The Chaos Engine: Deconstructing Chelsea's Attacking Ceiling and Defensive Anarchy

Hello and welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Emma Payton. Javier Lanzo's Chelsea have scored seven goals in their opening two Premier League games, but they've also conceded five. So will their attack alone be enough to sustain a title challenge? Here with me in the studio today, we have the Athletic's Karris Jones morning, good morning, and we've got former England goalkeeper Rob Greenback from holiday. Yes, I got. How was that? Yeah, I had football phoma. Oh, did you? Yes, it's kind of, I could only like it to be an injured where you sat there thinking, I need to be involved. I need to be involved. Something's happening. Why is it happening without you? Well, this was happening without you. Yes. And we missed you. So no more holidays allowed on a Monday, right? No, that's it. And our German football correspondent Seb Stafford Blor will join us having sat down with England captain Harry Kane for the latest My Game in My Words on the Athletic. There's so much talk in all athletes about why don't you think the authority is about slowing down? And one of my heroes Tom Brady played until he was 44, and it's like, do I think sometimes is it just a perception thing? Is it people that went around you saying that you should be slowing down and you start to think that yourself, whereas I'm the opposite, until I start seeing it in data and I start seeing it in my performance, you know, I'm just going to keep pushing and see where it tastes to me. But let's start with Chelsea, because after scoring three goals at Fulham to start the week, they put four pass brightens at Stanford Bridge on Sunday. Rob, you were there working. I mean, how exciting were they to watch Chelsea? Yeah, exciting is a word unstoppable at times it felt, and you look at the three up from it, and it's such a one for interchangeable three and the space that they created for each other. And the unstoppable bit was Morgan Rodgers. I felt in there, but scuggly sat on Cole Palmer's. He was quite quiet. Jal Pedro had his, he was up and ready to go because it was his old team, but Morgan Rodgers was the one where when he decided to do something against someone or two players, just roll someone or just run past him, he did it. And those are the types of players that put fear in the opposition that you're saying, we don't know what to do to stop him. If he decides to run past you or if he decides to roll you, he can do it. And between them, there's such an exciting trio. I tried to think of teams I played against and sort of you look at the Manchester United, Ronaldo, Giggs, Rooney, Skoles in there. Those four had their own facets, but they're every much individual out on the left or down the middle. These three can do it together. They can mix it up. Morgan Rodgers can wander over, Cole Palmer can drift, Jal Pedro the same. And it just felt, you know, such a really anticipating, such a really good season between the three of them. Yeah. You were, of course, part of the athletics Chelsea writers last season. When you look at the goals that they scored across the whole of last season, 58 goals that was 19 fewer than the highest scores in Manchester City, was this an obvious area that, you know, coming into this season, Jabil Anso was really going to target the fact that they needed to get to get more goals this season. Yeah. I think so, but I do think that that sort of stat masks things like Cole Palmer not been particularly informed. They had the whole team had a really horrible dry spell through, like I think March from March onwards after they beat Asim Villa and it was a really good performance and then they lost six consecutively games, didn't score for five of them. So I think there was elements of, if you look back at November, October, sort of even maybe start of December, there was some of the highest scores in the league and then it was kind of individuals dropping off in form, for instance, Pedro Netto, I think, was their third highest score last season in the league with five goals, but they were all kind of before the turn of the year. So I think it was a question this season of, first of all, the signing of Morgan Rogers obviously raises the ceiling of that attack so much is such a high quality player, such a versatile player, but also it was a matter of getting the best out of what they already had. They have really high caliber attacking players in the building before they did any business this summer, like Joe Pedro, like Cole Palmer, I think my, if I was running the place which I'm obviously not going to play like the priority was kind of like stabilizing that midfield and defense, they've raised the attacking ceiling, which is great, but I think they do still need a bit more of like a stable foundation for it. Well, that is something that we were going to come on to because the big question, I mean, some of the stats were, they were eye catching, weren't they Rob? I mean, three and a half after, after 32 minutes, but when you look at the possession, 26% possession, past completion rates, 67%, I think it was, but by the end, I mean, is there a tag going to be enough to sustain a title push this season? Not like that. No. Winner title by winning, if you're three, no, up, you've finished the game three now or four now, and you just control the game. You look at the great teams of the passing, I go back to Manchester City all the time. It is a standard that you just go to a three down and you know, as an opposition, you're dead and buried. You're done. They're just, you're just never going to see the ball. You lose it. And it's, you know, two, three minutes before one of their players makes a mistake on the ball. To be fair to Alonzo, he had Malogusto and Labia in midfield. So that's a long way short of what you're talking about, but I don't think when you've got those three and they're putting so much into attack and breaking, you can control the game as well. And I think that's where they, they struggled as a team with defensively allowing 30 crosses was another big thing. So you just concede in possession, concede in the fact that you can't really press all the time. So it's going to be, you know, it's going to be yoyo games and you wonder how much Stanford Bridge as well is going to entertain that as a fan base. That's a big factor. I think also part of it is just this adjustment using a wingback system if I was looking at sort of natto and hato and how it would go. And so good going forward. They were really in go forward. I didn't really know like Hato's sprint for one of the goals. And I think the cross into Jarl Pedro, I really didn't know he had that sprint in him. And so they've been really good going forward, but there's the element of like adjusting to pushing so high, being willing to commit bodies forward so quickly. They look like they've been given loads of license to go and express themselves, which I think under Moresca in particular was something you talk about the fans at Stanford Bridge. I think a lot of them had issues with sort of it being a bit too patient, a bit too possession heavy. The issue is that they were also really bad at game management last season. Like this is not a new thing I think about them playing leads at home. I think about Sondland on the last day of the season. Parasunderman's the really obvious one. There were so many times that they threw away leads and threw away advantages. So it's interesting to see them having all this like license and freedom going forward, but it needs to be balanced out because it's not doing anything to fix an issue that was already there. But it is also still really early days for a long zone. Yeah. I mean, next weekend Chelsea had to ask, no, it's going to be a big test that one, isn't it? I said test that. Yeah. And you're looking at saying you can see the three against Brian, they had a 19 year old up front. They're missing Hinchaward, who scored a couple of last week and missing other players in there. Georgiania Ruta was at center for these. He was missing and they had Danny Wellbeck on the bench, who was a Bryson player a matter of weeks ago. So this was by no means the strongest brightening they could have played. So you wonder with those 30 crosses and a center forward that can attack them, are they going to suffer more? It's going to be a big test next week. Obviously, you really want to get your thoughts on the goalkeeper situation because Robert Sanchez, after their very first game of the Premier League on Monday, came in for a lot of criticism after that, that victory over Fulham, Emmy Martinez, arrived from Aston Villa, straight in the starting 11. First of all, were you of the opinion that they needed to upgrade if they really wanted a title challenge? Yeah. They needed to change. There's just noise has been going on for so long about Robert Sanchez every year. Ain't no other keeper has taken his place and he's come back such as the problem that's done now. Sanchez is going to play for this season and next probably and then you're looking penders to come in possibly in a couple of years time. But that needed to happen. Sanchez Martinez, sorry, has got the confidence, the arrogance that's needed in a positive way to be Chelsea goalkeeper and he walked out onto the pitch and went, this is not my domain. Now, he played okay and still can see the three there, there's there in lies another problem. Probably could have conceded more, right? Yeah. I just think that the goalkeeper change is really fascinating. So I remember having a very similar conversation of Italy was after the window closed but in I think late September, last year after he was sent off against Man United and then there was this whole debate of does Jorgensen needs to come in and the kind of justification for not signing another number one has been to not block penders pathway, which is where I think Martin as kind of being available has worked out for them so well because of his age, they've given him quite a short contract so it doesn't block penders pathway in quite the same way. But I think more than anything, it just shows like they're getting a little bit less patient and a little bit less willing to sort of be like, you know, two years down the line, like the succession plan will work out and they're getting a bit more, no, okay, we need to bring this forward so that we're not having these issues now and we if there's something that we can rectify now, let's do it, even if it's not what the long term plan necessarily was. I mean, they acted pretty quick with this, didn't they? But then obviously, Martin as was available. Yes. I think, you know, timing, right? You look at Donna rumour last season and they sign traffic and they go, sorry, we've got to take this. Because he's up because he's, yeah, he is who he is and it's done. And like Harris says, it's just someone who just takes a noise away. It's done. I just wonder then because you mentioned the fact that obviously Emuartine as it was a good debut for him yesterday, but ultimately still can see the three goals. And when you look at Chelsea's record recently, 18 Premier League games now without a clean sheet, obviously, this dates back last season, you know, is this not necessarily just goalkeeper related? Is this, you know, something to do with their structure, something to do with the personnel, you know, in front of the goalkeeper? The beauty of the front three is they can't do it defensively as well. So you defend him with seven plus Martin as in behind and it is those five at the back when they get pinned in and Brian did it well that you looked at the sort of the right back position, the left back position, they got combinations there. There was no pressure on them. Morgan Rogers couldn't go and do the defensive side of well. Cole Palmer couldn't do it as well. And so from there, you say, well, we are going to concede possession. We are going to concede territory. We're going to have to sit and wait. And that was the vulnerability as well. So there's something in there that needs to tinker and something they need to work on. But even as well as that, I think there is just an issue, there's definitely the issue with the front three being, you know, great attacking, not so defensively minded. But there is also a problem of Chelsea do just seem to switch off quite a lot in a lot of situations. I think Brighton's first goal, netto sort of, I think this is a bit of adjusting to wing back roll, but he kind of comes to try and snap into the challenge and close the attack down really quickly. It doesn't quite work. But then Gusto tracks Yakuya all the way into the box, tracking, tracking, tracking, does the hard bit and then just stays the wrong side of him and leaves him alone. And he's free to score. And there's a man free at the back post as well. When you watch it back, I think there's, they would pull from set pieces kind of similarly last season. I think there's just an issue of concentration sometimes that that's something that needs to be kind of, you know, from the leaders in the squad and from the coach that got on you set peace coach. And I was hopefully that will, that will help them with that. But I think there's, there's structural issues, but there is also just this, this mental edge sometimes where they just need to switch on. Yeah. Look what looks like head and shoulders the best defender in the team by defending well. It sounds simple. He was just there and in the way and did it well and all of a sudden he was like, wow, he won a great edition. He's been, he is a, he's a, he's a resolute defender. There you go. Yeah. So, yeah, there's working progress. Just before we move on then, just lastly on Chelsea, I wonder, I don't know what your preseason predictions were of, of how, how you thought they'd get on this season, but I don't know whether that has changed since watching them first couple of games. Champions League positions. Yeah. Has that changed though? No. I think they'll be up there. I don't think they'll challenge, but I think that you've got a team that will score more than they can see. And so far they've done that in abundance, but it's, it's, you look at Chelsea, where they've been, what they served up last season, nowhere near good enough. This will be a step in the right direction. How much I'm not so sure. Great. Yeah, I think I predicted them to finish in the Champions League places. I think it's too soon for them to challenge for a title. I don't, I don't think they will fail to score a lot. I don't think they will keep clean sheets a lot either. I think Arsenal next weekend is, is much more of a litmus test of, you know, this great attack. How does it stand up to a great defense and how does their defense stand up to a bit more of a stronger attack than they've maybe faced in in Fulham and Brighton? And if you want more on Chelsea's win over Brighton, check out Simon Johnson's matchpiece on the Athletic titled Jabbie Alonso is giving Chelsea fans football they want to watch for better and worse. This is the Athletic FC podcast with Emma Payton. Now elsewhere on Sunday, we saw Manchester United get their first win of the new season. Karris, you were at old Trafford, watching the game against Ipswich. You were not there working. I was not. It was there for, for pleasure, not work. I don't know. It's always for pleasure. No, it's not. No, I think it's nice to still have a little bit of separation from when I'm there, you know, with my dad in the stands. It's enjoying. Well, ideally enjoying and it got more enjoyable as it went on. Yes. Well, let's talk about that then, because obviously United having to come back from one kneel down, what did you make of the game as a whole? Is it a bit more old a coach of the game, really? Yeah, definitely. I think the first half presented kind of the same problems in terms of just struggling with direct play, with counter attacks for United, I thought their right-hand side really struggled with that kind of combination of leaf Davis and Dyson Mayader at first. I thought that was a problem area, dealing with crosses into the box, remained a problem area. But I think, you know, there was a gift of an equaliser really with that slip, who's really, really well taken in terms of both the past from Kuhn, you're on the finish from Bruno Fernandez. But I think it was a stroke of luck that Carrick's team really, really needed. And then I thought, in the second half, Ipswich really struggled to come back out in the same way that they had in the first, I think, had they gone into half time, one kneel up and potentially, you know, had that spirit in the team talking, addressing them at half time, then they might have been able to make a bit more of a go of it in the second half. But as it was, they just didn't really have an answer. They kept getting tired and more and more stretched. And they really, I thought the goalkeeper really struggled to hang on to the ball as well. I think, you know, I could have had those at least one goal that came from kind of following up a parry in the box and there could have been probably one or two more than that. So Ipswich didn't perform anywhere near as well, kind of in the second half, their performance have already dropped off. But with all that said, like the nature of Man United, I think, Carrick will be really pleased with the fact that they came from behind. That feels really important. Obviously, there was a penalty involved, there was a controversial goal involved, but some of the play and the kind of patterns that we saw seeming to gel again between the forward players were really good. Coby Manu had a superb game. I think he's given, you know, Carrick a lot of good decisions to have to make in the midfield and Bruno Fernandez. I thought ironically he was actually quite quiet at first half, but that just didn't answer at all. But like you say, maybe Coby Coby to be starting again from Man United fans. I think so. Just what's really interesting is, you know, when I saw the lineup and saw him sort of looking as if he was going to be in that deepest position, I was a bit concerned, like, would he be able to influence the game in the same way? I think the fact that it was against Ipswich who play kind of maybe more direct in a game against a side who try and kind of dominate the midfield a bit more, I wonder if you would want a more defensively minded six and then someone like Manu in in the eight, but as it was because there was a little bit more space and freedom for him to move in at times. It didn't matter too much and I thought, you know, for him to show that he can do a job in that position was excellent and his ball retention, I think, is still superb kind of in-tie spaces. Some of the passes he was picking out, his work rate throughout, he gave a really, really good account of himself. What did you make of it because it felt like I know there's always pressure on Man United and they're just united, but especially off the back of that hold of feet because you're playing two newly promoted teams to kick off the new season, it felt like, you know, they needed to produce, you know, and they did in that second half. Yeah, I think playing a Gary and Neil team, they're going to be more open than you really feel like they should be going to Old Trafford and so it ensued and you look at the fortune of not just the first goal, the second goal as well and from that, I'm just wondering you look at the side, you look at what they put out and there's the lack of real turmoil within the squad and I mean this in a positive way of players coming in, yes, there's two players, the midfielders that have grabbed the headlines, yes, it's a new midfield from Manchester United, with that sense of feeling of having the same notion of conceding and the worry and the stress that has happened over recent years, the lack of change within the dresser might have a factor in whether they need to do a little bit more before the close of the window, but knowing Michael Carrick like it, he won't be bothered by that, he's all about, like you said, the patterns are played, the process, he's very pragmatic guy and I think you're looking at a side that undercooked last week was the word I think he used this week, getting more up to speed but certainly had that element of fortune to it. It does feel like they still need defensive reinforcements, doesn't it though, and I mean the deadlands tomorrow. Yeah, I think left back is still an area that to go into the season with, that could be a long season with Luke Shore, is kind of the starter without a super clear back up behind him, you know, Patrick Dorgers, we kind of touched on last week, seems to be, you know, being put in this left wing role, that's where he came off the bench to go into yesterday, Harry Amass at the moment is still at the club, but you know, we've reported consistently throughout the window that there could be potential for him to leave, so that will be another left back option gone. So whether they bring in another left back in the kind of final 24 hours or so of the window, I think is, would be the major question and I think that, you know, we saw, I think Masarawi come on to play at left back off the bench yesterday, so maybe that's another option that's being considered in case nothing does get over the line, but I think that's definitely the the area of the squad that will look most concerning for fans at the moment. I mentioned Holland minute ago. How surprised are you, the fact that they've got, I mean, won their first two games? Yeah, and you look at how they've done it, and that's not the surprising bit. Was it the playoff final to get to watch them get promoted? And they have the shape, the five four one, they stand there and say, what have you got? And they do it so well, that they nullify the opposition, and they did that again at the weekend, and it's, it's been a wonderful start for them, and that dream start against Manchester United, and then back in it up at the weekend, and they scored the goal that they score, you know, a break away, and they have that one combination of two, maybe three passes tops, and a way they could have scored more. So I'm not surprised that they've managed to pick up a nicker couple of wins in the manner that they have. The worrying part for them is that they won two on the bounce, and the last team to win two on the bounce for the own in games of the season, and still get relegated, we're whole. Oh, sorry, I'm sorry. It's a fantastic start for them. When you're in that dressing room, those wins, those clean sheets are just absolute goal. I was going to say you've you've no doubt been in dressing rooms of newly promoted sites, and the start is so important. Massive. You look at the games played, and you work out what games you've got coming out at the points you might take from them, and from the start, if you can just get your first win, and your first clean sheet out the way really early on, and get ahead of your games played, so you're in a positive difference from there. It just makes every game that bit easier, and conversely, if you start slipping behind, I'll have Coventry. I was going to say the fact that they, you know, opposite aren't they? The fact that they've opened up with two defeats. Yeah, no goals, and you just worry then tough games, tough outcomes, and you just start to just look around to say in the dressing room, who's going to stand up here, who's got the quality to change the the outcoming games, and I'll remember being at QPR, and we've the same at West Ham, and when you're down there, you go to the toilet just before walking out to the dressing room, and I'll be stood next to Scott Parker, or Charlie Austin, and you turn around and go, you've got to score today. One of you, like, you've got, and they turn to me and go, you've got to keep, and that, that pressure builds, all of a sudden you're thinking as a kid, you're saying that, and literally to your own teammates. Yeah, you know it falls on certain people, and that's, that's then the pressure that builds up in yourself, and it becomes bigger and bigger as the season goes on. Well, joining us now in studio, and not virtually, is Seb Stafford Blocker to see you. I feel like whenever we speak, it's behind a screen, basically. Yeah, it's good to see you in person, you're real, you know. I'm actually real, so you make people say that, and I walk through the door, and it's, it's underwhelming. Yes, what are you doing here? Yeah, you're short, and I thought you were going to be, yeah, yeah, I'm looking great. Yeah, you've had a busy few days, we're going to get to your interview with England Captain Harry Kane for the latest, my game and my words on the athletic, but you also took care of the briefing, which is recapping the weekend's Premier League action, to busy weekend, wasn't it? Yeah, I did a hospital pass of the briefing, because you upset a lot of people when you, when you write it, because you have to have a big opinions in Captain Letters. It was, it was a fun one, because it's, I don't often get the chance to do much Premier League work anymore, so kind of nice to step in and, uh, wash the games and, and, uh, yeah, navigate the fans, run the go on the other day. Yes, that's how it goes, I think. So you watch Spurs lose two nil at home to Newcastle. Jay Harris, by the way, has got a match piece over on the athletic, which opened on a quote from Roberto Deserby's post-match news conference, which said, you can't buy mentality in the transfer market. I mean, is or was spending a loan ever going to fix the issues at Spurs? No, to me, and Jay's accent piece really hit this nail on the head, to me, there's a lot of muscle memory from last season. So they survived, but if you watch Spurs now, I think the players who are there are still carrying some of the scars. And I think up until the first goal, considered Spurs, they pretty well, they were not great, but they were competent, they did some nice things. I think most fans would say, uh, the technical level in the middle of the team, supply possession, these things have improved and they're moving the ball in a better way than they were. But I think you saw the first goal goes in really well taken from Anthony Alanga, that's kind of avoidable. And then all of a sudden, uh, you can see a bit of creeping down, to a bit of panic, and you can hear in the crowd too. Um, I've never played professional football, I'm sure Rob would say when the crowd is nervous, you could probably sense it and you got that feeling. So you can't import that. I think you have to correct it by remembering what it's like to win. Remembering what it's like also to overcome adversity. So to come from behind in a game, to deal with a bad decision, or in my opinion, a bad decision, the failure to give a, give a penalty for the challenge among a mish. And the players just need to get through this and you can't, you can't just buy a player and fix it like that. I'm just going to read some of the stats from Jay's piece over on the athletic because some of them are stark to be honest with you. Spurs, of course, finished 17th and back to back seasons and I've lost 41 of their previous 78 top flight matches. They've suffered 11 defeats at home since the start of last season, which is the joint worst record in the Premier League, along with Wolves. And since January 2025, Spurs have taken 55 points from 59 league games. I mean, Rob, you were, you were there on the weekend working. How far off, off-jelling, the Spurs look at the moment. Well, it's just not their team. It's not the strongest 11. They, they haven't got that. Matisse tell is fit and so plays. I don't think he'd be anywhere near the strongest 11. You're looking at, they sent a forward in a Mahmoud shoes, not a number nine. He, doesn't want to play there. He keeps drifting out of that position. They're desperate for a number nine. And you know, I deserve to be saying, well, you can't buy mentality. Going back to Chelsea, they signed Jordan Henderson and Danny Welbeck for entirely that reason. So you can buy mentality. You've just got to be clear about it. And it doesn't feel like Spurs have done that yet. I thought Matisse Fernandez was a bright spark in there and is a cut above everybody else. They just didn't get the ball to conversely. Newcastle had nickel consulates making his debut. Got the ball to him all the time. And that was the first goal. And it was avoidable because we all saw them do it about five or six times in the first half. And it's just that sort of thing that is still in Tottenham's game. And the piece is not fit in Pedro Poro on the right wing. So much of it doesn't fit right now. And it goes back to, well, they get the strongest 11 together. Then they'll be all right. It never happens. It doesn't happen for Tottenham. So you've got to find an answer with what you're given. Karis, they've spent over 300 million pounds this summer. A lot of money. A lot of that is concentrated around their midfield and defense. David Ornstein has reported on the athletic over the weekend as well that they've struck an agreement with Everton to sign Illumann and Jai with Richardlison heading back to Everton. Is is that going to fix their issues? I mean, no, it's not going to fix them. They definitely need more quality in the final third. They need a more clinical edge. I think I agree with with Seb that they were the better team largely before Newcastle scored. But then the confidence seems to go. I think that's the major issue. I think Mattis tell, you know, has caught a lot of flat for his performance. They need to add more quality to those positions. I don't think a striker would hurt either. But that I think that they're seeing that all this money that they spend is not an immediate fix. It needs time to gel together. And so I think there needs to be a bit of patience there. But then the caveat to that is that they brought Deserby in kind of so early to hopefully to kind of mitigate this need for patients and to be able to hit the ground running and that's not really happened. And that comes back to this thing of being in the habit of losing. There's one noise worse as a professional than hearing the crowd go, oh, here we go again. And that's when the seats start hitting them. When they start clacking back and everyone starts to leave. Now Tottenham found stayed at the weekend until the pretty much the end. But it takes a huge amount of reserve from within yourself to go, no, this isn't going to happen. I've got 60,000 people or whatever, all going downwards. I've got to lift this up. And you look around your team and say, who else is going to lift this up? And right now you can't really see in Tottenham's 11, but it has to come from them from within the players. And also to the point about kind of signing mentality, that's part of the reason for having someone like Andy Robertson, right? So that they do know that there's that need and they have tried to address it. I think it's just that they have they have spent so heavily, they have brought in so many players and the expectations are not not necessarily high, but the expectations are certainly that they would see the impact of that spending at this point, even if it wasn't perfect. I think that's the that's the kicker at the moment. It feels also like when you make those mentality signings and Andy Robertson, you can bring him in, but then your social structure is probably needed a bit of time to develop because, okay, so someone like that's come in, he's won the Premier League, he's won the European Cup, he's huge experience, he sees something in the environment he doesn't like, let's not do that. Those kind of things, those corrections, whether it's a football club, an office, a school, whatever, it takes time for people to kind of adapt their behaviors and for the impact of someone like that to to be felt. I also think it seems to me now and this is a very old person thing to say, I sound like my dad, but there's so much noise like in the atmosphere when you spend a lot of money and you lose a few games, it's no longer really acceptable to go, calm it down, it's going to be fine, just give them a few weeks on the training ground because also this time last year, as far as we're two from two, they beat the man city away, Thomas Frank is going to take them back to the Champions League and that proved to be the forces to full storms and so it's logical to point at this and go, hey, it's what it is, it's always going to take a little bit of time, look what happened to Dezerby when he tried to build a new team at Brighton and go very well to start with, but for a professional to hear the noise after so much spending, it's got to be very, very difficult to push through on top of all the natural pressure that comes with performing in that situation anyway. I do think that if they can do that, there's a good team, the quality and the technical ability is so much higher than it was last season, the players they've signed, okay, they're not, they're not ballon door winners, but they're a lot better than the team they were using last season, the materials Dezerby's working with are far superior, so I just think with a bit of time, but patients allow them to lose a little bit and also say, look, compared with the Brentford defeat, Newcastle was a measurably better, Brentford dreadful. Absolutely dreadful. That's a progress. I am scraping this far, but it's also it's a fair point, there was an improvement, the confidence level was higher, some of the players that weren't playing in the Brentford game were back and it had a difference and so there is a kind of a trajectory and okay, I'm in my 40s now, so winning isn't quite as important as it used to be, but as long as there's some progress, I'm kind of okay with the Emma. All right, so bring us some positivity. It's Monday, the sun's out. I know, I know. You're listening to the Apertik FC podcast with Emma Payton. So, let's get on to your chat then with Harry Kane. Especially with this boss now here at Bayern with Vinnie, the way we play, the high press, winning the ball back high, it's been a big reason why I scored a lot of goals as well. You've watched him a lot with Spurs, with England and with Bayern Munich. First of all, what was it like speaking to him and just interviewing him? It was a delight. He was a great pleasure to speak to, also learned a lot from talking with him. It's not often you get to say that because I think sometimes players are a condition to give very bland answers and I completely understand that because it's right to be risk averse, but we sat down, we looked at some of the his goals and the best moments from last season and he was great. It was one of those interviews in which you get out of the way. You ask question and you let the person speak and he was wonderful. It was kind of a shame you don't get to see that version of him more often because he's someone that's put a lot into his craft, has invested a lot of himself into improving his game and that was true when he was young, when he was mid career, even now when he's a veteran at Bayern Munich and he's kind of really not got very much left to prove. He's still finding ways to do that. I don't think the way he spoke about his game and the way he sees football split seconds, a split second. It's fascinating. This job is often a real privilege and especially on occasions like that, of course. I'm alright in saying you played with him when he was first breaking into England. It was a wonderful time for me to be introduced to him, played against him, a lot played against him when he was coming back from an injury at West Ham and played a reserved team game against Tottenham under 21's and he was part of that and you just saw him and it wasn't there then. You saw brighter lights in Andrews Townsend or an Aaron Lennon and players like that. For him, it wasn't quite there. He was thinking, well, I'm not sure what's going to happen. Then he broke into the first team and it was like, wow, you can see that dedication, the difference and then came into the England squad and when my first England squad, Garas Southgate called me over and said, come sit with me and I just thought that was really kind of Garas Southgate. So if we're with Harry Kane, we're on this bus and he came along on the bus and said, I'll come sit here, chat to him. We bonded over Stick Cricket for the app, the game. I love us. I'm a sucker for a stupid useless game on your phone. So we bonded over Stick Cricket and yeah, very, very affable guy always got time to speak to you. But on the pitch and he's interesting. He wrote that, he written that piece and he talked about that goal and there's an opponent when he gets in that time in that space. He's taught that split second. You know as a player, there's a split second, you're done. And that's what happened when he went when you're on the pitch against him. When you're in training, you're starting to go, he's area of hitting with such power and accuracy is so small, he hits that final area and just going bang and you know you haven't got a chance. I think I think the thing I took away from it is how quickly he processes so much information because we spoke about the DR Congo goal. We also spoke about the goal he's scored against Real Madrid in the first leg of the Champions League qualifier and it's the the one right at the beginning of the second half where Bayern break and he scores from the edge of the box. And he was talking me through all the different aspects of it. So what position he takes up when Bayern breaking, what he's looking to happen at the end of the move, what he's expecting of his teammates, what kind of ball he needs in from Michael Lise on the right side. And he's also tracking right, where is the the fullback who should be outside me, where is the the real winger who should be tracking back to cover me. And all of these things, he's got a handle on and that's kind of, it's like a very, very long mass equation which determines how you take the opportunity, which side of the goalkeeper you go to, all the things he's noticing in his peripheral vision. He also said he trains a lot with mannequins because you know, as Rob just said, like the game happens so quickly that often when you come to take a chance, you don't know who the defender is, you just have the shape of a defender in your in your in your in the side of your your your periphery. And so you're kind of your what kind of finish of my what can what kind of angle can that defender take away. What does a goalkeeper not want to face? And it was yeah, it was like sitting with a chess grandmaster, right, all these things that are happening and you're thinking, oh, I can I can barely like make a phone call and type at the same time. So how are you doing this? But it he was very he was very gracious with this time and he was yeah, it's a delight to speak to you. It was really interesting hearing him talk about like his passing and that side of his game as well because obviously he's thought of as a goal score, but we saw for England and obviously for Bayern as well how we can kind of drop deep and and dictate like how does what came across from kind of talking to him about that is that side of his game that he kind of sees as as important or is it just like this auxiliary thing that's kind of happened. Yeah, he's he's almost a little bit the news by the reaction to it in the current day because he said when I was an academy player, I played him and filled a lot. So I understand those areas of the pitch. He also said in the interview, you know, when I was an academy player and I was in the youth teams, I would arrive to training an hour early, a minute teammate would just stand on opposite sides of the penalty box and write for left foot, right foot, driven pass, flow to pass, chip pass, cut, you know, through the back of the ball. Because I'd always thought I've watched him from kind of year zero, I suppose. And the different pass was passing games seem to have been added over time because he's always had that big driven crossfield. He's always had like the ability to kind of to pass with power, but there's a there's a finesse to his passing now. There's an imagination and a craft to it. And he says, no, that's not something I've developed. It's always been there. It's just that different coaches have given me different opportunities to use it. So, whereas with Richard Pochettino, who's kind of more of a nine, I think he kind of started to drift back more under Joseph Maria Antonio Conte. And now with Vincent Company, he's kind of playing a 10, 8, 6 between his two centerbacks. And so what you're seeing is the opportunity to use that entire range rather than just the bits that are useful in certain parts of the pitch. So you're seeing something that's already been there, but just it's been kind of Well, if you haven't already, make sure you do check out Seb's piece over on the Athletic. Now, before we go, who could forget tomorrow is Transfer Deadline Day. We'll be bringing you a live stream at four o'clock tomorrow afternoon on the Athletic FC Pogcast YouTube channel. So make sure you join us for that. David Ornstein is going to be here in the studio for that, but let's wet the appetite on what could be in store. Well, I said last week it promised to be one of the busiest ends to a transfer window we've seen for some time. And that certainly appears to be the case. The most notable deals in recent days involve Bradley Barker, the Liverpool, Emmy Martinez Chelsea, Gabrielle Martinelli, Al Hilal, Ibrahim and Bay, Aston Villa. But there is so much more rumbling behind the scenes. What's going to happen with Cody Gackpo, if he leaves Liverpool, who will they sign to replace him? There's the situation of Illiman and Die at Everton, Jack Relish, a possible right back and striker signing linked with Flo Balagan of the US men's national team. Tottenham, Rachelesson, Kevin Danso, across at Chelsea, Mikaela Mudrich and potentially the biggest one, Enzo Fernandez, linked to them with the mean Camara of Monaco, Manucone of AS Roma, will Arsenal reinforce their front line? There's the Julian Alvarez case that remains unresolved. What about Manchester United? Is a left-back going to come in? Nick Valtamarde's future at Newcastle United Fernandez, Pardo of Leal, linked with them. And so many more, the list goes on. We're going to have a very hectic finish before that 11pm UK deadline. Stay across everything on the Athletic will keep you posted as this summer 2026 market draws towards a close. Well, yeah, you heard him. I feel like he's going to have a very busy 24 plus hours coming up. We'll also be taking over the Athletic FC's Instagram account as well. So we're going to be bringing you a little flavor of how Deadline Day and all that chaos unfolds here in the Athletics Newsroom. I feel like David covered it pretty much everyone there, everyone, every club. Who do we think is going to be the busiest before that 11 o'clock deadline? Who's going to be the busiest off he should be? Well, let's, you're taking. I think Everton have quite a lot that they need to do. I would say agree. Yeah. I would say left field full of need to do a bit and also possibly Brighton just with the amount of games. I don't think they'll be in trouble this season, but scores are looking thin and if they've got so many games in Europe as well, it's going to be a big factor. I think Palace and Newcastle should be in the midfield market. Different types of midfielder, but think Newcastle and you need a creative sort. Palace could probably do with an extra eight box to box type just because it looks a little thin in that department. I already interested to see what happens with Enzo Fernandez as well. Yeah. Well, because if he goes Chelsea, will they look at a replacement? How do you replace him at that short notice? We've obviously seen them play without him. Largely, I know he came on against Fulham, but for the first couple of games. So that feels to me like the biggest sort of domino that if it falls will send like quite a big scramble going on. Definitely. Thank you all of you if you're company today. Thanks to David as well, who I think was walking the dog at the time, but we appreciate him doing his transfer round up. I'll be here in the studio with David tomorrow for our transfer deadline day live stream. So make sure you come and join us for that. You can keep across everything until then over on the athletic. We'll see you tomorrow.