The Anatomy of a Sliding Door: How Wayne Rooney’s 2010 Standoff Reshaped Manchester

Hello and welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Emma Payton. This is What If, where we discuss the biggest sliding doors moments in football and look at how different life might be on an alternative timeline. This week we're asking, What If, Wayne Rooney across the Manchester divide and joined Manchester City. Well, with me in the studio today is the Athletics Dan Killpatrick. Hello, welcome along. Hello. Hello. We've also got Jack Pit Brook back after last week's show. Also with us is Andy Mitten from the talk of the Devil's Polk Cars. Andy, I feel like this one's going to be perfect for you. Yeah, let's say looking forward to doing it, Emma. How much are you looking forward to this, Dan? This is a little, this is where we have fun basically. Yeah, I'm psyched. Yeah, I love a counterfactual. Something a little bit different. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's fun to kind of speculate and step out of the realms of reality. Let's do it. Well, so far in this series we have examined what a world without Pep Guardiola and Roman Abramovich might look like. So go and check those episodes out if you haven't already. But here are the three major alternative timeline moments. We're going to be focusing on this week around Manchester United legend Wayne Rooney. First, what would have happened to United if they lost him to their bitter rivals Manchester City in 2010? What impact would it have on cities own timeline? And what would it mean for the legacies of Rooney and Sir Alex Ferguson? So guys, let's start with a history lesson. Let's go back to the beginning because we know, of course, that Rooney has united all time top goal scorer with an incredible 253 goals in 559 appearances. But Jack, take us back to the very start and talk to us about that impact that he had when he was just a teenager and burst onto the scene. Yeah, I'm not sure if younger listeners and viewers will really quite understand just how exciting Rooney was when he first broke into the Everton first team at the age of 16. For people of my generation, that goal, he's got a really famous goal at Goodison Park against Arsenal when us. So this was October 2002. So Arsenal would have been the reigning Premier League champions at this point. And you can easily find it on YouTube. Rooney puts the ball in the top corner over David Seaman, who was doing the number one. It's a brilliant, brilliant goal. And I think when he scored that goal, and there's a famous bit of commentary, you remember the name Wayne Rudy, which has really kind of gone down to take a big place in the national consciousness. And he was just thrilling, wasn't he? And because he was so, he was so strong, he was so clever, he had, even though he was just a kid, he played with such a kind of adults, physicality and bravery and spirit. And he was just electric and really thrilling to watch. And I don't, I still don't even think now, you know, that was a long time ago, that was 24 years ago now. I don't really think English football has produced anyone quite like him since. Yeah, I agree, Jack. When he came through Everton, he, David Moise, who was manager, felt that he had to wait a little bit of time to introduce Wayne Rooney, but then he saw with his own eyes what we've seen in training every day. And this was someone who aged 16 was the best player at Everton. So he had to bring him through and I spoke to Moise about it several times since. And then Everton had a problem because when Rooney was so good, the suit has started to circle and Manchester United were a pre-eminent force at that time. And you speak to people at United and they'll say, I saw Rooney when he was 15, 14, 10, 11, 9, 8, 6 years old. I told them to sign him when he was two years old and we saw him walking across a field in Crocs. But he did finally sign in August 2004 for a huge fee. And Sir Alex Ferguson attempted to court this young prodigy, some slack, because he said, in three or four years time, we might see the complete article. Well, United fans had to wait minutes rather than years to see the evidence of this genius. Because if there were any doubts, he could adjust to a better team, Rooney dispelled them in a 37 minute debut hat trick against Fenerbahçe with the Champions of Turkey, even by his own standards that defied expectations. And when Rooney's Manchester United debut will go down as one of the most spectacular in the club's history. And it wasn't only that the 27 million pound sign is called a hat trick. It was the outstanding individual man in which he took his free goals. Many United fans were starting to think, okay, maybe I don't hate people as from Liverpool as much as I previously did. Rooney left the pitch, his shirt was torn, his hands were proudly clutching the match ball to a standing ovation. Even some Fenerbahçe fans really voiceless as the Turkish fans tend to be. They applauded him. Yeah, I watched that in preparation for this pod. And actually, in my mind, that feels like just as much of a moment for me as the goal against Arsenal. So I think I watched that one live. And you just felt like you were just witnessing the real birth of a huge star. And I remember there was an evertonian at school, which is quite weird because I went to school in Oxford. He was really sad the next day. And just kind of palpably miserable that they had to serve this guy. And he was obviously going to be such a big star. But as Andy says, that was an incredible hat trick. It was like left foot first time off the bar, killed his man and then buried it in the bottom corner was right foot. And then a brilliant free kick. And I was kind of wondering how many other free kicks really score for you, nice. I'm sure there were quite a few, but given that he played with Beckham for England for much of his England career and Ronaldo and others at United, I wonder if actually we didn't see as much of Wayne Rune's going set pieces that we might have done. What a way to to announce yourself. And he just became a regular for Manchester United straight away. And this was a United who were in a rebuilding phase. So Cristiano Ronaldo had been signed the previous year. So he had these young players coming through not fast enough for some. Rude Van Nistoroi famously said in 2005, 2006 that he didn't feel Manchester United would be capable of winning European cups, champions leagues with players like Rune and Ronaldo because they were too inexperienced. And that view led to an argument which led to Rude Van Nistoroi leaving Manchester United for Real Madrid. And Van Nistoroi great player that he was was absolutely wrong because Wayne Rune became one of the best players in the world and quite selfless, big hero to Manchester United fans as well. So you have this irony that is come out of Liverpool, but there was some glee that Manchester United had taken somebody from Liverpool, even if it was not from Liverpool FC, it was from Everton. But it's what he did on the pitch. That's what won over so many hearts. He was really exciting for England. I can remember watching in the Euros in Portugal in 2004 and just thinking wow, wow, you see that once a decade. And he was a really important player for Manchester United, a team who started to win league titles again 2006 and 2007. And then by 2008 Manchester United were English, European and World Champions. And Wayne Rune was the person who scored the goal which made Manchester United World Champions. And he was an absolute star player, maybe not quite as big a star as Cristiano Ronaldo, but we can come to that. But absolutely adored hugely influential player. Let's get to the crux of the story then. Wayne Rune hands in his transfer request in 2010. And Andy tell us about his relationship with Sir Alex Ferguson and I suppose what led to that point? So it had gone from Rune being a teenager saying to Fergie, where do you want me to play tomorrow? And he's like, I've not even made him announce my team yet. You might not be playing. And Rune is going, of course, I'm your best player. And Fergie laughing at the fact that a teenager was saying stuff to him. But it became strained. And it became strained for a number of reasons. United as I said, were World Champions in 2008. But the following year, they saw the Cristiano Ronaldo for a record transfer fee. Now that was reluctantly accepted. He wanted to go to Real Madrid. Fergie considered it an achievement that he managed to keep him for another year. But Manchester United also lost Carlos Tevez. Another forward who played up front with Wayne Rune. Now Ferguson was so dominant that he controlled the narrative. And Manchester United were told that Carlos Tevez had been greedy. The fans sang about him being greedy. But it was actually a fantastic player. Now eight or nine years after Carlos Tevez left Manchester United for Manchester City. In controversial circumstances, you remember the billboard saying, welcome to Manchester, there were still many United fans, many United players, sorry, talking about how much money Carlos Tevez was being paid by Manchester City. And I didn't know if you'd rune when it was a teenager, sort of 16, 17. But I also interviewed Lionel Messi several times. And I remember Lionel Messi saying to me, after an interview, which wasn't so interesting. But when the tape went off, he said to me, how much money are Manchester City paying Carlos Tevez? And I thought it was a really unusual thing to ask a journalist. He didn't really know as opposed to one of his international teammates. So it was clearly a talking point. And Fergie's version was, we're pre-emonym, we're the main team, you do it my way, there's no other way. But United lost two amazing players. And the existing players were not delighted about that. None more so than Wayne Rooney. And it was at a time where Fergie would say things like there's no value in the market. Well, that may have been true, but Strelik Ferguson, powerful that he was, did not control the entire football market and what clubs paid. And the replacements for those players were underwhelming. And Rooney, who had become the best player, he probably felt that Manchester United were getting weaker and not stronger. And that would have hurt Ferguson, who would have been like, you trust me, I've delivered continually, I've reinvented teams, I've rebuilt teams. But Rooney did not have that view and became frustrated. And he will have also been looking across the city and hearing the type of money that Manchester City were allegedly paying players. Well, according to Wayne Rooney himself, this was speaking on the United stand really recently. He said he was never really close to joining Manchester City in 2010. And he, what was your reading of that whole situation regarding United's biggest rivals in city? My reading at the time was that he made it clear he was prepared to join Manchester City, which was huge, huge news. Now he had his reasons. And Manchester United never said publicly that he wanted to join Manchester City. Because this was a time where Fergie was saying these are the noisy neighbours, they're just upstarts, they're not really a threat to us, you know, we'd never sell a top player to them. Carlos Tevers leaving was because we decided that not to give them a contract. And David Gill, who was a very important chairman for Manchester United, I think he was dispatched almost immediately to speak to Paul Stretford, who was Wayne Rooney's longtime agent. And Manchester United never said that Wayne Rooney wanted to join Manchester City. Now with the benefit of hindsight, it's in Wayne Rooney's interest to say he was never going to join Manchester City. But all the briefs from very reliable sources at the time, including from Manchester City, whether it was serious, it wasn't made up when Rooney was interested in going to Manchester City. Now if by saying he's interested, that's his way of protesting at Manchester United, perceived lack of ambition, that would have been something United fans agreed with as well. Because you'd lost these really important players and he wanted to see the team progress. So by him saying that he would be prepared to join City. And also because of his personal circumstances, he was very difficult for him to leave England because his wife, sister, wanted to be close to home to Manchester and to Liverpool. So there was talk at the time of Barcelona being interested, Real Madrid, Chelsea. Of course, he was Wayne Rooney, he was absolutely brilliant. But Manchester City suddenly coming into a lot of money would have suited Wayne Rooney from a logistical perspective. And then he ended up staying with Manchester United and then the version of events. No, no, there was never anything in that. That served them after the time to say things like that. Yeah, well that wasn't the only incident though, was it? Because of course, there was another flare up in 2013 when Sir Alex Ferguson went when public after his last ever home match at Old Trafford. What did he say back then? He said, I don't think Wayne Rooney was keen to play simply because he's asked for a transfer. So I actually had forgotten this one before I started prepping for the pod. And I think it was kind of a subplot to Fergie leaving United. And that was the story. And this was the second story, but still a big one. And I think had Fergie not been leaving and had this not been his penultimate game. It would have been a massive deal that Rooney had seemingly asked to leave again. I do think though with hindsight, one reading of this, and I'll be interested in Andy's view, is that Rooney seemingly asked to leave United twice in 2010 and 2013 and got massive new contracts from United after both on both occasions. So you could frame this as when Rooney was really good at getting what he wanted from Man United. And I think the 2013 contract was reported to be 300 grand a week. It was five and a half years. That's probably the contract that with hindsight, you would look back on and say, maybe that was a mistake because we know that Rooney declined to the end of his time at United. And that's maybe the one that United would regret. So I think you could frame this that Rooney and his representative were just really good at playing United and kind of getting what they wanted and ending up in a position of strength. In 2012, 2013, Alex Ferguson didn't tell anybody that it was leaving and his relationship with Wayne Rooney had declined. Now, Fergie told people at United that Rooney can be sold. And he was no longer Manchester United's best player. Robin Van Persi had taken his mantle. He arrived in 2012 when Manchester City had piped United to the league famously on that last day. And I spoke to somebody who played with both of them. And he said to me, Robin's rise was not good for Wayne Rooney. Robin became the main man, the leading striker. Wayne's relationship with the manager deteriorated more so after he didn't start in some key games. We weren't stupid. We could see that the chemistry between them was not the same. But there are times in a career where you don't see eye to eye with your manager. It's how you come through that to continue being a successful player at a club like United, what matters. And then Alex Ferguson left. So everybody thought Rooney was was going to go, but the new manager was David Moise, who knew Rooney, who'd worked with Rooney. And when Fergie left, it changed the dynamic. Rooney went from going to stay in, but it took time. I can vividly remember doing radio, BBC, August of 6, 2013. United were trying to sign Susque Fabregass and a new was happening from both ends of the deal. I could not find a single Manchester United fan who wanted Wayne Rooney to stay at the club that day, because I was requested to. And it was all, get rid of him, the scouts this and that. And yet he did stay. United wouldn't sell him to Chelsea. And a couple of weeks later, when Wayne Rooney warmed up, because it'd been dropped, for the first game of the season, the first post-Fergie game, David Moise in charge, it was at Swansea, now is in the away end, half the away end boot, and half the away end cheered. And Rooney looked as surprised as any that someone actually cheered him. He wasn't expecting it. And his people, his agents would definitely worried about a backlash. Wayne Rooney came on, he did well, he only half celebrated the goals, and then he became, by a distance, the best Manchester United player under David Moise. So yet he had that huge new contract, and that's when it was renegotiated, because he did decline in form a few years later, and you may be to your point, they did overpay, but Wayne Rooney for a couple of years remained Manchester United's best player, but it shows you how fans can change the tune in the space of a couple of weeks. He went from being get rid of him to actually brilliant, isn't it? And that was his name again. And just on that then, because we're going to let you go in a moment, and we'll move over to our alternative time. What was the fan sentiment when he left United then? And do you feel like, looking back now, did he get the affection that he deserved at the time during his career there? So he became a legend, he became the person who broke Sir Bobby Chawnton's goal scoring record for Manchester United. There was songs about him being the white Pele. He was there for an awful long time. He won the league, but then in 2013, but the United have not won the league, since, look at me, reminding myself of that delight. He did decline, so I can remember quite a lot of criticism of him around Euro 16. He wasn't the player. I remember interviewing him, and he just admitted it, he wasn't the player that he'd been. So he went from being this absolute force, and someone who was United's best player to not being that person, and he was still the best paid player. And I think when he left, there was, there was no protest to keep him. It was not the Wayne Rooney who would have gone in 2010 or 2012, 2013. He's someone who'd served his time quite magnificently. He'd been a club legend, but he was of an age, and he will be remembered really affectionately by Manchester United fans because of the great goals he scored, in the great teams that he played for. And also as a person in matured, I remember interviewing him really early on for the cover of 442 magazine, and he was not interested, and I've said this to him since. It was really difficult. And by the end of his time, it became really engaging and interesting, and he had opinions which were worth listening to. But as a Manchester United player, I recently did a list for the athletic, the greatest 25 Manchester United players, and I put Rooney in at number seven. And I probably got more criticism for that than any other choices, and the criticism was because people felt he should have been higher. I argued against that, but there you go. That shows the sentiment towards him very favourable. Yeah, shows the sentiment now for sure. Andy, we'll let you go because you've got to go and speak to Michael Carrick. So thank you. We appreciate it. Thank you very much. This is the Athletic FC podcast with Emma Payton. Okay, time now to cross over to our alternative timeline. This is where the fun starts. So first of all, then Jack, I mean, what does life look like at Manchester United without Wayne Rooney in 2010? I mean, how do they replace him in the squad first off? Because I think he finished that 0910 season with 26 Premier League goals. Also, since this whole thing and since retiring, he's talked about the impetus of this situation was because he'd seen the likes of Tevez leave, Ronaldo leave as well. And he was asking the hierarchy, well, who are you going to bring in? So imagine he goes as well. Where does this leave Manchester United? If we assume that Rooney would have left four cities in the January 2011 window, because obviously this whole saga happened in I think October 2010. So I think United, so let's say they sold them in January and United probably would have had to muddle through to the rest of the season with their remaining players. They would have had Burbotov and Hernandez up front. They would have, like, I'm not sure, would they have reached the 2011 Champions League final? So that's when they lost to Barcelona and Rooney scored, of course, because Rooney scored both against Shalka in the semi-final first leg, but also, probably more importantly, against Chelsea in the quarter-final first leg in April 2011. I don't know if they would have done that. Obviously, the Premier League title that a season united one very comfortably. There wasn't really a lot of competition. They'd be Chelsea by by nine points. Would they still have won the league? Probably. So I think in the short term, they would have been okay. The big question really is, what might United have had to do to react if they had sold Rooney? Clearly, they would have needed to go into the market and buy a big name player from somewhere else, someone who could really not just provide goals to assist, but also be a bit of a figurehead, be a bit of a frontman for the whole thing. I don't know exactly who that would have been. I suppose you could make a case for Sergio Aguero. I mean, we'll come back on, I suppose, to the question of whether Aguero would have gone from Atlético to Manchester City in the summer of 2011, had City bought him. You can maybe look at someone who did eventually end up at Manchester United, Edson Cavani, who was at that point just starting to make a big name for himself at Napoli. I suppose the really interesting one would be, and I don't know whether it would be if United had been forced into the transfer market in January 2011, who was the best player to be transferred in the January 2011 window into the Premier League from Europe, Luis Suarez of Ajax, who Liverpool signed that January. I just wonder, this is pure hypothetical, but if United had been desperate for a big name player, someone who could come and make an impact, come and be a bit of a leader on the pitch for them, whether they might have turned their attention to Suarez of Ajax in that January window. Well, so United without Rooney, but they've got Luis Suarez. Yeah, that would have been spicy. Luis Suarez was so good for that period of Liverpool. You could make a case that they wouldn't have lost a great deal. I mean, I'd written down similar players to Jack. I'd written down Falcow and Cavani. He both ended up at United years later, who were probably among the best strikers outside the Premier League in Europe at the time. And then I guess there's a question of, might they have gone for Van Persia a year earlier, that have muddled through to the end of the season? He hadn't had the 30 gold season in the Premier League yet. Obviously, that was to come the following year, but he did score 18 golds in the Premier League that season. He was really emerging as one of the top forwards in the league. Obviously, Fergie was in Amara, as we know. So I guess that would have been a possibility, but probably at the end of the season, not in that January window. So I think, as Jack says, they would have to have replaced him, but then interestingly, Burbotov and Hernandez outscored him in all competitions that season. So he wasn't United's main source of goals at the time. Jack, I just wonder as well, if he doesn't go sort of in 2010, to lose him in 2013, would that have been more palatable? Or then you look at it and say, well, they were losing Sir Alex Ferguson as well. And it was just such big change at the club. I think both things, basically. I think that it would have been huge changes. They'd lost because they lost David Gill as well in the summer of 2013. If they'd lost David Gill, Sir Alex and Rune all in the summer of 2013, that would have been huge. And it would have clearly made David Moise's job even harder, having to not just to replace Ferguson and all the kind of boardroom level change with Gill's departure, but also to do that without Rune. As Andy said, Rune did have a good 13, 14 is called 17 Premier League goals. And you know, they would have had to, they would have had to do do things differently, wouldn't they? They would have had to have spent more money in them in the summer of 2013 and then had somebody else to play up front probably with Van Persie from then on. That all said, as Dan said earlier, I think it's hard to make the, I think it's hard to make the case that giving Rune that big contract in 2013 was really good for United. Because I felt like the middle years of the 2010s were probably a bit too much dominated by the question of how do you fit in Rune? How do you get the best out of him? Do you have to move him into midfield? And if United had sold him in the summer of 2013, then after the short term pain of losing him, I think probably over the next three, four, five years they might have been in a better place, certainly if they had spent the money. And I don't think it would have been particularly if he'd gone to Chelsea in 2013 as opposed to Manchester City in 2010, I don't think it would have been as much of a blow to the kind of standing of the club and the kind of, I don't think it would have dented the pride in the same way that it did in 2010. I feel like Ferguson probably knew that as well. I think the fact that he made those very well publicised comments around his last game about really wanting to leave, to me that almost felt like Ferguson would, that Rune would have left with Ferguson's blasting in 2013 and clearly in 2010 that was not the case. Would say 2010, he does go to City then. What does that do to Sir Alex Ferguson's legacy? Well, I mean, I don't think it's going to significantly impact Ferguson's legacy. Alex Ferguson has already cemented his legacy even by 2010. So I don't think it's going to significantly damage that. Two thoughts, really. One is that I think Ferguson's ability to control the narrative that Andy touched on earlier was probably enhanced by the way he dealt with Rune asking to leave on October 2010 because he did a very memorable press conference on the eve of quite a low key Champions League game against Berezpor where he kind of came out and revealed that Rune had handed in a transfer request and wanted to leave the club and this was known before there had been a variety of reports about Rune's desire to leave that already were mentioning City. But Fergie managed to, if anyone was thinking, oh, well, you know, this guy's right, he's got a right to play where he wants and look United of the Selling Towers and Ronaldo, they're buying Chris Mauling, etc. They're lacking ambition. Fergie completely flipped that on his head and sort of played the betrayed hurt parent card and actually I encourage anyone to look back at the transcript of that press conference because it's extraordinary. He even talks about the club kind of helping Rune through these various situations in his personal life and he even says he has given Rune financial advice personally and is very hard to imagine a manager now doing a press conference and saying that they've given one of their players financial advice which I think speaks to the time but also just who Fergie was and the power he had the position he was in. So I think he enhanced his reputation for kind of narrative control then but equally had Rune left and United have gone on to win the title which as Jack says they might well have done they might well have muddled through and still had enough and won the title in his last season as well let's say then I think it would have just embellished Fergie's legacy he would have said you know this guy betrayed me he went to our great rivals he did the dirty on us but I was still able to beat him to the title in two of the final three seasons I was at the club so I think it had that happened and it would have only kind of embellished that legacy and kind of furthered that feeling that one of Fergie's great strength was rebuilding teams and recovering from the loss of players which I think it was. I also think Ferguson was really good at that. He was really good at making it look like United never lost players who they didn't want to or when they did lose players it was always on their terms. So obviously with when Chris John Ronaldo went around Madrid in 2009 for you know I think Ferguson and United were able to paint this as kind of a success right like we got an extra year out of him a year in which we we a year in which we won the Premier League again we got back to the Champions League final we got a world record V from Real Madrid for him which was always one of Ferguson's conditions for Ronaldo's departure and so while they were sad to lose him obviously because he was so good it was sort of spinnable I think to an extent as a success when Tevers went to Manchester City it was maybe slightly harder to do that but they were able as Andy referred to earlier to kind of make it look as they're very unique circumstances around Tevers and and his own situation whereas I think that if Rooney had left a city in 2010 that would have been really hard that would have been really hard for United to present as any kind of success I think it would I think it actually would have hurt them far more in the sense of the damage it would do to the sort of a steam of Manchester United and just to the the kind of ego and pride to lose a player of that caliber to their local rivals local rivals who they had made a big folks and made a big thing about being the kind of noisy neighbors and so on and so I think that for all of those reasons it was almost more from that like political perspective it was more important for United to keep Rooney in 2010 than even from a football perspective yeah with all that in mind I just think the United fans would have reacted then as well pretty badly I think there was already I think I'm writing saying there were protests from Manchester United fans outside of Rooney's house at the like roughly around the time this was happening effectively to you know to kind of put some pressure on him not to go to not to go to Manchester City and obviously the moves didn't happen in the end but I'm sure that if the move had happened then yeah it would have been really really really badly received by huge numbers of Manchester United fans and it would have you know it would just imagine what it would be like the first Manchester Derby in which Rooney was lining up in blue and the booing and the hatred and the placards and the signs and all the rest of it it would have been yeah I don't really think there I can't really think of any precedence for it I mean I suppose you could say Saul Campbell is not quite the same but that's that's one I think it would have been that level of of hatred directed towards him it hypothetically had this happened so that that's the United side of things let's look at the Manchester City perspective then because I mean imagine it's Wayne Rooney who's helping them to their first everly title how would that go down yeah I mean as Jack says that would have that would have been huge and extremely contentious in that part of the world I mean look I kind of want to start with like a bigger thought in city which city fans won't like so sorry but I kind of feel like one of the reasons that city like inspired so much apathy in neutral fans and one of the reasons that a lot of people view them as kind of a vehicle just for stopping including myself by the way a vehicle just for stopping teams they actually just like from winning stuff they're my case Arsenal you know yeah go win the league city because I don't care about you I do care about Arsenal it is because it feels like the kind of consequences don't really apply to them in the same way they apply to other clubs right because they're state owned and they've got such great resources and so I think that also applies to the transfer market you know they can they can sign players and they can make mistakes and they can kind of correct those mistakes you know Claudio Bravo springs some mind you know all of a sudden this keeper is perfect for a way we want to play but oh it doesn't work so we'll just sign another really expensive keeper the following summer and I think that's repeated across a lot of cities business they don't seem to suffer consequences they don't have to make transfers work in the same way that other clubs do so I kind of feel like the actually the stakes for city if had they signed Rooney would be lower than they would be for United and for Rooney himself like city could sign him and he could be a fabulous success and that would be brilliant but then city were kind of destined for success anyway because I was gonna say do they sign him instead of a Guero or maybe not if we're going off your well I just I thought my sort of feeling is that like that they would have they would have got there eventually no matter who they signed and it might have taken a year longer it might not have happened in quite the same way but it would have still happened because of the nature of Mancetti so I think the stakes for United would have been really high to Jack's point like it would have felt like a precursor for this great decline if United it would have felt like it had come earlier and it would have been particularly painful because it's happening you know to with him going to their newly rich neighbours and I think it would have been a huge thing for Rooney's legacy in the way he's viewed today but I actually I almost feel like for city it would have been sort of just another transfer that could could have been spectacular and well maybe not maybe not and actually it doesn't really matter either way yeah I don't know um Jack I wonder what it would have been like having Rooney work under Pep Guardiola obviously that would have been the very back end of Wayne Rooney's career and yeah I mean it's interesting I mean let's say they signed them in 2010 I think there's no reason to assume that Guardiola wouldn't have taken the job in uh to start to replace Pellegrini in 2016 I don't think I think Dan is probably broadly right I don't think things would have would have changed the path that much I certainly don't I guess the really interesting question is would they still assigned a Guero because you know would you need a Guero six months after signing if you signed Rooney in January 2011 do you need a Guero in the summer of 2011 I'm not sure would Rooney have done as well for a Guero city I doubt it I mean I don't think you would have saw 260 goals for city like a Guero did over the course of 10 years um simply based on Rooney's output for Manchester United you know for Manchester United Everton and elsewhere in the 2010s so I think in the main it probably like city problem you would not have been as good but let's say hypothetically Rooney uh really was still that at city in 2016 and Pep shows up um I don't know I mean I I wouldn't like Pep was pretty pretty ruthless with with great players who he inherited who he thought would maybe pass their best a bit you know Sam and Astrid didn't really play a tall for him I think Yaya Torrey played for a bit um but Pep was very very focused on bringing in the next generation of players who he who he wanted to build around and Rooney was clearly you know as Andy said like not not really himself by 2016 I think it was never clear what his best position was I think that was as true for Man United as it was for England and then I don't think there's any reason to suggest that I'm working under Pep in 2016 things were doing very different now of course if you know in a in a timeline in which Rooney played for Pep earlier in his career that I think maybe they could they could have been brilliant together but by 2016 I think he'd probably been declining for too long you're listening to the athletic FC podcast with Emma Payton just another couple of hypotheticals before we move on to the really fun stuff and because Jack I wonder what would have happened if in 2013 Man United accepted Chelsea's bid for Wayne Rooney and we see a Rooney Marino link up I think Marino I think Marino and Rooney would have got on really well at that point I just think the way that Marino managed he was so this has kind of always been true but was particularly true then he just wants kind of experienced he wants experienced big name players who don't need a huge amount of instruction and who can make decisions on the pitch for themselves so I think that if he'd had if he'd had Rooney at Chelsea in 2013 he would have been like I have no doubt that he would have been really good like he would have felt Marino's trust Marino would have been really good at motivating him they probably would have won the title like Chelsea were really really close to winning the Premier League title in 1314 I think people kind of forget a bit a bit that a bit because they were so people were so focused on Liverpool and Brendan Rodgers and Stephen Gerald and so on but I think he would have been great I think that also I think that Chelsea probably before they signed Diego Costa the following summer they really needed a number nine that season like they had I mean they had kind of an old Eto they had Sherlock they had Denver bar they had a sort of not very effective Fernando Torres at that point so if you put Rooney into that Chelsea 2013 14 team you know maybe they go on to have more success maybe they win the Premier League maybe they win the Champions League on the other hand you could say well maybe they don't they don't get Diego Costa who was integral to them winning the Premier League the following year and then and then again with Antonio Conte in 1617 so you don't quite I mean I'd be so even if they hadn't got Diego Costa the following year I still think really would have made a really big short term impact at Chelsea one last hypothetical what if in 2010 he joined Barcelona or around Madrid yeah I mean obviously be pretty spicy if you joined the I mean that was that was perhaps Barcelona right yeah yeah I mean that was it just doesn't feel right like Rooney joining that Barcelona team just kind of feels perfect and it's sort of hard to imagine where he would where he would slot in there it's also kind of that that was in here as well which feels a bit strange now because obviously belling him and so many others have sort of changed the way we look at European football I think but like English players just didn't really go abroad often it was such a rarity they were a handful of them so I think it would have been kind of spectacular from that point of view in that it would have felt so unusual and so interesting but that Barcelona team just felt such a again just such a like well-organ machine that I don't know it just feels like you're disrupting the harmony somehow by trying to crowbrave really right we've talked about the alternative timelines but I feel like Rooney's character is actually a huge part of this story you said a minute ago about main character sort of energy what are some of your favorite Rooney quotes I don't know if you you've got any I mean looking through his Twitter like 15 years ago is brilliant by the way but Jack anything stand out to you yeah I love Wayne Rooney's Twitter because it's a throwback to when footballers wrote their own tweets and they actually did nowadays so you know footballers on Twitter and not yeah and on other social media platforms you know what you're gonna get it's you know fans are fantastic didn't we play well thanks to everyone who traveled or it's you know I'm delighted to be a brand ambassador with this brand on that brand or whatever it's not you know it's clearly not the footballer him or herself like sat there tapping away on the phone but you know this is but when you look at Wayne Rooney's old tweets so much of his I think so much of his actual personality comes through and so much of like the reasons that the people that the public loved Rooney because he's kind of he's honest he's a bit unfiltered he loves life and so when when he tweets things like me and Joe Hart having a few beers oh I love that it makes me jealous it makes me think I wish I could be having how at that moment in June 2011 having a beer with Wayne Rooney and Joe Hart or another another classic also from June 2011 just chilling on boat listening to stereophonics it is blasting water band Kelly's a true legend beer bottle chilling so yeah I think I've got a better one from June 2011 so yeah I'm a huge fan of Rooney's Twitter so also June 2011 having a great night in Barbados in Lexus Piano Bar with Colleen Rue and friends been on the mic for about seven songs and felt like a rock star so he was obviously really he was obviously having a great summer 2011 after getting the the the big new contract from United he was out celebrating yeah I totally good Jack it also feels like a kind of reflection of like early Twister as well when we we weren't really quite sure how to use it and people were kind of using it to directly message their friends in a high Rio John picking up in the morning exactly yeah I mean my favorite of Rooney's tweets from again from June 2011 and a big summer film just to confirm to all my followers I've had a hair transplant I was going bald at 25 why not I'm delighted with the result yeah just only it really honest really Frank and like I think we all suspect that they're quite a few footballers and indeed football managers I mean Jack mentioned one of them in in Antonio Conte who have probably had a hair transplant but I don't think any anyone else has kind of owned up yes in quite the same way as Rooney so yeah totally good Jack is his personality kind of shines through here right time now for some trivia before we wrap things up this is a game called who am I Jack knows how it goes he was extremely competitive last week so be really down it's quite simply I'm going to state a series of facts about a player and you have just got to guess who that player is okay yeah are the risk are the risk of going kind of Finchy in the office are we allowed unlimited guesses yeah yeah yeah I'm going to give you a number of clues as well so obviously whoever needs the less the fewer clues wins but just chime in okay so this player is a teammate former teammate of Wayne Rooney so the first clue I played a long side Rooney 153 times any early guesses clue one no no so Jack is inflow stay once again raise you can't be keep the game alive I'm alive we can't we can't do the latest hands I want to see I want to see your hands at all times hands up okay um just I can't see you hurt how do I know you're not cheating and they continue my hands yeah yeah these sounds free um what any do you want to just stab in the dark oh um 153 times or do you want to set clue number two Johnny say well done for just throwing that out there but no okay clue number two this is where it gets interesting I am an FA Cup winner with two different clubs oh Jack's going to win I know he is I'm so bad of these things um okay I've got something that's going to make it easy no I am a defender oh reaffirming and nope but you're like this one I finished my playing career at Manchester United in 2025 uh Johnny Evans I kept thinking about Wes Brown yeah that was that was a great way that was a good one I thought with the the two different clubs FA cups you might have got it but Wes Brown's 46 it would have been quite spectacular he was did you think you still I don't know he was just in my head it was just it was just a loop of Wes Brown's okay right um that was good and well done to Jack who you know you you do love these trivia questions you do right finally then guys what what's our verdict which which timeline do you personally prefer like we say it's all hypothetical it's all fun do we what do we feel like we've got the best scenario out of we've got Rooney stay united or would we have liked to see him somewhere else whether that's city whether that's Chelsea whether that's over in Barcelona under pip yeah so for me like I'm happy with with how reality played out I'm happy with him staying united um in that press comments I mentioned where a kind of heartfelt buggy said I betrayed he was by Rooney he did say something which I thought was quite telling him he's he mentioned um the romance of united um which I think was was was a bit of a dig a city um you know who were obviously um run by a state and don't have the same history as united and I do think you know I united were very hateable back then for for kind of obvious reasons they weren't everything so you know for younger listeners it was when Rooney went from Everton to united like they were there were probably a couple of other clubs that could have signed him then but like united were clearly the the the sort of biggest fish in in the pond um whereas I think now you know where a prodigy to come through Everton who are sort of a similar stature there would probably be a lot more teams um vying for signature so united kind of felt like this this big behemoth who you love to hate but I think I just think it would have been yeah I just think it would have been a shame if like he'd gone to either Chelsea who were um kind of oligarch run or city who was state run um and I think to Fergie's point there was kind of more romance and in staying united becoming their top score a beating Bobby Charlton's record um and kind of being this this sort of beloved figure in one half of Manchester um rather than a really divisive figure um in in both half of Manchester um I mean Jack mentioned Soul Campbell earlier and like I may correct me if I'm wrong here because I am a spurs fan but like I feel like Campbell is kind of as much remembered just for making that move as for the stuffy one is that fair Jack and I think Rooney even if he gone to city and sort of one stuff that that would have still been the thing narrative that would be the thing from his career I think the people he was the guy who made that move um and I kind of prefer him being the guy who's united's record scorer and you know a kind of legend there love that Jack are we sticking with the romance what are we going for uh I am sticking with reality as it happened on the basis that if Rooney had joined in city in January 2011 I don't I can't be certain that they would have signed a Guarrow and therefore we might not have got the Guarrow moment which is one of the best moments of my entire life so on that basis I'm going to stick with reality yeah I mean we were yeah we potentially wouldn't have got to the most iconic Premier League moments the overhead kick against city yes um and the Guarrow moment um so yeah while I think city's trajectory wouldn't have changed a great deal and probably united as well because Fergie sort of left them in such a you know if Fergie had too much power didn't he if that was the story you would have been denied these two sort of moments that everyone loves looking back on I'll stick with reality then I'll stick with reality for this week guys thank you so much for your company big thanks to Andy for joining us earlier as well we're back with another what if next week we'll see you then