The Premier League Myth: Structural Fatigue, Tactical Hubris, and Continental Realities

The Athletic FC Welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Ayur Akimolevich. For all the talk of Premier League dominance in Europe, no English sides won in this week's Champions League. So ahead of the second leg next week, is this just a blip or a rude awakening? Alright, in with us today we've got a Chelsea correspondent Liam Tumey in Paris, Arsenal writer James McNicholas, who will join us later from Leverkusen, and also will hear from our Manchester City correspondent Sam Lee as well. Alright, let's start in Paris, a rematch Liam of the Summer's Club World Cup final. Talk to me about that match because from a neutral perspective, it was an absolute spectacle to witness. Yeah, it was a really fun game and for 74 minutes, a very even one. PSG clearly went into it, feeling like they had a point to prove after the Club World Cup final. They approached it with a different level of intensity, different level of seriousness even from the group stage of the Champions League. And Chelsea, I think, raised their game too. They played really well for the bulk of the game, which I think makes the frustration at the way they collapsed in the final stretch even more acute. Yeah, I can hear you still at the airport, so appreciate you joining us for this. Can we just talk about the keepers as well? Obviously we've had Kinski in the Tottenham match in the Champions League already on this podcast. A change in the net for Chelsea as well, no Sanchez, but what did you make of the keepers performances yesterday? Yeah, Philip Jorgensen has been plunged in to the fire at a defining stretch of the season. In that sense, it is quite similar to Anthony Kinski. I will say this was not a Kinski performance. And I say that with compassion for Tottenham's goalkeeper, because I think it was just something that was horrible to watch obviously. It was that let's kind of drink. Jorgensen actually played well until suddenly he didn't. It was the dynamic of the game that was set up to be really hard for him. I think about as hard as it can possibly get for a goalkeeper that is being asked to play the ball out with their feet because PSG were pressing ferociously through the middle of the pitch. And Chelsea were absolutely determined in a way that they weren't really in the club World Cup final to build out from the back through the middle of the pitch often. And so the way PSG's third goal came about with Jorgensen's pass being picked off by Bradley Barcola and in a rapid cascading series of events, the ball ending up at the feet of a teenager to beautifully lob him into the net. It felt like something that was on the cards all game. Chelsea as a whole were dancing on the jaws of a crocodile essentially with the way that they were playing. It was a real high wire act just to escape their own third against PSG. The risk reward equation obviously meant that when they did beat that press they were really dangerous and they caused PSG a lot of problems and they actually created more chances if you look at the XG than PSG did. But there are mistakes in this Chelsea team not just with Jorgensen, not just in the goalkeeper position and PSG punished them absolutely ruthlessly. My matchpiece ended up being about the fact that Razzinia has essentially muddied the waters Chelsea's goalkeeper been in a situation at a crucial stage of the season by putting Jorgensen in. Sanchez's form had undoubtedly dipped. He's not the first Chelsea coach to bench Sanchez either. This is a recurring pattern. The conclusion really that's impossible to avoid is that for Chelsea to play this style of football particularly they just need a better goalkeeper than both of them. That's not easy because there really aren't many goalkeepers that are genuinely world class with their hands and their feet. Chelsea haven't found one despite spending not insignificant sums on goalkeepers under Bluco. I think they're hoping that Mike Penders is the solution. He won't arrive in time for the second leg against PSG so that it cost them dearly in Paris and it will continue to cost them in games against really high level opposition. I don't want to twist the chat around disciplinary issues but we have to talk about Pedro Neto and the ball boy situation. What did you read into that? I know he apologized greatly and I think he offered him his shirt at the end of the match as well. As a reporter you know that games are going to throw up unexpected things but I didn't expect to be reminded of Edden Hazard versus the Swansea City ball boy from 13 years ago in the league cup. It was a bizarre situation obviously frustration from Neto. You can see that he pushes the ball boy to get the ball back. What I can say is the ball boy, he could play at the highest level of football with that reaction the way that he fell to the floor straight into the hoardings clutching his face in a screaming heap elite world class gamesmanship and it prompted a mass confrontation as these things always do. Neto to his credit didn't look to escalate it further. He looked like he immediately knew that he'd screwed up and his discipline in particular has been in the spotlight since that silly red card against Arsenal. But I think the officials took a common sense approach and there wasn't really enough in this. I thought it was probably a yellow, he was lucky to escape without a booking but they let it go. I think the bigger frustration for Resignia is that almost immediately from the restart PSG scored their fifth goal. Chelsea didn't get that moment out of their system, they didn't get their heads back into the game. They pushed forward in crazy numbers really, giving the situation and just allowed PSG to counter and score a goal that turns the second leg from a very difficult task to, you have to say, a near impossible one. Yeah Liam, on Tuesday we discussed PSG and how they aren't the same team they were last season. Could this be the kickstart to this season though, much like how they've come to life in the knockout stages last season? Yeah I mean it was about this time last year that they decided to click up a gear and became the best team in Europe for three months and wipe the floor with everyone and it is too early to say if that will happen again but they certainly flexed Champions League winning muscles against Chelsea and maybe you can say that Chelsea were naive and played into their hands to some degree but I think they really upped it. I watched PSG's tie against Monaco, both games and they were really lucky to escape. They were so sloppy. They had moments of real sloppiness against Chelsea, Bradley Barclay just completely didn't track Malogusto for Chelsea's first goal, second goal Nino Mendes plays almost a blind switch of play, Pedro Neto picks off Beats Marquinhos for pace and picks out Enzo Fernandez to score and they could have considered a third. It was a fractional offside that prevented Chal Pedro from scoring Chelsea's third goal that would have made it three three and maybe a different game. But PSG have so much firepower and they also have this really coherent identity when they commit to their press and they bring the level of intensity that they did at part to press I think ruled on by that crowd massively helped them. They're just really, really difficult to live with and when you can do what they did for 74 minutes, ask the questions that they did of Chelsea defensively and then bring on Farah Scalier, one of the best players in the world and played like it. I mean, his first goal was delightful, wasn't it? Yeah, the first goal was incredible. Farah Scalier trying to find a route to go! Oh, and did he do that? I think he plays like no one else in Europe. But he has an ability to bend games to his will in the way that the best attackers can and he did it against Chelsea. I think they look like a team even in the loaded half of the Champions D draw that can beat everyone all over again. This is the Athletic FC podcast with IO Akmalere. As well as Chelsea losing by three goals, Manchester City lost 3-0 to Real Madrid thanks to Valverde's hat trick. Now, before we get your take Liam, let's hear from Sam Lee, our Manchester City correspondent who was at the Bernabelle. Who saw that coming? I suppose you can always rely on Real Madrid to do something like that. They played against City for the last five years and every time every time I've been here, they've had the ball at the back, put it forward and scored. Their ability to do that, no matter how down they look, no matter how good they look, no matter how bad they look, is unrivaled. They just keep doing it. I suppose you could also have predicted that maybe Guardiola would throw in one of his overthinking moments. Generally, I'm not really like that term over the years. I do feel like there's always a reason for his decisions. I feel like there's always a reason. There's always logic. And look, there's plenty of times when he's picked a team that nobody really understands and it's a city of one, or we all forget about it. This though, I think there was logic in a lot of the decisions, but all of those decisions did involve ripping up the entire blueprint. Not just the blueprint of this season. And what's been working recently, the box midfield, the two strikers, the wide fallbacks, all of that stuff, basically ripped up the entire Guardiola philosophy of going into these games, big away Champions League games, and keeping things really tight, trying not to lose matches. In the first leg, that's Anna Famer to him. He just wants to keep things tight, get a draw, or win if you can, and then go. But they're really open. The changes, they left an artist silver, and Roger Islay at the midfield. And then I suppose, at the top of that, the defending was shocking. Val Verdi was fantastic, but basically city does watch him be fantastic. But look, next week, everybody's going to be talking about whether they can turn it around. Probably not. But we'll see. Yeah, what again, that was no mbappé, no bellingum Liam. We've spoken about Kfarat Scalier on the other side for PSG, but you know, big players like Val Verdi, when they needed, they step up. I mean, what a game that was, Real Madrid showing their pedigree once again. Without wishing to maybe cap his ambitions for what remains of his career, I think that won't go better than this. To score three goals like that in a Champions League game, a Champions League half against the team of Manchester City's quality. It seemed credible. It seemed like he had like an out of body experience. And we all know he's been a great player for a long time, and a great player who is very versatile in terms of the jobs he could do for a team, but he's not typically someone who carries the goal threat in the way that he did, so brilliantly in that game. And it seemed to really catch City out. What amazes me, though, is just Real Madrid's muscle memory in the Champions League. When all else fails, they revert to this DNA. It doesn't seem to matter who's on the pitch for them, what the circumstances of the tie are, what stage the tie is in, what the score line is, how hopeless the situation is, they always back themselves to turn it around. And it, I mean, it often comes across as arrogance, but it's not arrogance if you repeatedly back it up. It's just really impressive. And logically you would look at it and say, given the season they're having, they're not among probably the two, three biggest favourites to win this competition, but they have to be in that conversation because they're Real Madrid. And I think now Manchester City look like they're in an incredibly difficult situation. They have enough firepower to score three, four goals without reply against Real Madrid, and we've seen them do it in this competition before, but it's just really hard not to see Real Madrid may be finding one goal at the etsy had and getting through. Yeah, it's so interesting, much like PSG Madrid aren't having the best season in La Liga, but I mean, it probably will be either then we'll Barcelona to win it anyway. But this is just show what they're able to do in the Champions League, though. I mean, no one knows if they're going to win it necessarily, but you just can't write them off as you've just said. Yeah, and this is where the coach that no one knows if they really believe in, who may not be there beyond the summer. I mean, I guess that's kind of true of every Real Madrid coach ever, but there seems to be this just institutional continuity and institutional strength that carries them in this particular competition that doesn't always apply to La Liga and doesn't always apply to how well they're doing with a given coach or style of play. Just find a way to get it done. And I think that's to their immense credit and that you would have to think if they get through this round, the circumstances are going to improve for them, that they will get and back pay and maybe belling and back at some point and have a bit more individual firepower to go with what they showed against City. Have it to make it one-one. Into the corner at lunch. No celebration from Kai Haberts. Let's move on to another Champions League game. Let's talk about Arsenal, who went away to Germany to play it by a Labour Cousin. Joining us now, we have our Arsenal correspondent James McNicholas. James Gray to have you with us. I mean, look, many would have looked at this fixture and thought perhaps. Arsenal would have made it much easier for themselves away at Labour Cousin, bearing in mind that the riches available to both teams, but they made a meal of it. But also wonderful that Kai Haberts comes to rescue the day. Well, quite. And I think Arsenal's result probably looks a little bit better in the context of some of the other European results that happened later in the evening and, of course, the day proceeding. Those expectations that you mentioned coming into the game were shared, I think, by many of the by-lever Cousin fans I spoke to out here in Germany. They were not particularly optimistic ahead of this game. Soar Arsenal was having an outstanding season, whereas they're having quite a difficult campaign, having lost a number of key players last summer. But big credit to Liverpool, and I thought they acquitted themselves very well. They were organised, very diligent, defensively. They carried a threat on the counterattack, particularly through 19-year-old striker, Caffana, who I thought was really impressive. And Arsenal were not at their best, but as has often been the case this season, even when they've not performed at their level, they find a way to avoid defeat. Liam, Kai Havott, Champions League, you know, with a Chelsea hat on. He has a knack for performing well in this competition. Yeah, he is a big game player. Whatever else you might say about him, the things that you can and can't do, he does raise his game for the big occasion. I think it wasn't just the goal against Manchester City for Chelsea, a lot of his best moments. Four Chelsea came in the Champions League, and in finals, he also hit a nerve-wracking penalty to win. What you used to be called the club well cup, it's confusing now. The one that Chelsea won in 2022. But yeah, it wasn't a surprise for me to see Kai Havott step up. And it's nice to see him fit again after struggling with injury. Yeah, James, we need to talk about Arsenal's attack. Because Osaka probably didn't have the best game captain in the team yesterday in the Champions League. Madueke, we saw, came on, and obviously showed a bit more impetus. Why do you think Arsenal is still struggling in attack, especially in the Champions League, where we've seen them play much better sometimes than we have in the Premier League? Yeah, I think typically in the Champions League teams have been a bit more open. They've played with a bit more ambition than many of the teams Arsenal have encountered in the Premier League, and that has suited them. You know, Arsenal have players like Victor Yokarez, Gerbera Martinelli, who like to run into space, and that space has to be present, has to be there. I thought Leverkusen, they really collapsed into their shape effectively. And someone like Bukai Sakka, he did not have the best game individually, but there were many moments in the game where he was faced with not just two defenders, but sometimes three or four. Leverkusen was forming a little quadrant on that left hand side to stop Arsenal progressing down the right flank. But big credits in Oli Madueke. He came on, Mikolata as instruction to him was very clear. Come on and change the game. He did that for Arsenal. It might have been a bit fortuitous, perhaps the penalty award, but it came as a consequence of his direct running, his dribbling ability. That is his strong suit. And he's been quite an impactful player for Arsenal over the last few weeks. Yeah, you mentioned it earlier, perhaps Arsenal came out of this, probably the least scathed of all the Premier League teams in the Champions League. It really sets it up nicely for the Emirates, doesn't it, for Arsenal to try and win this and really grab this tie. Absolutely. I mean, this tie reminded me a little bit of the Newcastle Barcelona game in that the home side got their lead, and I think had they taken that one ill advantage into the second leg, and it would have felt like a big landmark, a big milestone result. But the favourites ultimately grabbed their equaliser, and now you'd have to say, Arsenal looking at a pretty strong position ahead of that home leg. But they'll have to play better than they did last night. I mean, it's an intriguing aspect of this outstanding season, Arsenal, having that I do think over the last six weeks or so, performances have dipped a little bit, and there are some signs of I think mental fatigue, physical fatigue in the displays. There's a credit on the one hand for continuing to churn out results. They are a very, very effective machine in that regard, but I think fans will be hoping that as we get into the home straight, the final part of the run-in that the performance level lifts a bit too. Yeah, I was just wondering how important Knockout Football will be to win in general for someone like Mick and Arthetta. Arsenal has still, we mentioned in a previous podcast, The Lind for the Quadruple, James, all those cup competitions, Arsenal are still in really good space for. I mean, for Mick and Arthetta, even to get to the final of the Champions League this season, will be another great notch on what has been a really good tenor so far. Arsenal. It would be, and you'd have to say that in the cup competitions this year, the draws have been relatively kind for them. I mean, the FA Cup, they've faced a lower league opposition in every single round. They've got that coming again with the Trips of Championships in Alhampton. In the Carabell, they had a relatively kind run. They made the final of that competition. And in the Champions League, it opens up for them quite effectively. I mean, if they can progress against Liverpool's, it looks very much like it will be Boda in the quarterfinals. I think any Arsenal fan would have taken that. And then you might have a really intriguing tie against Athleticum and Dread or a Barcelona in the semi-final. That would be a huge test for this Arsenal side. But it's 20 years since their last Champions League final, Paraso 6, and they'll be desperately hoping to get to boot a pass for this one. You know, Joe's mentioned fatigue and also how physically debilitating it can be in this competition. But how much of a factor is the scheduling around domestically game? So PSG basically don't play this weekend. And also they played on Friday ahead of face in Chelsea. Could more be done from a Premier League perspective in terms of scheduling, especially when these teams are having to face such high levels going into the Champions League. Yeah, I think more could be done, but I also don't think the Premier League cares. I think the Premier League is about the Premier League and I think the mentality of the Premier League has always been, we are the top league, the top competition, and the Champions League is just kind of an appendage. So I don't think Premier League teams can expect meaningful help. It's never been the case. I don't think it ever will be in Champions League competition. And that's particularly tough right now because I think, you know, we've spoken before about how the Premier League's middle class is probably better than it's ever been. The average Premier League game is more taxing on a team than it's ever been. And that means that a Premier League season is more draining for a squad than it's ever been. And you see every year, but this year is no exception. A real dichotomy between the teams like maybe Manchester United who can focus fully on a Premier League without Champions League games in between and teams like Chelsea who haven't necessarily upgraded their squad that much from last season and have suddenly gone from Premier League conference league, which they could easily handle to Premier League Champions League, which their squad depth absolutely cannot. So as far as it applies to Chelsea PSG, it is definitely an advantage for PSG. Even if they didn't have a free weekend though, they can usually get away with making eight or nine changes in legal and not paying too high a price. So yeah, it's, it's an uphill battle for Premier League clubs in that sense. But on the other hand, they have all the money and have the capability to build squads that can handle it. Yeah, that's exactly it, James. Are we playing the tiniest violin for Premier League teams in sympathy? With what they are able to bring to the Champions League in comparison to, I mean, if you look at Bodo Glim to what they're doing, I mean, they're astronomically performing above their standards. Yeah, that's right. I don't think there'll be too much sympathy on the continent for Premier League sides with the resources at their disposal, particularly in a case like Arsenal where, you know, we're talking about an equalizer they conjured last night from two players who started on the substitute bench, not even had a OK coming on a 50 million pound signing. And then Kai Havats, who is even more expensive around from Chelsea and is a previous Champions League winner. So there are a lot of riches at the Premier League's disposal. And I think it's still, despite all the demands on a club like Arsenal competing on multiple fronts, I think it's absolutely right that they're considered among the favourites for this competition. OK, James, let's let you go. I know you're in Labour Cuisin. Have a safe flight, mate. Pleasure. Thanks for having me on. You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with IOWAC in Malaria. Let's talk about the English clubs and let's look ahead to those second legs, because no English club side won in the Champions League this week, despite the odds being stacked in their favour. Manchester City Spurs, Chelsea, all 12 Liam by three goals. Any chance, any of those teams are going to turn it around. I bet you're going to say Chelsea are doing it, aren't you? No, no. No, I mean, I do think, you know, Chelsea showed the part to Prince that they were capable of scoring three goals against PSG. They very nearly did. Away from home. And of course, they didn't club well cut. But three goals without reply against the PSG team that look like they're getting in serious mode. I don't see it. And I just don't see Chelsea putting together a perfect 90 plus minutes, which is what they would need in order to have a chance of getting that done. So now I think it's gone for Chelsea. I would give Manchester City the best chance, just because we know what they can do. At their very best, they can find a gear that could get them there. But as we just said, you know, Real Madrid, Real Madrid in this competition for a reason. And it wouldn't surprise me if Real Madrid toy with going out before getting the goal that they need to get through. And Tottenham, I think, I mean, will they even play there a real team for the second game? Given their situation in the Premier League? I would question that. Do they have a real team to play at this point, given the situation in this squad? Their situation is completely hopeless. So interesting to watch a team like Bodo Glimpton, we've spoken about it on this podcast before. Not the greatest resources, but for some reason, gradually watching them build and build and build over time, three-neil at home against sporting. I mean, dreams come true. I would love to see how much they've racked up just in general from European competitions, because even this one on the Champions League would have definitely put some money in their pocket. Yeah, they've provided a real lesson to far bigger and richer clubs in just how to build something really coherent that really works at the highest level and can enable you to punch massively above your weight. I'm just my big hope now, beyond, you know, the residual hope that Chelsea come back and can give me some more Champions League football to cover this season, is that Bodo emerges like the Greece 2004 of this Champions League. I mean, the landscape is not the same, because in that tournament, the big teams basically cleared the path for Greece to come through and win. There are a lot of big teams who don't look ready to clear the path in this Champions League knockout stage, but it would be just like the biggest story ever. It would be less to win in the Premier League times a thousand, wouldn't it? I mean, even if they don't, you know, even if it ends probably in the next round now, rather than this round, what a fantastic story and yeah, what a great credit to everyone involved there. Okay, just a quick one on Bime Unic, who absolutely obliterated at Atlanta, and they put six past them, and they look in imperious form, both in the Bundesliga and in the Champions League. Me and Tom Williams basically had them to win this competition. Do you agree? Well, I probably would have agreed until I saw what I saw from PSG last night, because that makes me doubt it slightly. You know, we saw PSG beat Bion at the club World Cup as well. And I do still think PSG ultimately have a gear that no one else can quite reach, and it's a question of whether they can hit that gear consistently enough to win in the loaded half of the draw. Bion are in that half as well, but I do think they're at worst, the second strongest team on that side. I think they're better than Real Madrid and Manchester City. Certainly on form. The problem they've had in recent years, Bion, I think, is that they win the Bundesliga so easily, that they very rarely come into March, April, May in peak form. But they certainly look to be at the moment, and you know, you look at the way someone like Michael Alisa is playing in particular, and it's just so pleasure to watch him. So I think they've got world-class quality in almost every area. Company seems to be doing a very good job there, and they really believe in him. So it looks like the most unified and coherent that Bion had been for several years. Liam, appreciate your time. You're another one with a flight to catch as well. Get home safe. James and Sam, thanks for joining us earlier, and also thank you guys for joining us as well. We'll catch you soon. 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