🎙️ The Athletic FC Podcast •September 17, 2026 •⏱️ 38 min

Why does JJ Gabriel want to leave Man United?

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1. Executive Overview: Core Theses & Key Revelations

When news broke on Tuesday that 15-year-old Carrington prodigy J.J. Gabriel had submitted a formal request to leave Manchester United, the reaction across the footballing landscape was immediate and polarized. To casual observers, the episode registered as a bewildering snippet of modern player petulance—a teenager yet to sign a professional contract demanding an exit from one of the world's most storied sporting institutions. However, an exhaustive analysis of The Athletic FC Podcast episode titled "Why does JJ Gabriel want to leave Man United?" reveals that Gabriel's transfer request is neither an isolated anomaly nor a simple case of adolescent hubris. Instead, it marks a watershed milestone in the structural evolution of global youth football, exposing systemic fractures at the intersection of financial regulation, geopolitical legislation, and changing developmental psychology.

The conversation—featuring senior investigative reporter Matt Slater, chief sports correspondent Adam Krafton, Manchester United insider Andy Mitten, former England goalkeeper Rob Green, and host Kate Mason—dismantles the narrative that Gabriel's situation is merely an internal Carrington disciplinary matter. The panel established several core theses that define the modern elite academy ecosystem:

  • The Pure Profit Accounting Paradox: Under the Premier League's Profitability and Sustainability Rules (PSR), homegrown academy players carry a zero book value. Consequently, selling an 18-year-old prospect for £40 million generates 100% pure profit on the balance sheet, creating a perverse financial incentive for cash-strapped clubs to monetize youth assets rather than integrate them into senior squads.
  • The Post-Brexit Regulatory Trap: Following the United Kingdom's exit from the European Union, FIFA Article 19 restrictions barred English clubs from signing overseas European players between the ages of 16 and 18. This regulatory wall forced domestic academies into hyper-aggressive internal recruitment, shattering long-standing non-aggression agreements ("truces") between top English clubs and pushing European superpowers to target English talent directly via EU passport loopholes.
  • The "Lamine Yamal Effect" and Distorted Pathways: The extraordinary rise of Barcelona's Lamine Yamal, alongside contemporaries like Pau Cubarsí, Max Dowman, and Ethan Nwaneri, has recalibrated the psychological expectations of elite adolescents. Prodigies who dominate three age categories above their birth year increasingly view standard developmental patience as career stagnation, demanding immediate senior exposure and Champions League minutes.
  • Institutional Duty of Care vs. Hyper-Commercial Exposure: Modern elite academies face an operational contradiction between protecting minors from volatile senior environments—such as stepping into an Old Trafford stadium amid team collapses and supporter discontent—and satisfying the demands of young players who possess global brand recognition and social media followings long before their professional debut.

Perhaps the most striking revelation of the discussion came from Adam Krafton's investigation into Gabriel's digital footprint. Krafton revealed that Gabriel now follows the Real Madrid cantera (academy) and over half of Real Madrid's senior first-team squad on Instagram. This subtle digital posture signals a broader trend: top-tier teenage talent is no longer bound by traditional domestic loyalty, recognizing their immense leverage in a hyper-competitive global marketplace.

2. Context & Background: The Landscape Leading to This Conversation

To fully comprehend the seismic nature of J.J. Gabriel's transfer request, one must inspect the historical and immediate context surrounding Manchester United's academy infrastructure. For over seven decades, Carrington has stood as a beacon of youth integration. From the Busby Babes of the 1950s to the Class of '92 and modern figures like Marcus Rashford and Alejandro Garnacho, youth development has served as the bedrock of the club's identity. At the physical heart of Carrington hangs a wooden awards frame displaying the names of every winner of the Jimmy Murphy Young Player of the Season award. Gabriel made history as the youngest recipient in the award's history, earning recognition while competing significantly above his age group.

As Andy Mitten noted during the podcast, winning the Jimmy Murphy award does not guarantee stardom—historically, only about 50 percent of winners establish themselves as first-team regulars. However, Gabriel's trajectory appeared singular. Having joined Manchester United at age nine after relocating from London, Gabriel earned glowing technical evaluations from coaches across Carrington. Described as two-footed, lightning-fast, and obsessively devoted to goalscoring, Gabriel routinely played two to three age groups higher than his chronological cohort. Following a recent fixture in Leigh Sports Village where Gabriel scored a hat-trick, Mitten described meeting the player outside the tunnel, capturing a photo that went viral across fan networks. Yet, beneath this public excitement, tension was brewing between the club, the player's family, and external representatives.

This internal friction unfolded against a backdrop of acute first-team instability at Old Trafford. The podcast discussion took place immediately following Manchester United's disastrous Carabao Cup exit at the hands of Brighton, where the team surrendered a two-goal lead to lose at Old Trafford. Former England goalkeeper Rob Green highlighted how senior team struggles directly compound academy dynamics. When first-team results deteriorate and supporters vent their frustration—chanting profanities at senior stars as they exit the pitch—the environment becomes exceptionally complex for teenager integration. Concurrently, absent players or unproven academy talents often acquire inflated status in the minds of supporters desperate for hope.

The contrast between Gabriel's exit request and the fortunes of 19-year-old Shea Lacey provided a stark narrative parallel during the broadcast. On the very week Gabriel submitted his transfer request, Lacey made his senior start for Manchester United against Brighton, scoring a brilliant goal and celebrating by kissing the club badge. While Lacey's ascension demonstrated that a tangible pathway into senior football exists at Old Trafford under Michael Carrick, Gabriel's gaze was already fixed on continental alternatives, demonstrating how modern youth strategy has fractured along ideological lines.

Dimension Traditional Academy Model (Pre-2016) Modern Elite Academy Model (Post-2024)
Recruitment Scope Regional scouting, local catchment areas, and European EU 16-18 scouting networks. Intense domestic talent hoarding, global social media scouting, and EU passport arbitrage.
Financial Valuation Developmental assets nurtured primarily for first-team sporting contribution. Liquid balance sheet capital providing 100% "pure profit" under PSR accounting.
Player Expectation Step-by-step progression through U18, U21, reserves, and loan spells before senior debut. Expectation of immediate senior minutes at 15–17, driven by continental benchmarks (Yamal, Cubarsí).
Regulatory Truce Informal non-poaching gentleman's agreements among top domestic clubs. Breakdown of domestic truces; predatory continental poaching by Real Madrid, Bayern, PSG.

3. Deep-Dive Thematic Breakdown

3.1 The PSR Accounting Imperative and Pure Profit Mechanics

The financial mechanics governing modern football have fundamentally altered how clubs view their academy products. Senior news and investigation reporter Matt Slater provided a detailed breakdown of how Premier League Profitability and Sustainability Rules (PSR) create unintended, distortionary incentives. Under standard sports accounting standards, externally acquired players are registered as intangible assets whose transfer fees are amortized over the duration of their contracts. For instance, a £50 million signing on a five-year contract incurs a £10 million annual amortization charge on the club's balance sheet.

Conversely, academy players carry no initial purchase fee; their book value is effectively zero. When a club sells a homegrown player—such as an 18-year-old academy star fetching £30 million to £40 million—the entire sale price is recorded as immediate capital gains, or "pure profit." In an era where Premier League clubs face severe point deductions and regulatory sanctions for PSR non-compliance, selling homegrown talent has become the preferred operational lever for financial stabilization. Rather than keeping bright academy stars to build sustainable sporting success, executive boards are incentivized to sell them to balance accounts, while simultaneously purchasing replacement players whose fees can be spread over five years. This accounting dynamic transforms academy players from sporting investments into liquid financial buffers.

"The beauty of academy players is they're free. There's no amortized cost of this intangible asset. If I sell a bright young thing at 18 or 19 for 40 million, that's pure profit." — Matt Slater, Senior News & Investigation Reporter

3.2 Post-Brexit Structural Realities and the Breakdown of Academy Truces

The geopolitical reality of Brexit introduced a radical structural shift into English football academies. Prior to the UK's departure from the European Union, Premier League clubs routinely utilized FIFA Article 19 exceptions to recruit top 16-to-18-year-old talents across Europe. Elite English academies brought in future stars from Spain, France, the Netherlands, and Portugal at minimal cost. Post-Brexit, English clubs lost access to EU 16-to-18-year-olds entirely, restricted to signing overseas players only after they turn 18 and satisfy strict Governing Body Endorsement (GBE) work permit criteria.

This regulatory restriction forced English clubs to turn their attention inward, triggering unprecedented competition for domestic talent. Historically, elite English clubs maintained an informal gentleman's agreement—a non-poaching truce designed to prevent escalating bidding wars over teenage prospects. However, as Matt Slater emphasized, the loss of European youth recruitment shattered this truce. Academies began raiding rival domestic setups, offering lucrative compensation packages, family employment arrangements, and private education funding. Concurrently, European superpowers like Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern Munich, and Paris Saint-Germain recognized an opportunity: by exploiting dual-nationality EU passports held by British teenagers, continental clubs can sign elite English prospects before they reach 17, bypassing Premier League financial muscle entirely.

3.3 The "Lamine Yamal Effect" and Skewed Developmental Timelines

A central psychological driver behind J.J. Gabriel's transfer request is what Adam Krafton termed the global normalization of teenage phenoms. The sensational emergence of Lamine Yamal—who established himself as a starting winger for Barcelona and Spain at age 16—has established a new mental benchmark for elite prospects across Europe. When 15-year-old players see Yamal dominating international tournaments, or witness Pau Cubarsí starting in Champions League knockout fixtures and Max Dowman featuring for Arsenal, their perception of standard developmental timelines is drastically altered.

For a player like Gabriel, who has excelled at every age level and dominated opponents three years his senior, traditional patience can feel like institutional restraint. However, Krafton raised significant concerns regarding the psychological and cultural realities of such demands. Demanding immediate first-team involvement or threatening to leave for Real Madrid creates severe dressing-room friction. As Krafton posited, walking into an elite senior dressing room like Real Madrid's with an attitude of expecting Champions League minutes at 15 presents an immense cultural clash. The expectation gap between what an adolescent prodigy believes they deserve and what elite senior management can practically integrate represents one of the most volatile friction points in modern sport.

3.4 Bio-Banding, Relative Age Effect, and Modern Talent Identification

The podcast highlighted how sports science and talent identification methodologies have evolved to manage adolescent development. Matt Slater discussed how elite clubs are increasingly adopting advanced bio-banding techniques—grouping young players by biological maturity (height, weight, skeletal age, and peak height velocity) rather than chronological birth dates. Derived from rugby and ice hockey frameworks, bio-banding prevents physically early-maturing players from dominating purely through size, while protecting late-maturing talents from being overlooked.

Furthermore, bio-banding addresses the Relative Age Effect (RAE), a long-standing systemic bias where children born in the first quarter of the selection year (September to November in England) receive disproportionate selection and coaching investment simply because they are older and physically more developed than peers born in the final quarter (June to August). While sophisticated clubs use bio-banding to build holistic, long-term developmental strategies, these scientific frameworks often collide directly with the desires of players and agents who insist on immediate chronological fast-tracking into senior squads.

3.5 Duty of Care vs. Commercialization: The Carrington Dilemma

Ground-level insights provided by Andy Mitten underscored the delicate duty-of-care balance facing Carrington staff. Speaking with Manchester United U18 coach Adam Lawrence, Mitten noted that academy staff operate under a clear directive: "My job is not to ruin this boy." Technical excellence and physical speed are only two components of player readiness; emotional maturity, psychological resilience, and behavioral stability are equally essential.

Exposing a 15-year-old child to senior football is fraught with risk. As Adam Krafton observed, forcing a teenager into a senior environment amid a team crisis—where frustrated supporters are singing profanities at players returning to the tunnel—can inflict lasting psychological damage. Carrington coaches are tasked with evaluating technical, physical, and psychological metrics simultaneously. When a club slows a player's integration to safeguard their long-term career over the next 15 to 20 years, but the player interprets that care as a lack of ambition, the institution finds itself trapped between professional welfare responsibilities and modern commercial pressures.

4. Speaker Perspectives & Analytical Contrast

The panel on The Athletic FC Podcast brought distinct operational, investigative, and sporting lenses to the J.J. Gabriel story. The contrasting viewpoints highlight how different stakeholders in the football industry interpret youth development, corporate strategy, and player autonomy.

Panellist Professional Role Core Thesis Primary Concern Strategic Perspective
Adam Krafton Senior Investigative Journalist Adolescent expectations are distorted by social media and global anomalies; clubs must prioritize long-term welfare over short-term player demands. Digital posturing (following Real Madrid) and exposing 15-year-olds to toxic senior environments. Strong institutional culture, protective welfare protocols, and rigorous behavioral assessment.
Matt Slater Senior News & Investigation Reporter Macro-economic regulations (PSR & Brexit) have destroyed academy truces and incentivized the sale of homegrown talent. Financial fair play rules treating youth players as balance sheet rescue mechanisms. Legislative intervention, parliamentary scrutiny (DCMS inquiry), and structural FFP reform.
Andy Mitten Scouting Expert & Man United Insider Gabriel is a rare generational talent, but Carrington coaches are rightly committed to measured, holistic development. Hype cycles clouding realistic physical and psychological readiness evaluation. Ground-level coaching assessment, balanced family communication, and historical perspective.
Rob Green Former England Goalkeeper Elite prospects seek the clearest pathway to senior football; age is irrelevant if physical and technical competence exists. Blocked first-team pathways forcing top talent to seek opportunities abroad or at rival clubs. Player-centric pragmatism, fast-tracking ready prospects, and clear senior opportunity structures.
Kate Mason Editorial Host Gabriel's exit request reflects a structural evolution across European leagues, forcing clubs to buy talent younger. The hyper-acceleration of elite youth recruitment breaking traditional club-player bonds. Global analytical framing, tracking multi-league structural shifts, and cross-border comparisons.

A clear analytical friction emerged between Rob Green's practitioner perspective and Adam Krafton's investigative caution. Green, drawing on his own career at Norwich City—where financial necessity forced the club to fast-track 13 youth players into the senior squad in 1996—argued that elite players naturally demand progression regardless of age. From Green's perspective, if a player excels across every age group, holding them back due to arbitrary birth dates risks losing them entirely. In contrast, Krafton stressed the profound danger of treating a 15-year-old child as a senior savior, arguing that Carrington staff have a fundamental obligation to evaluate behavioral readiness and shield minors from hostile environments.

Concurrently, Matt Slater's macroeconomic analysis provided the systemic backdrop that contextualized Andy Mitten's reporting. While Mitten focused on the personal dynamics between Gabriel's family, coach Adam Lawrence, and the Carrington hierarchy, Slater demonstrated how broader forces—specifically PSR accounting mechanics and UK parliamentary inquiries—dictate executive decision-making above the academy level. This analytical contrast illustrates that modern youth transfers are no longer decided purely on the training pitch, but are shaped by boardrooms, balance sheets, and regulatory frameworks.

5. Strategic & Industry Implications

The fallout from J.J. Gabriel's transfer request carries profound strategic implications for Premier League clubs, continental European titans, and regulatory governing bodies across world football.

For English Premier League institutions, the Gabriel case represents an existential challenge to academy investment models. Clubs spend tens of millions of pounds annually operating Category 1 academies, providing state-of-the-art facilities, specialized coaching, sports science, and private education. However, because players cannot sign professional contracts in the UK until age 17, clubs are exceptionally vulnerable to losing their finest assets during the 15-to-16 age window. If continental giants like Real Madrid, Bayern Munich, or Paris Saint-Germain can entice elite British prospects using dual-nationality EU passports or lucrative pre-contract guarantees, Premier League academies risk becoming expensive feeder systems for European rivals.

Concurrently, the episode highlights the impending regulatory intervention facing English football. As Matt Slater revealed during the podcast, the UK Government's Department for Culture, Media and Sport (DCMS) Select Committee recently announced that its top priority for parliamentary investigation is English football's academy system. This parliamentary inquiry will examine critical structural issues:

  • The financial exploitation and monetization of minor athletes under PSR frameworks.
  • The role of unregulated intermediary agents operating in youth football.
  • Educational standards, mental health safeguards, and duty-of-care provisions for discarded academy players.
  • The breakdown of domestic recruitment ethics and talent hoarding by wealthy clubs.

This parliamentary scrutiny, combined with potential reforms to FIFA transfer rules and Premier League PSR guidelines, suggests that the unregulated era of adolescent talent acquisition is approaching its boundary. Clubs that rely on aggressive hoarding or balance-sheet monetization of academy products will face increasing legal, political, and reputational resistance.

6. Looking Ahead: Unresolved Questions & Next Milestones

As the J.J. Gabriel saga unfolds, several pivotal metrics and milestones will determine whether this moment remains an isolated Carrington dispute or triggers a systemic restructuring of youth football governance:

  • Gabriel's Immediate Landing Spot and Legal Status: Whether Gabriel completes a move to Real Madrid's cantera, joins a domestic Premier League rival, or reconciles with Manchester United will set a major precedent for minor registration disputes. The exact mechanism of his departure—including training compensation calculations and FIFA clearance—will be closely monitored by global legal departments.
  • The Outcome of the DCMS Parliamentary Inquiry: The findings and policy recommendations of the UK Select Committee investigation into English academies could lead to statutory regulation, mandatory education quotas, and restrictions on youth transfer compensation structures.
  • PSR Accounting Reform: Premier League executives are under increasing pressure to modify FFP guidelines regarding homegrown player sales. If regulators adjust the "pure profit" accounting treatment to remove the perverse incentive to sell academy graduates, clubs may return to prioritizing long-term squad integration over immediate balance sheet relief.
  • Standardization of Bio-Banding and Welfare Frameworks: As European clubs navigate the "Lamine Yamal Effect," institutions will likely formalize bio-banding metrics and psychological readiness assessments as mandatory criteria before accelerating minors into senior training environments.

Ultimately, J.J. Gabriel's desire to leave Manchester United serves as a powerful mirror reflecting the modern football industry. In an era where financial regulation treats teenagers as capital assets, global media elevates 15-year-olds to international stardom, and geopolitical shifts disrupt historic player pathways, the battle for the future of football is no longer fought merely on the pitch—it is forged in the complex interplay of regulation, economics, and human development.

💬 Key Quotes & Speaker Breakdown

J.J. Gabriel transfer rumors

"I was looking at who J.J. Gabriel follows on Instagram this week. He now follows the Real Madrid cantera, which is the Real Madrid Academy, and about half of the Real Madrid squad."

— Adam Krafton

"I don't see a sort of immediate pathway into that Real Madrid team. I imagine walking into that dressing room and saying, 'I might not train this week because I think I should be playing in the Champions League.'"

— Adam Krafton

J.J. Gabriel prospect

"He's the best player not just in his age group, but a couple of age groups up. He's the youngest ever winner of the Jimmy Murphy Young Player of the season award at Manchester United."

— Andy Mitten

PSR and transfer strategy

"The beauty of academy players is they're free. There's no amortized cost of this intangible asset. If I sell a bright young thing at 18 or 19 for 40 million, that's pure profit."

— Matt Slater

Brexit impact on academies

"English academies lost access to EU 16 to 18-year-olds because of Brexit, which meant they became even more competitive about the best talent here. Everyone's game was up."

— Matt Slater

Government investigation into academies

"The UK government announced their next list of investigations, and number one was English football's academy system. It's going to be quite a meaty chinwag amongst MPs."

— Matt Slater

Manchester United academy management

"It's not just about making an individual happy this week. It's about a team, a culture, and also this player's career for the next 15, 20 years."

— Adam Krafton

Youth player development

"I do think there will be this feeling within some of these 15, 16-year-olds that they genuinely believe they've seen a handful of players do it, and they think if they hear about this 15-year-old, he can play."

— Adam Krafton

Youth player pathway

"If you're good enough and you're ready, then you are. Whatever age you are. And you get the opportunity to prove that. If he's scoring goals at every level, he wants to go to the next level and keep going."

— Rob Green
📜 View Full Episode Verbatim Transcript 38,964 characters
Hello and welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Kate Mason. On Tuesday, Manchester United were rocked by Academy star J.J. Gabriel putting in a request to leave the club. Today we'll be getting into how and why this happened and what it means for academies across Europe's top five leagues. It is Thursday, so on the Athletic FC, as always, I'm joined by the Big Hitters. In studio, I have both former England goalkeeper Rob Green. Hello. And we dragged him down from Mackelsfield. Hello, Matt Slater, senior news and investigation reporter. Hello, Kate. And in New York, as ever, we have sports journalist of the year, Adam Krafton. Hello, you just said Manchester United were rocked yesterday. It feels like they are rocked every day at the moment. And even those down days between the game days of becoming quite, quite sort of overwhelming. Anyway, I presume we're going to get into that. It's rock and roll football. We're going to be shortly joined by Andy Mitten from Talk of the Devils, who has watched J.J. Gabriel extensively. Let's start with the football show. Things went from bad to worse, really, on Wednesday, Bryson coming from two goals down to win an old Trafford knocking character side out of the character. Adam, how bad was that collapse on Wednesday? Well, I watched the first 10 minutes. The first 10 minutes were really good. And I said to my partner, I said, I'm just going to pop out and get a coffee, because it was the middle of the afternoon in New York. And then I called my mum, and she sort of stayed on the phone for about 45 minutes. And then I came back in, and the game was very different. And the world was falling apart from Manchester United. So based on what I've seen since then, and all the analysis, it looks like it was absolutely awful for everything apart from those 10 minutes. But we're going to cling to those 10 minutes, because the 10 minutes I saw were fantastic. Yeah, and of course, Robin, the context of the J.J. Gabriel story, and it had a young player from the academy scoring the first goal as well, but things nose dive from there as Adam points out. Yeah, and it doesn't take much of the minute to change the tone within old Trafford. And you feel that the outside noise, obviously, is bringing additional just distraction away from what's going on the pitch, which if it were positive, then you say, it might be a good distraction, but it's not. And you're looking at to say, how can you help Michael? How can you help the players on the pitch? And it certainly isn't helping right now. It feels like there needs to be just a shift in terms of the players taking the ball by the haunts and really taking games by the mantle. They struggle with that when they're being asked the question and just each little thing like this compounds it and players get better when they're not playing. And all of a sudden, the 15-year-old is getting better by not being involved. It's a 15-year-old child, J.J. Gabriel. Yeah, he wants to move football club. Why is this Jordan so much interest? Well, I think one of these men united, everything man United related is on a different level to every other club really in this country. To the specific context about man United at the moment, they haven't been where they would expect to be for a while now. So there is this kind of like when, when, when, when, and whenever they have some hope coming through, I think they get amplified. I think there's a little bit of residual, did they do enough this window? Okay. And then they obviously had some tough results. I think it's quite interesting they changed the team as lots of people do for this competition. So we saw a lot of these younger people they've been buying recently and they, you know, they didn't quite deliver did they? So look, I think it's United, it's context. I also think that we know so much more about players coming through now. Certainly, Mike, you know, I've got two of my kids and my United fans. They know, they've been talking about this guy for a while. It's all over social for a while, his goals. He's got a, did he score a hatchery against Liverpool? All they absolutely killed them, didn't they? Well, there was the sabber hatcher. So, so my kids are aware of all this stuff, you know, they're not watching 90-minute games, but I assure you they're what, they know all about JJ Gabriel's best goals. So I think it's, it's sort of that wider context too. Well, let's bring in someone who has watched JJ Gabriel closely. It is talking the devil's co-host, Andy Mitten and the great to see you. Tell me, how much of a blow would this departure be? You've seen him more than most. Just how good is he? He's the best player not just in his age group, but a couple of age groups up. As you said, he's the youngest ever winner of the Jimmy Murphy Young Player of the season award at Manchester United. So his picture hangs in the middle of this sort of wooden awards frame at the training ground. And when you look at the names who've won that award, it's only like 50-50 as to those who do go through and establish themselves as first-team regulars. But then there are some great players in there as well. So there's been a buzzer about him for a long time. He joined the club, moving up from London when he when he was nine years old. And I've spoken to multiple people who've coached him and worked with him and everyone says he's a nice kid. Now I've watched him play football. I was at least bought his village last first day. I watched him score a hat trick. And then after the game, I was stood by by the tunnel by myself. And he ran in with the match ball. And I took a picture and I put it onto Twitter. And I got lots of excited responses from young Manchester United fans who are absolutely sure that Lena Messi or Neymar or whoever is ready to go in the colours of Manchester United. And then I spoke to his coach Adam Lawrence. And he sort of infused him as very positive about him but was quite measured as well. And his message was, my job is not to ruin this boy. And I know that Manchester United have had a lot of ups and downs with the family. But the impression I got was they were in a positive place. And then the tech record has went off and I know Adam and he speaks in a strong south London accent. So all we spoke about then was the fourth come in Milwaukee West amgame. And then a couple of days later, we saw the news that JJ Gabriel was not going to play for Manchester United anymore. He's excellent for his age. He scores a lot of goals. I asked his coaches for a technical perspective. They say he's quick. He's too 40. He loves to score. He stays behind after training. All about scoring, scoring. You know, I didn't get any any red flags when I spoke to people and I've seen him with my own eyes about him as a young footballer or as a young person. Okay. So that's the context of how how good this kid is. He's playing up all these age categories. Rob. So obviously he's ahead of his development level. But we're talking about someone who's 15 and is looking for opportunities to play first team football for Manchester United. That feels kind of bizarre from a layman's perspective. No, no, I think you've you feel that if you're good enough and you're ready, then you are. Whatever age you are. And you get the opportunity to prove that. And if you can take the step up, you do that. And if he's scoring goals at every level, he stepped up out and he's excelling at every level. Well, he wants to go to the next level and keep going and keep going. So for me, it's not an age thing. It's no real surprise. And you say, one of the top players in the world wants to leave like Manchester United, run his contract down whatever way you put it and go to another big club in Europe. Then we add into a fact it's 15. It becomes extraordinary. But you you take all that into context. He's fairly powerful. The course. Okay. When did you first start realizing you might get a chance to play? I was at Norwich and I was still at school. I was 16 and I was traveling with the first team. And we went to West Brom on a Wednesday night and we lost five one in my first game involved. And then travel to Port Vale on the Saturday and lost six one. And both trips, I was cooking the meals on the way home was one of the main trips. But Norwich will broke at the time. So I was fast track, fast track, fast track because there was nobody else. I don't think Manchester United in the same position. And I said, well, we saw 19 year old Che Lacey start and score for United in this game against Brighton Adam. So it looks as though there is absolutely a pathway for these young talents to come through. Yeah. And it was interesting, right? That Che Lacey started that game amid that backdrop. And it may be total coincidence. It may be that it was always the plan this week for Che Lacey to get a start. I think there's been a lot of excitement about him. He had his, he got a couple of games in January when Darren Fletcher was there when he's been on the bench a few times. And he looks, you know, pretty exciting. And his goal was obviously fantastic. I saw a Twitter account which appeared to belong to him, sort of posting sort of how much he loves the club also just on that same day. Again, like, I think some people interpreted that as, you know, oh, I love the club. And all this is going on with another player. I think it was probably just, it was the day before his debut and he was excited about it. And then obviously Kiss is the badge. So there is this contrast, I think, that enabled him to really play into the fans and scoring helps. And I think on the JJ Gabriel point, you know, I do think for all the questions that you can put against Manchester United and there's so many both now and over the past few years, they have good academy coaches, right? And it is these people's jobs to develop young, as Matt said, children, children into not even adults into young men. And they have access to a lot of material. They will have access to every technical assessment, physical assessment, probably even psychological, behavioral. And it's their job to make a judgment on what this person is ready to do. And it may be that JJ Gabriel is technically ready. It may be that he is technically and physically ready. And if looking at him, I'm not sure he is physically ready, but he could be. It may just be that they think, behaviorally, they're not sure whether he's ready for that level of exposure. They may be protecting it. This may be welfare. And we don't know, because we're talking about a child and I'm even kind of uncomfortable speculating about everything that I'm speculating about now. But I do think it's important at a point where you've got people basically chastising Manchester United for not putting a child on a football pitch in front of 70,000 people bearing in mind last night Manchester United fans were singing to their players, you know, what the f***ing hell was that as they were coming off the pitch, right? Is that something you want a 15 year old walking off to? So these are all the things that Michael Carrick and the coaches below him, the executives above him have to think about, because it's not just about making an individual happy this week. It's about a team, a culture, and also this player's career for the next 15, 20 years. My arsenal have given first team minutes to both Ethan Winnery and Max Salman as 15 year olds in the last four years. Do you think that's normalized the idea of getting to the first team at that age? I guess so. I'm always I agree with everything that Adam just said by the way, but I I'm always kind of wary of like, residency bias. So it feels new, right? But, but, you know, you, you saw teenagers play. Yeah, this, it's not that, you know, runies, not that long ago. And before that, we had, was it John Boster? I'm trying to think of some of the players from the... Dan O'Connor-Martin as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So it does feel like we've had a few recently. I'm thinking was it last season Chris Rigg was pretty young. We had Rio and Gammawa. Obviously, Max Damien really mentions. So if you're the old adage, isn't it? It's an, it is an old adage, you know, if you're good enough, you're old enough. And I mentioned that you know, have got, as Adam points out, a really good track record of developing Salman. And he knows that as well. So they know what they're doing. We're not passing to all the information there. I do, I do think that perhaps we're all a bit impatient. If you're a man you're nice to fan for the reasons I was explaining before, in that you have seen this kid on your phone, you've seen the clips slightly out of context because he's playing with other youngsters, but you've seen the clips and you're sort of also seeing the product and you're thinking, wow, you know, I'm not sure. It's definitely not a place in this team for this guy who's growing bangers, you know. So there's a bit of that. Andy, on the back of this, is it an overall picture from Manchester United is not so much of an embarrassment to lose him, but the message it sends to all the other kids involved in their academies. So you're going to look at Manchester United youth systems. Famously in the 50s, it was the best of Osby Bay's game for you. Then you had the class of 92. And then there was a period of decline. Manchester United became complacent. In 2015, I wrote a very critical piece about the state of the youth system because rivals, especially Manchester City, but also Liverpool, Everton, you've got a lot of clubs competing in a very small geographic area. This is not an issue that Real Madrid and Barça have, for example. And then into 24, one in the heads went, all right, we remember your article, come in, access all areas. So I did it for the athletic and I spent a couple of days inside Carrington and I was allowed to go wherever I wanted. And I quickly gathered that wasn't just about recruitment, but retaining players. It was almost as hard to retain the players because the rules post Brexit. And I know you may discuss that later, made that a major issue. So Manchester United weren't pandering or pampering, but they were just to keep these young men happy. And I was there on the day that Shay Lacey signed his professional contract. And Nick Cox, who's in charge of the academy, said, okay, you've got yourself to the start of the race now. These things are going to happen in your life. You're going to earn this much money, you're going to have all these new friends. You've got a long, long way to go. I think the United have had a good academy. One, the youth court, not that that's the only measurement because there's a cup competition. And the new people, led by Jason Wilcox, who brought his own people in, a lot of them from Manchester City, they've got good experience in this area. I have enough parents and people and I know the coaches, brother played football with after coaches because they were semi pro or pro footballers around Manchester. And it's a well-resourced academy, probably the third in the country. And United has been quite aggressive going to clubs like Tottenham and signing players, I think, will make the first team. They're looking for a slightly different pro-vailer player now than they were that three or four years ago. But I think I'm on fairly safe ground saying it is a very good academy. And JJ came in and there have been flare-ups with his family and parents have been an issue, not just with JJ, but with other players. But Manchester United, as you alluded to, the coaches are used to this. They want to create, they don't know identify a player just by in making a first-team debut and becoming another statistic. They want to develop good young humans. And I genuinely believe that when I've spoken to these people, they know they're not going to make it at all traffic. They're playing everywhere. And there's a highly competitive environment to get the young players in. So I've been told in the last two, three, four years the chances of keeping JJ were not a given. I've spoken to six or seven people since this news broke. And I'm getting a pretty consistent feedback on this. It's a good club with a clear pathway, historically proven pathway into the first team. And the coaches have got to decide is he ready or not? I was there preseason. He was in Trondheim, didn't play. I was there in Stockholm. He came on against athletic home Madrid. He's a child. He looks like a child. However prodigiously talented he is. He's still a 15-year-old who has to change in a different dressing room to the other players. And I think Manchester United have managed him carefully. And they've said you've got to be patient. Andy, thank you so much for joining us today. It's been really great to get your perspective. See you soon. Okay, so some really useful context there from a Manchester United, the perspective around this specific JJ Gabriel picture. But can we just talk about this in a broader context? Because we've all mentioned, or this has all been relevant here, that these players that are being traded or deciding what to do with their future, it seems to be happening at a younger and younger age. And presumably, this is connected to something we've been talking about for all of the last few weeks, which is that it costs a lot of money to buy a fully grown 25-year-old. The fully grown Rob Green. Yeah, well, you don't have to tell me. But yeah, I think... Get him young. Get him young. I think, yeah, but I think that is the context we're in. Yeah, it really is. Look, I think there are lots of ways. The lots of ways I can ask that question. So I'm going to keep it simple and do two. I'm sort of the acronyms guy here. So one is the PSR stroke, CR, Bivaran will be living, right? And I think enough people have got their heads around now, the concepts of amortization, which is basically just how football accounts for their best asset. Stadiums will be the next best asset are their players. So how do you account for those on your balance sheet? Well, you do use this thing called amortization. So I buy Rob Green for 50 million quid. I've got one of five, it's absolutely absolute. That's what Goldie cost these days. Five-year contract. So I amitized that 10 million a year, because that's the length of your contract, because that makes sense, because at the end of your fifth year, you're worth nothing to me, because you can walk, you can go on a bozzamon, right? So the beauty of academy players is they're free, right? You didn't pay any, there's no amortized cost of this intangible asset. He came through your system. So if I sell Rob Green in year three, he still has 20 million book value for me. I sell you for 40, because you're on the slide. Rob inevitably. Right, but I still have 20 million profit to me. I sell Bright Young thing, 1819 for 40 million. That's 40 million. That's pure profit. So there's that, right? Have that in your head. The homegrown players, whether they become legends, one club legends for your team, let's be honest, there's not many of those these days, or they just become a tradable asset going forward to help you compete in the modern environment. Let's do that. So there's real competition, get them in young, but a bit of kind of trawler fishing going on here. Everyone knows how hard it is to get to the top. So all clubs are doing that because of that. This plate is either going to be great for my first team, or they're going to become a tradable asset, and maybe we'll sell them because we're not quite sure and we'll have a buyback clause, we'll have a sell-on clause. There's a lot of that going on. Football club is pretty sophisticated businesses now, so there's that. Then I think the other thing that's really influenced what's going on now is Brexit. So when we were in the EU, this is not a party political thing. When we were in the EU, there was freedom of movement, which meant a 16-year-old talented Belgian or 16-year-old talented Italian could come and work in the UK. Now they can't. There has to be 18, and that is because of home office rules and kind of how people move around. So English academies lost access to EU 16 to 18-year-olds, which meant they became even more competitive about the best talent here. So suddenly, everyone's game was up. It's like, oh my God, so once my time I used to be able to get a brilliant kid from Paris or Brussels. Now, I'm looking at Manchester, South London, that's where the battle is. So those things have changed, and those things have kind of really kind of stoked up this battle for talent. It's a really good point from the club's perspective, but then you put that from a player's perspective, a young player, and it's saying, we are getting traded off and pawned off by these clubs to balance books at the age of 17, 1890, and we've seen players move from Ascent Villa to Chelsea back and forth, who they've not even played a first-team game or played two carabell cup games, or how they were 30 million pounds, or something like that for what is essentially teenagers or kids. So when that filters through a club and when it filters through a dressing room, your attachment to the club that you grow up with, that you are being nourished by or nurtured by goes, they don't care, because the club don't care about you, because you are a pawn in this trading machine. So it is no surprise that this is becoming more and more from the other side of the point offensive from the players as well. Yeah, to talk more about what Matt has said as well, there's a great piece in the athletic this week by Jordan Campbell called Academy Boers, if you want to read more about this, is about how the big six clubs are all competing with each other increasingly. In the context of JJ Gabriel himself, Adam, he is an English player, as Matt has mentioned, and that has intensified this whole conversation, but he is being reported as connected with Roma Dread. Can you explain that? Yeah, I presume he's good at football. What? I think it helps him that he appears to have some Irish heritage, and he also appears to have some Greek Cypriot heritage. Now, I don't know what passport he does or doesn't have, or what passport he may or may not be applying for, or be in the process of, but obviously, if he has one of those passports to a country in the EU, I presume that would make it much easier for him to move to Spain. And Real Madrid are definitely interested, you know, we've reported that I am cautious of saying there is only kind of deal done, because I think, you know, I spoke to someone early in the week who said that they'd heard it kind of reasonably, sort of directly, you know, from someone close to the family, but it's also possible that people close to a family can say that something's nearly done and be exaggerating, or give the impression of it's close because it's, you know, there may be certain people may want it to have that impression, so that Manchester United produced a slightly higher offer. I don't know, right? There's lots of things that could be going on there, but definitely I think Real Madrid, Barcelona, have been interested. Every major club in Europe is aware of this kid, you know, there's no secrets anymore because you have scouts all over the continent, but you also have access to, I'm not sure what platform it is, they use now whether it's Y Scout or Hidal or all these different ways that people can watch Academy Games, agents obviously talk as well. So, you know, for sure they'll be interested. I think it would be an curious move to go to Real Madrid. I mean, when you think of those players that have left England over the past maybe decade, 15 years at a very early age and done really well, it's not really been by going to Real Madrid. You know, Real Madrid is not even a finishing school, it is straight into the office, you know, and if I think of the players who are at Real Madrid, I mean, you see, you're going to get minutes ahead of Vinicius, Mbappe, Diamande, Brahim, SP, Gula, Bellingham. I mean, I imagine walking to those, that dress of him saying, I might not train this week because I think I should be playing in the champion league, right? And I don't mean that to mock him or the family, but, you know, I don't see a sort of immediate pathway into that Real Madrid team. So, when I think of the, what would be, because we've been, people have been critical in the past of parents for making what some might consider a controversial decision that maybe turn out to be a brave decision. So, you know, the Bellingham's and the moves that they've done turned out to be fantastic moves, right? Every stage, you know, however, forceful the family may be at certain points that they clearly had a plan that was executed in a pathway. You know, Jaden Sancho did fantastic in Germany, his problems came when he came back to England. And there's lots of examples like that. So, there can be an argument for making that brave decision to go and develop yourself in a different country or the different language and put yourself in an uncomfortable environment with a clearer pathway for young players where they don't have maybe the finances to go out every summer like a Manchester United or Chelsea or whatever to go and spend another 300 million where they have to use their young players. But Real Madrid, to me, doesn't seem like that club. I would say, this is the kind of sad place it's got to this week for journalists. I was looking at who JJ Gabriel follows on Instagram this this week. Well, and he now follows the Real Madrid cantera, which is the Real Madrid Academy, and about half of the Real Madrid squad. So, clearly there is you know, something going on there with Real Madrid. And also, yeah, I mean, it is interesting. What Matt said about his kids, I mean, my nephew who probably spends far too much of his life on TikTok, for sure, you know, he was saying to me this week, like, what's going to happen to JJ Gabriel? It wasn't what's going to happen to, I mean, his team Manchester City after winning a Manchester Derby and everything. It was JJ Gabriel. Tell me what's happening with JJ Gabriel. So that he, in the world that he inhabits, he is really famous, which is weird for kind of us that most people could not tell you anything about him. But in that kind of algorithmic world, he is super famous. And that must be quite disorientated. Number one, most search player on Transform Arts today as well. I'm not surprised. Rob, such an interesting point that Adam is making about, you know, what is the point necessarily of going to Real Madrid? Maybe there's an argument to be made for going somewhere. I'm not trying to, sorry, sorry, Kate. Yeah, exactly. Like the idea of meridian is going to put a 15-year-old into the first team. No, not at all. Exactly. I take your point at times 10 in that context. But there could be arguments as we're discussing about when you're trying to make these plans, like the Bellingham's did, to get to the next level in your career. Or do you feel like if you're good enough, stay at a particular club and just work your way through it? What's your view? They call it pathway now. But it is, the number one thing is that route into the first team. It doesn't matter at the level, supposedly. It is, can you get there and is there the opportunity? And it's, you're looking, I went back to that season. I was at first at Norwich in 1996 and I looked through the squad and there were 13 players from the youth team in the first team squad. So there is a clear pathway and I wasn't, I wasn't named on there as one of the players. But it is, you're saying, that's why you went. I go up in, sorry, South London, around the region and could have gone to a London club, but the pathway was better at Norwich, so left home at 16. If you're leaving to go to a route that is better, whether it's a step up or a step down in terms of size of club, I don't think it matters. There is that route and you will be developed and you will be looked after. If there is an answer to an ulterior to that, then I think you're doing it for the wrong reasons. I think the reason that we're having this conversation and the reason we're going to deepen it is, of course, because as Adam's pointed out and as you've pointed out and as your kids have pointed out, this young man is extremely famous due to a number of factors that are all working together. But also, we've got to keep returning to it. The reason this is happening is and he's going to keep happening and is going to get more intense is because you have, or the realization from some of these clubs who aren't going to be competing with Premier League clubs normally, is that you have to buy players younger because otherwise you're not going to be able to buy them at all. Well, 100%. And I do just another plug for Jordan's piece because Jordan's piece, which is about, really, it kind of, he wrote it before this story, but it does kind of explain, it's the context, isn't it, that for a long time, there was a kind of truce, a kind of, I think you could almost say, it was a cartel, that you wouldn't poach, you wouldn't poach each other's youngsters, right? Because that way lies ruin, right? We have had some bouts of that, you know, Liverpool and Man City having a massive fallout over kind of poaching his other players. And you know, you get lots of arguments over how much a sort of 15, 16, 17-year-old is worth and they all have to go to a tribunal and blah, blah, blah. And you hear these stories about underhand people being offered jobs, parents being offered jobs, kids being offered private education and that, you know, it just, it just becomes, whoa. So there was a truce, it was kind of like, we'll just back off, I like develop a room for a bit. And then because of the things I've been talking about, you know, the, the PSR environment, this desire to, this, this need, this necessity to generate as much revenues you can to put the best products on the pitch. And I think this Brexit catalyst, which forced all clubs to kind of look at home first for talent, that has kind of broken the truce. So, so the JJ Gabriel thing is interesting because it's like, where would he go? You know, our one of Man United's rivals, because we, you know, he came from London, he could easily go back to London, right? You know, is it Chelsea? I'm, I'm literally just trying to clubs out there, you know, it spurs whatever. Yeah, well, I think because that's what's going on. All the truce hold is JJ Gabriel almost too big or is JJ Gabriel's decided, you know what, I'm not doing that because why would I swap Man United from another big six club? I, I'm, I'm, I'm going to use my, my, my EU passport, which we're not sure which one it is. And I'm going to go, boom, I'm going to, I'm going to skip that stage. I'm going to go straight to buy MPSG, Barcer Real. I think everything you guys say is right. I do think there's something else going on here with young people. No, I think, I think you're about this because I think you're about Naminio Mal and I was thinking about Max Downman and I think about Paul Kubasi. And I just wonder whether we are possibly entering a period whereby the age at which players enter first teams gets younger on a more kind of consistent basis. And, and I think there is something that's happened with Laminio Mal where he is obviously a freak, right? I mean, I mean, I mean that as a compliment, an unbelievable talent, but I think it gives those players who are at the biggest clubs and consider themselves to be the best players and who are told they are the best players and expectation because I think they might look at Laminio Mal and think, well, physically he didn't look very like there was anything on him, you know, two, two and a half years ago. And Max Downman obviously got his nod and one year he got his nod, Rio and Gammawer, another one as well. And I do think that might be contributing here to the expectation that some of these players of whatever level J.J. Gabriel and his family considered him to be. And, and also what when we were talking about Matt's kids, my nephew, they sort of expect, I think they think if they hear about this 15 year he can play. So I do think there will be this feeling within some of these 15, 16 year old that they genuinely believe they've seen kind of a handful of players do it. And I just, I don't know, that's just another theory that I wanted to add into it. Yeah, and it makes sense, right? Because we're talking about him playing up an age group all the time. You can see why he might specifically J.J. Gabriel, but other players. Not Kate, sorry, not just one age group. Yeah, three. Yeah, exactly, right? And it used to, I was listening to the Carregor Neville podcast this morning. Carregor was saying that, you know, when he was at Liverpool coming through, he might have played up a year and thought that was amazing. Now it's like, if you're not playing three or four up, then that's almost seen as being behind in some way. It's just a kind of sign of the changing times. I presume that's based on his own sun being coming through academism, what he's seen there as well. Also, the age of these superstars, right? All of so many of these players who are the big players at the World Cup, etc. are very young men still. Yeah, I mean, I'm intrigued by the, I think Adam's onto something there, but some of the things I've been hearing, you know, clubs talking about biobanding. So not being so obsessed about age, being more obsessed about size, wait, maturity, because people have mature at different age groups. It was an idea that I know that was really big and rugby. It's certainly New Zealand rugby. They sort of don't worry so much about age groups. They look at you and go, yeah, it's a bit like kind of matchmaking in boxing. Yeah, okay. You're ready for that level. We'll hold you back a bit. So I'm hearing about that. I'm hearing about clubs being very conscious. Again, this came from ice hockey. There's a famous book about it. About school, the importance of school age. So if you look at any kind of cohort of a professional sports system, it's kids born early in the year because they were the biggest. They made the team. They got the extra love and attention. They were the ones who were like the stars. And they were mature. Yeah, kids born in the last quarter, they get ignored. So some teams started to do double, you know, we'll split up into, we'll do six maps of six months. So I'm hearing lots, basically what I'm trying to say is that football is quite sophisticated. You know, it's our number one sport, huge amounts of money. An awful lot of thought goes into this. And yes, they're going to be some kids who are accelerated because they've got it. They can handle it physically and mentally. There's other kids that are going to be given like a bit longer because they're not quite ready. They're late bloomers. I think sports quite good at this. I think football's got better at this. I just think JJ Gabriel is obviously one of those really, really interesting cases where, you know, is he a living email? Like throw him on the pitch. Let's see how he goes. Or does he need a year or two? And I don't know. Do you know? And the last thing on this topic more broadly, how timely is it that the UK government of this week announced a new round of their state of playing quarry map? I think it just goes to show that this topic, this general topic is percolating out there. People are talking about it. So, so the cultural media and sports select committee, a group of MPs whose job it is to hold, there's loads of these select committees. They could be one for defense, education, blah, blah, blah. And your job is to hold the minister to account. What is the government doing in these fields? So, cultural media and sport, the job is to hold Lisa and Andy, who's the minister for cultural media and sport, to account by what is the government doing in these areas? And they take on topics, they take on investigation. So it could be gambling. It could be the license fee in the BBC. And one of the things they've taken on, they actually said, they actually did a kind of consultation. What would you like us to look at? And people wrote in and said, well, I'll let you to look at this. And number one, yesterday they announced they announced their next list of investigations. Number one. Why haven't Tottenham scored a goal yet? Well, that'll be the next slide. I mean, God, the whole podcast series of the things they're looking at. But number one, I noticed yesterday was English football's academy system. So it's going to be quite good, meaty chinwag amongst MPs and they'll get some experts. That's quite good. They'll get they'll get someone from the Premier League, the FA, they might get someone from big club. And they'll ask them some questions. And at the end of the day, these are talking shops. But I was more just sort of interested that, oh, you know, the timing was unbelievable. They announced their next set of investigations. And it's the English Academy Football Academy system. Why do you think that is? Well, I think it's out there as a cop. Just the people that talk about it. It has nothing to do with JJ Gabriel. No, right. It literally would have been there's something going on. We'll find out. We'll find out. I look forward to reading your extensive and thorough and beautifully Western reports on it. Just a reminder before we go that if you're an NFL fan, the athletic has something very exciting. For you, it is the athletic live presented by Google Gemini. It's a brand new YouTube watch along on NFL game days featuring the biggest and best beat reporters the athletic has to offer. You can become part of the show in the interactive chat as well. That is the athletic live presented by Google Gemini on YouTube. And that is it for us for today. Thank you everybody. Matt and Adam, you'll be back next week. Are you coming back? Have you enjoyed sitting in a room? Oh, coming back. You're coming back. This is not massive. Real, do it real. Love that. Adam will have to get you over soonish. Thank you so much. Not tonight. We'll be with you tomorrow for our tactical preview of the weekend's big games as well as discussing the importance of pressing in the modern game. Looking forward to it and we'll see you then.