Tactical Fluidity, Algorithmic Filtering, and the Structural Economics of Modern Football

Hello and welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Kate Mason. It is a tactical preview time. We're going to get you set for the weekend with a deep dive into data and statistics. This weekend it is a big one at the Emirates Arsenal. Take on Chelsea. Joining me in the studio is former England goalkeeper Rob Green. Hello Rob. Good morning. And tactics writer for the Athletic Liam Tharn. Hello. I can't help but notice you guys have been away for the last two weeks. And it just occurred to me that you may have been on holiday both together without me. Oh yes, that's that's what we do. Very quickly made a friendship and didn't invite you straight away. Yeah, no, I actually went away and had a bit of a busman's holiday. My sister suggested we go and watch sporting at Lisbon and it was fantastic. You've got to check out their intro, their song, their walk on song. My way it is wonderful and just something sort of up there with one of the best walk on songs you've got. Oh amazing. I would love to get on watch sporting. Yeah, I was not watching sporting. I was in Zurich. Yeah, I was at some athletics watching a few actual hurdle world record which were great fun and so a good trip around. All right. Well, my my football watching experience was at West Ham so similarly good singing. Yes, but perhaps a little less matched for the walk on song for the for the intro. Yeah, too right. Okay, then well, we're going to get started with today's pod but Liam, we need to give you some credit because you were making predictions right out of the blocks. In our first show, it took me out more same side wing as this season. Cody Gatpo playing off the right set up Alexander Esach for Liverpool's first goal against Forest. I guess the way you tend to watch football is by ticking off the things that you've said that have come to pass. Is that how you know? No, but I might start if this is a trend. I think it makes a lot of sense when you look at the players Liverpool have got. And kneesack especially was one of the best players this working with Jacob Murphy and Newcastle playing those those low crosses with the right foot you know from the right hand side. So I think and don't hear it as way smarter than I am and would have figured that out kind of long long before me. So I think that's a really smart tactic. Yeah. Cool. And on the 442 front, not so much in the Premier League yet. Yeah, it's coming. It's coming Liam's prophetic but I've just got that one step further ahead and also it's going to be coming until it does and then I can say I was right. Okay. And you bet across Europe you've been picking some out. Yeah. I think there's a couple of teams in Spain that do it in Germany that do it and so it's slowly working its way here. All right. Glad to hear it. We're going to be speaking about popular formations as well today because lots of teams are using the 343 in the Premier League including Javier Lonzo's Chelsea two wins from two looking good in attack. Well, also in defence not so much and I guess is an influence on on this formation. So I'm fascinated to understand Liam how he's setting his team up and if it works having so little possession, I mean, I guess it is so far. Yeah, it's a different system because it's one that I think historically it's more of an underdog, you know, a shape used by an underdog team that you want an extra centre back you're prepared to give up a body further forward to rely on wingbacks that it's a harder shape to kind of dominate again with because you've got more players at the back end of the pitch rather than the top end, but it's a system that obviously Lonzo used that they've accused him when he won the league there with really good effects, where you could kind of wire players and wingbacks pushing on kind of good midfielders there as well. But this is all it's weird because it's all about the top end of the team, right? This is the way you can get Morgan Rogers and Col Parma into the same team without sacrificing having to push one out wide. So that I think is the real upside of this. What's it like from a goalkeeping perspective playing behind a back three? Uh, confusing. Yeah, it's you look, uh, um, when you, when him talks about when you're the underdog and you're playing as a back three and they're defending the goal, it's brilliant because you've got three sets of hearts and you just stand there and say go ahead it. My favourite phrase was head it, Donnie, to rich or done. And but then we played in a three with Richard Donne and Rio Ferdinand Steven Kolker three international centerbacks and in transition, we really struggled with when a player was going to go, which center half was going to step out or the space that they'd leave in behind. Was that going to be covered or were you all going to step up? So there's, there's a synchronicity in there that when you get it wrong, if one player steps back, that leaves the space in front, but also leaves the hole behind that he's playing on, on side in behind the other center halves. So in there, you've got the forward and back movement and also the left and right when you're stepping into each other's zones, that sort of thing. So it takes brave center halves to do it to be really aggressive with it. And I think that's the key. You've got to be aggressive. Okay. So that's an interesting point because it, we've seen also Oliver Glasner at Forest, PSAsia, Palace also using it and you referenced it earlier as well. It seems maybe more like a kind of underdog formation. Yeah. I mean, there's some coaches that just really love it, right? We had this whole saga with Ruben Ammer and Manchester United and kind of his tenure defined by not doing very well and never moving away from the system. There's some coaches that are just guys as one and say, this is the way that I'm going to play. And I think it's a very specific style. It's interesting that you get a lot of this and you don't get money 352s that people say, we're happy with two number 10s and we like them. It filled kind of overload. We don't want to strike as up top because then that kind of, I think we just have to be a lot more direct to kind of a real specific way that you can kind of play. And the thing that is probably different now with Chelsea's, how kind of fluid they are. And we've got kind of a grab to show this as well for people watching. The way they will build up is always kind of that three two shape, the three center backs or a back three and kind of two midfielders in front of them. But that can be different players in those different positions. So we saw in the film game that there was times James is dropping out from midfield to basically being that third center back at chimpong. The actual center back was pushing on on the right hand side. Col Parmer would drop in then at times as well to replace for his James there. So it means you can kind of get the players and the roles that you think they're most appropriate for regardless of what the shape might look like kind of on paper. And I mean, one of the goals, Chelsea score there is some require being a center back basically on the overlap, getting into a cutback position. So they're an interesting team because well, they are low possession. They're still quite stylish when they're on the ball. They will kind of have long pass and sequences at times. And the concern for them currently, as we're saying, is the other end. And this is the problem because you say it's a back five team. You should be really quite good defensively, right? You should be really strong. Normally you play that system to be a bit more robust, a bit more watertight. And that they've gone one the up in both their games quite early on. So it's a true balance. Well, yeah, which is you think should be easy to see out, but also case where you go, you'll probably lean into the defensive style more. If they're, that's kind of the season goes on, they're playing more games. If it's nearly a kind of half time, an hour in, or it's more of a level game, I don't think we're going to see them quite as extreme and kind of like low possession. It's also a game safe factor. But they've really struggled defending balls in behind. Full of them exploited it really, really well. And kind of those direct balls into the channel, getting wingers running in behind, tell Bryce and Paul to go back to basically make a game of a stamp of bridge, getting the striker in behind. They've got very athletic center backs, I think, but it's playing that really aggressive highlight. Going mad for man like Rob says when those three center backs are all locking on, it's hard to do. Yeah, you've got to get that man to man across the pitch. If you haven't got it right across the board and a hole in them, all 10 men pressing in unison, then all of a sudden you get exposed because that time on the ball, that space for the opponents to hit that pass is there. And that can be a pass of five yards. It can be a pass of 10 yards or 50 yards and all of a sudden, you're backtracking, you're in trouble. So the game is Sunday afternoon, Chelsea traveling to Arsenal. A bit more of a challenge taking on Arsenal, who've been so tight defensively, already this season. How are they going to hurt them? Well, it's in transition. I think that they've got one you saw against Brighton, the the passes that they took to score. The first goal was a corner, so that's a bit different, but the maximum for the next three was three passes. They get the ball, get it on the pitch, two of them with the throwings, and then within two passes, you're having a shot. It sounds so simple, but it's got to be the movement's got to be on point. The timing of the movement's got to be key. And the layoff from Shao Pedro or Morgan Rodgers, more so sometimes more often than not, it's going to be Shao Pedro is got to be so succinct with the movement. They've just got to get the movement as the balls going in. And then the layoff's going to be coming when they've already got basically. And that's the key to it. And that's what what they got really well against Brighton. They did that to perfection and created a lot of chances from that. Harder against Arsenal because they've got bigger, better, stronger athletes to stop that. So it's going to be utilizing those few moments that they get into the game. And also, they're doing some cool stuff already, including particularly with their full backs, who are just pushing up, getting assists. Talk us through this. Yeah. I mean, we've seen us to be quite quirky with their full backs for quite a while under our tetra, kind of going through similar kind of evolutions to kind of city and Guadiotta where there's in Chenko profile of many years ago, playing that basically an extreme fielder that would come inside, then going to kind of bigger guys and centerbacks out wide and being really physical. And now kind of somehow finding the best of both worlds, I think, where kind of if you're already is the physical size of a centerback looks really capable, but really, really technically secure, really high level can play with his back to goal. We've got a really good touch map as well that we can show to kind of illustrate just kind of how central his touches were and the role he played in the lead up to the goal, where he doesn't actually touch the ball in that sequence until he's setting up sack of the score. And it's a move we saw from Arsenal, I think, a few years ago, when they were kind of chasing city and had some really good kind of cutback moves, Oda Garble to get a lot of goals. And it's a real important method of creation, especially for a team that haven't kind of got that out and out striker that's always going to get them kind of the kind of Harlan goal return. It's okay, this is where you can get your wingers in the box, your midfielders that you can really chip in with goals outweigh. How hard is it for teams to pick up roaming fullbacks? Yeah, it's an added dimension because first and foremost, it's difficult aid because they can create an overload wherever they want. They can drift in and go, well, I'm going to go stand next to the center forward or I'm going to go wide and all of a sudden when you're when you're playing in the opposition, you're, I'm, as a goalkeeper, trying to communicate to someone, but then you've got to find the balance of, do you go man to man? Do you go and follow Califuri? I think Villa struggled with that when at times you're saying, well, my cash and again, have got to both hold their positions and you're desperately keen for your player to go out to solace or go out to the white man there's a or whatever it is, but you've got to find that balance of when you hold your shape and when you go. So it's a really tough proposition as an opposition and also the beauty of it is that it allows Arsenal the solidity that they can sit in with their best players, their three midfielders on the ball in the middle of midfield and they don't have to risk it because no one really tends to break out wide. That's what Chelsea can because they can do it, but you're looking, you're going, well, I sent a four is going to do the breaking, our made fielder is going to do the breaking, but it's very rarely do you have someone say, well, we're just going to risk your player and leave him on the touch line out wide. So you have that balance defensively, but then how do you get out of it is an even harder one and that's where the beauty of where Califuri and Ben White come in. How do they decide the opposing team, whether they're going to go man to man or? Well, from the outset, yeah, I think we looked at Villa and you saw them sitting in a mid block in a 442 and just, I managed to get the 442 in this. I'm like, yes, yes, but they sit in the mid block and you say, well, it's actually so hard to be able to do that. We'll leave Zollis. We'll leave him outside out there and just say, well, that's the risk we're going to have to take. So you do that from the outset. I think from there, if you can go man to man at times, if you can be brave to say, we're going to tuck in and just time it for that pass into the frontman or into an inverted fallback at number 10 or something like that's the moment then you can snap and go man to man, but it's that timing is so difficult because you get it wrong. You're dead. Talk us through how their goal played out against Villa. Yeah, it was interesting. In the first half, the relationship that Califuri has with Zollis that Zollis stays wide and Califuri keeps on coming inside and had joy with it. Immediately, when Ezra comes on, he wants to tuck in off the left hand side and Califuri is a bit stuck out on a limb, sort of on his own out on the left wing and it's the first time he actually gets inside since Ezra comes on is when Ezra is forced out wide because he's on the ball and that creates the space inside. It creates our overload and his movement inside creates the space for Ezra out wide outside of Matti Cash and then his movement is in behind Califuri. He's his instinctive run that he has is just to say, I'm going to go in that space and and from there also you look at that come rise, you look at Louis Kelly, you look at mascara and Gabrielle, the perfect base. He can go. He can just go wherever he wants. So it's a really good intricate bit of play and this is why it will be a really great match up against Chelsea because Rob's talking about their like time at rest defense, so kind of how you struct your defenders behind the ball and that's done to prevent counter attacks that is to have those players in position. So I think Chelsea worked really well at basically destroying against Brighton was they'd get the ball out, they'd pop it into the front man, get it out wide, get winged back, draw a hat so out and start to move that way. So there's two teams that have got real opposing strengths, Chelsea, phenomenal on the counter attack. I also already don't concede counter attack goals. They're one of the best teams in the league that's stopping that partly because of the structure and also Rob's mentioned partly because of the physical capabilities of their center back too. Can go man to man have got the recovery pace to get back and defend. So that part I think will be a really fun aspect of the game. And what we've been talking about Liam is something you've written about the concept of the bonus back. Did you come up with this time? I didn't. No, this was a phrase when I spent some time at PSVR and Hovernt Academy a couple of years ago, had a real interesting kind of behind the scenes bit of time there. And it's term used by one of their coaches, specifically they were working one of their defenders. So they wanted to encourage them to get into the box more in effect on the if you look at the actual goal sequence for Arsenal against the other Ben White's there at the back post, Sakka, the wingers come inside to be the most central man the player that ends up scoring. So it's about encouraging those those wire players to get into those scoring positions. So this was the idea the bonus back of the extra player because who's most likely to switch off defensively, probably the opposition winger. And it means they can kind of be the player that they get to them. I wrote about it during the World Cup because we just saw a lot of it. We had kind of Daniel Munoz was doing it really, really well for Colombia, Ivan Paracicin in the game against England for Croatia a bit more as a wingback. So we had quite a few that were making those runs and they just do tend to go on track. I think wingers out of anyone have got the most kind of tendency to switch off. But I think Arsenal looked really kind of a bit like PSG that we've seen in recent years in that village game with both those full bats coming inside, coming narrow, you know, joining in the attacks, creating that front five and attack with the wingers and the striker. So I think it's one of the most important positions on the pitch now. This is good gear. I'm enjoying this. I want to ask you about Bruno Gimenez. Well, came on as a sub. What's he bringing to the team? He brings an element that you can add another dimension to the midfield. Another dynamic in there is ability to move with the ball. You know, Declan Rice can drive from deep. Bruno Gimenez can drive into tighter areas, but we'll play with his head up and play within ability to play a pass that is further forward. You think that Declan Rice gets sort of really attributed to. So from there, when the game opens up, it doesn't surprise me. We might see it more and more with as well as against us. I feel like that he does come on. You say the game's opening up. The opposition are tired. There is that little bit of space to drive into. I heard a guy's not going to play the 90. So let's let's use it now. You know, and then you can carry on with Declan Rice because he's a giro sell bunny and just keeps on going and going and the skeletons keep ticking along. So he's a man. He is also obviously a made replacement sitting in there, but that other dimension Bruno Gimenez brings to the team. All right. And of course, I sort of didn't in the end get that deal for you know, otherwise or for me, you know, if that was a real deal over the line, can they retain the league Liam without a elite attacker? Is that some spurs? Quote marks. I think absolutely on the basis of two things. The first is that I think the quality of the tracing pack in the league isn't probably as good as it was last year. A lot of teams in I think like transition phases or kind of new new coaches. So there will probably be a team that do kind of contest them and are a bit of a surprise package that do really, really well. But I think it's hard to know who that is at this stage. So they might not need as many points to win the league. I mean, they didn't need as many points last season for better when they were chasing City or when sitting Liverpool going a few years back kind of were, you know, putting up some ridiculous numbers and not winning the title. But I think you look back to even the high scoring Arsenal team that got 91 goals a few years ago didn't have kind of a 20 plus goal of season striker. They had their wing is tripping them with goals. Sackle was a really big goal throughout Oda Guard was scoring. I had to look the last 20 goal of season play for Arsenal without Bamiang in 2019-20 and they came eight that year. So I don't think that is the kind of difference maker for them. They are different to some of the other like champions that we've seen in recent years and they need to kind of lean into their strengths on that. I think don't go too far the other way just because City of Got Harlan scored a lot of goals. You don't have to replicate that. They are defensively outstanding. They're physically really dominant. They're set pieces are better than everyone else and like what's been saying, they control games really well. They make goals and also stop themselves conceding them by how they kind of structure their attack. So I think they need to be their own version of kind of what they are and not kind of try and change just because other teams and the league have got different strengths. Time for a game. You're so glad you came back for this aren't you guys. This is highest bidder. I set you a question and you have to bid on how many answers you think you can get right and I feel like the knowledge is there but the bidding technique is perhaps lacking. I understand the process of bidding. I just don't have the confidence that's it. The question this week is how many Spaniards can you name that have managed in the Premier League? Spanish men who have managed in the Premier League. We're not going into any kind of political question. If you're from Spain, you're Spanish. So how many of you got your typing? Is that you on Wikipedia? No, I'm typing into a Google Doc. I can turn the laptop around. I trust you for now. Who wants to start off the bidding? Liam, how many do you have? Have I told you how many there are? No, you haven't. Sixteen. I thought there'd be more than that. I did. Well, that's a good sign perhaps for your confidence here. Just picturing in my head but cannot remember in their name. Does that count? We've got a similar brain. If you can sketch them and I can get the person from the sketch, then I think that counts. I have got a note pad here if you want to start drawing, but I'm going to let you know, it's not with two. It has to end eventually, so I'm going to stop that. I'll start with two. Okay, fine. He's starting with two. Well, I'll definitely take your whole bid five. Lovely. Moving up the table. I can't do more than five. Liam. It's early. I've got three names in front of me and my mind's on a bit blank and now all I can think of is Portuguese coaches, obviously. That's not helpful. That's not helpful. That's not helpful. Exactly. You can to mind them and it's got to be Portuguese. There's certainly a few that we've even discussed in this very show. I know, but I'm not for clarity. When we're talking about coaches, their nationality often just bypassed me a little bit. All right, then. In that case, it sounds as though you've got a three. Brilliant. You've got a free run at this. So with your bid a five, take it away. Rafa Benitez. Very good. Alonso. Very good, of course. Pep Guardiola. Lovely. Glad you got him. Albaloa. Albaloa. Yeah. And a little bit. Well, well, it's not but Pellegrini. Oh, Rob, he's Chilean. Not Spanish. So I can say one to steal it. Oh, you have to do. Sorry, I was going to say that. I'll be honest with you. Then I can take Andonio Raiola who I know he's back. He's just too good at this game, Liam. But in fact, I will now list out the full 16 and you're going to I'm already kicking myself. Be kicking yourself. Yeah. So up top pet Guardiola. Rafa Benitez. Roberto Martinez. Oh, yeah. Michaela Tetta. You know, I am re and only a raiola. Havi Garcia. Kiki Sanchez Flores. Yulean Loppetegi. One de Ramos. I took her anchor. Pepemel. Rubensellers. Cisco. Munoz. And then Chabi Alonso and Albaloa. That is the 16 and that is higher speeder. Let's focus on a few other big games to come this weekend then starting with Everton against Manchester United at Goodeson or one of the David Moise Darby's. Now Rob, United roared back from their mulling by the Tigers with an emphatic five to win against it. Switched town. Bring it for lunch. Getting all of the headlines with this hat trick. Good stuff. If you've got him in your fantasy team as I do. But what does Coby Manu have to offer this side? It brings an element of control. But I think all things lead back to Bruno Fernandez. And I think it's really key for him within that team to have the confidence in the other midfielders to stay high. Where do you want your best players? Essentially, we're talking about tactics all day long, sorry Liam. But you want your best players as close to the opposition goal as possible. I agree. That is also a tactic, right? Yes. Don't play Bruno. But this is some arm-rim thing putting him in the pivot. I was like, just playing close to goal. It's not learning. It's that hard. Yes. But he needs the confidence in other people. I think he show what ability he has in tight areas. He had a couple of amazing dribbles out of just small moments of pressure where you think, always toast. He's lost the ball there and he gets out of it and gets the other side of the switch players. He did that really well, played at the right tempo at the right times, kept the ball and then would spray the ball when he needed to and he picks his head up at the right time and all this lends itself to the confidence that him and Tillamanns can deal on the ball with feeding Bruno Fernandez up there and just say, you say up there, you create whatever you need to create up there, allow us to get you the ball. He can do that and he showed that against the switch. Yeah. What a player. Everton, then I feel like a team in transition. Let's call it. It's tough having lost anyone and died to, well, to city. They have brought back Jack Greenlich on loan. How the teams retain a sense of tactical identity when they are in transition like this? Yeah. I think it has been curious for a while. There was, I mean, there were fighting relegation a few years ago. I think it feels like long one of the days when they were top half European level Premier League side. I don't know how much it helps with the kind of the balligan saga as well of having him and then not having him. They're churning their way through a few different strikers at the moment. I mean, there's real obvious strengths that team, but the problem is that they were kind of the things that are dying out a bit in the game of having a really solid backline, really good physical centerbacks could be a really big set piece there as well. Where they did start to evolve was kind of a year ago when they brought Injuice Brewhull. They kind of got a bit more dynamic attacking or kind of more runners beyond the ball. They suddenly became a team that won't just run on crosses, but could get closer to goal in. So it's cut back positions. Injuice helped with that. I think as well because he could play both sides. So I don't really have a great answer to this question because I think everything I have to ask ourselves and there's other teams in the league that need to do this as well as what kind of team do we want to be that there's kind of a good now kind of core of younger players coming through. You look at, if you're out of the run, the way you can stay fit, that's a top level centerback who can do the physical side. He's a left footer can break lines. James Garner last season, every time I watched him was just absolutely outstanding. We just run the show midfield, could do a bit of everything that you say. Okay, all the pieces are there to kind of build a team from. Do you want to put them in behind Tarkovsky and Keen for another three, four years and keep doing that? All you try and kind of change the style a bit more. But this is also what David Moise thing has done so well throughout his career is kind of building a team that feels like the kind of more than the some of its parts. They might not be the most stylish team or the team with kind of the most longevity or most long-term focus. His West Ham team, I think a bit similar, but would get results right, would kind of play up against better teams. So yeah, I wonder where they go from here. Okay, so it sounds like the actual answer is you're not sure they've got a tactical identity. No, I think one thing which would be good for them is clear that Tiana Berry is going to play. Now, again, what he brings is an element of chaos. You can't quite predict what it's going to happen, but I think they can lean into that and say, look, he's going to be there and he will get chances. He is that player. If you're playing with him, just feeding the ball and he will score eventually. You're not sure how many it's going to be out of all the chances he gets, but you've just got to keep faith that he's going to have these chances. And if they can lean into that and just say it is what it is, we are where we are right now, rather than a bit of a beaten attitude, you've got to create something new, like you say, and David Moises is kind of done that out throughout his career. Speaking about major rebuilds, Tiana Hartzberg, how have they signed too many players? Well, they've signed a lot in the same positions and a lot are injured and they keep rotating and because they keep getting injured. So it's something that is a recurring problem, but I'm sure Tiana fans are bored of talking about, I think, deserving will have to communicate really, really well. There's no European football. They've got to just communicate when players are going to play. I think if you're on a dressing room and you're sat there thinking, well, I've got him and him in front of me, the manager needs to turn around and say, I need to keep you on board. There is a cowbell cup game coming in. In two weeks time, I need you to be ready for that. And it gives you a focus. It gives you something. Just be there. Just be ready for that one game and you can prepare around it and then really go out and make your case on the pitch and and that's really pretty much all that you can do right now because when if everyone's back fit, it's going to be so overloaded that there's going to be unhappy people. It's inevitable. Is that something, well, I was thinking about it from a Chelsea perspective. Do you feel like Chelsea have managed their massive squad well? Well, you look at Mariska and what he did was brutal. Yes. For some respects, in just cold people. He communicated that and everybody pretty much took it really well. I went fair enough. Elise has told me and yeah, I'm not really a part of it and it's up now up to me whether I go and be a part of a bomb squad or I go and be a part of something somewhere else. So he communicated it and they struggled when the games dried up, when the cup games went, when everything so all of a sudden the people who you were trying to keep involved were then ostracized but left out if of match day squads. That's when you get the unhappy dressing room and that's the hardest part being in the dressing room as well. You're there trying to control people go and come on. You know, let's get out and train. Let's do this. And why? I'm not going to play. And it's really hard to counter that with anything because you know, they're not going to play as well. So yeah, it's a tough lesson to learn. It does seem like they've taken that approach as well, given some of the outgoing as well, does that be said, okay, you're not you're not happening if you want to get out of here, help yourself. In terms of the game this weekend, Forest, a way chasing the first one of the season up against that 343. How are they breaking this down? Well, they need to better out what I think than they were in the Newcastle game. So they really struggled in terms of their chance creation. Thought Poro was quite a curious pick out on the wing. I know options are like there. It was Mikey more in the first game than you can't spend this amount of money and end up with a young academy graduate there in the first game. And then. And he's left anyway. Yeah. And then now putting Poro club captain right back there. And I also thought the problem was you then lose Pedro Poro's over-upping qualities. He looked a lot worse than I think he often is because Norm, he's running around a winger and then can kind of play that role, receiving the pass on the overlap and threatening that way. And also a major problem they've got is dealing with going behind in games. Got a quiz question for UK. No. Do you remember the last time Spurs won a Premier League game from 1-0 down after conceding first? It's like 44 games ago, isn't it? Yeah, November 2024. It's not quite 44. I think it's in the high 30s. I think it's a much better. Yeah, but the point being I'd be spoke about this is like there are tactical problems and there are psychological issues and it's a weird problem to have when you're talking about this is a run now from multiple different coaches with different players that come in that happen that you go, how do you deal with the diversity versus not being able to deal with it? And this is at a time where comeback performances or wins points from behind are at like fairly high levels in the Premier League that lots of other teams can do this is a very kind of Spurs problem at the moment. Sorry. Another game to keep an eye on is Newcastle against Bournemouth. So many people kind of wrote off Newcastle. I mean, we're talking about them at this in the first episode and wondering how it was going to work. Kind of cool to see how it is playing out. Started the season with that point against Liverpool. I'm lucky not to win and then Spurs away. How has Yosu done it? Yeah, he's clear messaging and it is something that he has got everyone bought into a first and foremost which is key from a dressing point of view. Tactics are simple and one that has allowed the with the transition and loss of players and ex new expectation of we're not going to control games. We haven't got the same midfield and we're going to have to have time. It's actually working his favour and he works in the team's favour because the precious kind of off all of a sudden and you've got new players to buy into dead itches and springs to mind. All of a sudden is a fans favourite already and be quick, be direct and just if you're in doubt, get the ball to nick or go and start this. That's about it. They hold the shape and do it really, really simply and they have such a clear identity. The two tales of two players of Vista and Valtemarder, one whose a man transformed in terms of coming out, finding a position, fit and firing, another one who can't quite do what Yajla wants. Sorry, you don't fit here, you're off and he's gone. So I think they're in lies a new identity, a new style and they've managed to transition into that very, very quickly. Right, for our final part we're going to be talking about the three bees, Routford, Brighton and Bournemouth. We've been speaking this week a lot about transition and rebuilds and these are teams who just seem to constantly lose their best players and manage to reinvent themselves fine. I want to know how they do it. So first of all I guess talk about recruitment, how much do you feel as though it's changed since you were playing? I think you're looking now at such a clear structure within clubs and a plan and a route Brighton managed to find these players from South America or other parts of the world that bring them in and you're saying, this is a clear structure of how we're going to do it. We have a clear identity of where we are and that communication of where they are as a club, I think is key and that communication to a player who's due to sign, I think some menu at Bournemouth was a wonderful example of keeping him in board to say you will go just allow us the time to choose when it's going to be and you know it was a wonderful send off that he scores the winner in the last with these last kick of as a Bournemouth player that sort of thing but that is clear panning and communication. I think Brentford are a fantastic model of keeping their identity, keeping their structure as a club and adding big play, big signings and not panicking about those big signings. You've got Tiago spending his first season injured. He looked at someone like Uttara not really firing in the first season but they keep their identity and keep doing it and it's been you know something that stands out because they are so well structured and they communicate that to players coming in, when they go, they're also doing it in a good way as well. And it seems as though they can have a lot of confidence or from the outside it feels as though these teams have a lot of confidence in their data-led approaches and I think that informs the way that they're behaving. Yeah and you have managers who the interview is this is the style of football we're doing, sign up to it and we don't have to change everything around it so that's kind of key as well. Yeah okay and in terms of those coaches and that kind of malleable nature that you were talking about Rob is that is that key to how these clubs are set up? Yeah I think so I think they look for a very specific kind of coach and they're not prepared to make what might look like some slightly kind of left field appointments, Brighton took a coach from the you know second tier in Germany, Bournemouth when they kind of got rid of Garronneed and bought a road or in was seen as okay you could have stuck with a coach that kept you you know out of relegation but they said no look we want to move on that's kind of change our style and then when they brought in Rose of the back of that they go we know kind of and we know what we want and they kind of say even in the press release they say the coaches that we're bringing in are purely kind of based on the style that we want they're not really bothered about names in the way that I think or kind of trophies in the way that other clubs might be and that they also kind of know their place and the pecking water a little bit where and this I think plays their advantage they don't kid themselves about what they are or what they aren't as a club where they say and as Robert points out they know that players might not be there for a hugely long period of time but they're really kind of prepared for that you look at the succession kind of planning that Brentford have had with their strike because over the years they've had just going and this goes back into the championship but in six of the last eight seasons they've had a strike a hit 20 plus goals which for you know even if that was a top-end Premier League team Manchester City or Arsenal and you'd be like that's impressive but and that's a lot of different players within that I think that goes all about to Neil Moore Payne the championship but that's Olly Watkins followed by Tony followed by you know and Boymo and Vista and all players have slightly different profiles as well but what they then work really well I think is and kind of how they use the data is it tells them who to not sign more than who to sign when they talk about kind of their filtering process of data will help them kind of shop into obscure leagues where okay you can't have kind of four different scouts watching the vendors weighed in third tier kind of every single week I'm embellishing a bit to prove a point yeah you know when you want to shop in these markets going out to kind of deep leagues in Europe or out to Japan out to kind of East Asia out to Latin America that that's really hard for people to do you can use the data to them filter and say who's performing really really well and also look at kind of the underlying metrics a bit deeper true fare the left-back replacement for me lost Kirk is this a great example of someone who when we look at the running numbers profiles really really similarly as a really aggressive intense running left back gets on the overlap and awful lot gets on the under lap a lot and stuff that doesn't always come out in the event numbers of kind of passes or touches but you can profile a play in a different way I think they're so robust and how they look at all of that and then go okay we see who we've got on a short list now we'll do our kind of dividends of saying who's a kind of good egg who's a good character look at injury history all those things that kind of go into deciding assigning and they don't kind of skip that human part out but they make sure they do that after profan the players in the right way as well so why aren't other clubs able to do this in this way is it is it just that the three b's as we're calling them have put so much time into this over a period of years and even if other clubs now luckily realize that this is this is what you need to do in order to buy smart it's just they're behind people on social media have been theorizing about kind of having slightly middle-class fan bases that might help as well being in the sense that they're kind of there are a lot more tolerant of players and kind of bad patches of form that kind of that you know I think I think they're a bit more sympathetic that they might not kind of hand them out in the same way I mean an important way to put into this is that they haven't really been in Europe for a consistent period of time we're talking about bright now going to their second season in in Europe that they I don't think they're in kind of that cycle that kind of a new castle suppose are being in kind of the other kind of teams that might contend up in those positions have had to have had to kind of deal with and the patience is huge among the coaches as well there was a period last year where hurts are I think would one one game in 13 and fans were justified we saying look that is a sackable record and elsewhere it definitely is and born with stuck with iraida after kind of a couple bad starts to a season and said look we trust that you're a coach that focuses so much on pressing and that takes time to coach time to embed and kind of reap the reward later down the line and I think clubs at the top level work kind of a bit more scrutiny and will kind of pull the trigger a bit faster and the same with players that they then will shop in different markets right where a Manchester United will think and maybe fairly so that they don't have the time to buy someone from Belgium give them six months to a year to develop let another club do that and then they'll pay the additional 40 50 million pounds because they've got that kind of money I think when you're on lower budgets and you are strict about that like these clubs are it requires you to be really really smart because you can't just outspend your rivals I think as well the history of the clubs helps in the certainly two of the three of gone bust or normal bust yeah so you're actually starting off with a blank canvas and you can start off with no structure whatsoever and you're starting around and go at the expectation is virtually minimal yeah and build and we can build in such a way that we can do it in with a clear structure at the top end you haven't got that time you haven't got that that that blank canvas there's already structures in place to destroy it and rebuild it is such a hard thing to do within a football club because you've got to keep the wheels have got to keep on turning and it sounds like there's basically two structural points in that case to to your point about players know that they're going to be able to go to suit the club but they will be able to go so you can therefore hope to attract really top players because they know they're not going to get trapped there and then also the managers yes they might not have as big a say on transfers but they then are able to be within a system I mean more like a structural system with a system of playing that means that they have this backup that Liam's talking about that they can lose and they will be back I think one thing I would have loved as a player and it's obviously coming far too late would have been the the agreed fee of what you being solder right because then you have a clear communication when you're signing to say when you're worth this much you can go and when that gets hit you go and if someone else is willing to pay that you're done and and therefore there is no ill feeling there's no bad bad sort of period of time before you're leaving and I think that's a big part of what helps these clubs is is just to say the player knows that he's worth that much when he's that worth that much he can earn that much and he goes on to do bigger and better things go do it and I think that's such a good structured facet of these clubs what you're setting your price at Rob it it was well what did I bid five I mean only got four yeah so yeah something above below five before we go if you're an NFL fan the athletic has something exciting for you starting next week the athletic live presented by Google Gemini is a brand new YouTube watch along on NFL game days featuring the biggest and best beat reporters the athletic has to offer you can even become part of the show in the interactive chat on YouTube and it all starts from September 8th get involved well that's it for us thank you Liam thank you Rob we will be back with another tactical preview next week until then take care we'll see you soon