The Specter of Pep: Tactical Dogma and Football's Alternative Timelines

What if one of the most decorated coaches of all time never actually became a manager? The origin story for Jose Merinio, like almost treats that as the moment where he is like everything that this man stands for now, I'm going to try and do the opposite. I think Burnley would benefit. No, I think he wouldn't have stuck to his guns up Burnley and they would have gone forward too to stay up and maybe finish top 10. Hello and welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Emma Payton. We have a brand new series for you. This is What If. We'll dive into the game's biggest sliding doors moment and discuss how life might look on an alternative timeline. So what if Roman Abramovich bought spurs instead of Chelsea and What if Brazilian Ronaldo went injury free? Let's find out, shall we? Well, with me today for episode one is the Athletics Tim Spears and John McKenzie. Gents, welcome along. I feel like we're going to have some fun on this podcast. Tim, tell our listeners, tell our viewers what they can expect from this series. So I guess we're going to combine like nostalgia, which we all are talking about, but also with predictions, which are like so huge in football now. Like, you know, we all love looking back to when football was was better and everybody thinks football was better, you know, but in the past, no matter what generation you're from. But we all love like predicting things. It's like there are huge industries devoted, predicting things. All we do on podcasts is speculate like, what's going to happen next? So I guess on this pod was sort of going to ponder sort of, you know, what if, what if a manager didn't get sacked, what if so? So I didn't score 90th mini winner and look at like alternative realities and histories grounded in facts and knowledge, hopefully. But we're going to have fun. That's key here. John, I mean, you have literally written a book about today's subject. So hold up the book. I mean, there's one behind you as well, but the specter of Pep. So our focus today is Mr. Pep Guardiola. What if one of the most decorated coaches of all time never actually became a manager? What would that mean for the Premier League? What would it mean for Manchester City? I mean, crucially, what would it mean for the greatest player of all time in lean or messy? I mean, John, you obviously have been working on this book for a long time for the last couple of years. Tell us about that, but also just give us a bit of context into Pep's career for those people that have been living under a rock for the past 15 years. Yeah. So the book is actually about the last 15 years of tactics history. And it hangs off Guardiola, who has influenced that. So the reason why I've called it the specter of Pep is because it's not just about him. It's about the influence that he's had on others. And he sort of forms this ghostly presence that a lot of people couldn't get away from for a long time and arguably still can't get away from now. But his ideas are still pervasive, all the stuff, all the same. But yeah, in terms of Guardiola, I mean, I feel silly just explaining to people how Guardiola is good at doing this. But anyone who's been living under a rock? If I could read like a little section from the book, where he covers his achievements from a trophy or point of view. So in the 15 seasons that followed his miracle year in 2009, Guardiola only failed to win a league title four times, one of which came during a season where he took a sabbatical from football altogether. In fact, up to the 2425 season, the only season in his career where he hadn't won a major trophy was the 2016-17 season, his first amongst us to city. Add to this, the fact that during this 15 season spell, he only failed to win a knockout tournament in two of them. And it's hard to argue that there's been a more successful coach in elite European football than Guardiola, at least when it comes to trophy hall. But the book itself is also about the wider picture as well, the influences that he has. So again, I use a quote from Fabio Capello in the book where he describes the Guardiola era as one of the three greatest legacies in the modern history of football after the Dutch school and Arrigo Sacki's AC Milan. And then Gary Neville, Apanda and former Manchester United, this is from the book. People know who Gary Neville is. He said, the way that Guardiola infiltrated countries, dominated football, but also influenced others, I don't think I've ever seen anything like it. Would you say he's the most influential coach ever? I love the book reading, but it's like story time. I know, just like just my eyes were dropping over there. I mean, it's hard to judge. I'd say probably the most influence, influential would probably be the guy who influenced Pepp, your own Christ. I think he's probably sort of the daddy of influences. You know, if you're going to do like a, like a bit of a sort of family tree, like, you know, who do you think you are? Then I guess, Christ. Where did it all start? Yeah, I guess so. Certainly, certainly this era, I think in, I think in modern English football, and it's easy to take the Premier League as that sort of line. It's hard to argue with him, being the most influential in England, like some of the arson vengua would obviously deserve a mention in that conversation. He changed a lot in terms of tactics and like diet and nutrition in particular with what he did at arson 90s, but I think he kind of sacrificed winning for style a little bit. So people kind of maybe saw that and didn't didn't follow him as much. And then you got Sir Alex Ferguson, obviously, but I'm not sure how influential he was on other managers, because who else can be Fergie? He was such an all-encompassing manager for a start, which is a bit of an outdated concept. And also he sort of ruled with fear, which is also becoming more of an outdated concept. So I'm not sure, I think, I think where he falls short Ferguson is if you look at his disciples, I don't know, that's something we'll get onto with Pepp later. People like Steve Bruce or Soul Shire or Paul Ins or Brian Robson, no one really followed Fergie and had big success, which makes you think as in trophy winning success, which makes you think that he's sort of one of a kind, but now we're seeing others influenced by Pepp winning big trophies, which I think shows his sort of more immediate influence. Michael Carrick could have big success still, by the way. Yes, it's a big could. But I think like the thing with Pepp is when you've got non-league teams, trying to copy his style in a Barrow, Solona would be the sort of the best example. That's still like blows my mind, that five tears down and below, people are trying to copy what this guy's done. So that would that suggests influential. In influential terms, he's the most influential. He could maybe throw in Jose Maria as well from a process point of view because his concept of tactical periodization is just now the norm. Every basically professional club uses that approach, but from a more tactical point of view, I would say less of an influence there, but definitely the process of how to train football players to do what they do. Just just on tactics then, which obviously what the book is heavily about, talk to us about the historic treble winners in 2008-2009, because this Barrow loaner team was made up of the lights of Javi, Iniesta, Busquets, Messy of course as well. And I mean, I say treble winner that they won everything, didn't they? Yeah, yeah. It's really impressive trophy hall for them that season. I think one of the stories that I tell in my book is that you get this really weird phenomenon with Guardiola, where a lot of people hold that Barcelona team up with a little bit of reverence, as you know, treble winning Barcelona side. And then the further you go through Guardiola's career, people start falling off the train a little bit and saying, oh, you know, he's lost me now. I don't enjoy, you know, the later iterations of Manchester City. And I think that's a really interesting phenomenon. I think the reason is is that Tim alluded before to Arson Venga and the fact that he may be sacrificed aesthetics, sorry, winning for aesthetics. I think the opposite is true for Guardiola through his time. His big thing is I want to win. I'm going to do whatever it takes to win. And at first he can do that with this fantastic team in a very aesthetic way. You've mentioned already that, you know, that famous midfield Messy as well, but you've got Samuel Leto, you've got Tiarion Rhee, an incredible defensive player as well, Victor Valder's in goal. And I think at this point, right at the beginning of his evolution of his tactical ideas, he has the ability to be quite risky and play good football on win. Three time, it becomes harder and harder to play that more riskier football, so it becomes more and more risk averse. And I think as a result, it becomes less attractive. But in many respects, the fact that it becomes less attractive is a it attest to the fact that it was a successful way of playing. So yeah, I think that's what's really interesting about that Barcelona team in particular that, you know, that's that's almost like the most unfiltered like Pep Guardiola winning and aesthetic. And by the time you get to the end, it's like, well, you've got the winning, well, I mean, the very end, you don't know that even the winning, right? But by the end, you've definitely gone from risk, the needle swinging from risk to risk aversion. And often, that's what football fans want. They want the risk. They want the exciting, attacking football. They don't want the patient passing play and the rest defense and all of the things that come with them. His influence hasn't come without criticism. Has it left any brahimovich has been focal previously saying that he didn't sort of deal with with problems properly. There have been others, the likes of, I don't know, Jack Greenish at Manchester City, kind of losing a spot. I think messy, we could come on to a little bit later. What do you make of that side of things? I think it's probably a fair accusation in terms of like the programming of footballers. Greenish is like the poster boy for that, really. I think sometimes there can be a sort of a lack of room for individuality and like freedom of expression. And that's, look, his record goes without saying. So that's not necessarily criticism. But we have seen city players like struggle to reproduce their form, particularly on the international front, Phil Foden will be, again, another sort of prominent example for that. However, I mean, if you ask, if you asked Greenish, would he prefer more of a free role and score a couple of wonder goals, or would he prefer to adhere to his manager's instructions for his 150 grand a week and win a treble? Do you know what I mean? I think he'd take the latter. Also, he had a free role as sort of Villa pre-city because he was their best player by a mile. And that's not a new story. Players stands out at a smaller club as sort of their best free player and goes to a bigger club and his, you know, program to do some of different. I feel like I mentioned my team was in every single progress to do. However, Matthias Kunya, like two seasons ago, he was basically allowed to walk. He walked more than any player in the whole league for all of that season, but he also scored 15 goals and got like 10 assists. And then he went to Man United and of course, he has to adapt and play more of a team. Also, everybody does it. You know, Wayne Rooney would be another very famous example of his ultimate sort of street footballer, Everton, doing what he wants and then Fergie kind of, you know, coached all that out of him. But the results were spectacular, obviously. So that's not, that's not exclusive to Pep. It's a shame for football fans, I guess, that it sort of has to be that way, but winning is obviously all the matters, especially it's to someone like Pep. Okay, before we get into today's alternative timeline, which is actually part I'm really excited about because that is where we really can have a load of fun. A big part of Guardiola's legacy is his media persona, sometimes charming. Otherwise, I suppose you could say, he was pretty blunt, you know, in front of the camera. So I'm wondering if you can each pick out a favourite Pep quote, producer Mike has suggested the more than you believe quote. You don't seem that happy that you've won. More than you believe. More than you believe, I'm happy. You aren't showing it. I'm so happy, believe it. I'm so happy, happy new year. But it was the way he said it wasn't it was the, it was the delivery, his face is basically saying the complete opposite. So what do we think to him? Well, there's, I mean, there's sort of a, there's a new one that's just come out in the past couple of weeks to be honest. That's the one I got. Well, there's a few from the sort of, from the Amazon stuff, the one about his wife and his divorce. I mean, just absolutely blew my mind when I saw it. But another one, actually from quite recently from, I think it was last season, when his press conferences could be quite dull. I think he, I don't think he liked dealing with the press and his answers could be like quite monotonous. But I don't know if you saw this last year, you might have seen it. He had some like, there was some young Tatico in the press conference who brought up a match from 2006 involving Spain and Tunisia. And he asked like a minute long question. And Pep just immediately zones in on him and he's like, what? Who's, who's this guy? And like he pretty much starts like smiling and he's this stunned expression on his face. And the guy's asking about a narrow fluid front three for like a minute, basically. And then he just goes back and he's like, F in hell, you are brilliant. Do you want to be my assistant coach? Bring me in, Pep. You are my biggest inspiration to get in football, I would say so. I thought, I've such a nice moment just says so much about, you know, his, his love and obsession for Tatics. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I had the, the quote about his, his wife. I just think it's a crazy one. I want to confess something. I'm divorced for the most, the most beautiful woman in your planet is my wife. My ex wife. I love her. And believe me, but we lost the passion. For many reasons, we lost the passion. I love that. Yeah, absolutely. She loved me yet, but we lost the passion. So you play football because you're great, or what's that thing inside? What are you in the passion? And you learn, whatever you like to do, do it with passion. I know, well, I won't play it. I won't play it with passion. No, great, great. But interestingly enough, I again, having done the book, I, not particularly quotable manager, considering he's been around for so long, he doesn't really throw a lot of stuff out there for, for, there can be, you know, there's a lot of other coaches who, who have that ability to just have a turn of phrase, whereas he just hasn't, and partly, I think because his English never really got to a really good level to be able to do that. I don't know whether or not that was just a media ploy on his part. But yeah, they're actually just thinking through this. I was, I went searching for some of the quotes and I was like, yeah, it's remarkable how few quotes he has compared to. So we use surprise, but what you saw on the, on the documentary. Yes and no, I was, I guess the most surprised I had was was was just how candid it was. Like, even that quote there that we just read out the one about his wife is, is being filmed like through the legs of a player and it gives it a real, it sort of gives it a real like fly on the wall element to to that. And I was just surprised that they'd agreed to go through it because it ends up being quite, I mean, I guess they didn't know how bad it was going to be when they agreed to do it, but it ended up being quite a tendentious period really for him. But you feel like he got into the kind of his mindset and where he was out, especially towards the end of his time at city. Yeah. And I think what it does a really good job of doing is getting across that passion because that quote carries on and says, I don't, I want players who are passionate. He's like the reason why I'm divorcing my wife is because we don't have passion anymore, where's it gone? And you players are the same and want players with passion. And I think that's that aspect often gets underplayed with with Guadiola. He's often held up as the tactic over versus the, you know, the man manager, Carlo Angelotti or something like that, whereas I think no great manager is able to do what they do without being able to transmit ideas to the players and get the players on board with what they're doing. And I think he's fantastic at it. And I think a big part of it comes from what you were talking about in his, his obsession. The fact that he so clearly loves the game that I, and you know, I think that you can say about Guadiola, something you can't say about a lot of other big coaches, which is for the most part, most fans quite like him. I don't think there's a lot of fans who, for example, Jürgen Klopp, who I think is probably more personable than Guadiola in many ways. A lot of people I know, just anecdotally, just really don't like him. They don't like the way he comes across, maybe because he's a, he was a bit of a sore loser at time. At times, whereas with Guadiola, I think that that obsessive quality that he has where you, you just watch him interact with people. The famous example of him talking to Nathan Redmond on the football fields, things like that. I think people recognize this guy's just face value. He's, he's not playing a game really. He's just, he's there and he's, he wants to play, he wants his team to play the game better. He wants people to play the game better, even if they're not on his team. And so he'll spend time talking to Nathan Redmond saying, here's how you can improve. And I think that kind of obsession is, is infectious for people. People respect that because they, they, I think it's almost, it's, it's a form of honesty, right? You're just putting yourself out there and a lot of football, other football managers, I think have very clever ways of deflecting that. And I just think with him, you get everything. They start about his wife slash ex wife. If he was using it as a motivational tool, then they're lost their next two after that. So I didn't work. I think the players lie this too much. Yeah, yeah. That's, that's honesty, right? That he's literally coming out and saying, this is what's going on in my life. What's going on in yours? And I think, you know, it's you, you're watching it and you're thinking, should they be putting this out on TV? Is this, is this what should be happening? So there is a good, good look behind behind the curtain, wasn't it? I can't believe neither of you said the quote where he said one of his big idols was Julia Roberts. Oh my god, that's so good. Yeah, because she actually turned up a manual actually, I think, right, idols were and he said, I think it's in Michael Jordan Tiger Woods, and then Julia Roberts, it was like, right, yeah, it's a little bit random. But then she turned up a old traffic that way and he basically disowned her, I think. All right, was that like, yeah, you're my idol, don't come. So what does life look like? Then without PEP, say in 2006, so when he decides to retire from football, he takes up a completely different career or he never joins Barcelona. Tim, you've already talked about the, what the family tree and you know, and Christ being the man at the top. But Guadalupe is famously said he knew nothing about football until he met the old hand Christ during Christ's time, of course, at Barcelona. So maybe, you know, if he never crosses paths with the old hand Christ, maybe, you know, he doesn't even end up at Barcelona. Yeah, maybe. I don't know, the Christ, we're kind of, what's that TV show? Who do you think you are? Yes. We kind of, we need one of those like family trees, don't we? Because I think, I think Christ sort of influenced so many. Obviously, so many in the Dutch game, you think of like Ronald Kuhman, Reichard Van Hal, and then others at Barcelona, like Lucy and Rike, Chavvy, can be a lot of ambassador and like loud drop. I guess, well, Pepp sort of taken Christ's idea and developed it without Christ, like football history just looks very, very different, you know. I also wonder like, his kind of, he has a obsession with Barcelona and Christ, and I just wonder if he goes back to Barcelona one day, and that would be maybe the only club job that he would go back to post city. What do you think, John? Yeah, that's a good, good show. I can't see you else, he wouldn't imagine anyone else in England, you know. I think just him taking this break now is interesting, because I just wonder if he'll take a break and be like, you know, well, this is great. I'm not going to go back to football at all. I could see him also going into the international game as well as something a bit different, but yeah, I could see him going back to, I don't know, maybe Barcelona, but there's a lot of coaches who I think are very well aware of, like that was a period in my life, and I don't want to ruin it. And you know, that's, it's such a perfect encapsulation of like, what are the all of that, that that four-year period that he maybe would leave it alone. Jose, back at Real, back at Barcelona one day. It would be box office. I mean, we should actually know as well, and you will know this if you've watched the Jose Mourinho sort of documentary recently. I mean, Jose could have ended up at a Barcelona instead of Pep in 2008. In 2013, the Barcelona president, Johan Laporta said that Mourinho wanted to come to Barcelona, but it wasn't possible because we had decided to sign Guardiola as coach. Jose Mourinho had worked at Barcelona. He'd been there under Bobby Robson and Lou Van Hal as well, and you see in this Netflix documentary that he's very much known as the translator. But I mean, what a different time like that could have been if Jose ended up at Barcelona. Yeah, I know Jonathan Wilson has written some really good pieces on this. In fact, his book, The Barcelona Legacy, goes into this length. I think Wilson very much sees this as like the origin story for Jose Mourinho, like getting to the short list of two and just expecting, well, they're not going to hire this football who's done nothing over me. In terms of management. Yeah, exactly. I mean, in terms of management, I'm just going to, I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to shoot in for this job. It doesn't get it. And then almost treats that as the moment where he is, is like everything that this man stands for now. I'm going to try and do the opposite. And I think it's just a, it's really fascinating narrative, narrative tweak. And then you get that nice tension between them. And obviously the final season at Barcelona is when, is when Mourinho's at Real Madrid and they manage just to get that, I can't remember. There's a hundred, many, many goals, 101 goals. I don't know. I should have checked this before I went on. No, no, no. It was such a rivalry, wasn't it, when they were both there that season at both of the, the huge clubs in the league. Yeah, but it's an interesting point because obviously Mourinho is nice, anonymous with Real Madrid, especially now he's gone back. But he was a passer for like four years, 96 to 2000. He then goes away to manage Porto and you know, the rest is history with him. But it would make complete sense for him to, to go back to Barcelona at some point in theory, you know, sort of going, going back sort of 15 years. But the thought of it now makes the complete opposite of, of sense, you know, his sort of abrasive like pragmatic style. He just wouldn't have worked there. Like, would he, would he even have dared to, to enlist that kind of style, Mourinho? Because like, you know, you don't just need to win at Barcelona, you need to win with style. When he was with Bobby Robson, there's a, there's a fantastic Bobby Robson documentary, I think it's called More Than Manager. And they focus on a lot of that time at Barça. And, anyway, at one point they were winning them at six nil. And the Barça fans were getting all the, getting the white hankies out. And basically saying, yeah, it was going to be rare, but I can't know. So despite the sort of victory, the fans were waving the hankies because, because the football wasn't good enough, someone had a banner. Oh, no, I think there was a headline in a, in a newspaper which said, Barcelona wins six nil, but playing no football. Right. So if you imagine sort of Mourinho going into that, there's no way that he would have enlisted his normal sort of pragmatic style, you know, the idea of like him telling in yesterday to bulk up and play like the Maccalailly role. Like, I don't know, you can't see it. Or signing like Drogbo to hold the ball up. You know, I can't really imagine it. But even the sliding doors element here is that like maybe Mourinho doesn't end up being the pragmatist that he becomes because he feels jilted by Barcelona. Maybe we see a completely different Jose Mourinho emerging from out of that period. Would we have seen a differently in our messy? I'm not sure we would have, but I mean over the four seasons that he was managed by Pep Guardiola, he played 219 games, 221 goals, 91 assists. They were 14 trophies, four ball and doors as well. I mean, yeah, I don't think there's any stopping. No, I don't think you would find either way. I think that maybe the more interesting version of that question is, what would Pep have been like without, without messy? I mean, I know that's not the slightly. It's not the podcast. It's not the one. Yeah. And there's, I think there's a lot of people who will always hold that against Guardiola and say, well, you did it with with great players. But again, you know, the rest of that team, we've already run through it. They were incredible. I think they probably would have managed either way. I've actually got some other what ifs in terms of what could have happened around that period. So Guardiola is a Barcelona B team in 2007, previous season before he becomes a boss in 2008. Luis Enrique was supposed to take over from, take over head of Pep that Barcelona B team in 2007. So there could have been a world in which Luis Enrique was the the guy he took over instead of instead of Pep when when when he takes over in 2008. So a little one there and then Arson Venger to come back to the name that you mentioned before. He was on the shortlist as well to replace Reichard along with Pep and Maurinho. So there's a world in which Arson Venger has made the Barcelona manager as well. And those are just a couple a couple of like sliding doors moments there as well. Yeah. Interesting alternatives. What do you think would have happened differently to Lionel Messi if anything if there was no Pep Guardiola? Well, obviously, obviously the whole Ballandor, you know, the goat race sort of changes as well with Messi and Ronaldo. Yeah. But but it's not just as simple as saying Ronaldo gets all the Ballandors because, you know, they spurred each other on so much, I think. In terms of Ballandors, it's eight, eight five to Messi. So if you take Messi out, literally just take Messi out the voting and look at who would have gotten more turnatively. Ronaldo would have got three. He finished second to Messi on I think three occasions. Well, no, four occasions. So he goes to nine. But other Ballandor winners would have included 2010 in Yester in his second row of Messi. 2019, Virgil Van Dyke would have got it instead of if there was no Messi. 2021 was Levin Dowski. And 23 was Harland. So but yeah, although I think, you know, the rivalry sort of spurred him and Ronaldo or so much. And they've spoken about it. They're both sort of, you know, were striving for perfection. And it still irks Ronaldo now that he didn't get his ballandor. I was in, you did the interview with Piers Morgan about 18 months ago and Piers Morgan was like, how did you know that Wayne Rooney said Messi's the goat and Ronaldo's answer was hilarious. He said about eight times. It's fine. It's okay. There is a lot of discourse around. I mean, you actually mentioned earlier, John, if he hadn't had the players, you know, what would we have seen from Pep Guardiola? I suppose you could say the same if he wasn't managing the clubs that he's managed. So we talked about Barcelona by Munich after that. And then Manchester City, you know, would it be a different timeline if he took, let's just say a mid-table club in the Premier League? Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. But I don't know. I think the money question is a valid question, right? There's, there's, there's the things that Guardiola achieved. He has to do it with the players that he has. And you know, there's some nice quotes in the book where he essentially says the way I want to play. If you don't have the players to do it, forget about it. So he's very aware of that. And we'll often say I couldn't have done this without the players. But at the same time, I guess the, the, the metaphor I always use is, is, if you have a Ferrari, you take it to a specialist garage. You don't take it to your local health. That's what we're talking about when we're talking about elite coaching. It's, you want a guy who you know is going to be able to use those, those players to the best of their ability, which is why you then end up getting these specialist coaches like Guardiola, who, who is able to get, give, I mean, to put it in really cold, hard terms, like good return on investment, right? If you're putting that much money into a football team, you want to have the guy who's going to get the most out of those players. So it's a sort of chicken egg situation for me. It's like, well, yeah, it would have been different for him. But the reason why he's coached all the good teams is because everyone knew that he would have done, he was going to do a good job with those, with those players. So yeah. But say, say, I don't know, say you got the press in the job or something. My David Moise, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's another sliding doors moment. Like, you know, he's got, he's got, he's got no budget, you know, alpha devise is best than that. He's, he's only decent player. Like, what, how long, what does, what does he do tactically, do you think for a start? Yeah. I mean, there's a good question. I think you need to distinguish between the, the tactical over the top stuff, but then also the, the ability to improve individuals. And I think the Guardiola would have that regardless what level he's operating at. Anyone with that kind of obsessive attention to detail, I think, is going to just improve players. So he would definitely, he would definitely find ways of making the players perform better than they, they did whether or not he would have the same impact from a, from a tactical level. It's hard to say, but I believe that he probably would have, he would improve the players. He would make the, the whole greater than the sum of the parts to an extent. But the question is like, what, what, what added value does that give you at that level? Do you, do you see him necessarily getting promoted or is it just he has a really good championship side for a while that doesn't quite have enough players in it to, to get over the hump? Well, it's also whether he has the, the patience for it. Like some, some sort of elite players who go like, someone like Glen Hoddle, you know, I think, I think he was used to struggle with players who couldn't do what he could do. And he would often then just show the players and training and made himself a little bit of an idiot, in my opinion. But, you know, some, I know, someone like Zidane seems better suited to the top level, even like you mentioned, like Michael Carrick earlier, like, you know, he, he did well with Miller's work, but we didn't pull up any trees, but you know, he did obviously a really good job with Man United last season. But I just, yeah, how much patience would he have for players who couldn't do the things that he wants them to do? Because that's not something he's like to really deal with in his career. Yeah, I guess not, but then I'm trying to think of some players where he's sort of had that patience with them, right? Like, so, Matez, here we go, really bad player. Matez Noons, like, we've already mentioned walls, walls getting a lot of mentions here, but Matez Noons is not obviously not a bad player, but it was brought in to do a sound job and was decided he couldn't do it. And then he was able to reinvent him in a, in a different way. And we've seen Guadiola do that with a lot of players three of the years. I mean, even someone like Niko Arali, I think, again, taking him from being a central midfielder and then moving into that wide, the fallback of the area and having him be successful from there in a very different way to the way that he was inverting fallbacks and buy-in with David Alibur and Philip Lam. And you know, the Niko Arali, who's literally just one PFA young player of the year, was a player who was getting forward and was getting into the box and was almost playing as a second striker at times with Erling Harlan. So I definitely think he would have, I think he has the patience to try and solve issues where I think he gets, I think he gets motivated by that. I was almost surprised that he's not still the coach of Man City this time around because it almost felt as though he'd come from the, the, the complete nadir of 2425 season to now. And, and it felt as though the corner had been turned and he would have almost have felt, oh, let's see how far we can, we can take it. So, and I guess anyone who has the staying power to be at Man City for 10 seasons has, has got a degree of patience, although it was largely going quite well. So, maybe well. I mean, on, on City then, if we're, if we're looking at different timelines, because we've done it with Barcelona, like you said, John, I mean, it was there for a decade, 20 major trophies in that time as well, including six Premier League titles, of course, winning, you know, the Champions League, the FA Cup, the treble involved in that as well. What, what do we think if we take Peppa away from Manchester City? What would that have meant to his closest rivals in that time? I'm thinking Liverpool and Jürgen Klopp, for example. So, the immediate thought is Klopp, yeah, because they sort of went ahead to head for so long. Obviously, Klopp only won one title. And, and at the moment, he's still in that bracket. People say, oh, there's no Fergie, Venga, Marinho, Guardiola or Klopp anymore. I think that'll diminish as the years go on, because people like, well, the only one, league title. So, why has he been mentioned in the same bracket? Yeah, I guess so. And I think, well, I think the fact that slot one, the league title, the year after club, again, just sort of diminishes, is legacy a little bit. However, without Peppa, Klopp would probably be considered one of the greats. If you take City out of the equation for the league titles day one, so let's be honest, may still happen. Liverpool would only get two... I prefer not to speak. Liverpool would only get two more titles. So, from the six that City were Liverpool, only finished one as up twice. So, I was quite surprised at that bit more than that. But, obviously, that would give Klopp three, making him one of the sort of Premier League greats. But, it's Michel Atteto, who would also benefit. So, the last two titles that City won under Guadalajola, Atteto were seconds, with Arsenal in 23 and 24. But, two more titles of the six go to Manchester United. So, in 2021, under Soul Shire, it's only going to Soul Show, would be a Premier League win-in manager in this alternative reality. And even more fascinating, in 2017-18, Joe's angry. So, he catapults himself back into the sort of elite level of management, and Guadalajola ball is completely banished. And Roderie will sign for Man United instead of Man City. And there's a whole new period of dominance in the Marineo. Wow. I see. I like that. I'll return to the timeline. I really like that. What about if, if Erling Harlan joins Real Madrid in 2022, and in Bappé, actually stays where he was at PSG, a manager's to work that out? Yeah. I mean, I think the reason why that would happen is because, in Man United, Guadalajola made the Premier League what it is today, right? He made it the destination for a lot of players. And I think had that not happened, then Harlan probably would have gone to Real Madrid, and you'd still have the Barça Rail rivalry, I think, as the biggest one in World Football. All of the big players would end up going there, rather than not all of them, but many of them instead of the Premier League, I think. And so, you can even make the argument, I think. And I know this is not where the question is going, but underlying it is what the status of the Premier League has now, which is easily the most moneyed league in World Football, probably wouldn't exist. And the actual European landscape would look incredibly different, I think. Something that you did mention earlier were Peps Disciples. So, what happens to some of them? We talked about, I mean, our tetris, obviously, the sort of, you know, name on everyone's lips at the moment, just because of what he's doing it, asked about. Also, Javier Lonto, as well, who seems to have hit the ground running at Chelsea. You've got Morescar, who's now, obviously, in at City, Vincent Company, Javier, as well. I mean, there's a whole list of them. I mean, our tetris is an interesting one, because I think he's had to maybe go against his pep-influenced instincts, when the football is enlisted to win the title with Arsenal. He felt that was the only way that he could be City, I think. And they've ended up with the extreme version of like 24% possession of the Champions League final and a couple of shots on target. You know, I don't think that happens if Guardiola isn't around, because it feels like that's not our tetris. It doesn't feel like that's natural to our tetra, to me. You know, long throw, set pieces. The kind of player that he was, and the top manager he started to be, with or without pep, I feel like he's, and it worked. He felt like he had to go against the grain and do some of it completely different, because he couldn't outpep pep, basically. I guess, I mean, of the people you mentioned, Vincent Company, I think Burnley would benefit. No, I think they probably would have, he wouldn't have stuck to his guns at Burnley, and they would have gone 4.4.2 to stay up. And maybe finish top 10, and Company doesn't get the buying job. Because the only reason he got the buying job was because pep was his mentor, you know. When all of Sundry were telling him, you've got to stop Burnley playing out from the back. You get murdered here, mate. You're like, you know, he's going down. He's like, no, no, no, got my eyes on the buying job. Thanks very much. Yeah, yeah, and it's worked out all right. This worked out all right. Yeah. What about England then? Because pep verbally agreed to take the England job before Thomas Tuke. I've got that job in 2024. How would we be looking at England right now? Well, it's a good question. I don't know. I don't know. I think it's tempting to think, you know, Guardiola comes in and gets them playing the way that Spain played. It's this time round. But in many respects, you know, the way that the English football has gone, it made a degree of sense that Thomas took when the route that he went. I think Guardiola would probably have probably have tried to go the other way. And you would have the option of just being able to pick anyone from England. So he would have been able to build his dream team in that respect. So maybe we would have seen an England sort of Spanish style World Cup victory. But there's plenty of things. I don't know. I find the possibility is overwhelming. I think he's really excited. It's too much. Yeah. But I would say his record in elite knockout competitions either the Champions League. What's he won three? Three Champions League, two with Barcelona, one with Citi. That's that's not good enough for him. Is it really? What? Why do you know? Compared to the rest of his like three isn't enough is it for a man of his touch? Why do you think that is? You know, people will talk about the overthinking aspect of it. And on the one hand, I kind of feel as though those those are just sort of easy. Whenever he loses, you can be like, well, he overthought it. But actually, there's a kind of interesting phenomenon, which is when he comes up to these big games in in Champions League finals, he has so much longer to prepare that he does not. I don't think overthink it, but I think he he has more time to actually make elegant tactical solutions to the problems that he's going to face. And often on paper, I think I understand why he's made the decisions he's made. But because he changes things so much from the what the players are used to doing in the rest of the season, the players are just feel a little bit out of what the great example of that is the game against Inter, which they ended up winning 1-0. But in that game, they'd been playing with a double pivot all season with John Stones jumping into that pivot spot. And so they were building with it with a double pivot and a lot of the angles and and the the ball receptions all all happen in a very similar way. In that game, they went to just a single pivot with Rodri on his own with John Stones actually playing in midfield further up the pitch. And it changed all the angles and you could see that that Rodri thought it seemed he seemed quite uncomfortable playing it in that way, having played a different way the whole season. And I think that's a fair criticism, potentially, of Guardiola that when he has more time to prepare, and you can understand why he did it. This the solutions on the pitch, which like I understand why he's done it from a theoretical point of view, but football is more than just the theoretical. It's about whether or not the players can enact it as well. Sometimes I felt that those those games were good examples of him having more time to think about it because it was a more important game and so took longer and therefore it fell a bit clunk here, weirdly. Yeah. Okay, it's time for some trivia before we wrap things up. So you both ready for this? Yeah. Yeah. All right. This is a game called Who Am I? So I will stay a series of facts about a player and you it's very simple. You've just got to guess who this player is, okay? Presumably the fewer facts we get in the battle. Exactly. So... Presumably it's not just Pep Guardiola either. No, the answer is not Pep. Today's player was managed by the subject of this episode, Pep Guardiola. So I'm going to give you a first fact and then if you both come up with who you think it might be off the first fact and then we'll go through the facts, okay? So first off, I played 358 times for Pep Guardiola. Uh-huh. So we better get a guess. Just a stab in the dark. Philip Lam. No. Do I have a silver? No. I am a central midfielder. Is that Alpertol? Kevin DeBroiner. No. Chubby. No. I am European. Roderie. No. Iniesta? No. I love that you're both, you're flitting between, obviously. I currently play in Turkey. I feel like this is going to maybe help you out a bit. Are two over down? No. Someone I guess a bit closer to home. God, I've just gone to Turkey. I'll give you a an added clue by saying former city player. I can't get Edison out my head because he's in Turkey, but how many probably club playing central midfielder? The penultimate fact. I am 35 years old. It's not Fernandini, is it? No. So it's a man city central midfielder who played 358 times. A lot of times. A lot of times. And it's now in Turkey. No, it's in Turkey. It's not Kevin DeBroiner. You will really be annoyed when I do tell you this is the last fact. I have scored two goals on the final day of the season to win the title. What's the name of the title? There we go. What a yes. No, I don't know. That was poor. It's poor from you, especially. I mean, I think central midfielder speaks me with that because you think of him slightly higher. If you'd said attack him midfielder. I agree. I would definitely have got it. We'll just blame the questions. Okay. Just before we go then, with everything that we've talked about today, what's the verdict? I just, I never really enjoyed watching his man city team. I'm sorry, John. It's just fine. It's totally fine. It's what your book's all about. The book is not defending him, by the way. It's just saying he existed and this is what it meant. That's just my preference. I prefer something a bit more faster and a bit more direct. That probably says more about me than him. I think most fans would prefer a more chaotic football. Yeah, chaotic. That's good word. However, him as a personality in the book, I think he's brilliant, so intelligent. I love the sarcasm. I wouldn't want to get rid of him. Thank God. The idea of messy and not being messy, I think, is the biggest negative to that alternative timeline. But then maybe England would have won the World Cup if messy, wasn't it? But then if Peck was managing England, maybe they wouldn't have won the World Cup. I don't know. There's a lot to it. We know what John's going to say. He's making millions. Which timeline do you prefer? Yeah. Again, I am not a necessarily a Guardiola defender in that sense. The book is very much about the history of the football and that's a history that he shaped. I think it's incredibly impressive that a guy like Guardiola came along and effectively sold football for 15 years to the extent that no one could really do anything about it. It took that long for alternatives to be found. Do I think that the modern iteration of football is more exciting? Probably. But I also think that there's something about Guardiola's football where you just understand it. You can watch his team's play and you're like, I know what the plan is and it makes sense to me. So I enjoyed that element of it as well. So I'll probably err on the side of, yeah, it's good that Guardiola was here. But I think he also meant the argument. It's good that he's not here anymore because and this is what this is the story that my book is about about how Guardiola rose to prominence and how he eventually fell away at the end. That's how football evolution happens and probably few coaches have ever had that sort of same level of success. But whatever the level of success you have as a manager, it always comes to an end and then we enter a new period and that's what we're doing now. It's why the opening day of the Premier League, I think, was incredibly exciting because no one knows what to expect anymore. I know. A new era. A new era. Gents, thanks. That was fun, wasn't it? Yeah. Like Neil Warnock was saying. Another guy lost. We enjoyed it but we enjoyed it by being disciplined, I thought. Yes, yes, exactly that. We'll be back with another What If next week. See you then.