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Hi there and welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Adam Leventel, so FIFA have scrapped their plans to sell off the World Cup after a huge backlash. So how did it all fall apart and is this the end for the FIFA president, Janie and Fantino? Will alongside me, from the Athletic, Matt Slater, Adam Krafton and James Horncastle and later the UEFA Vice President Laura McHallister will be joining us and she has strong views. I've seen no way in which the position is retrievable now. I think there's been too many interventions of the kind we saw last week. If this were the first, then they might be an argument for some form of redemption. But the reality is, this is the latest in a series of interventions that seem to have come from the president himself. So this story has moved day by day since it emerged last Tuesday that Janie and Fantino wanted to launch a new subsidiary called FIFA Forward Enterprise or FFE, which would see a 20% stake in its World Cup commercial operation sold for $20 billion and in line to take a large proportion of that was a firm called Thrive Capital run by Joshua Kushner who is the brother of US President Donald Trump son-in-law Jared Kushner. We're going to get stuck into many other elements of this and specifics along the way. But first, Matt, just give us a taste of the carnage that has ensued since we first learnt about this. Quite a lot of carnage. Well, I'll be as pretty responsible because I can't name-check everybody that said this is a dreadful idea. But I suppose that start with Europe. They're the most predictable. You wait for put out a pretty strong statement straight away. They then convene a meeting of all 55 European member associations. I think we're going to hear from someone who was at that meeting a little later in the show. So I don't want to steal her thunder. But pretty much mostly bespoke. Thirty-thirty odd people spoke. Alexander Seferin, who if John F. and Sejal told you, it was daytime. He said it was nighttime. So he kind of led the charge. Others immediately got in behind him. We hate this idea. We absolutely hate it. Not doing it. And we hate it so much. We might boycott. We will boycott the World Cup. We'll boycott FIFA tournaments. So it couldn't have been clearer. Same time, another meeting is going on over in North America. This conquer calf represents North-essential American football. Yeah, their meeting was perhaps less predictable given that a lot of their member associations, especially the ones in the Caribbean, are almost exactly the type of organization that Johnny F. and Sejal, it was targeting with this. A genuine life changing amount of money for your federation. And also the fact that we've just been to the states, but largely the states for the World Cup, big success, certainly big financial success, and most of this money, most of this private money was going to be coming from the states. So you would have thought they would be more open to the idea, certainly. But no, they hated it as well. They certainly hated the process. They'd already sort of indicated that. They didn't like reading about it for the first time. But to me, anyway, surprisingly in step with the Europeans, and then I think the third big element, which in some ways is, is it a bigger shot than those? Maybe it is. The Asian football confederation. Not quite as strong as the other two. We don't like it either. What are we doing here? The speed of this, the haste of this, talking about governance and what have you? So you had three of the big confederations in order of anger, like Europe, not Conquercaf, AFC saying, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, only Europe, if I'm right, talking about boycotts, the other two kind of, you know, sort of standing in unity with them, saying, just please drop this. And then of course we had lots of individuals, you know, pulling out and saying, we didn't know about this. Initially, one to me was Coast Cordero, ex-US soccer boss, a long time supporter, you know, cheerleader, confidant, conciliary to Johnny F. Latino, just saying, this is a really, I'm sorry, also ex-goldman sacks saying, this is just a really bad deal. What are we doing here? The chief operating officer, Kevin Lamore, you know, you would think someone who that salutely should be all over this at FIFA, San, Johnny Lightwiss, you know, we didn't know about this. He's been doing this with a, you know, totally private group of individuals who don't work for FIFA. So I think those are the main bits. There's been lots of other individuals that said stuff as well. So a loss of carnage, and here we are now talking on Monday, over the weekend, it's been like, well, it's Johnny going to survive because people have been calling for his head as well. Of course, that's the thing I should have mentioned to you that he has lost the confidence. Certainly of Europe, I can't kick out as well, I think. And, you know, does he survive this? Yeah, and that is the big question now. We'll get stuck into that. And Adam, it's amazing to me, and reading the big read that a lot of people contributed to on the athletic, the big inside read of the week that was, that ideally, Johnny and F. Latino wanted to announce this during the World Cup. Considering the carnage that has happened, imagine if it had happened during the tournament, is staggering, isn't it? Yeah, I think it would have interrupted the athletics end of the tournament football match that was taking place. That Saturday morning. Yeah, he wanted to announce it at the World War for Story or Hotel on the Saturday before the World Cup final, the day before. He'd been at Trump Tower the evening before with many of the member federation executives with extended members of the Trump family. And, and there were, there were some whispers that week of something going on. And nobody was quite sure what it was. And actually, to be putting together part of that piece, what actually may have contributed in the end to it getting leaked is, Gianni himself started saying a little bit too much about this thing that he hadn't announced. And he'd started sort of suggesting to some of his wealthy friends and connections over that weekend, what might, what might be a fur. And there's people who think that by extending the network of people who knew that was one of the ways that it, that it got out. I think in the end, the plan was actually, was actually to announce it last week. I think on Thursday or Friday, in the end, it obviously leaks out into the media on Tuesday. And that just, once he lost control of the messaging and lost control over how it was presented to his federation, I think that made it almost dead on arrival, to be honest. I think it was going to be uphill in any case. I think whenever it was announced, it may have, it may have been killed. But certainly the way it came out, because if you look at a lot of the criticism from the federation, it's as Matt says, they talk about opacity and a lack of governance, a lack of process. A lot of those criticisms wouldn't really have been able to be presented in quite the same way, if he himself had presented it rather than it getting out in the media. But there still would have been this argument of, you've drawn this all up in secret. And we can get onto the biggest elephant in the room, which was not only that, but you've done it with someone with the surname Kushner, right? You've not really hidden what's going on here. And the optics of that were always going to present a huge challenge. James, how has he got this so wrong? It's such a miscalculation, isn't it? Or should we not be surprised that someone who has become so elevated, rubbed shoulders with such important people, has maybe lost touch of reality? I think he considers himself to be a member of the global elite now. And I think that's perhaps normal, given over the last 10 years, as president of FIFA, which he likes to celebrate, he had his own private birthday party for 10 years at FIFA with Chris Martin and others. Three of them. Three birthday parties. Three birthday parties. Here's his own logo. Yeah, the anniversary parties. Yes, I can't wait to buy the merch for that mat. I will be wearing a GI hat. So James, to curl across you on that, the best thing about this is for his 10th birthday party at FIFA. He also got this book written by an Italian journalist basically celebrating him. But the Congress in Vancouver, you know, like many hotel rooms in America, particularly kind of middle America, have the Bible by the bed. He had this book given to federation executives in their bedrooms as a gift. So the FIFA Bible was, they were sleeping next to it. Yeah, I mean, we can get into all of that a little bit later maybe as well. But I mean, yeah, this is a guy who's been given the order of friendship by Vladimir Putin. Yes, sort of, you know, sort of walked into the Kremlin and, you know, sort of, if you look at some of his other engagements, the Qatar, Qatar World Cup, you know, sort of moved to Qatar. He was there with the Amir. He was there with Mohammed bin Salman. You know, obviously over the last four years, not only with the the World Cup in North America, but also the club World Cup. His position himself very close to Donald Trump. Incredibly close, you know, not only sort of allowing him to have trophies in the overall office, but also, you know, giving him the inaugural peace prize. And then to just come back to this, this, this summer, you know, traveling around on on a private jet supplied by Qatar Airways, going from VVIP box to VVIP box with, you know, various members of America's billionaire class, you know, be that kind of Robert Kraft of the kind of New England Patriots, Jerry Jones of the Dallas Cowboys, all of whom must look at him and think, how much do you make Jenny? Sorry, you know, our commissioner makes 10 times. What you do? This is, this is crazy. This is the greatest show on earth you're putting on. And I think this has just led to him sort of largely being in a bubble and, and tone death when it when it comes to this. And certainly as Adam alluded to there with, you know, sort of already presenting this proposal with a private investor group led by Srive eternal, headed by Josh Kushner. You know, if you look at the proposal in itself to sell a minority stake, quite a large minority stake in it in a new company, a lot of people in finance will say, well, that's quite normal in sports these days. I think it's the appearance of infantino, his proximity to the Trump family, which is, which is problematic here, because as much as he will say, well, that minority stake means that FIFA retain control and voting rights on whatever that company would do, well, we've already seen the sovereignty of FIFA stepped on in the tournaments when it came to, you know, the story that Adam and Dan Schellenbroke regarding the unsuspension of the suspended US men's national team player follow in Balacan. So the, the, the idea that he couldn't control what he was not giving away. And the general sort of perception now of, of Janie as, as being this sort of deeply integrated figure in, in private affairs when he is a sort of, you know, sort of someone who's heading up a public institution. It felt like the last few days have been as a much a referendum on Janie as on the proposal that he was bringing forward. Matt, let me just bring you in on this. And maybe you can play devil's advocate if you wish in terms of what FIFA were trying to do, which was ultimately raise more money for its member nations. Obviously attached to that is what that then means for the person who's doing that. I, Janie and Fantino and keeping himself in power. But ultimately, are they doing anything different to what they've ultimately been doing previously, which is, you know, allowing the direction of football to be forced by the hands of the, the powerful and the, and the most rich? All right, devil's advocate then. Let's be, let's be fairs of FIFA. They are a nonprofit based in Switzerland. They don't pay tax because they're a nonprofit. Nothing wrong with that. Lots of other international sports federations are based there too. And I set up an exactly the same way. These organizations are 100 years old, okay? And they would say that we have this one really cool thing. We've got a few more now that we'd like to add to that. But really, it's been one cool thing. It's been the men's world cup. We love obviously FIFA would like the women's world cup to be a bigger, more financially successful composition too. Likewise, club world cup, likewise everything else you do. But really, it's the men's world cup at the moment. And that is why, like the Olympics, they do all their budgets on a four year cycle, which culminates with the men's world cup, right? So very, like, rule of thumb, they lose money for three years, lose their own nonprofit, they dish out, dish out and grants, costs, wages. And they make a great big profit at the end on the ticketing, the commercial deals, the broadcast deals. And they have been making money. Bear in mind, non-profit. So I'll explain, they've been making services for years. The world cup's pretty good, isn't it? We like it. And then of course, because they're making bigger services, because the world cup is growing, literally growing. And those other things I mentioned, and the fact that, you know, more and more parts of the world are interested in football, you know, lots of the windows in FIFA sales has been in FIFA sales for a while. The money's been going up. The one we've just done, absolute mega success, 104 games in the world's most lucrative, splive, entertainment market, dynamic pricing, you name it, the rest of it, kitchen. All of that extra money is then dished out. Now this is the sort of devil's advocate bit, you know, they would say, look, our job as the global governing body is to sort of grow the game everywhere, all corners of the globe. And yes, yes, yes, Europe, we know you're really, really good. And you've got the big leagues and all the players come from there. And yeah, you're fine. And South America, yeah, yeah, Brazil, Arkansas, you win these things, you're a guy in the past. Yeah, you're okay as well. But we're our job, our fiduciary responsibility, although they shouldn't use that term, but Johnny Infantino likes it, as though he is a chief executive of PLC. But anyway, his job, he would say, I think he does genuinely believe bits of this. Well, so he's managed to convince himself. He believes it anyway. His job is to well, I've an African winner. I want African winners. I want Asian winners. Europe shouldn't dominate this. And that is a really compelling argument. It's I've seen it work in the room. And when Europe pipes up or when Europe says no, the rest of the room, the rest of the world, oh, here we go. I was surprised Europe don't like this new idea because they're fine. And then you start to hear language like colonialism, the imperialist at it again. And there I say, when we, the English do it, the whispers are even louder. So this is what Johnny has been playing and manipulating for a while. He understands that better than most. I do think there are good people at FIFA who genuinely sort of see this as a mission. Look, football is the biggest sport in the world. And yet it's not the biggest sport in the states, China, India, other swathes of the world. Look where the talent's coming from Africa. You know, why is African football so far behind the rest? So they would say Europe's not dishing out. We have to dishing out. So that's that's the sort of the defense of the FIFA position. Adam, do you think it will have come as a surprise to Janine Fantino, the Carlos Cordero, his senior advisor, the chief operating officer Kevin Le Mans, who spoke to the Associated Press, felt that staff had been deceived by Infantino. Also within the the big piece on the athletic, which I've referred to a couple of times, it's reflected that the Secretary General Mattias Grafstrom had become frustrated with Janine Fantino, not consulting with him. However much you can look at that relationship that they've had over a number of years and it didn't necessarily look to be balanced to me in any way. Do you think it will have come as a surprise to Janine Fantino that they have started to turn against him quite directly? I think he'll be surprised by the speed and how public it was for sure. I mean, he definitely wouldn't have started the week expecting it to end like that. However, you know, if people like us know new before that these people aren't that keen on Gianni, I'm pretty sure that Gianni should know that they aren't that keen on Gianni. But Gianni's also in, as Matt says, a very kind of a bubble really, his own little bubble. You know, during the World Cup, the amount of times people said to me, sort of look who he's traveling with. It is not FIFA stuff. It's not FIFA management. It is ex players. It's designated FIFA legends. I mean, we even reported in that piece that there's been times where he has sent former players FIFA legends as his end voice to meetings with major financial institutions. We're talking about some of the biggest, some of the biggest guys on Wall Street taking meetings with former players and kind of blinded by fame a little bit or non fame in some of the cases of the players that were being sent. But that just kind of gives us a sense of where he has started to land. And I think, you know, someone like Kevin Le Mans is a very interesting guy because he was at UEFA previously moved over to FIFA a year and a half ago. He didn't love it at UEFA. That's something we should remember in all of this that, you know, I think it's very easy. And this is a bit of devil's advocate is that by a new idea, good, everyone else, Gianni, bad, there are shades of gray in the goodness and badness of global football. Even within UEFA, there was huge pushback when Shaftrain attempted to alter some statutes a couple of years ago as well. So there isn't a kind of a perfect European situation as well and a perfect European governing body. But Gianni has kind of managed to unite the entire block against him and conquer calf, I think are the really interesting ones to watch as well now because if they can keep their block together, Gianni has a problem. Well, we're joined now by a key voice in the backlash against FIFA's sell-off plans. That's the UEFA Vice President Laura McAllister. Laura, thanks very much for joining us. Just take us into the initial moment that you found out about the plans and then you were surrounded by your peers on an emergency Zoom call and you were trying to sort of pull it apart and work out which way you were going to go. Well, thanks for having me. First of all, Adam, well, we heard about the proposal for FFE at the same time as everyone else, of course, which sort of encapsulates the problem that there was no prior conversation or consultation with any of the Confederations like ourselves at UEFA, despite the fact that most of us were present during the FIFA World Cup and had plenty of opportunities to chat to people at board level and at administration level. And I know from talking to my colleagues in both of those sides of UEFA that there was no communication whatsoever. So we heard the same time as everyone else, but I think what was pleasing about what actually transpired last week was that we were able to move fast to ensure that our opposition to a catastrophic proposal, such as the private equity one, was executed as quickly as possible. And as you said, that resulted in the emergency meeting that was held for all 55 national associations on Thursday afternoon. And obviously, we as Exco members were present and contributed to that. In terms of where we are now, I find it interesting. Obviously, the pace of this story has now moved on to UEFA filing a formal six-page legal notice warning FIFA against spoilation of evidence. I mean, it is sort of taking it into the realms of being worried where FIFA and maybe Jenny and Fantino is going to go next. I think the legal letter that we've sent is the right next move to protect ourselves, obviously, and to ensure that we are privy through the documentation and the lead to what happened last week. I mean, it seemed to us to be a unilateral intervention by the president and a small team of people around him. But if we weren't to issue a letter of the type we have, then we never get to the bottom of what actually happened in the weeks that proceeded this, because by the time the FFE proposal was in our hands, if you like, it was clear that this had been fermenting for quite some time. So clearly, there were other people who were knowledgeable about that. And I think if we're serious about improving the governance to fall and making sure that it operates by normal governance standards of accountability, due diligence, transparency, and so on, then it's really important that we don't see documents destroyed, that we are we are partied to the whole process that created what could have been an existential crisis for the game. So obviously, you know, you didn't like the idea initially. You didn't like the way that it was formulated by Janie and Fantino ultimately. Do you want him to stay in position? Well, look, you know, my federation, the World Football Association was the first enough association to issue a letter of withdrawal of our support for Janie and Fantino. And I think that pretty much represents our position. I mean, I've seen no way in which the position is retrievable now. I think there has been, there have been too many interventions of the kind we saw last week. If this were the first, then they might be an argument for some form of redemption. But the reality is this is the latest in a series of interventions that seem to have come from the president himself from the FIFA Peace Prize awarded to Donald Trump to the allowance of state political interference in a red card referee and decision to the way in which the hydration breaks have essentially recast the structure of a game. All of those things have happened without new process and democratic engagement by all of us who are involved as custodians of the game. So, you know, we take that very seriously. I know I do personally, I mean, I'm a former player, you know, and I've been involved in football and sports administrations since I retired. So for me, I know that as a custodian, I'm a temporary figure in these spaces, but our primary duty is to make sure that the voices of the players and the fans are properly heard in every single debate and that we leave the game in a better health than we took it at our start of our turn. And I'm afraid these kind of interventions don't give us any confidence that that's what's happening. So, hence the letter from the Welsh FA, you're really proud that we've done that because it's the right thing to do. And I hope by the federation's follow suit now. Do you think that they will? Obviously, UEFA as a block were united in talking about a boycott. Do you feel that everyone else is going to withdraw support as well? Because that's ultimately what's important in what is democratic process? Well, it's difficult for me to answer for, you know, the other 54 federation, but I know lots of them well. Obviously, I've got very close relationships with many of them. And I know that when we had the discussion at the emergency UEFA meeting on Thursday, there was a real sense of purpose and an anger, obviously, emotion, anger, incredulity as well, the nature of the proposal. So I would be very, very surprised if you didn't see more letters with glowing support for in Fantino come today and tomorrow. But, but, you know, I can't determine that timeline for that, obviously, but the more that come, the stronger the position is, obviously, because as you know, one member, one vote, you know, in terms of the presidency, the UEFA voices will be particularly powerful because of the status that we have in the game. So I think it's really, really, very important that federation's now will be thinking about this behind the scenes and we'll be deciding when, and if when they issue their withdrawals. Laura, you've been around these rooms long enough now to know that there is a tendency sometimes when a European or Europe speaks the rest of the world rolls their eyes and go, oh, here we go. Are you worried about that? I mean, you said that we have, you know, Europe now has a significance if you're like beyond its 55 votes, I would accept that, but is only 55 votes, is any a quarter of the electorate? Yeah, it's an entirely fair point matter. I understand exactly what you're saying. I think it's really important that we in Europe don't see ourselves as being bigger or better than any other federation, first and foremost, or that we don't see our federation's as having more weight in this decision-making process than those from AFC or Connabal or CAF or anywhere, because we don't, but we can only look after our own business and we, I think, believe in the principles of the game being run according to what's best for the sport, not what's best for shareholders and private equity. And so we will speak up. I think what you're alluding to is, you know, would there be more unity around the non-European candidate, either to stand against Johnny Infantino, or who knows, maybe Infantino will be gone by the time of the election next march. And I understand that, and I think that's something that UEFA will be taking seriously, because we can't assume that another European candidate will be one to unite the world of football, and more important than any regional federation dominating is that we save the strategic future football, and that we don't allow what happened last week to happen again. Laura, can I ask you, why did it take this for the world of football to rally an intervene? Because this perhaps is the most egregious overstep in Infantino's presidency, but you listed all of the other things that have happened over the last year alone. And particularly the state political interference in a live world cup felt like a red line then, but we didn't see the confederations acting as they are now. Why did it take this to get the reaction that we've seen against Johnny's presidency? I don't think it's fair to say you didn't see a reaction to the Balagan Red Card affair. I mean, I spoke publicly about it as a vice president of UEFA. I know my good colleague and friend, Lisa Clarke, Lavineste did as well. So there were voices raised. I mean, Lisa's an executive committee member as well. So I think several federations and individuals felt very, very strongly about that as they did about the fee for the price and even going further back as they did to events in Qatar around migrant workers and human rights. So it's not as if voices haven't been heard, but I guess what you're asking, James, is why the unity, now, why the force and the the infrastructure of the opposition. And all I can say is, you know, I think this is accumulation of frustration and anger, at how the leadership of FIFA is operated. I think, no, no, confederation is perfect, let me say, and I'm not claiming for a moment that everything we do at UEFA level is exemplary, but at least we are on a modernization journey. At least we are trying to diversify our governance and make it more fit for purpose. And there's a buy-in to that from the president, but we cannot keep trying to put out fires in football. We cannot keep lurching from one crisis to another because we lose the goodwill and the respect of the real, the people who really matter, which is the fans, first and foremost, but then all of the people who are involved in running the game at grassroots level all the way through elite. So I guess the only answer I can give you is that this was a store that broke the camel's back, that we felt this was a step too far, it was an existential threat to football, and it was something that we have to unite around. And you know, you know, are you guys, because you're experts in this area, there are federations in UEFA who would have done very nicely out to the financial deal that was on offer there. Not just small federations, but even medium-sized federations like ourselves in Wales and Scotland and Republic of Ireland, but the unity that was shown against it gives you a sense of where the ethics lie, at least in our case. And I hope that's a good sign, but you know, we should also reference the role of the AFC and the role of Conca Caffee, you know, because both of those confederations will brave enough to stick their heads above the parapet and say they were opposed to the FFE initiative, and they're going to be absolutely critical to what happens next. That kind of sees up the next question. It was really interesting, I'm losing track of the days, I think on Saturday when the UEFA statement came out, and a Conca Caff statement came out pretty quickly in terms of the plan had been pulled at that point, but UEFA and Conca Caffee both put out statements, I think Conca Caffee called through a reckoning on the presidency, UEFA obviously started talking about losing confidence in the president, that there was some pretty similar language, kind of across those two letters, and there are clear that we are getting a lot of suggestions now that there is a move to coalesce around Victor Montagliani as a possible successor. How much coordination is now going on between UEFA and Conca Caff, because clearly you need to maintain those two blocks to stand a chance? I think there's always coordination and communication between the confederations, I know in the areas that I've worked in around sustainability and the women's game that we're constantly in dialogues with the other confederations, but this is particularly significant obviously, because as you say Adam, to defeat Infantino in a vote would require support from other major confederations and the votes of their individual NA, so I think that's always happening, and it would be strange if it wasn't happening in this context as well, but the critical point really is, if you roll back to Thursday afternoon when we were talking about what we should do about this, the unity was straightforward, but what should we do about it? And lots of us felt that the boycott option was the only credible option, because it was the only thing we had that was commensurate with the scale of the threat that we were facing, and also it was the only thing that would frighten FIFA in all honesty, losing the European nations from the women and men's world cups. Obviously, we changed the tournaments out of recognition and probably reduced them to something that would not be attractive to broadcasters and commercial partners, so we were able to also then mobilize the nations in Europe around a boycott, then having defeated that proposal, I think it naturally moved on to do process. How do we stop this happening again? How do we look at the culture of FIFA's governance, and how do we make sure that one individual within that culture cannot be allowed to dictate a strategic position, because you saw with the resignation of Infantino Special Advisor, you saw with the strong statement by my good friend Kevin Lamore, that this was not something that FIFA staff agreed with, you saw that this was very individualistic, and I think what that does is it reflects a very, very poor leadership culture and governance culture within FIFA, so obviously it was right for us then to liaise with Konkaka for about how we try and change that over time, because we have a responsibility to do that. Yeah, I basically agree with everything you said, Lord, the bit which I kind of struggle about a little bit, and I appreciate this is speculating, this is speculating to a certain extent, but if one of the existing VPs is to become the person that everyone coalesces around, do we not need to sort of look at, well, what have these guys been doing for the past, eight to ten years, while Gianni's been able to do all of this, because the alternative is, we're either saying they're partially responsible for what's gone on, you know, Victor was out batting for the dynamic pricing model, which offended so many fans in the summer, for example, because if they're not partially responsible, they've really just been sat there taking a very healthy salary for a very long time, and accepting that they don't really have an impact. So I'm just curious how do we make sure that what comes next is definitely going to be better than what we've had other than a kind of slightly less offensive personality culture? Well, I look, I think that's absolutely critical. We can't replace like with like, or we'll get what we've got now, and none of us want that to be the situation. I can't really speak about individuals, obviously, I mean, you know, my involvement is at UEFA level. I know the individuals, of course I do, but you know, I'm not close enough to know what was going on behind the scenes, and that's, in essence, what UEFA's legal action is all about to find out whether there was a process that was spread beyond the president's office, and that other people were implicated in the move for FFE. But I mean, I take what you say, Adam, and I think we have to be very, very clear that whoever replaces Johnny and Fantino has to be wedded to the principles that are critical to the development of our sport. So, you know, fair play in everything we do, it's my transparency, but in the interest of the game first, not financial interest, because actually, putting the interest in the game first will generate more finance. That's the reality, not the kind of nonsense that we saw last week. So, you know, that's what we all hope for, I know, but I don't think it's for me to kind of talk about individuals at this stage. Laura, really appreciate you coming on. Thank you very much. So, obviously, we're talking about what's next already. James, do you see in Fantino walking before the next election comes around in March? Do you think it's got that bad for him and he would listen that much? Well, we've talked about the Johnny bubble, and, you know, there are surely it's first by now. Surely he must have heard. Oh, but I think the trend in politics and, you know, wider public life over the last 15, 20 years is to see individuals find power in shamelessness and not walk or resign when there is a core clamor for them to do so. Ride it out until the club season starts and everyone starts to get distracted by the Premier League and other leagues around the world. And in the meantime, work on those other confederations that can back and support you and and peel member associations away from those that at the moment have been a block against you. So, I don't think this is necessarily over as much as a discredited figure he now looks. So, you know, I think he will try to hang on to power for as long as he possibly can. So, you know, I think Chronicles of a resignation foretolder premature. I suppose it's interesting as much as the mud that's being flung everywhere. It's those that are staying silent at the moment as well and that aren't coming out to, you know, criticize in Fantino. What are you reading between the lines there in terms of actually maybe he might have a way of clinging on here if he can work his magic as he did when he first took over when he was very, very good at pressing the flesh. Yeah. I agree with James. So, some clues were already up in drops. So, look at his statement and went out. Yeah, I hear you. It was a consultation process. I hear you. Oh, was it? Sorry, I thought everything had been agreed. The letters you sent out to all the federations and confederations was this is happening. You got 50 odd days to tell me you want 40 billion, 40 million dollars. Yes or no. You know, we've we've chosen our bank, we've chosen our advisor. Oh, no, no, apparently this was a consultation. So, there's your first clue. Second clue, I think apart from that, that's it. You know, you watch his Instagram. That's basically what you need to know what he's up to. He's still pushing out, wishing players happy birthday and having a great tournament and blah, blah, blah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, he is biding his time. Well, easy by the time. He's on the phone, him and the few people left who he talks to and they are ringing around their mates. We've heard nothing from Comable. South America absolutely wants 64 team World Cup in 2030. You know, they've been jealousy looking at Europe for a while. Well, every now and then for very strategic reasons, they've they've they've worked with Europe to sort of get what they want, but they are he's got he's he's on the phones of them. He's on the phone to AFC because of the AFC, their statement was really interesting. Very East West in the in the AFC, you've got the Gulf crowd, you've got Japan, Korea, you've got Australia, it's really hard getting any kind of unity over there. So he knows he can work on them. He knows and he'll be, you know, we've already seen Qatar back in. I think Sherlock could put one out. They'll they'll be some others. He knows he can get around the edges. I also wonder if he's thinking is ConquerCaf the block I think it is? You know, I thought it was interesting when the Caribbean crowd who have their own sort of kind of like sort of, you know, less or not lesser body, but they have kind of sort of subcommittee type and no, no, no, no, we're we're back in we're back in ConquerCaf. We saw Mexico put out a slightly equivocal statement. There's some people he thinks he can might be able to peer away. Don't forget if this guy is a shameless with James just years and I think he is that shameless. I also is a shame. I think he's just incredibly thick-skinned. I think he's been hanging around with with the Trumps of this world in all his private jet. He doesn't hear criticism. I think one of the things he'll be telling people is that this is again. Oh, he does. He puts out 15 pages. Well, I get you. Okay, that's that's that's 15 page slides spreading lies and rumors, you know, I think one thing he'll be doing right now is blaming us. Blaming Europe, playing the British media again. He'll say that this like this story, this plan was sort of killed at birth as Joe as Adam suggested because of the very negative slant that was put out initially. If you just give me a chance, your guy to explain this to you properly, it would have landed better. But anyway, it's dead now. He has he has. And this is one of the things that kind of the more, I think the people that really hurt him like Carlos Cordero, those sorts of guys have gone. This is just a really stupid deal. It's a really bad deal. If you want to dish out more money to your member associations, think for sitting on about seven billion of reserves. Their reserves are going up and up and up. They've actually invested their money quite well. They've put loads in bonds. You know, they are they are sitting on the load of money. What is that for? Now, they would say it's for an asteroid hits the world. Another COVID. But come on, you know, if you really want to, if you want to dish some money out, dish it out. I mean, we know one of the reasons why just dishing money out isn't such a good idea because FIFA have been through this, you know, number number number number times. If you say, I don't want to pick on any countries here, but just have a look at, have a look at countries by GDP. It was suggesting giving them 40, 40 million. That's sort of like 50% of some of these nations GDP. I'm not talking about their football federation. I'm talking about their GDP. Isn't that a good idea? Where do we think that money's going to go? So he's not walking. We've heard Victor Montaliani is potentially wanting to run against him. And there's a groundswell of support we're hearing for him. And let's be brutally honest. He's been, he's been sort of making sounds or moves. Many people were thinking for, for 2031 anyway. So he's, he's someone that we know about and we've discussed and anyone else in the mixer at the moment. Well, I'll give you, I'll give you my five, right? And then the others can jump in. So yeah, Montaliani, he, many people thought he was the successor to 2031. We've already, you know, we've already established that he might be accelerating that idea now. I will throw in NASA, El Khalifa, who would, I think, tick the box of being adjacent to your AFA and being on good terms with your AFA, but not European. Here, of course, is the, is the Katari who runs PSG, runs via media incredibly powerful in the club. Well, Kane, he's been quite paly with Johnny over the years, but okay, we haven't heard from him yet. He's selling people he doesn't want it, but watch this space. I think there might be some politics for him to sort out back at home, relations with Saudi. He's always complicated in the Gulf, but he would bring a lot of support. Another one, I think, uh, so maybe as more as an insert in, but his popular hasn't said the thing, but is hinting that he feels let down by all this as well. He's Matthias Grafstrom, who is officially the number two at FIFA. His rise has been very much tied to Johnny Fenty, you know, so that would be interesting. He's kind of young, most fans have never heard of the guy, but is he is quite popular? So he wants to watch, I mean, that, funnily enough, part of his job title is to think about FIFA strategy, and I'm led to believe he had no idea about this. I would also suggest Patrice, what's Seppi, who runs African Football Federation, bit of an outsider, very ambitious, has previously been close to your lines, who Johnny hasn't said a word. And then my last one, Shake Salmon. Now the irony there, he's the AFC boss, he's kept very quiet for about a decade. He was the guy that UEFA puts Johnny in Fenty, you know, up to stop Shake Salmon becoming FIFA president after Sepp latter. This could land in his lap. Adam, final words, to you, Crystal Ball time, what's happening over the next couple of months, having had the week that we've had? I'm just trying to imagine any of those people as FIFA president, and you know, it is, it's interesting because, you know, when you look around the world at what people want from a FIFA president, and what they want to be different next time, you know, really, apart from stripping out, Johnny's kind of highly objectionable court of personality, and the way that he addresses a room, and the way that he kind of makes you sort of shiver a bit when he talks, you know, a lot of those people would do many of the same things that he's done. You know, I mean, Nasser Alcalafi, like the kind of conflicts of interest, King of Europe, really, that we've seen over the past few years in terms of all the different hats that he's worn at various times. So it would be, I think, lamentable of UEFA to be sort of putting that forward, you know, as their alternative, Montagliani, you know, as I said to Laura, has been sat there for 10 years, you know, many of these people, we've not even mentioned what happened in Qatar or in the lead up to Qatar, you know, on this podcast, those people who are in place while this stuff happened. And, you know, the idea that they just get to sort of now pretend that they are all of a sudden highly offended by Infantino's FIFA, I don't think is an idea that we should just accept. Or that he did this in 2018. He tried, with soft bank, with Saudi money stuffed into a Japanese fund, so to bring in, what is it, by any of World Cups and a massive global nation's league? Yeah, yeah. You know, and it's much like the Carlos Cordero thing from the other day where this guy who was being there in every, in every flipping meeting for the past few years, you know, running around after Gianni like a puppy, all of a sudden gets to be a hero and offended. It doesn't work like that. These guys, you know, you know, in Cordero's case, yeah, powerful statement, great. His job had basically lapsed, right? The World Cups over, right? This was a job that he wasn't initially even being paid for and then some money went to charity. You know, he wasn't, this wasn't a level of sacrifice, I would say, that perhaps it appeared on the surface. However, we should still commend people, you know, who speak out when they do. Crystal ball, what happens next? I think the key to any kind of dethroning or coup is momentum. And at the moment, you wafer feel like they have momentum. And I think what you're going to see over the next 24 hours, 48 hours is like a domino of letters with drawing. Maybe some of these people are actually explaining why they were endorsing in the first place. We've not had much of that. Yeah. As well, you know, as well. But what they need is, they need conquer cap to join. And I think there's very interesting stories come out of the New York Post this morning, which is essentially saying, you know, Gianni is seeking talks with the US government to kind of bail him out of this and prop him up a little bit. You know, if the US government comes on strong, how many of those conquer calf nations, including the US soccer federation itself, what do they do? They've not said very much over the past few days. You know, they've, they kind of did a line on Twitter, basically saying they stand with conquer calf. That's going to be a real challenge, I think, for Montagliani over the next few days. Can he build up that his own base within his own continent or continent to plural? And then you need to get other people to turn, you know, South America at the moment seems pretty tied to Gianni. I think Brazil will be very nervous because they've got a World Cup next year. They probably just want all of this to go away a little bit, regardless of whatever they might think privately. And then it's going to be, I think the Asian Confederation is fascinating. I'm kind of excited about the Asian Confederation because there are kind of so many parts within that, you know, you think of like Lebanon, that's part of the Asian Confederation, right? They came out the other day in support of Gianni. Gianni's just been given a citizenship there. I think his wife is is Lebanese. But then there's other parts, you know, what does Qatar do? Well, they've already come out and said they stand with Gianni. But the Saudi block have been quiet. And the Saudi voice will carry a huge amount of weight. What does Saudi do? And who do they bring with them? The Palestinian vote will be interesting. They've not been very fond of Gianni over the last few years. Where do Israel go? That there's a lot of different interests. And I think it will become very politically guided to be honest in some of these cases, depending on who else is in support other than just a bunch of smart says of Europeans who, you know, are telling the world what to think. Well, if it is politically driven, it would be very much in step to the last decade of Gianni and Fantino. And we we watch on with interest to see what's going to happen over the next week, maybe the next 24 hours. Matt, James, Adam, Laura, earlier on as well. Thank you very much indeed. Thanks very much for listening. We're going to be back with you on Wednesday.
