed at Labour Cousin are not really in place at Liverpool. When I think back to that time, he's a wonderful player in his own right, sure, but also look at the team around him, look at the cahesion within the midfield and the way that is equal placios and granite jacket, equipped him with possession through the lines. Look at how well that full-backed tandem, wing-backed tandem function, Cremaldo and Fring Pong. Obviously, one is now at Liverpool. There was a great deal of chemistry there. And then even at the forward line between Patrick Schick and Victor Boniface, those players really understood their roles within the system and were really, the team was really built in a way which allowed Vertis to thrive. Now, I'm not Liverpool fans, it's very much dispassionate perspective, but whenever I watch them, it looks kind of clunky. They don't remind me of Lavi Cousin in any way whatsoever, either in terms of the individuals or the way that the team operates. Is it unrealistic to expect a Premier League team to operate around Vertis in the way that one would in the Bundesliga? I think probably so, Emma, because it's different standard of leagues. It's a different level of opposition. So there's way to go. I don't feel that aiming the criticism at Fring Vertis specifically is entirely fair, though. I think he's a little bit more of a product of his environment. In the same way that he was a product of his environment, Lavi Cousin, albeit in a different way. Some hard to disagree with that, really, right? Yeah, I said I used the word chemistry and I was going to use the word connections. A big part of the reason why Liverpool have performed over the last years is just not had consistency in that attacking areas. Vertis played with ESAC, Eckertike. He's played with Muhammad Salah, who the season before was amazing, massively dropped off. Cody Gakpo, yes, he scored at the weekend, but he can be really inconsistent and streaky. How are you supposed to form a good relationship with these people if you're constantly, if that lineup is constantly changing? You think back to the Liverpool's best era over the last decade or so. That was when everybody knew the front free was Firmino Salaramane. They were playing week in week out, and that just consistency and availability was a massive factor. Another thing, sorry to bring up Spurs, I have to do it, and I think Seb will agree with me, but there's another player who came from the Bundesliga in the same summer as Florian Vertis, exact same position who struggled. Javi Cousin, and they're both very technical. They're both quite slight and small-framed, and I think it really took both of them a little bit of time to adapt to the Premier League. That adaptation is still an ongoing process, but I think there is something to be said that they're both playing the exact same position. They're of a similar build, and they've both struggled to convert what was excellent form in Germany over to England. Not easy. On yesterday's show, I was joined by David Ornstein and James Horncastle, and James touched on Liverpool's spending last summer. Let's hear what he had to say. I saw Jamie Caragram on Monday night football saying that the transfer window that Liverpool did last summer was in the running for the worst transfer window in Premier League history. I think there are two reactions to that. One is, I think one of the reasons Andonia Rarillo has been hired is to work with that transfer window as though it was this year's transfer window. You have to get more out of those players that we bought last year. But another reaction to that is somehow that transfer window last summer where they signed loads of players for loads of money has left them short. So it feels like they really have a lot to do. Is that actually one of the big issues where they spent so much money last summer, but like James said, you look at some areas and they are short in some positions? Yeah, definitely. I think we might talk about Richard Hughes a little bit later on, but his record is going to come on the scrutiny. The free summer's transfer windows that he's had in charge of Liverpool, they signed Federico Kiezer in 2024. Last year they went obviously absolutely mad what we're talking about. And then this year it's been a little bit more patchy. It's maybe not the best track record going. But last year and Seb is familiar with Jeremy Frimpong from his time in the Bundesliga with Levacusin. But people probably don't really talk about enough of the tactical shift going from having Trent Alexander-Arnold as a right back to Jeremy Frimpong as a right back because they're just completely different in styles. Frimpong is someone who was playing so advanced for Levacusin. He basically switched him out for Alexander-Arnold too, was definitely more of a quarterback he'd dictate play from slightly further back. So not only was some of the signings maybe questionable, but just the massive change that that put on Liverpool's tactics is probably something that people don't consider and talk about often enough. And then in terms of at the time it's finally because people saying it was the best trance or window ever. And it just shows you you can't judge a trance or window in the moment. You have to see what happens further down the line. But even back then people were skeptical as to why they needed to sign the ESAC in the TTK. It felt like a rule not going to swear. But a real power move to just say to Newcastle, if you're not going to give us ESAC we're going to take a TTK and then we're just going to take ESAC anyways. But even back then people thought, well why are you doing that? Defense has always been an issue. You're going into another season where Joe Gomez is still one of your most senior centre backs. Kanate only had a year left on his contract. And as slot said was too often at the scene of the crime and has had his injury issues as well. So it's easy to look back and hindsight and say, oh, now it's the worst trance or window in history. Even at the time I think people did look at it and think that wasn't particularly good. I mean, Si, you're very close to the club. Is that what you were thinking? You're getting flashbacks of what you were doing and thinking 12 months ago? Well, on our podcast, I got a bit of stick for saying, I don't really quite all this transfer business to success just following. One thing for ballers taught you over time, whether at Liverpool or the clubs, evolution needs to be gradual. During the summers when Liverpool was very big and out or moved a lot on the transfer market, it's been a difficult season, the subsequent season because so much change means the players have to get, you know, new to the club, new relationships. It just doesn't, unless you're very lucky, it can be quite hard. You know, like Liverpool got a lot of credit over a long period of time for sorts of being ahead of the market and they just feel like the way behind it at the moment. And I think part of that is a consequence of overspending last summer. You know, maybe maybe the players were the right players, but the overpaid for them. I think, you know, that the fee for ESA was astronomical, you know, as resverts. And in many ways, I think Liverpool have now been punished for setting that bar so high in terms of what the will and so pay. Pay a share, shame. Well, you know, give us a bit of that then with Bradley Barclay. And who can blame them? You know, you look at what Manchester have spent this summer, you look at what spares or spent this summer, you know, huge, huge sums of money for players that are actually quite improving. And so Liverpool, that's what they're up against and they've arguably pushed that boundary further than anybody else. And I'll pay for it. But what will bringing Bradley Barclay in due for Liverpool then, if that's what they are going to do over the next week? Well, again, it's, it's confusing in the sense that he's a player who's had success off the left as a right footer player, cutting inside. And they're pretty well stocked for players in that position. You know, they've got Cody Gapal, whose future you might say is one say and there is interest in him. You've got Victor Munoz who plays on the right and actually played well. I thought when he came on the other day, you know, add a bit of spike in aggression, but his natural positions on the left, as is Rio and Gamoa. And then you're adding Bradley Barclay to that position. So who's going to play off the right? There's still a question. Unless they, you know, Liverpool have been talk throughout his club that wants to sign two plays in the wide areas. So maybe the other play will play off the right. But so it's still, you still, even if Barclay comes in, you're still in theory. We're going to have a lopsided squad, but you know, there's still what six days to go. So they might correct that. But yeah, I mean, you will give pace. I think that that's been the problem for Liverpool in the attacking areas, raw pace to get them high up the pitch, you know, to give Isaac the service and to give vet the space that he needs to play. So there's a little way to do really because, you know, that's just that's just one area of the team. You know, there's other areas at the moment, which, you know, there's been a lot of conversation about in midfield and then full back as well. So I don't think Liverpool's problems are easy to rectify. Seb, just just one last question for you before we let you go because I want to get a bit more into Florian Verts again, because I suppose the big question is, I mean, you talked about his role at Biolava Cousin, but also it worked because of the players he had around him. And during that time on the Javier Lonser, I mean, he's very much regarded as one of the best attacking midfielders in the world. So it's the real question is, how do Liverpool get the best out of him? How do they work with what they've got now? And I think where I'd start, it's probably the recognition that Verts is a combinations player. So he needs to have players around him to understand what he's trying to do and react quickly to what, to the things he tries, because he's also quite an optimistic player. He will play risky balls. When he's feeling confident, when he's feeling good about his game, he will take chance in possession. I think just to build on something that Sai said there, Liverpool have to get better in a lot of positions. Like, I'm not, if you compare that left side currently, if you're saying that the Liverpool's first choice is, and guys correct me if I'm wrong, Kirk has it left back. Gakpo left side of midfield at the moment. That's inferior to what he played around at Levycuse. There's no way I take Kirk has over Gromaldo. I don't think that Gakpo, I think Gakpo is a good player. I just think he's a good player in the wrong situation, because he slows the ball down quite a lot. And I want someone that's a little bit more aggressive, whether that is in Gamoa or eventually Barclay. I think the quicker things happen around Verts, the more you play into his sort of, his playmaking ideas and his instinctive feel for the game. And I know this is a little bit of a media, wishy-washy, fence-sitting response. When I watch him play at the moment, two things strike me. First of all, in his first year, I thought he struggled physically, which is entirely understandable. Any Bundesliga players moving them will say pretty much the same thing about having to gain weight and having to put on muscle mass and having to do that whilst also playing, which is tremendously difficult. The second thing, he seems more inside his own head than I've ever seen him. He thinks about what he's doing. There's a slowdown to his possession. There's an extra touch where at Levycuse and you see him dart in between a defender or player first-time pass, whereas now there's this hesitancy, which is just really difficult for him to co-exist with, because that's the essence of his footballs to make decisions quickly. It's just not there. And whether that's confidence in himself, confidence in what surrounds him, confidence in the overall shape of the side and the aims of the teams are high. I don't know, but that has to go. I know I sound like a little bit of a Bundesliga shell. That's kind of a job, right? It's in my job title to be that guy, right? But I haven't lost any belief in for him, VS. I'm losing a little bit of belief in his abilities to succeed in this situation. And I think things need to be corrected around him. I think he needs to grow as a result of those corrections. He certainly bears some responsibility for that. But it's a Simon's already said, this is complicated. It's not as easy as just pointing him and going, you're a waste of money. That is really to misunderstand what a football team is built out of. So, I'm interested to watch it, and I'm on that reference to succeed, but it needs more than just one factor to change, I think. Seb, thank you so much. I really appreciate you coming on and always good to get your insight. Thanks for having me. I think it would be unfair, wouldn't it, to pin all of Liverpool's issues on Florian vs. a much has been made since Sunday's tour, drawing a new castle of just how easy Liverpool's midfield was to play through. They've considered nine goals via fast breaks in all competitions since the start of last season. That is more than any other Premier League team. Another thing that Jamie Carriger was talking about on Monday night football was whether they've got enough defensively minded players in their midfield. What do you make of that? Yeah, I understand that criticism, but then Liverpool did win the league in 2425 with slot repositioning or repurposing Gravenberg as a number six and Gravenberg is still in there. It's just sometimes about finding the right balance between votes, sub-aslide, Gravenberg, McAllister, whichever of the free that you're picking or out of the four, whichever free that you're picking and making sure that they complement each other in the best way and Seb was sort of alluding to that from an attacking perspective, but that's also very important from a defensive perspective. Do these guys understand that their responsibilities have to change slightly when when versus at the club. Do they need to sit a little bit deeper and protect the back for a little bit more and the two goals they can see did against Newcastle are sort of a consequence of Gravenberg and sub-aslide pushing really high up the pitch and just leaving this massive space to vacate. So that might be as simple as a conversation that Ereola has with all three of them to say when you're on the pitch revert, one of you has to sit slightly deeper. But I sort of alluded to it earlier, but I do think it's also impacted by the fact that that defense has just been a little bit chaotic over the last year as well, right? You know, the midfield is not going to feel 100% stable if the defense is not 100% stable. If you're switching from kind of Bradley to Frimpong and they're both picking up injuries. If you're then playing Curtis Jones at right back, if Kirk is not settling into the team straight away and you're bringing in Robertson back in a little bit, if an artist is just having an absolutely wild season and dropping clangers every single week, that's also going to impact what's going on further up the pitch. So I think it's all connected. Would you agree with that side? Yeah, I think that area of the pitch is a problem for Liverpool, another area of the pitch that's a problem for Liverpool, which area isn't you might ask. You know, on Sunday against Newcastle, one thing that I was encouraged by was the full backs. What there would be an ask to do, not their execution, there would be an ask to be aggressive, get tight to the marker, try and play a few yards further up the pitch. It didn't work, but you could tell that they were trying to carry out some of the manager wanted to do. Now, I agree with Jay's points, Liverpool still have pretty much the personnel in midfield that won them the title two seasons ago. The difference being in that team, the two full backs would be an ask to not contribute quite as much in an attack and sense. Andy Robertson barely got forward, which gave them the cover at the back against the counter quite a lot. Now, I'm going to contradict myself into some degree because both full backs are asked to get forward more, which is leaving them more exposed. I don't think you can ask the full backs to get forward. And then all the midfields to get forward because you ask, then ask a lot for your defense, your two, your two man's offense. Let's not forget this is a time where Vegel Van Dyke is, you know, he's not getting any younger. So he doesn't have that recovery speed that he had, you know, three, four, five years ago, where underclop, you know, Liverpool could go forward at will because Van Dyke was there. He's still a good player, but he's not the same player that he was. So I think that, you know, that is something that needs to be thought about. Sometimes as well, I just feel, you know, that the Liverpool players are very prepared to run forwards with aggression, enthusiasm. I sometimes get the sense that not as enthusiastic about running back. You know, that's an attitude issue that I would identify. You know, like on Sunday, I don't know, I'm repeating what people have said, but there's ample opportunity to get back, ample opportunity to make a foul, didn't happen, Newcastle scored. And that's happened far too often that they seem to be keen to get involved in the stuff that gets, you know, the obvious chair, but sometimes when you're running backwards and just doing the dirty stuff, they don't seem quite as interested in. I don't like that personally. You know, I think you've got to question them personnel and the assitudes at the players. Sometimes I think they got off lightly, actually, you know, some of the midfields who've been there for, you know, two, three, four years now. So I think that needs to be looked up. Let's talk about another player then that was that was brought in 12 months ago, because Newcastle fans made their feelings known on Alexander Esac's return to time sides on Sunday, the striker. Well, unable to silence those really, who booed his every touch of the ball. I mean, I feel like there's a feeling that you assume it's going to click at some point because of just how impressive he was at Newcastle, right? But he just looks a shadow of the player that he was when he was playing as football at St James's Park. Even when the penalty came up, he just stayed well, well away from that, didn't he? Is it just lacking in real confidence at the moment? What do you think is going on? Well, this is the thing again, you know, and it goes back to the veer to conversation that we had before, you know, in terms of what people's expectations are and impressions of actually what happens. But the reality is Alexander Esac and Florian Veer to be brought in, obviously, to play as a partnership, if you like. I think they played 14 games, a little pool. That's including the game on Sunday, which is not a lot at all. So the sample size is very small. You know, I think it's 503 minutes in total across 10 Premier League games where they've been on the pitch together at the same time. So, you know, it hasn't really been tested the partnership, if you like. So if Veer is struggling, it's going to be harder for Esac to perform. I will argue because he's relying on the service that's coming his way. One goal between them for assists. It's not great, you know, even even in that small sample size. So, you know, everything's connected at Liverpool, but everything seems disconnected as well. I was really disappointed by Esac's performance on Sunday. I just thought, you know, it's a game where he's going back to his old club, where he's going to be getting absolute abuse off the fans. And it was an opportunity for him to stick to fingers up at them and he just didn't, you know, he didn't get, he just didn't affect the game that much really. So it was another disappointment and another step in the wrong direction. I would say, but, you know, he strikes me as somebody who needs a hat trick or something to get his, you know, so proper, get a lift off on his Liverpool career. You know, the sad reality is the best performance I've seen from him involving Liverpool was for Newcastle against him in the final. It's two seasons ago. Oh, no. These are the things that the stage was set, wasn't it? Opening, opening weekend of the Premier League season, he's up against his former club. He just, he just could not take the opportunity at all. Well, I thought about this a little bit and I want to take you back to last summer when Mark Gays moved to Liverpool, falls through the last minute. So hang on with me here. Because at the time, I remember loads of people writing articles basically saying, ESA Convissa got their moves after kicking up a fuss and there's a real vindication of, of player power and Gays was the one who missed out unfortunately. But actually, 12 months on, ESA Convissa basically ruined their preseason. Both came back or tried too hard to come back and suffered long-term injuries and just had horrible seasons at their clubs as a result of that. And now we've seen Vissa, especially at the World Cup and in Sunday's game, maybe show that he's slowly getting back to his best. But ESA still hasn't shown that. So I think now I look back on those two players striking and think, actually, you're still sort of paying the consequences of all that time because you weren't conditioned properly. It took too long to get back up to speed. And I'm sure they'll say it was still worth it. They're still got their dream moves. But it just shows you how much of a ripple effect that's had and Gays, he eventually gets his move in January, goes on to win two cup competitions with Manchester City. So you'd say that he had a far better day-by-season than those two did. But it just crossed my mind because ESA convinced him we're both full of potentials. He sent me a warning message to some players. That's only Watkins, just be careful, be careful. So I obviously talked about the fact that, you know, that this partnership with Florian Verts, and if they're both kind of not clicking together, this is one of the big issues. Because when we look at ESAX last season at Newcastle, no two players combine more in terms of assisting and scoring than Jacob Murphy and Alexander ESAX with seven goals. So does that almost emphasize that need for them to really find that partnership? Yeah. So I said it, I think it was 500 and three minutes, which is just, yeah, ridiculously low amount. So they haven't really had the time to develop those connections. Seb mentioned earlier about the chemistry. When Verts was at his best with Levacuson, he doesn't have enough time to build up any chemistry. Or whenever they have shared the pitch together, there's been a lot of pressure or ESAX only just coming back into the team. He's not fully fit. He's only playing a half here or coming off the bench for 30 minutes. And as I said, right at the beginning, when you think of Liverpool in their prime over the last 10 years, you knew who the starting three were going to be. At what point in the last year has anybody confidently said, this is Liverpool's starting front free. You know, ESAX, Verts, and Salah Barely shared the pitch together. Gap has been a bit hit and miss. Angomoa, he's an incredible talent, but he's still only 17 years old. So none of it's going to work if there's no consistency to it. So we probably need to give them a little bit more time. And then if come October and November time, these guys are still not producing on the pitch. I think that's when you can say, we've had a sufficient amount of time playing together now where we should really be concerned. Yeah. And obviously Simon, Hugo Eckertike ruled out until what was it early, early next year. So in a way, for Liverpool that they're relying on ESAX, well, one being fit, but also making sure that he does find the back of the net. Well, yeah, I mean, he has to improve. There's lots of mitigation, you know, that's all fine, but the reality is, you know, if he doesn't perform Liverpool, they're going to struggle the season. You know, the whole shape of Liverpool's attack has changed with him signing really. You know, James mentioned it before about, you know, the established front three of the club era. In many ways, that's become sort of the barometer of what Liverpool supporters expect from there, from the front three. But the great thing about the club team was it didn't necessarily rely on one player. The track came from all three players and then other areas of the pitch, but when you sign up a strike like ESAX, it almost goes back to the Fernando Torres era where you rely on your number nine to put the ball on the back of the net and to be available. And obviously, ESAX hasn't been available for a big chunk of last season. Is it is, you know, is availability is going to have to be better. And you will assume it is availability is better is, is, you know, is output is going to be better. But I still think a lot depends on what Liverpool get through the door in the wide areas in the next week. I was just trying to do some maths on my calculator on my phone very quickly. And then to arithmetic. And I was only looking at the three seasons. He was at Newcastle for his availability. So he only played 86 out of 114 Premier League games in those three seasons. And he only started 78 out of 114. So his availability records never been amazing. And then if you factor in what happened last season, well, then his availability over the course of the four seasons, he's been in the Premier League drops off even more. So what I'm trying to say is I don't want to panic, Liverpool fans, I don't want to panic Simon, but historically, he's never been the most available, especially compared to like Salah, for example, who basically played every single minute. I remember Mane was pretty good as well. There are probably going to be times throughout the season where he is going to pick up a niggle or a knock and he's going to be out for a few weeks, et cetera. So I have to rely on him as your centre-forward until Eckertike returns in January. And the Eckertike Eckertike is coming back from a nasty Achilles injury. It's not like he's going to come back and he's going to score a hat trick straight away and what he might inevitably do it now that I've said it. But you know, I mean, he's going to need a little bit of time. And that probably links to as to why it probably doesn't make much sense from a Liverpool perspective to get rid of Gapo because Gapo can cover centrally down the middle. Well, Simon, there's been a lot of optimism, I would say, around Andoni Iriola's appointment. But I mean, just just given how last season's title defence played out, obviously it was a really disappointing season for Liverpool. And then you look at the lack of transfer activity this summer so far. I know there's still a week left in the window. Do you feel like he's been given the best chance to succeed at Liverpool? Well, the problems at Liverpool pre-exist his appointments. Obviously, when you appoint some manager, you expect them to manage it to correct some of those issues. So it is fair to say, you know, there is an expectation on him to get things right. But you just look at Liverpool at the moment and nothing really joins up. It doesn't seem like a joins up whether it's on the pitch or off the pitch. You've got FHG agreeing to sell a significant chunk of the club to new investors. Obviously that figure was subsequently revealed by the athletic as being higher than they face claims, which doesn't start well for the new relationship, I would say. So FHGSA, you know, that they want to stay, but it doesn't, you know, the direction suggests otherwise. Then you've got Richard Hughes, who's the sporting director, who is on his way out, expected to go to Saudi Arabia pretty soon. I expect to be an internal appointment to replace him, but nevertheless, it's more upheaval. So, you know, those two things are pretty big things, you know, that a manager manager is working underneath. It's far from ideal. You know, Liverpool for a long period of time, I think got it right, mostly because of the stability at the club and at the moment, it seems like anything but stable. And Iriola has a massive job on his hands anyway. You know, if you're coming in as Liverpool manager, mostly, you know, you're going to be held to the highest standards. And in his career so far, I mean, I will challenge what you said there in terms of, you know, the excitement around his appointments, among most people, I speak to a sort of on the fence with it a little bit. It's like clearly, he's a manager who's done well at Bournemouth, the way that he's done their merits and next step, but is that step a bit too big at Liverpool? Does he need to go somewhere else? Does he need to win a trophy? Does he need to try and win a league? This is what is the expectation at Liverpool, you know, to be not getting into the champions league or getting laden's competitions, it's winning stuff. And he doesn't have that track record yet. I do want to ask you both about because you've both referenced Richard Hughes at different points. What would you make or how would you assess his time as a sporting director? Well, like I said, the free summer windows that he's been in charge of, the first one where Liverpool only signed Federico Kieze. I think they might have signed Mamadashvili, but knocked it on for a year, ended up being weathered by design or by accident, quite an intelligent thing to do. The squad clearly didn't need that much evil towards the end of young club's reign, but then it did give them issues a year later in the 2025 summer transfer window when they spent too much. But I know slot got sacked after two years, but if you'd offered Liverpool fans after the end of the club era, in the next two seasons, you're going to win a league title. I think every single Liverpool fan would have snapped your hands off of that. So on that, he's done a pretty good job. But I think what's happened maybe over the last year, 18 months is a little bit more messy. Si made a fantastic point earlier. He always does. But Liverpool have known about them. I haven't had salad situation since. Well, it was kicking off even before Si and I went to Afghan in January. So Si and I made that famous comment in the mix only in December. So you've probably known since the Liverpool probably know since December, the chances are this guy leaving are extremely high. And yet you've left it until the end of the summer transfer window to get a replacement in and you might not even get in a replacement for him. That's poor planning. That's poor, you know, you're not conducting yourself in the right way. Allowing canate. Yes, I know I've sort of criticized canate throughout the entire show until he had a bad season, but still allowing a France international who's played regularly for you over the last few years contributed to a lot of success. To allow him to leave, to join Real Madrid on a free, that's got to sting. So there's so many decisions that have been made, which even the wrong decision has been made, or a decision has been delayed, and then it's caused more issues further down the line. So these are the big gripes that the fans have got at the moment. Well, Richard Hughes is shoulder and a lot of the criticism at the moment. You know, even when he does leave the club, regardless of what happens over the next week, really, because he won't be around or in position when we see whether what happens proves to be successful. And it reminds me a lot of like Tamiya and Komole was in charge at Tottenham. There was a big overhaul of players. He brought a load of players in one of them being Gareth Bale, who, you know, took him a fair amount of time to get it right at Spares and, you know, years later, Komole was like, see, I was right, I was right all along. You know, I suppose that is sort of the life of a sport and director to some extent. I just don't like the way this summer. It's unravelals really. You know, people tell me, you know, it's businesses, usual Liverpool and Richard Hughes is acutely aware that his reputations on the line, if he doesn't sort of get it right. But I would question why FSG have allowed somebody who either doesn't want to be there or they don't want him to be there because he haven't renewed his contract. Oversee, this, this period of crucial importance at Liverpool where you've got legendary figures like Muhammad Salah and he Robertson leaving the club. He's just basically being allowed to sort of oversee that. I find it quite bizarre. I've got to be honest, because you know, if you're a player or an agent's wanting to join Liverpool, thinking about joining Liverpool, maybe the reputation of the club is so big that people will say, well, you know, it's Liverpool, I don't really care, I'm not playing for the sport and director as such. But if you've got an option of Liverpool or a, I know the big club, you might say, well, you know, this guy doesn't want to be there. Why should I be there? It'd be a thing that you use against them, almost a thing to, you know, a crush against them. So there's a lot of things, again, it just doesn't, things just don't add up at Liverpool at the moment. Across pretty much every level. And when you have that, you know, it makes everything very difficult for the manager to succeed. Now, what I will say is this isn't just a pass for Andoni Iriola. I mean, I remember one of the wear seasons in Liverpool's sort of history. If you like in terms of institutional history was in 2008, 2009 where you had two owners who couldn't stand the site of each other when talking and we're trying to sell a club is the club sort of career towards a financial implosion. And you have somehow the managed to get it right on the pitch. So, you know, you can, in spite of all the things around you, you know, perform to a high level. But, you know, you need to have something about years as either. I was just going to say, you know, Richard uses reputation on the line is on the line. Well, it's not really because we've known for months that he's probably going to go to Al Hallow and the Saudi pro league, right? So, that's already been lined up. But often the job of a sporting director in the transit market is to pitch to agents to potential new signings. So, let's hyperfittingly say that Liverpool are trying to sign Barclay. Well, Richard, who's will be in that meeting with Bradley Barclay saying, oh, this is this is the vision for Liverpool over the next two, three, four years. This is what it's going to look like. He's not even going to be there. So, so how would you use Barclay? And your his agents in that setting take that with a level of a seriousness. And so I also hit the nail on head. It's strange that FSG have let Richard use overseas a window when he's going. And this exact situation happened with spurs last year, where on September 4th last year, right after the end of the window, the Lewis family, the majority shareholders decided to get rid of Daniel Levy. And I just couldn't understand why they've made that decision at the end of the window, especially because Levy had, you know, such a prominent role in the negotiations over Eze and Semenio. You've let this guy run your strategy in the transit market. And then as soon as the window closed gone, yeah, you're not good enough. I just can't quite make sense of it. I know it's not easy to recruit these people like they need to be highly skilled. The best ones are not always available, but it's still just strange how clubs go into windows and let people who are not going to be their long-term dictate policy. So just to wrap up then, I mean, Nottingham Forest come to Anfield on the weekend. Forest, of course, one, they last two visits up at Anfield, including a three-year win under Sean Dyshe as well last season. I know you remember that. But how important is it that for Eriola, you know, at home at Anfield of all places, he gets off to a winning start in front of the home fans? Well, I used to think that, you know, it was the it was sort of the match going fans that dictated the music Liverpool really. Last season was the first time where I really saw sort of attitudes online, spill into what was happening at Anfield. Now don't get me wrong, it wasn't good enough under slot last season, but things very quickly online tend against him very quickly, like spectacularly quickly. Now, I do wonder whether there's a change in dynamic amongst the match going Liverpool fan base, but traditionally it has been a fan base that gives the manager a bit of time to sort of get his ideas across. I think increasingly that that amount of time it is narrow and at most clubs, but as well as Liverpool. Forest is not going to be an easy game for Liverpool. Obviously, they've lost. They've lost last weekend's lead. They've lost again in the league cup against the leads. It's not just forest. It's all of a glasner who's done a number on Liverpool three times, I think last season. It's a game that you just think it's going to be a bit of a slog, particularly with the being the early kickoff as well. For some reason, Liverpool haven't been great with the early kickoff, although he has had a week to prepare for this game. So they're going to have to start fast and they're going to have to be aggressive and they're going to have to make some files and get people on the sides and make Amfields a bit more hostile at that time of day to get on soccer, not in forest. But yeah, he will get support. I have no doubts about that in sort of amongst the match going from base, but I just wonder sort of how long the patience will run out. It will run for him because it's been well documented how at Bournemouth, it took him a bit of time to get across his ideas. This is a thing with Iriola. He's going from Bournemouth, which is a club which has very little easier attention to Liverpool where you've got the eyes, the worlds, and after one game, people say and that is tactics can't work when they've drawn at Newcastle with a 95 minute equalism penalty. You know, that's the pressure that he's under. I mean, this is what you sign up for, though, right? It's one of the most scrutinised clubs in the world. Yeah, well, obviously I saw it happen last year with Thomas Frank at Bournemouth and Brentford very similar clubs, very similar size, similar stories coming up through the EFL into the Premier League, managers over achieving in Iriola and Frank. It didn't work out for Frank. He struggled with the amount of scrutiny and attention. He got famously culminating in him holding an Arsenal coffee cup, and I guess as long as Iriola doesn't hold an everton cappuccino cup, then he might get a bit more time. Still not sure how that happened to him. It's all drink cappuccino and effort and come on. Gravy. On that note, we'll wrap it up. Sai, thank you. Thank you. Always good to get your thoughts. Jay, thank you as well. Still managed to get spurs in. And big thanks to Seb for joining us earlier on as well. Remember to keep across the athletic for the very latest in the transfer window as well as building up to another weekend of Premier League action. Kate Mason will be with you tomorrow. We'll see you soon.