Pochettino’s Priorities: Decoupling Managerial Longevity from USMNT Evolution

Welcome to the Total Soccer Show, USMNT Weekly, our regular parade to all things men's national team. On today's show, we're talking about Richard Pochettino's extended tenure, and the challenge is he's going to face heading towards 2030. We look at the part ahead for the team in this cycle and how this group's going to evolve for its next few tournaments. My name's Ryan Bailey. Join me today. Taylor Rockwell is here all the way from Richmond, Virginia. Hi, Taylor. How are you? I am doing well. Ryan Bailey, having read like 12 different, did the U.S. fail is Pochettino a good coach. Articles. I'm here to say. I don't know. We're going to find out. Hmm. I look forward to you. So talking about the things you read in those articles, they're much more than Taylor's. That sounds wonderful. Very good. Like an AI model. It felt like an AI response. I'm simply wondering her friend is actually here. Maybe he's not. Maybe he is not. Who knows? The Graham Rosenthal. You just heard his voice. Hi, Graham. How are you? I'm good. Ryan Bailey. How are you? I notice that you are back in your normal recording space. The dog, not the Argentine goalkeeper under the desk are all the usual pieces in place again. All is well, Graham. All is well. I'm back on the Eastern time zone. I have air conditioning in my surrounds. It's wonderful. I'm very glad indeed to be back and good to be back doing USMNT weekly. Not least because Joe now he's returned. Hi, Joe. Hey, I'm back. I am thrilled to be here. It's been, I don't know. It's been eight years since I've been back. At least it feels that way because literally everything has happened while I've been gone. FIFA is in champ. Okay. I guess that's not new. But it's kind of a new shade of shambles these days. MLS is a new commissioner. Potsch. You know, his back goes those in London. All these really life is good because we have lots to talk about. I'm thrilled. Yeah. This is what happens when you go away. Joe, things fall apart. Don't do it again. Okay. You know what? That's on me. Message received. I'm going to sit in this chair. Literally this one until the end of time. Excellent. Good to hear. I think it's actually our fault that the whole world, world football has fallen apart because this is the first time since World Cup final that we've done, uh, she was a for some. So I feel whole again now that we're all back together. But the world soccer thanks us because it fell apart without us. Didn't do it. It didn't do. Joe, some housekeeping. You did your vacation was in Eastside, Lewis. I believe. How was it? Yeah, it was great. I mean, America, soccer city, soccer capital USA, soccer city USA. No, I was in Hawaii with my wife and it was lovely. We had a great time. We got to explore, uh, lots of a couple different islands and did a lot of beach, a good bit of hiking and just, I honestly, one of the most stunning places that I've ever been. So really, really thankful that you guys kept the ship moving while it was gone. That was ever endowed. Not that I'm like the, the key piece of the puzzle that if you pull it out, it's all going to crumble. But it was, it was a joy to get to listen to some shows on the way home yesterday. I didn't feel like screaming in opposition at any point, which, which is great. And we had a blast on the trip. So everything was lovely. It was literally our job to keep the ship moving. That's how Joe got home. We were just waiting for them in the seas. We really, this was the world's first soccer podcast powered coal steamer. So I mean, I don't know why they still have coal in the name that doesn't really make sense to me or why it's called. It's Joe. Who's powering it? Yeah, true. That makes more sense than it being both coal powered steam powered and then also some our soccer podcast powered. But what they're doing these days with hybrid tech is, yeah, just shoveling those hot tics and all right, let's try again, let's pass back on the coal powered rails. Patreon.com slash total soccer show is where you're going to find out bonus content. We've got bonus episodes, bonus video content and access to our discord server, all the cool kids are in there. Come and say hello. We love everybody who has a chat with us in there. Patreon.com slash total soccer show. And thank you to everybody who supports us via that medium. First things first, Joseph Lowry, let's come back to you because as you noted, you did miss some key stories, including, but not limited to Marisa Pochettino signing another contract with US soccer. What's your key takeaway here? How are you feeling about it now? Yeah, this is maybe the most anti climactic way to begin this sort of episode, but I'm fine with it. Unless they don't feel super strongly, Taylor, I know coming, coming into this whole discussion last week and the week before you were quite excited about the possibility of poch coming back. I think there are reasons for that. I also think there's some pretty clear downsides as well. And so I don't really still know exactly how to feel, other than my overarching takeaway is that the thing that matters most right now is not the manager. It's bringing in the next generation of talents. It's identifying it. It's recruiting it. It's creating it into the first team, massaging some egos of the existing first team guys that you need to massage in order to make that happen. If Pochettino does that for four years, that's great. If he does it for one year and the next guy does it for three years, I mean, I'm kind of fine with any way that you split up that pie. The downside obviously is that you're going to hire Pochettino and he's going to leave when whatever job he wants comes open. That is a real possibility. I think though if that happens in the first bit of the cycle, you can probably recover from that. It's a little inconvenient. But it's probably not a deal breaker. It's not going to derail an entire cycle or an entire world cup kind of have just seen this happen. It turned out mostly okay when you move from Greg Baraltor to Marisa and Pochettino, but it is it's not ideal. We can all agree that it would be better to have a coach that you are pretty confident it was going to be around for all four years than one that you're leaning towards probably won't be. But like I said, I think the thing that matters most is that the next generation of talented young players are integrated in a way that makes sense and a way that you're excited about. And Pochettino has already made a comment about that. He's already talked about how in this past world cup cycle, they looked at all sorts of players and there are even players that they didn't get a chance to bring in that they looked at. And he talked about this group of 16, 17, 18, 19, 20-year-old young players that are in the US pool that are sort of inching towards, hey, we could actually help this team at the world cup. So I care far more about the talent pool than I do about the coaching. I don't think that should surprise anybody. Pochettino, I think, is probably the best coach that was available or at least we think that was the case. And the US has him, at least for now, maybe for longer than just for now. And I think that's a pretty good thing. We had some skepticism when we discussed it last week, Joe, about whether Poch would actually go through to 20-30. Sure. How do you feel about that? I would, if the odds were even, I would bet no, he will not be around in 2030. But I don't know, right? I have no idea what the bio language Taylor, you talked about that earlier in the week. We don't really know what that looks like. Is it a case of the bio number gets higher and higher as he gets closer and closer to 20-30? Maybe we don't, we don't know that answer either. What I will say is I think if a job that Pochettino wants comes open, and if it's a job that he wants more than continuing to coach the US fans national team, that I would be surprised if the bio language got in the way of that, right? Ultimately, Pochettino is the one that has a lot of the power in this situation because he's actually the one showing up and doing the work. And he don't want someone who doesn't want to be there leading into a world cup. That's really as simple as it gets. I think Pochettino has said all the right things, to be honest. It seems like he is excited about this. I think he genuinely enjoyed getting the coaches team with the world cup. But I don't know exactly what that means when Tottenham comes calling or Arsenal or Real Madrid or whatever, we've already seen clearly that big clubs are going to be interested in Mauricio Pochettino. I loved, I loved, San Jason Johnson come on a road about this in a piece that's up right now for Backheeled. He called back to when the Milan thing was happening. You guys remember that? When AC Milan was talking with Pochettino before the World Cup or with Pochettino's representatives before the World Cup. And JT Batson, CEO of US Soccer, was asked about the Milan links to Pochettino. And Batson, instead of saying like downplaying it, he basically upplayed it and said, oh, there've been way more of those conversations with clubs than have been reported. So he has just leaned fully into, hey, we have one of the most desirable managers on the planet. This is what happens. And that's a good thing. He's not talking to Greg Boehrlter, put it that way. Right. That's the messaging, right? He's like, we have someone that everybody wants. And why is that a bad thing for us? That's a leaned into that narrative. At the end of the last cycle, he's going to have to lean even harder this time around. Yeah. So let's talk a bit more, Taylor, about this cycle and Pochettino's priorities. Where do we think they lay? Presumably, there's going to be some evolution here and some, maybe even some revolution we could add not on the front of that if we, if we so desire. But what do you think? The tent poles, the priorities for Poch going forward, let's kick off here. I think the main priority, as Joe's already outlined, is going to be examining the talent pool, the potential pool at that and kind of looking at other options at other areas. That's where I think the upcoming friendlies could be really interesting with who he calls in. And maybe more importantly, who he doesn't call in, does he give workup players a rest? I don't think we need to be like resting players necessarily, but is this like upcoming window more like in line with talent development and talent identification versus playing the players that we know is it some combination thereof? So I think that first international window is going to give us some insight into what his priorities are in terms of the pool itself. And then I also think we'll get some clarity on what exactly his job is going to be going forward. Because I had questions about the length of the contract and some of the like terminology therein about the break clause and everything, but I'm also curious what exactly his additional expanded roles are going to be and how he's going to approach them. And that's the thing I'm sure he's going to get a lot of questions about. And we'll see if his answers to those questions are specific, which tells us that he is actually working on, you know, like looking at youth development or overhaul the youth development in America. And not a small feed at all, like that should be totally easy, not that out in a weekend. Or is that more so they needed to justify paying him a little bit more to keep him around longer. So they gave him expanded job titles, if not actually expected him to do expanded tasks. I do think there'll be more on Pachitino's plate, not just because of the language that was used in the press release, but also because of how the structure of US soccer seemingly has evolved, which is there's been no replacement for Matt Crocker, right? And at this point, if you're not going to hire a replacement from Matt Crocker before you hire a coach, why are you going to bother doing it at all, right? I understand that Matt Crocker was working intimately with youth soccer all across the country was trying to get his head wrapped around the beasts that is youth sports in the United States. But the reality is you've already hired the coach. You've done the highest profile thing. You probably would have brought in someone to fill that role if you were going to do it. We know that Dan Helfrich, who's a high up now at US soccer recently brought into the organization, was involved on the sporting side and will continue to be. It sounds like involved on the sporting side. And now Pachitino has been given expanded responsibilities again, Taylor, to your point. We don't really know exactly what that looks like. And if we're honest, we're probably not ever going to get a ton of detail. At least not in the near future on what that looks like because it's not a super glamorous thing to talk about. And even if it gets talked about, it's going to be hard to parse out some of what those details look like. But I don't think we're going to get a Matt Crocker replacement as sort of one of the very downstream, not super relevant, but still somewhat notable takeaways from all this. I think that job has now, it's seemingly been absorbed into a couple of other jobs. I'd be surprised if that wording of the additional technical responsibilities equates to Pachitino taking a super hands-on role on the on the technical side of things, nothing that he has said, either as US, excuse me, US men's national team head coach or previously in his career suggest to me that he has an interest in the kind of the macro side of things. He's a coach who wants to work with players. And so I kind of suspect that amounts to as much as him sitting in via Zoom from Barcelona, some technical meetings that are being held by US soccer and basically just going through the motions in that sense. But I would still like to find out more about what his responsibilities are going to be in that sense. One other thing that I think will be interesting is what is the kind of approach to scheduling over the next four years or specifically the next two years because I think that's a talking point it's been doing the rounds and some of those articles I mentioned that I am starting to buy into that a thing he can do and US soccer as a whole probably needs to do is is try to shift away from the mentality of the world cup is the thing that matters and it's the only thing that matters when it comes to the US men's national team. Because it's just that's too long of a cycle. There's too many other like opportunities missed because you are prioritizing a thing that happens every four years and we should it's the biggest tournament on the planet and you know people get excited about it. But that doesn't mean that we should get lost in the present day situations and I think we can watch the team play and evaluate the talent based on what's it going to look like in four years is that player going to be around that's always going to be part of it. But I think there can also be more immediate attention paid to okay what are they doing now what are the tactics how are they adjusting what have they added what new wrinkles do they have what new players do they have and what new competitions are they kind of taking seriously and and blooding players but also kind of pushing to get results and pushing to get wins and the gold combinations league are fine examples of that and I think things that could be prioritized and should be prioritized because they're going to be helpful in you know just getting back to work up qualifying and remembering what that's like playing concaf opposition and meaningful games. But then obviously the Copa America two years from now with the U.S. hopefully attending hopefully potentially hosting but if not the really is playing in that competition I think that is a thing that should be prioritized and we should be voting towards it shouldn't be four years it should be the present and it should be two years in my mind. Yeah this is an interesting moment for Pachitino where I'll be honest I was sort of looking forward to the you know what will happen who will they get as a new manager sort of narrative that goes around every well depends every two to four to six years basically because I think that's always a fascinating kind of way to get some insight into how U.S. soccer is thinking and all these things we don't really get that new manager narrative boost to the work up cycle because the cycles are long and at times it's helpful to have things to talk about and things to think about and tactically there's not as much intrigue I think around what the U.S. will look like in 2030 with Pachitino at the helm potentially or maybe not at the helm as it would have been if say I don't know Thomas Christensen or Jesper Sorenson or Jim Curtin had been hired whoever else you would have looked at right Shavie Hernandez any of these any of these options but what I will say is this is still in charted territory and Graham you made this point earlier on the week there's a lot of second cycle talk that's gone around the Pachitino rehire and yes technically this is his second cycle or at least his second partial cycle but the reality is we've never seen ratio Pachitino start a cycle like this before we've never seen him in this phase of their national management because Taylor you mentioned it it's a very different challenge right Pachitino got into the job in October of 2024 sprinting into 2025 and 2026 he less than two years he had 10 windows between him and the world cup it was full steam ahead we are only thinking about that tournament really nation's league was not a priority and I think you could sort of see that both in the performance of the players and the performance of of the coaching staff and how they went and set the team up in those sorts of things really he was still learning and the goal was hey let's not kill ourselves to a nation's league let's do everything we can to set ourselves up for the World Cup Pachitino talked about that over and over and over again the only thing that matters is to be in the best condition at the World Cup and I think more or less to be honest he kind of got there in the end even though there was a bit of a winding path to get there now you can't just be thinking World Cup World Cup World Cup World Cup World Cup yes it needs to be in the background of every decision that you make but really it's it's much more in the background than in the foreground just makes things different now than it was two years ago three years ago I mean there's just so much more on the plate right with this cycle even accounting for it being let's just assume Pachitino has does stay the four years until 2030 longer period of time but much more on the plate where there's nations league there's gold cup there's potentially the Copa America and then there's qualifiers like the US will have to qualify for this next World Cup as a non host nation as far as I could see this isn't confirmed yet because of course we don't know how big the 2030 World Cup is going to be and whether it's going to be 48 teams or 64 teams but as far as I could see qualification for that World Cup will start in September 27 there's a couple phases for the US to go through in that process so there there is a lot more to kind of distracts probably the wrong words because it's not a distraction distraction is probably a welcome thing actually to pull you from one window to the next but feels like an entirely different process that that Pach is going to go through and in a weird way despite the fact that the stakes will be higher I kind of feel like Pach given everything we know about him and he's how much of his approach is about intensity and energy I think he might find this easier where there's more competitive games remember how difficult it was to gauge so many of those friendly match performances because the US may be taking that game seriously but maybe their opposition isn't to the same extent so even if you get a positive performance and result it's not going to translate into the World Cup I think some of that will be washed away in this process we may get a truer picture of where this team actually is all right um great to come back to the the idea of the expanded job role as well um whether that's getting a bit more ingratiated with the machinations of US soccer is there a precedent for that for other you for other international coaches oh there's one in a US sense maybe uh what's the term you use at Joe over shot his skis over what I can't remember well and it's but clinsman was a skier was a skier and he maybe went too far in his role previously for the US he was a diver as well if you lost me there we go there we go he'll never leave that behind while you yes he was he was officially though technical director and head coach at the same time so it seems like Pach is nowhere near that that sort of responsibility but again but again clinsman did nothing with that technical director role it seemed to have just been a a pay grade sort of thing so like it's a really confusing one where he doesn't have that remit necessarily but at the same time there's a potentiality that he has actually more power and influence than clinsman with a smaller job title like it's all kind of theoretical at this point but I think it's worth noting just how little clinsman did in that role yeah I mean I guess given how the nature of international soccer means that these these head coaches do have more time on their hands I guess practically speaking it could be possible for someone to combine those two roles and do it effectively I just can't think of many examples where that has happened so it did we spoke about it on Monday right it did to put my back up slightly reading that wording but in hindsight now that I've had a couple days to sit with it I'm not overly concerned all right very good Pach famously not good at sending players emails but who might be getting some communications from the coach in the coming weeks and months let's talk about that a much more after this break join us then tell us all good show welcome back to usmnt weekly at Joe on this evolving usmnt side do you have an idea of the pipeline and there are any new names we think might be coming in are there any spots who are in danger under the Dispochotina regime going forward how we feeling about the the roster makeup or the potential room danger danger yeah right bro red hot red eyes blazing it's blazing I think that there is a lot of potential for change for the US in the cycle much more than we've seen in quite some time in Taylor you and I did an episode going through 10 different youth prospects various various age prospects that would have been what two weeks ago now I suppose we went through and looked so many different rising young players since we did that list I've already had immediate regret about names that we did not include on that list which I I think really does say something about where this player pool is right now so the thing that makes this cycle different from the last World Cup cycle is that the established core is not going to be in their prime come the next World Cup right out of the 2022 World Cup policy and McKenney and Adams and Anthony Robinson and Sergino Dest and Tim way a 2022 is the warm up right at the at that World Cup the US was the second youngest team at the entire tournament based off a minutes played for their for their players that was hey let's see what we can do let's go out and what's experienced World Cup for the first time most of us because we didn't get there in 2018 let's see how things go and the US made it to the round of 16 which is it's destiny for every time and then you get into 2026 on home soil that was the moment right that was such a big tournament for this team and ultimately it sort of more or less one as expected when he lose to a better team in the round of 16 in in 2030 things are less certain like are we 100% sure that Todd Adams is going to be starting in midfield in 2030 as an over 30 player who's already made of glass I'm sure not Western McKenney of you know reasonably a lot of these guys are reasonably injury prone right now to get into this specific individuals other than Adams because he's the poster boy for all this stuff the policy and McKenney and Adams and Robinson and waya all the players I just mentioned they're going to be over 30 every single center back that ratio potchino brought to the 2026 World Cup will be over 30 not to position where you can maybe age a little bit more gracefully but still the point stands I think it's Ryan to get to your question about who spots are maybe up for grabs I think almost every spots up for grabs I do think that we will see a lot of the guys that we talk about now a lot of the guys who play key roles in 26 play key roles in 2030 I do expect that policy will still start the McKenney will still start I think ante Robinson could still start I just think that there's going to be more opportunity for players to come up behind those players and even to push those players the ones I just mentioned the real stars so the biggest names in usnity history I think there'll be a lot of room to push those players to the brink for minutes and maybe maybe even hop over a few of them in the departure yeah and the good news for potch is there is very much a next generation for him to to depend to and I might not have said that a year ago this is a pretty recent development where it feels like on a weekly basis or a monthly basis at least there is another emerging star and Joe were you sub referencing maybe Neil Pierre who looks like a pretty good bet now when you know we wouldn't have mentioned him before the wild cup or maybe even a couple weeks ago he's flying for a rejuvenated Philadelphia union right now but I am hopeful that even with these friendly matches that are fast approaching that they were announced yesterday for the mega September in October window and in the November window as well I'm hopeful that we'll see a number of these these players integrated or that process started it pretty much immediately with these games so you know guys like Xavier Goso who it sounds like is going to be in the Premier League for next season guys like no okay banks if he'll accept the call and potentially a dream a meta although maybe slightly early for him like there's a whole pool of players and eco-sacrifice like he's he's got an injury right now it doesn't and so I'm not him for these upcoming windows but there is a whole pool of players that seems to have have a marriage and it's it's a big leap to suggest that these guys are immediately ready to replace pull six and mechanics and turn out of them they're not yeah but it feels like there are there there is a next generation that that puts you know can at least try out in some of these roles yeah because I think like when he takes over initially as Joe's already said it's like a sprint to the world cup and so it's it was about identifying the best possible team that fits the style he wants to play but as we all talked about at length on numerous occasions it was also about challenging the kind of status quo and challenging the established veterans and making them fight for their spot or binding everybody that your name is not written in ink and that starting 11 like you've got to earn that right him with a new coach coming in no one had earned it and some players seem like they had and then hadn't and then earned it back some players fell by the wayside and I think we will probably see like a return to that pattern again when this cycle starts and and that means not just players that didn't end up making the world cup like potentially being back in the fold Diego Luna looking in your direction but it is doing nationals and it is the younger generation that I think can be utilized obviously to see what what their talent level is with their capable of at this level but then also utilized to challenge the established veterans and remind them like there are guys nip it at your heels you got to keep performing you got to keep playing you can't rest on your laurels because there are other hunger your players who have a lot of potential coming through and could replace you if you you know take a season off or aren't at your best or kind of don't see how much work it's going to take to be ready for goal cup Copa America the next world cup and so I think that next generation as deep as it seems to be has be very excited for things to come I will say one of my concerns about pochettino coming out of the last cycle is that sometimes his player picks were a bit odd right and it sounds like a lot of that tailored to what you're talking about was designed to get something out of the players that he knew he was always going to rely on at the world cup but even when it comes to some of those players that he yet I think probably thought he was going to rely on at the world cup using Tim way on the left side was a bit odd and was repeatedly unfruitful for this US team having Sebastian Borelter as the first sub off the bench with respect to Borelter I think it's a useful player I don't know that he would have been the first guy that I would bring on from a talent perspective at the world cup as a sub I mean I know he's the second guy against Belgium but there are other moments where he used the first guy off the bench until when moves higher I don't know that bringing in Nathan Harrell or Sean Zowowski maybe quite had the effects of making these established USMT years panic in the way that maybe poch wanted to all that to say we talked about this already I think talent ID scouting dual national recruitment integrating these young players finding the right ones the best ones to maximize this team and the massaging egos of the guys that are around that's that that's the job like that that is the biggest it's not a tactical revamp it's not it's not like re re making anything from scratch it's who can we target to integrate into this team I will say that my maybe my talent ID which I'm sure is nowhere near what poch I have not always agreed with the choice that pochino has made and I'm sure that would be true of almost any manager right because there's a lot more to consider than just pure talent right that's not how you build a roster there is there are a number of other factors you have to consider that information that we're not privy to but I am fascinated truly fascinated to see which which young players because there will be some I'd be floored if we didn't see a couple of of young players brought into this next four game window that's been mentioned already in September October who are they going to be I really don't know who pochino is going to go to because it feels predicting what he's going to do literally every turn has been almost impossible and I don't know if that's going to change any time soon yeah I think talent identification is going to be huge for this process and I agree with what you say Joel like everyone's spot is up for grabs because of the the situation the US finds itself in up until 2030 at the same time in the immediate term if I were to highlight Tim Reem at the age of wild as you know 39 as a priority to find a replacement for him great servant had a much better world cup than I feared he would but it is absolutely time to find someone else because he's not going to play in 2030 so poch has to start traveling some other options there second position that I would highlight in the immediate term and it would be great if an elite level goalkeeper could emerge over the next 12 to 18 months and even if they don't I think Matt free should be challenged again considering how the world cup went for him at least ended for him and he hasn't been strong enough in general for him to be untouchable so I I would expect to see Matt Turner maybe some other options given a shot there and then I also think and that this is maybe my most contentious point I also think the right side of the team needs some consideration and I don't want to be knee-jerk after the Belgium game I don't know how I feel about Sergino Dess at this moment in time where is also sort of floating around in no man's land I like the Alex Freeman and McKenna dynamic on that side but it's maybe lacking like some verticality so maybe that could be an area for experimentation as well those would be heading into these three friendly windows or excuse me two windows we're going to get before the end of the year that's where I would like to see some some fresh options tried out I think that's right on the money Graham goalkeeper remains a question mark I think there's all sorts of names that could go on the hat for goalkeeper we talked about Chris Brady and he got his first start for the world cup he's a young option who I think is is solid and maybe warrants a couple of appearances at the national team to see what he can do till you and I talked about Diego Cokin recently on maybe was that was on the page around a couple weeks ago Brian Schwachy at Nashville is it's been a real breakout star in MLS this year sort of the anchor for one of the league's best teams and there's been a lot of of rotating ahead of him because national struggle with injuries especially the last couple of months young Leonard Prescott over in Germany who's a dual U.S. German international he is somebody that I'd be pretty surprised if he ended up playing for the U.S. because he is really highly rated over in Germany maybe even in a way that someone like Noah Kay Banks isn't but he is a name to at least have on the list and then of course you have you have Matt Freese who I don't think is ultimately going anywhere and Turner and some of these other players that we've talked about already at right back I know this is a very different profile of player than Alex Freeman and maybe that's why it could work Frank U.S. feel that the union tell you and I talked about him in that episode that we did I'm a huge fan of his game the way that he can deliver service from from high and wide on that right side or can say a little bit deeper I think it's more likely he's competing with Freeman for minutes than anybody else I think he is he's going to be in that battle more than he's going to solve the hey can we get someone who can generate real threat on the dribble and goal scoring opportunity higher up the field Westfield's not that kind of player he's a fallback ultimately but he is a guy that could factor into that right side dynamic somewhere and then you talk about center back I think about banks and and no Pierre right now is being the two that sort of seem foreign away I do think there's a few young center backs and MLS cups in James it's porting Kansas City Chorrilla at FC Cincinnati some interesting names to watch there that we didn't highlight last time around Pierre though is yeah he is the one that I've been kicking myself for the most Pierre and one other player that maybe a full of a chance to mention on this episode maybe it'll come on a future episode but six foot seven incredibly fluid athlete there's a certain point right where where as a soccer player if you're too tall it becomes a bit of a detriment right because it's it's so it's a sport that's based so much on agility and short change of direction and the taller you are often the harder it is to do that it doesn't seem super hard for Neil Pierre to do it right now maybe there's still more growth to do and maybe that could derail him a bit like that is a genuine concern but the guy moves unbelievably fluidly he is insanely good in the air I suppose yeah he's not insane given that he's six foot seven he's ridiculously good in the absolutely I feel like watching highlights these last few weeks I'm like did I watch this goal before or has he just scored another header and he has already scored multiple goals in very limited minutes for the union uh he looks like a guy that can actually provide real defensive ability to the US team and I don't think that's super common among centerbacks coming through these days they get a lot of young defenders are past first defense second and I think Pierre is is past second event first I do think his passing game still needs some work but I think there are bones in there for him to be useful and I'm not sure how much we're going to learn about his passing game at the union because that's not how they play but yeah those those are some guys along with them at the right wing gozo is the one that would make the most sense to bring in especially hot off the back of this move though maybe we know the patch you know playbook maybe he's of the mind that leaving him with palace is more important that would not surprise me whatsoever but I mean those are the names I think at the positions you mentioned Graham and I think you mentioned the right spots yeah I think like where I come down on all of this and why I end up being excited for pochettino to be back like the primary reason is because as we've talked about it's it's a short window to get ready for the 26 world cop inheriting a generation of players that have played together that the expectation is there but maybe there isn't the depth that we had hoped there would be at that point and so Joe to your point about like the burhalter being his first change to me that's not just because but that's not like because burhalter is a next level difference maker anything like that I think it's the player that pochettino trusted the most to execute the game plan and play the way he asked and I think it could play at a high enough level that he was serviceable usable and I think of it as something like like a restaurant analogy where you've like run out of a protein or you've run out of a key ingredient and so that night you've got to kind of like figure it out we don't have that but this is a thing that people are going to want so we've got to find a way to make it work and then the next day we will find more of that protein it will find a new ingredient that makes that dish work a little bit better and I think he just didn't have many other ingredients at the world cup and so he had to make do with what he had and that's where I came away really embracing Joe's idea that in order to go far to world cup to make us sustain run and look good while you do it you just have to have a crazy amount of depth in almost every position and it's not just bodies it is bodies that can play this specific way you need to play and you have the familiarity with them to know what they can do in certain situations and so that's where like the Westfield spotlight that Joe just did is a good one in my mind because as you said like it's a Freeman competitor right it's somebody who could play in the style of Alex Freeman at present and can challenge him for minutes potentially but if if Westfield comes through now we have two or three players who can kind of do that role and I think the next cycle is about finding players who can do approximations or ideally better versions of what pochettino has asked this team to do what he needs his team to do so that come the Copa America come the next world cup there are two or three two or three players who can do the quote unquote like Tyler Adams role or we have two centerbacks who are both fast and can play like with the ball their feet but if we don't this guy's really good with this feet this guy's a really good defensive organizer we can pair them together I think it's about knowing the pool knowing the ingredients and knowing how to combine them and then knowing that you have backup options if and when the situation arises that's what I feel like the next year or two can be for the US can I make a general point about the next year or two what we know about what exactly this team's going to be doing on the field so we mentioned four friendlies which have been booked in for the September and October windows they are for clarity against Peru and Chile in September and then we've got Mexico and Canada in October all at home at all all on US territory there then we've got a potentially a 2028 Copa America in which we don't have a host confirmed I don't know if we've got a format confirmed at this point we've got World Cup qualification in which we don't know what the format's going to be could it feels likely it's going to be a 64 team competition at this point that could change the dynamic of qualifications somewhat obviously there are other competitions at hand that we've mentioned as well but it feels like there's a slightly unclear path as to what this team's going to be doing over its next few years for sure and also Joe they are is there any concern about those four friendlies all being at home because I feel like do you not need a bit of a road travel as well when Taylor when Taylor mentioned earlier in the episode the Copa America and not to dig dig you out Taylor because I think this is conventional wisdom it's how I how I would have previously thought but like I think you may be worried it like hopefully on home soil and I thought to myself actually a Copa America and like Brazil and Argentina would be would be tremendous I mean it's one civically so we could get you to Orlando okay right okay I mean I already I've already priced up the pro game for September I'm not even kidding so no I would much prefer it be in South America I think that was so useful to the US in 1995 to kind of go on the road have that as like a proving ground playing away having kind of a backs against the wall nobody believes in us competition is so critical versus the comfort of home understanding kind of like everything about the country everything about the system in which you are operating I think being thrown into some discomfort is probably a good idea for that team because it does largely prepare them for work up qualifying so yeah I'm good with that Copa America on the road let's make it happen friendlies on the road are are always a more challenging animal I think especially with is it nation's league UEFA nation's league qualifying is happening to find games yeah you don't have any sort of European nations available for friendlies so then you're talking about road games in South America and Central America and generally speaking those countries would rather play here where they're going to get a huge percentage of a higher ticket price so I think and like can demand larger fees to go on the road and play those games so I would hope the US does take the opportunity to play friendlies on the road I think it's just hard to find opposition where that would be necessarily a useful thing for how the US wants to play don't don't worry guys U.S. Mexico and Glendale well it'll be a road pretty much the same yeah yeah yeah I suppose my general point is like the road ahead for this team they can be able to good intentions as well but we don't actually know what kind of games yeah it's going to be playing over the next couple of years that is that it's a weird spot right I suppose soccer never staying the same makes it impossible to know what these cycles are going to look like I'd imagine U.S. soccer is a pretty darn good idea of of what their next four years are going to look like if I had to guess and this is totally speculation I would guess that the U.S. is in the Copa America and that qualifying is going to be quite easy because it'll be a 64 team yeah I'm just looking through the U.S. M&T's results from 2020 to to current day to present day the last friendly match the U.S. played on foreign soil was the then the mid was mixed I guess wrong oh that's right that's right in October 24 the last game some less unless this is this is incorrect the last game the U.S. played on foreign soil period was in November 2024 so it's going to be over two years by the time the U.S. plays too odd that's kind of nuts yeah it wouldn't make sense though right because you're playing at home build anticipation at home I the reason I said the Japan game I don't know if you guys remember in the window I think it was the window before the 2022 World Cup the U.S. played a couple of of overseas friendlies or or at least I remember Japan I can't remember if there was another game involved in that window I feel like there must have been but there there will be games away from home like there's there's no doubt about that but how many of them and when they come and how important that is yeah that means no question I mean it makes sense that when you when you break it down it's logical but yeah you're right George the U.S. played Japan in Germany in September 2022 and they played Saudi Arabia in Spain in that same window since then the U.S. has played one friendly match on foreign soil in four years let's go let's go to the home world cup right yeah it makes sense when you break it down it's still when you see it like that it's kind of insane but yeah yeah okay one more quick break from us guys when we come back we'll talk a bit more about this cycle and how this team might change playing style and otherwise in the next few years do join us then total soccer show welcome back to us mnt weekly hey Taylor is a how how we're feeling about potches playing style I think a lot through the build up to the world cup were concerned we weren't seeing or maybe not concerned but we we observed we weren't seeing a vintage potch style from this team how do we think the style and the evolution of the playing start of this team is going to evolve as the players get more used to him as he gets more reps as a national team manager where do we think he can improve what are we feeling about the way this team is going to shape up yet not getting summed by Belgium that would be it would be a lot of improvement I think that's probably the place to start back I mean like it is we've talked about it at length I will just mention it briefly like it's worth noting the US were very impressive at the world cup until they suddenly were not and so like it's easy to remember just how bad that Belgium game was and we should because it was but then in that group stage maybe not against Turkey but then in the knockout run as well against Bosnia like it was impressive performances and it was it was a combination of impressive like fight and spirit combined with technical ability and good chance creation and so I want to see the US just continue to refine that but then also just add new looks as they go like because they are going to have to play teams that are going to be much more bunkered much less open when they go through work up qualifying and like Australia showed a good example of how the US can find a way through but if they want to get better if they want to continue to be or if they want to start being seen as more of a powerhouse like that tends to correlate with teams being more defensive and more bunkered against you so how do you deal with opposition that is playing that way I think that's going to be a thing that we would love to see the United States find new and better solutions and more effective solutions at that and then I think it's stabilizing the pool and adding more depth behind it in terms of the way they actually play though like I didn't have as many qualms with the overall structure I think the one area and Joe said it earlier like the one area I might nitpick with a little bit is the Christian Pulisic of it all because this was not a good tournament for him and maybe there are reasons for that that relate to injuries I don't really know but I just feel like we haven't seen Christian Pulisic at his prime outside of like a few months from Milan to start last season I feel like it's been a while since we saw him like truly in like swashbuckling confident form and that's the thing that I increasingly don't know if that is like I think we're going to see consistently enough that he kind of rises back to where we thought he might be in terms of the pool versus maybe there are other players who can challenge or do that role better and I think to have one or two players in the attack that we are always going to have and always going to utilize if they're fit it makes sense if those players can play at that level and can truly elevate the team I don't know if that's Pulisic I don't know if he is good enough to be in every game starter or to be written in ink again to use that phrasing like that's an area where I would love to see the US just try more combinations try more options see what works kind of throws some things at the wall and see what sticks and more importantly see what doesn't and keep building out the attack and different attacking options and patterns yeah I do think Christian Pulisic has a point to prove coming out of this world copy clearly don't have the tournament that any of us had wished for before the start of the tournament and injury was a big part of that right he misses like two and a half games just through not being able to play um but I think we saw a transition at this world cup where that core group that had been in place for a number of years which included first and foremost Christian Pulisic can a transition into a group that I would now say is like Balagin, Tillman, Chris Richards there was like there was like a different sort of core that emerged and that's not to say that these players weren't important before the tournament just kind of crystallized how important they are so I think I think Christian Pulisic has is has has like a point to prove I think in terms of the playing style it's going to be a case of evolution rather than revolution right I think things came together pretty well at the world cup if you look at the games against Paraguay and Australia and Bosnia and possibly even the the turkey game and accounting for the the rotation that obviously happened there that's a sort of soccer the US should be aiming to play over the next four years that's pochettino ball for all the discussion of whether he is imposing himself on this team whether we're seeing pochettino ball at the world cup I thought that's exactly what we got in terms of the the principles when he gets through to his players this is this is the way that they play so I don't expect poch to throw all that out and start again on something completely no completely new I think to repeat the point I think we've all made on this show it's going to be about finding personnel who can execute things a little bit a little bit better I'm not even sure we'll see a whole lot in terms of trying any new tactical shapes yes there will be tweaks here in there sure but the the platform is there now and that's one of the benefits of bringing him back is you don't have to go through that process and under someone new so I think it's going to be evolution yeah the things maybe that I'm most interested in in terms of evolution grim because I completely agree are what happens on the right side when desks is no longer the default rights added attacker and I do think that will happen throughout this cycle I think there will be other options that overtake him there so how does that change the dynamic that I think worked really well in the macro at the world cup that that was mentioned already the Freeman mechanic desks dynamic I think was so influential to how the US approach games even if desks wasn't an individual star within that structure how does that change as the personnel changes because they think it will change and then how does the midfield shift as maybe Adams isn't is no longer an every minute player and that that might not be true for 2027 or 2028 but it might be true by 2030 you know with Adrien Mehmeti potentially an option there and again we're we're looking a little bit far down the road and things murky the further into the future you try to peer but like how can Malik toman reprise his role without a truly elite ground covering player next to him can he be a double pivot player can he be really can the US play with a single pivot at times with Tillman roaming a little bit higher a field when it's not Adams I don't know I think probably not is the answer to that question does you know Spusa work his way back in where does 10 attestment fit into all this is he good enough to really factor into this equation those sort of the questions I think between midfield and the right side that really stand out to me I will say just one thing in response to tell your your mentioned about Christian policy I feel like policy continues to be a little bit of a victim of the fact that he is the face of this team when it comes to his performance being scrutinized and other players who also didn't show up in the moment mattered most and those players not really being scrutinized nearly as much basically every US player on the field outside of Balagin against Belgium had had and maybe Jirena on a stand the second half had nothing to to do other than hang their heads because they were abysmal in that game and I understand that policy wasn't a real factor in a huge chunk of the rest of the tournament but the dude was injured on the side the whole time I think it is going to be a little while before the US has a player that is better on the left wing in the Christian policy and I don't really think that players going to pop up in this cycle it would be great if I'm wrong about that because for the US M&T anyway that would mean that maybe Matisse Albert has as found something or somebody else has emerged or whatever it is but I don't really think that player is is like biting on his heels to be honest when you look at the pool itself and the own players coming through and even if they were I think it's going to be darn hard for anyone to overtake policy in that spot maybe I'll be wrong and maybe policy doesn't start the first game in 2030 but I I think he's still a really useful player for this US team I think he's still one of their best players maybe Balagin is is the one that is sort of leaped into that spot where he is the man I think that's great that's a good thing for the US but I think policy is still going to play a huge role and it's it's still had several moments even ahead of the World Cup and at the World Cup where he was the best US player on the field you clear it's not that I don't think he's not going to play a role or even a huge role it's that I don't think he wants to be the face of this team I think that's a role that he was like thrust into and I don't think that's where he's particularly comfortable it reminds me a bit of Landon Donovan when he was with the US and how he like tended it seems to be a little bit more introverted a little bit more quiet until behind closed doors where I think he was more of a leader I'm still not sure if that is Pulisic I don't think I've ever heard anybody talk about Pulisic the leader I think I've heard them talk about him as a player as an individual as a friend even because a lot of them have known him for a very long time but as a leader I think other players have kind of like risen ahead of him I think McKinney is on that list talking to Jeff yesterday it sounds like Mark McKinsey even is more of a leader in this team Tim Reem certainly Tyler Adams obviously so I think that's more so what I mean is that it seems like a lot of people correctly incorrectly kind of hung all their hopes on Pulisic and thought that's our guy that's our you know marquee star player who can be the difference maker when the time comes and I'm not sure that's really what he wants to be I think he wants to be like a very good role player a very good team player who can elevate on the day but isn't the person we're looking to every single time we need something to happen I think anytime a team is doing that and they're not going through a world-class one-of-one player I don't know how well that's going to work for them and I felt the U.S. at times is so reliant on the individual it sometimes doesn't focus on the fact that the team itself can be quite good if given enough training and preparation okay let's finish up today shall we with a look at interesting transfer to actually as we record anti-robinson is trending with whispers of Manchester United but there's another player who might be Premier League bound that we should have a chat about that's them trying to get Lewis Hall for cheaper yeah yeah yeah yeah he said he's an option he's an option let's let's not roll it out uh Xavier Gozo Taylor potentially going to Crystal Palace from real sort like it may even have been confirmed by the time this episode goes out looking at around 15 million dollars according to ESPN and Tommy's Tommy Scoops and a few others a player who's gonna be heading to Europe it seems and that's a good thing I that is a good thing in that exact intonation because I have a question for Graham about that I don't think of the Premier League as the best place for young players to go to develop unless they are coming in kind of already as marquee signings or already going into a team with the expectation they're gonna get a lot of minutes because the Premier League is so competitive and there is so much money on offer that teams can kind of to some extent throw money around in a way that other leagues and teams cannot and if that works great and if it doesn't well we'll buy another wing or or two for 10 to 15 million and see what happens so the Premier League generally is not a league that I love for the development of players however Crystal Palace I do think has been a club that has been really good with their talent identification and development and I mean that goes back to like Wilfred Zaha but as a is another example of that there's plenty more like young very exciting attackers who have come through Crystal Palace and then either become key performers for the club or been sold on for good chunks of money there's a certain man of iron Munich who I think comes to mind with that one but then I wonder like how much of that is Oliver Glasner and that's my question for Graham how much of like what Palace has done recently is because of Glasner who is no longer there versus how much of it do you think is like the structure of the club itself I honestly think Glasner has almost no role to play in the or had almost no role to play in the recruitment of Crystal Palace I think this is something that stretches beyond his tenure previously Crystal Palace had a sporting director called Dougie Friedman who was highly rated as one of the best sporting directors in the Premier League and by all accounts it seems like he's left behind a structure that continues to sustain Crystal Palace to this day I think he left like 18 months ago and since then Crystal Palace have I mean they're they're one of the best at this and in the Premier League they kind of fly onto the radar it feels like Brighton and Bournemouth and maybe even Brentford get their flowers more readily than Crystal Palace but look at the transfer business that Crystal Palace have done in the last few years yes you've got the big headline stars like Eze and Alisa being being moved on after being brought in from lower leagues in England but people like Adam Warton even someone like Asmila Sarr as the as a replacement for I guess that was a replacement for Alisa and he's he's been brilliant for them Jeremy Pino has been excellent for them as well Matetta like they they continually managed to find players that and they're they're able to develop and so with that in mind I like this move a lot I think Crystal Palace is a good level for Gozo to make the next step too he'd also been liked with Athletic Madrid and Asenville as good as he is he would have been a developmental player for them whereas for Palace they're surely signing him to play real minutes immediately I do believe that he's going to be in the first team pitcher this season in the Premier League it should be mentioned though there is a bit of uncertainty around Palace at the moment with obviously Oliver Glazner leaving at the end of the of last season Pierre Saj or Sage the longest manager from last season has has has come into to that club their preseason games suggest so far that he's going to use a similar system which is broadly a back three with wing backs which makes me wonder what role Gozo has been signed to play is he going to be a right wingback because that role for Palace basically is a a winger it's very advanced very very high and wide the problem is that Crystal Palace have Daniel Munoz to play that position and he's such a specialist I don't know if dislodging him from that role is going to be realistic at least immediately or as Gozo going to be one of the more kind of two advanced players around Mateta as the focal point he might be better suited there obviously for RSL he's been playing that or he has played that wingback role as a bit of a compromise but that means he'll have to dislodge Saurar Jeremy Pino so he he is he's going to have a battle for really consistent minutes but I do think Palace will have a plan to develop him and make him a a key player before too long so if this gets made official I do quite like it cool Joe excited for this one I am yeah I share some of Taylor's trepidation about the Premier League being a spot for us players to develop what I will say is Gozo is a better prospect than just about anybody who's gone there right at least at least in recent memory right he you have to be good like you have to be really good to be able to go and make it and I think Gozo has a legitimate chance to be that I'm really bullish on what he can be for the US I'm pretty bullish on what it's club club career can look like as well he's basically the only player in the US pool or on the fringes of it anyway that it has both the athleticism and the technical ability to go one-by-one with opposing fullbacks somewhat reliably and actually beat them around the edge and get to the end line and play a cut back or cut inside and create goal threat he's just a totally different profile than the US has and young wingers of his profile are often the most expensive players on the planet so I think Palace of the Premier League destinations is a pretty darn good one for him he won't start right away like it's going to take some time for him to bet in and really show that he should be earning consistent minutes whatever that looks like but I am I'm really high on Gozo as a player and so I think there are reasons to believe that he can succeed at Palace and in a way that we haven't seen many other young US players go to that level and actually succeed ever exciting times very good Taylor I didn't find awards for we close this bad boy up he's muted we almost had him we almost had Taylor to close the sound I was I was trying to mute myself while I dropped more cans off Mike I was trying to remember how many Americans have played for Crystal Palace and I think there's only three two recently and then goes I go first Christmas is one one point one point for me or been employed by Crystal Palace Matt Turner oh no on there wow and then a weird one we mentioned a family member of his on this episode if that gives you any hint gladiorena he didn't play for them that are you Sunderland Greg Berholtter 19 appearances for Crystal Palace in the 2001-2002 season did not remember that at all thank you Google for informing me accordingly hey but I think Biduki Freibin then that's fine I do think also having Richards there though is he's a really really positive thing because like let's we forget Richards when he comes through starts off like getting very limited minutes and then he's getting 30 minute cameos or a sub here or he's playing in a specific role when they're in a back three then he's one of the centerbacks but if they're in a back four then he doesn't play but then he becomes more consistent starter then he becomes an every game starter and to have like a fellow countryman in that club who has been through that process I think is a really good thing for a young American to then have somebody who can say hey yeah you know you're frustrated you didn't get minutes here keep working that's how I was you got to get here you got to do this you got to play that way you got to be kind of like in with the manager and I think just can kind of have a mentor figure there who is established for both club and country I think that could be another key factor in goes of having success at palace which I think you will love to hear it there we go I think that concludes usmnt weekly Taylor Rocker once again thank you very much for your expertise and guidance here we appreciate you the pleasure was mine my friend thank you thank you kindly to Graham Rutherford thank you rain billy and thank you very much returning champion Joseph Lowry hey thanks rain listen thank you very much for joining us on this one we appreciate you we'll be back on the feed very shortly indeed but for now bye you