The Anatomy of Collapse: Inside Spurs’ Crisis and Liverpool’s Rebuild Paradox

The Athletic FC Welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Ayo Akimolero. Four games, four defeats, 14 goals conceded, and a goalkeeper subbed off after 17 minutes. So what is next for Spurs, and you got you done? With us today we have our Spurs correspondent Jay Harris who've also got our football correspondents as well, David Ornstein with us. All right, Gents, this time last week we were talking about the situation at Tottenham Hotspur. I genuinely didn't think we'll be back in this week in such depth talking about Spurs once again, but yet here we are. So let's look at the defeat firstly at Palace last week last Thursday, and then we'll look at the defeat on Tuesday night in the Champions League to Athletic Homo Druid shipping, five goals to Athletic Homo Druid J. Spurs skating on some seriously thin ice at the moment. They're just completely imploding. If you look at what happened against Crystal Palace, Mickey Van the Venn's red card, let them conceding three goals in seven minutes just before half time, and the game was over a game they needed to win, and it was a very similar situation last night. They conceded four goals inside 22 minutes. That's the sign of a team that's incredibly low on confidence and doesn't know how to respond to setbacks. I don't want to get to ahead of myself here, but in terms of Igor Tudor, the interim head coach, it's four games in charge, four defeats, one red card, one goalkeeper subbed off after 17 minutes, 14 goals conceded. I think every decision he's made during his spend in charge has backfired. Players alone, confidence are being played at a position. Tudor has just not jelled with the players of the fan base whatsoever, and Spurs still have what nine games left to save their season, but serious questions need to be asked as to whether Tudor is the person to do that. Jay, I thought the Crystal Palace defeat was perhaps more damaging, just because every Tottenham fan you speak to talks about Premier League survival. I know the circumstances of Atlético Madrid were remarkable, painful for anybody connected to Spurs, and really chasing that, and we'll come on to talk about Kinski and the scoreline, but Crystal Palace was on home soil in the competition that Tottenham cannot even contemplate falling out of. They were outplayed, another red card. I thought Fulham, they would get something because of the seriousness of their predicament, they would come out with the draw, and it wasn't taking anything away from Fulham, who were a great team, especially at home, and Marco Silver's a top manager, but Tottenham are good enough to get something there. When they didn't, you come back to home soil and whatever you do avoid defeat, and they know they're not going to win the Champions League, so it was almost like a shot to nothing, they've probably caused more damage than they should have, but that Palace one was just brutal. I think with the Palace game, firstly, Palace were without Max and Stacquois, who suspended, and obviously they sold Gain in January, so that sort of backbone of Crystal Palace's defence, that they were missing two of their key players. They are in a very difficult situation at this moment in time on the other glass and as well, so they were a low on confidence. I think the Crystal Palace game, as you mentioned, because of what had happened the previous night with West Ham beating Fulham and not even for us drawing against Madden City, I really felt like this has to be the moment which prompts a reaction, and over the last couple of years that I've covered Spurs, there's always been one single figure that unites the fan base in hatred, which is a horrible thing to say, but that's the truth. Last season, it was Daniel Levy, and then for I guess maybe a small period of time, it was Angeposte Coglu, and then he got everyone back on side with the Europa League win. For the majority of this season, it's been Thomas Frank. Now Frank has gone, Levy has gone, I actually think the fans don't know who to vent their frustration at, and I think what I saw during the game against Crystal Palace was a real shame, because I saw fans turning towards the club's analysts in the press box and sort of shouting at them, I saw them turning towards the directors, what's in shouting at them, people left at half time, we put up a piece on the athletic, and we spoke to some fans who left, and they sort of said, we're resigned to the fact we're getting relegated now. There was one gentleman who wrote in and said that he's not going to take his kids to Spurs games anymore, because the atmosphere has become that toxic. Like, what a sorry state of affairs it is, you're completely right, the game against Crystal Palace is more damaging. I just think the comical manner of how they lost to athletic imagery, just sort of just reinforces that it's just a farcical situation, and that they just can't get any type of remedy or escape from it, no matter what competition they're playing. I mean, they like the Kingston cops at the back of the moment, aren't they top them? Don't keep a slip from them. Oh, he's got it again, my god. He's got it again. What is happening here? How are the rest? Kinsky all over the place. They're getting the car in already, down below is already. I was going to say we'll talk about two doors position, in depth a little later on at the time of recording, he's still in charge at Tottenham Hotspur, but you mentioned it there, David, let's talk about the Kinsky Vicario situation. Look, Kinsky started, I raised eyebrows and I thought, wow, young kid, big game. Obviously there are issues around Vicario's form right now, but were you surprised when you saw Kinsky and Colin also surprised by how the match ended up for the young man, who had to be held off after what, 17 minutes or so? Yes and no. So when he was signed and people you talked to around Tottenham, around the game, very highly rated young goalkeeper with a high bar, he can really grow into being a top operator in his position. And I think, Jay, correct me if I'm wrong, he was thrown in at the deep end, did he start against Liverpool in his first match? Yes, he did. Yeah, in a Carabell Cup semi-final tie. And he looked okay, actually, and he got a run in the team. I think Vicario was out injured and did himself no disservice or disgrace at all. We then haven't seen him pretty much at all since. And therefore, there have been grumblings in recent weeks from Tottenham fans, of course, and people have seen mistakes Vicario has made. Not always been well with Vicario. And so we have our conversations internally around all clubs. And one of the topics Jay will know on Tottenham heading into matches is we're hearing whisperers that Kinsky may be coming in for Vicario. So in that sense, it wasn't a total surprise. And we've seen he's a capable, competent goalkeeper. That said, it's up, let's go Madrid. It's the knockout stages of the Champions League. It's Diego Simione, the intensity, the atmosphere, at the Wonder Metropolitano. And we've not seen him for ages to prepare him for a game of any magnitude, let alone this one. That fills you with a bit of trepidation if you're a spurs fan. And as neutrals, we're looking at it and thinking, and one thing I'd point out is that when you look at that line up, finally, despite injuries who are keeping some of their top players out, it did seem and say what you want about the formation that he was playing players in the right position on this occasion. You had Archie Gray moved in into midfield. You know, the front line looked capable of causing some trouble, as it proved on the night. And it wasn't bad. You've got Romero back from suspension leading the line. But there was that anomaly at the back. Not much talk today has been about what on earth was going through his mind, not to play such a senior player. And over the course of his time at spurs, a dependable player. If we put some of the mistakes to one side, certainly it would fill you with more confidence than Kinski on that occasion. And so there was the possibility that things would go wrong. The nature in which it did was absolutely remarkable. It was kind of you couldn't believe what you were seeing. His errors, van de Venz, error, which shouldn't be forgotten about. Because I mean, there've been a litany of them recently, whether it be disciplinary or actual slips and mistakes on the pitch. It felt very harsh to take him off at that moment, even though you understood the rationale behind it. If you've seen this sort of thing in football before, mainly without field players, it would have been at half time. They could have had a conversation. We don't know exactly the conversation between players and coach. He was asked about it post-match in the press conference. Did Romero tell you to take Kinski off? And he said, no, it was my decision. So we can only take that at face value, even though there was a conversation between coach and captain on the sideline. And the way that he ignored Kinski when he came off, it wasn't like, could I just add something on Kinski? So it was his Champions League debut and his 23 on Friday. But what happened last night, in my view, is the culmination of 14 months of poor development planning from Spurs from across the club. Because as David said, when Kinski arrived last January from Slavia Prague, he played a few games in row because of the career he was injured and then he dropped out of the team again. And since then, he's barely played a tool. So I think in his entire time at Spurs, he's played 13 times in total. But this was only his third appearance of the season and the previous two went in the Carabell Cup. Spurs got knocked out of the Carabell Cup in October. So Kinski's not played a competitive game in five, six months and you're throwing him in at a deep end. And as David said, it's Kinski's someone who's regarded as a really talented goalkeeper, fantastic, expansive, passing range. But you've not played him for 14 months. So what do you expect when you throw him into a situation like that? So yes, Tudor should take some blame for making that decision. But it also goes a little higher up than that because there's just been no consistency in how they're going to develop these young players. And that's something that's been a big issue for Spurs. I know David touched upon Archie Grey playing in Central Midfield. In Tudor's four games in charge, Grey's played at right wing back, left wing back, and Central Midfield. It's chaotic. I feel for Archie Grey because his development is just completely stunted because he's just shipped between whatever problem position. Spurs need somebody in that week, he just performs a role. So all of these things have been adding up over a period of time and then they all unravel in a manner that they did last night. David, you know, Jay makes a really interesting point. And we look at the amount of young players that have been brought into this squad and people talk about player development in so many different ways. But is it hard to develop as a player when the infrastructure around you isn't solid? You know, the ideal situation would be to have a whole heap of experience around these players so they're able to be filtered in through the season, get that match confidence, you know, build their confidence personally and then we see what they might look like in the next two or three years. Yeah, as far from ideal IO and there was even speculation that Kinski was going to go out on loan for his development. He's gone from being taught about as a January loan to being called upon for an enormous fixture away to Atlético Madrid and Champions League last 16. If you think about the other top teams who at this stage of the Champions League, you got an arsenal they could turn and call upon Kepa who was the most expensive goalkeeper in the world. You've got Chelsea, say what you like about Sanchez but there's an interchangeable number one, number two there where you wouldn't think there would be that much difference. Newcastle, you know, I know Popes and I had the best time, what they do, they call upon Ramstale who's made a worldie of a few saves just recently. Manchester City James Trafford was meant to be Manchester City's number one. That's what he was told by Pep Guardiola coming into the season when he signed from Burnley and they went and got the best goalkeeper in the world. If they called upon Trafford when they do, he seems to do a perfectly good job. Liverpool, Marmadash Ville, one of the most highly rated sort of developing goalkeepers in the world when he came to Liverpool from Valencia. Step your ties like questionably you could say but he's already sort of in the higher echelons of goalkeepers in European football and then I'll extrapolate it over to someone like Souza who came in in January as a new signing. Many of the conversations I had when I was trying to find out more about him was that very likely he'll go out on loan for his development and that's part of the reason why Andy Robertson was targeted and Jay's talked on view from the lane about how important that potential signing would have been and what a miss it was that it didn't come through Robertson's experience. People raised an eyebrow at the time why they're going for Robertson while you're seeing exactly why they were going for Robertson now. It's a fair play for targeting for whatever reason it didn't come off. There's some sympathy for Spurs in that we can go over the quality of their recruitment and many of their signings but there has been some method to it. We've talked about it many times over the last few years. High-level young recruits like a Bergval, a Grey, a Kinski, a Mikey Moore coming through. He's an example of where it works better because he's gone to Rangers, he's played really well high-level intense atmosphere and you would like to think that if they scramble through to this summer and give the new ownership, the old ownership that now has full day-to-day control a summer market to recruit, to sell, to use what they've got from an experience point of you now, if the likes of a Romero and a Vicario and a Gallagher are going to be there, blend them with the Bergval's. You used to go to younger players like Desi and Yodogi when he's fit, the Kinskis, the Susas, the Mikey Moors and there is an opportunity there and there are personnel when this is a much better squad than Tottenham's strife would suggest, but this is so bad that it's got the capacity to damage players, damage the Bergval's and it is how injured and the grace of this world and that's why getting through to the summer without relegation is absolutely enormous on so many levels and one of those levels, a massive level, is to properly blend the youth, the experience, integrate the youngsters and try and get this moving in the right direction. This is the Athletic FC podcast with I.O. Akimolera. No, Jay, I don't know if he should be asking this now, but we need to talk about he got to do and whether or not he will indeed survive because we mentioned at the top four games four defeats, 14 goals conceded statistically. It's the worst ever start to a Spurs manager. Now, straight after the game, you were part of five athletic writers, along with Adam Krafton, Oli Kay, Seb Stafford Blur and Dan Kilpatrick to write about Spurs and whether or not they should indeed sack two door. What are your thoughts on this? Well, spoiler alert, all five of us, which might be the first time in athletic history, agreed that you should be sacked. Now, I'm not normally someone who calls for a head coach to lose their job quickly. I think I'm pretty patient. I like to see how things play out, but I had my doubts over to the suitability for the role from minute one and at the end of the day, he was brought in because he had a track record of quickly fixing broken teams in a short period of time, getting a knee jerk reaction and we've had the complete opposite of a new manager bounce. Like you said, four defeats, 14 goals conceded, players being put in the wrong position, players making very erratic decisions, a back five, but five goals are being conceded away from home. It's a mad situation. I also think some of the comments that Igor Trudeau has said have probably raised a few eyebrows inside that dressing room, you know, after the Crystal Palace defeat, he said something along the lines of, I've got a better idea of who is on the boat with me and if you're not on this boat, I'm going to leave you behind, clearly sort of insinuating that he thinks there are a few bad apples within that spur squad, which I think is true. You know, we previously reported that Thomas Frank had issues maintaining discipline in that squad, so that's not a massive surprise, but really what's first needed after the end of the frank rain was someone who had an affiliation with the club like Robbie Keane, Harry Rednack, Jermaine DeFoe, for example, who could put an arm around the shoulders of these players. I don't think Igor Trudeau has the cultural capital after a few games to start criticizing all the players and sort of kicking them when they're down. He needs to do the opposite. So I think he has to go, but as we have seen multiple times in the last year, the people in charge of the club at this moment in time, you know, the CEO of the Navigatechians wanting direct to Johan Langer, they've got lots of the big, well, they've got all of the key decisions over the last 12 months wrong. The hiring Thomas Frank turned out to be the wrong decision, although Daniel Levy was heavily involved in that, keeping Thomas Frank for as long as they did turned out to be the wrong decision and hiring Igor Trudeau has turned out to be the wrong decision. So do you actually have any faith that if they sack Trudeau, they'd be able to hire the right replacement, and I think the answer to that question is no. Okay. David and Nick Miller in his piece after the Atlético Tottenham match also said that getting rid of Trudeau would be a huge gamble, but it looks like keeping him would be a bigger one. Are you hearing anything? No, at the time of recording, he remains in the job, and we haven't had anything yet to suggest he's about to go famous last words. I think the rumblings before Atlético, and after Crystal Palace, in the industry, I must say, rather than specifically sourced info, was international break, gives him Atlético, Liverpool, Atlético again, and then they can assess with a bit more time. There is obviously still time to salvage the Premier League season. There are some winnable fixtures, not easy. When you watch those first four games, when you see the lack of impact so far, whether it was Trudeau's fault, he says deeper issues, probably a combination of both, you sort of, it's clear that it's not working, and there's no sign of under him it working. It would be no surprise to me now, and I'm just saying this is opinion, rather than information that he goes, maybe not immediately, but after Liverpool or indeed that international break, just a guess. If they don't, you sort of feel, I imagine Jay will be closer to the ground on this with Tottenham fans, but those I speak to, and it goes wrong, how dare you not try and rectify the error. So if they change him in the next days or weeks, they at least attempted to do so, whether they stay up or go down, they attempted to do something different, they recognised it was a mistake, it wasn't working, and whether it was the Videsman that, view from the Lainist talked about so much, and somebody, a figurehead that with real Tottenham connection, whether that person coaxes on the training ground or not, to get somebody in to try and lift the atmosphere, arm around the shoulder, give the players and staff a bit of love and try and just scrape their way through. But the extent they went to bring him in and the cost it would incur to get rid of him, no, no, no, the cost of going down is much more expensive than firing Tudor. So the way things are going, I'd be stunned if they see out the season with him. What do you think Jay, is it time for a Vibesman to come in and if they do twist on this, once the right timing for it? Yeah, I used to sort of roll my eyes a little bit when I was younger when people spoke about bringing Vibesman into a club because I just didn't quite get it, and maybe that's because for three, four years I covered the serene bliss of Brentford, and there was no turbulence in my professional life, how I long for those days. No, jokes aside, I completely get it now, just because there's such a huge disconnect between all sections of the club. As I mentioned, there were fans at last week's game who left at half time, who were shouting at board directors, at club staff, et cetera, and you just want someone who the fans already have a relationship with, and just for there to be a bit more of a bond, their next home game is against Nottingham Forest, just before the international break. It's very difficult to predict what that atmosphere is going to be like. Actually, that's a lie. It's easy to predict what that atmosphere is going to be like. It's going to be tense. The only chance of it being slightly optimistic is to get rid of Tudor. We can talk about the international break would maybe be a smarter time to do it, but the fact of the matter is spurs this season is spiraling out of control. They need to do something to regain any type of momentum. I've not seen anybody message me on Twitter, on Blue Sky, on wherever, say that Igor Tudor should stay. I've never seen anything quite like it. Everybody seems to be in conjunction that he was the wrong choice, and the right decision is to get rid of him. If spurs decide to cling on for a little bit longer, and then make this decision anyways, it only looks even worse on them. I don't know if he would be that surprised if he got the chop now, because nothing has worked. His tone and messaging since he took over has been pretty negative, and I don't mean to criticize him for that, although most people in this position would come in and even if things were bad behind the scenes, try and strike a positive note. He's been pretty brutal in what he's found, and I don't feel he's revealing the extent of it. In fact, he's saying he's not there's stuff that he doesn't want to discuss in public. Clearly, there are elements behind the scenes that even he... I think he literally said it is worse than he thought it would be when he arrived, and that makes me think that if he was to go now, it's almost be understandable from his perspective and put him out his misery is not working. Hang on, hang on, hang on, guys. An email is flashed up on my phone. Egor Tudor will preview Tottenham Hotspur's Premier League fixture against Liverpool on Friday the 13th of March at 1.30pm, so that suggests he is sticking around. Oh, wow, they're not twisting. Wow, okay. And just picking up on something Jay said earlier, I mentioned Venkateshum as Chief Executive Langa as Sporting Director, but what about the ownership, the Lewis's sort of full control when they booted Daniel Levy out? There were so many views on Daniel Levy, but I think Spurs were Jay's second or third in the Premier League when he departed. So it was early days, but the things were obviously looking a lot better than they are now. The consensus in football seems to be that again, whatever you thought of him, he was quite decisive in terms of he would have given Frank the boot earlier and maybe have appointed somebody with a connection to Tottenham in a way that this regime hasn't. And then you've got to look at who's making the decisions now. It seems to be the Lewis family, the Lewis family trust that I don't think it's so much inic because Joe Lewis is not allowed to be owning the club, which is why he put it in the trust, but you speak to people around the situation and they sort of think that he calls the shots, even if it's not in a formal way, then Vivian Lewis's daughter is there, not a director, no owners and directors test, maybe more of a figurehead and a presence than, I don't know, a decision maker, but then is it her son-in-law, Nick Buker, is said to be pulling strings and very heavily involved in this, not on the board, not a director, no owners and directors test. And Peter Charrington on behalf of the family trust does sit on the board and I think has owners and directors test completed. So you've really got to ask yourself, and we need to dig further and gain a greater understanding of who's in charge here, who is making the decisions, and is it Venkateshim and Langa, or is it the people above him, the Lewis family, and the more people I speak to suggest it's the latter rather than the former, and that is a massive thread in all of this as well. Well, yeah, it does look like Igor Tudor will still be in charge at Spurs for the Liverpool game, which is obviously their next match, and actually Liverpool themselves lost in Europe on Tuesday night, so we'll look ahead to that next. You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with Iawak and Malaria. Well, joining us now, we've got Simon, who's Simon, we were actually going to talk about Liverpool, but as you know, Tottenham hijacked that, but you know, on a slot 100th game in charge, interesting one, but it wasn't a happy landmark last night, though, for the Reds, was it? Last night was another troubling night for Liverpool. In isolation, it's a performance and results that you can say, well, you know what, it gives them a chance in the second leg, a very good chance because, you know, Galatasaray at home, are very difficult to beat whether that's in Europe or domestically, and I think the unbeaten home records stretch is pretty far. I think it's like one's a feat in more than 40 games, you know, it's a very difficult place to go to, but you know, Liverpool played like this a lot this season, dominated and had chances and just not being ruthless or quick enough when it matters and they gave Galatasaray a chance, and despite the chances, despite the domination of the ball, never really looked like they were going to score. So it was in keeping with a pattern of performance as this season for Liverpool, and of course, very similar to the performance earlier on in the season in Istanbul, it didn't feel like they really learned from that, that nice. So yeah, I mean, I don't think you can, you can really afford to look at this results in isolation. It's been, it's part of the wider pattern of behaviour of your leg from Liverpool this season. Well, no Liverpool manager has one more of their first hundred games in charge, obviously. Slot is now level with Kenny Douglas, David. With that in mind, though, are you surprised by how quickly the mood has changed by the fans towards him? Yeah, and you understand the fan bases at all clubs, and they're so emotionally attached, when the bar has been set, as it has a Liverpool last season, with the title win, and their historic expectations in domestic and European competition, you've got to respect that, but it is striking how bigger ground swell of the supporter base seems to be dissatisfied with Slot. There is still a huge amount to play for this season that could change that, whether it be domestically, not so much supremially, but of course, they're fighting to finish in the Champions League places, but in the Champions League in particular, they can turn that around against Galatasaray, and then they've got a couple of months with a huge amount to play for. Liverpool, from what we hear, are steadfastly behind Anna Slot, and he's under contracts until 2027, and they want him to be their coach. The hierarchy are determined that he is the man to get things right if they were looking at a recruitment process for coaches. He's said to be the exact profile that they would be looking at, and that there's not people on the market that they think better suit what they're looking for, that they're happy with him. Of course, the situation needs to improve, and they think he can be the man to do that, and he's happy there. So I'm expecting this to go on, and that the club gets to the summer in whatever shape, it could be with success, it could be with a lack of, and start to really try and mold and blend this relatively new squad, which has lacked Alexander Isaac, British record transfer for the majority of the season, Florian Viet, in his first season, who was the British record transfer before Isaac, and other new players in there, like the Kirkers and the Frimpongs of this world, Marmadashvili, and then big decisions on many contracts. I know people hated the phrase sort of transition, but especially when Liverpool had come from a position of such strength and success, but that's literally what it was when you have the volume of signings, and many fans and non-liver poor observers would say they should have done much better in blending it together immediately, and that's a valid opinion. But I suspect, and there could be further change, what's going to happen with Mohammed Salah, he'll be going into his final year, so we'll verge of Undyte, Joe Gomez, Ibrahima Konate's contract, which I think there's constructive conversation around that one. I do think there is still a will on both sides, player and club to try and find an agreement. It's not there yet, but the conversations from what we hear are a continuing and a pretty cordial. There'll be decisions, we've seen Graven Birch renew, what's going to happen with Alexis McAllister, even though it's quite early with his contract, there's potential contract for Sober's Lie, there's been some reports in some places, so lots of different things going on here. I expect a wide attacker to be signed like a winger, they were in for some enue previously, he didn't come to them, but I think that's what they're in the market for, Rio and Gamoa will develop again, and so loads of different things going on. I don't think taking out the head coach is on Liverpool's agenda at all, even though it might be what some fans want to see, but it is a really interesting time, and of course performance levels are Liverpool and other clubs need to improve, and that starts on Saturday against Spurs, and then, of course, the massive second leg of the Champions League tie next week. Yeah, Simon, David mentions the word transition coming into this season. Was that a word that many Liverpool fans would have thought would be associated with this team considering the kind of business that they did over the summer? Well, I go back to last summer and when Liverpool made the number of signings that they made and invested them onto money that he did, I did sense there was this assumption that, you know, that the good times would continue to roll. I can understand that because it was an unprecedented summer of spending at Liverpool, given the achievement that slots reach last season, I think everyone just assumed that it carry on. I mean, I tend not to associate that level of change with success, really. I mean, I've seen it at Liverpool before, not the same amount of money, but remember, you know, the summer of 1999, Gerrard Thule, he made sweeping changes, it took some time for things to settle down to spice, you know, that the quality of those players, not being quite as good as the ones arguably that are coming this summer. The same, maybe around, you know, people spoke about Kenny Dalgley's before, when he was managing, there was quite a lot of changes in his summer. It just didn't settle down. So I always thought that this season, you know, would be, it would be an achievement, really, if the challenge for the league title, based around the level of change and based around, you know, what has happened at the club over the summer with Diego Giotta, I just think those two factors didn't necessarily lend itself to the level of success the people were sort of dreaming of. So I haven't been that surprised by by Liverpool struggles this season, this has happened before, you know, on the Ergen Club as well, previously. So, you know, just because one season is successful, it doesn't get easy, the next season gets harder. And for me, the disappointment is, I think, I think previously, when they won the league, they probably didn't invest enough in response to that, and they didn't act quickly enough, albeit there was the context around COVID at the time, and the club was just being quite cautious around what it did. This time they've gone the other way, and it's sure to be met with the same results in terms of the Premier League anyway. So, yeah, I mean, I felt at the start of the season that the best of this team will be seen next season, really, when things have settled down, but, you know, people understandably get carries away, I mean, Liverpool were doing things that they haven't done ever in the club's history, you know, spending £120 million plus on a striker, another £70 million on another striker, you know, this sort of action creates excitement, but, you know, I think that a lot has gone against the manager of the season, you know, in terms of the injuries as well. I mean, it's not very, it's not a thing that people really want to talk about or listen to, people just assumed that the squads are so big now that they can absorb these challenges, but, you know, I say a lot similar in Liverpool's performances at set in times of season, as last season, with the difference being the results, small differences at the top end of the bottom end of the pitch at set in times. There were a few grumbles, even last season, you know, people saying, is this really the style of Liverpool, you know, is this really the sort of patience, patient way, the way what we identify with, I mean, that just finally, I would say that last night against Galatasaray, it was really symptomatic of Liverpool all the way through the season, in terms of the way they started the game, two big chances in the first couple of minutes, and it was almost like, another big chance will come along, you know, we just trust ourselves, there was no urgency, Galatasaray scored and then suddenly they were all over the pitch, you know, bit too casual at times Liverpool, and I think people get frustrated when they see that, it was just like, there's passes up a great opportunity to quiet in the crowd, put Liverpool in their leads, doesn't seem like anybody was really annoyed by the fact that he missed an open goal, it'll come again, you know, football doesn't work like that, you've got to be ruthless, and right the way through the season, Liverpool just haven't been ruthless enough. Okay, Jay, let's leave the last word to you, let's finish as we started with Spurs, obviously, they're off to Anfield, next with Tudor in charge. Do you have any hope of Spurs getting anything at Anfield? Not really, I actually think the only thing which works in their favour is that they are playing away from home, because the atmosphere is so bad at the Tottenham Hotspur stadium at the moment, and their form there's been so bad for a prolonged period of time stretching back to even last season when Angioposta Coglu is still in charge, expectations are going to be really low, so I think most people are expecting them to get rolled over, or maybe not rolled over, but to lose against Liverpool on Sunday, so maybe they can sort of use that us versus against them and talenty to scrape a point, but Van Niven is suspended, there'll be question marks over a mayor in Pellinia because they came off with what appeared to be concussion last night. Dave has already mentioned some of the other injuries, they've got a doggy, Bergwav, Benton, Corcutus, so they are going in to battle at Anfield with very, very slim picking, so if we're being brutally honest, I think they need to concentrate more on notting them for us the week after. Okay, cheers for that, Jay. All right, Jens, let's leave it there. Say, Jay, David, appreciate your time, and also thank you guys for joining us as well. What can't you see? You've been listening to the Athletic FC podcast. The producers with Guy Clark, Mike Stavru, and Jay Beale, with Editing by Paul Eiliff and Nick Thompson, the executive producer is AD Morehead, to listen to other great Athletic podcasts for free, including our dedicated club shows, search for the Athletic wherever you get your podcasts. You'll also find us on YouTube at the Athletic FC podcast, so make sure you subscribe. The Athletic FC podcast is an Athletic Media Company production.