Mourinho's Bernabéu Paradox: Structural Bloat, Tactical Anarchy, and Europe's Shift

Hello and welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Emma Payton. Rayal Madrid's two-one victory over Inter in their opening Champions League fixture was far from convincing. Today we'll be getting into Jose Marino's return to the Spanish capital and with familiar problems to last season, whether he's the man to bring silverware back to the Bernabéu. Alongside me, in the studio we have Liam Toomey and Tomas Hill, Lopez Mancherup, how are we guys? How good was it to have Champions League football back? Yeah, it was nice. It was nice to hear that music again. Have the pomp and circumstance and some big match-ups. Yes. Which I don't mind seeing at this stage. No, it's nice to have them dotted around if it feels a bit super leaky if they're too common, but to have one or two punctuation points, I think, Rayal Inter is a nice way to kick things off. Yeah, a nice kind of amuse-bush, but that World Cup come down is definitely real, isn't it? But I think the Champions League brings it back up again, it's this big tournament, definitely the pinnacle of European football. Love those kind of different country match-ups, so yeah, very positive. Were we sort of flitting between different matches last night? No, Rayal Inter. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. When I watch a game, I watch a game. You really watch it, okay? All right. Well, let's start there, then, shall we, because watching Real Madrid's victory at the Bernabéu was the athletics Guillermo Ray, so let's check in on how the result against Inter leaves the mood in the Spanish capital. Hello, guys. Here from the Bernabéu, Real Madrid, half just one by two-one, but it had to suffer a lot with Maurinho. Absolutely furious in his first Champions League games, he's returning to the club. He said that it was a crazy game, and it was, indeed, Madrid never really controlled it. Friend, Alexander Amner played in midfield, and it was a big surprise, a big talking point, and he was actually booted by the fans in the second half, so they weren't happy at all. The forwards at Madrid made the difference, Guillermo and Bapéan played the Bernabéu squad before the half-time, and it was key. Madrid couldn't control the game after the break, the game became frantic with dozens of chances at both ends, even Judd Bellingham missing two big, big chances, and towards the end, the Madrid forwards had nothing left to press or track back, which drove Maurinho crazy. He made changes, he geled at them three times after the Inter's goal, they only go from Inter, likely, because Courtois was also key, again, another night when the Belgian is key for Real, so difficult night for them, but still three points in Maurinho's debut. Yeah, big thanks to Guillermo for that, and Thomas, I feel like he summed up quite well because it was a crazy game, it was a really strange game in many ways, and you look at Real Madrid at the moment, it feels like vibes over there have been largely positive until that defeat in the lead to Real Betis over the weekend, and then you look at last night, and they won, but it wasn't convincing, has it got them back on track, or where are we at? Yeah, it's hard to tell, isn't it, because obviously getting the win in your opening Champions League game always going to be welcomed at the Bernabéu, we know that the Champions League is the absolute pinnacle for Real Madrid, that is the trophy they measured themselves on, and yet, you know, being whistled at 2-0-0, which is what happened, I doubt there's many clubs around the world where that would happen, Madrid fans famously demanding, I think those whistles probably were because the team weren't playing as they expected, they've had this huge summer transfer out there, I think, 240 million euros around that, and still they're not quite jelling, they're still not this kind of holding midfield presence that can help them control games, still having to be bailed out by a Bappé and Courtois, and so it's kind of more the same as last season, even if they did win, but I would caveat not by saying no fans are more demanding than Madrid, and they still won their opening game, so maybe that's all they can'ts. What was your assessment of it, because didn't defend particularly well, and it felt like there was a real lack of organisation at times? Yeah, it was pretty startling just how comfortable interlooked on the ball from the very start of the game. Christian Kivu had obviously set them up to play very expansively, and they just controlled things in midfield, and Madrid were kind of survival modes a bit strong, but they were certainly scrambling for long stretches of that kind of first 20-25 minutes, and then just two incredible mistakes defensively from, well, Curtis Jones had a hand in the first goal, ultimately the era from Bissec, and then of course Martinez, the goalkeeper, two horrible moments for inter, and that kind of sucked the wind out of them really for a little while, and Real Madrid got confidence from that, but they didn't seem to get a higher level of play or control out of it, and I think as harsh as it is to bootrend Alexander Arnold, I think it's more indicative of a bigger issue that Real Madrid have. Watching the last night, I wondered how consequential we're going to remember Roger's decision to choose Barcelona over Real Madrid, because that is what they're missing, that order in the middle of the pitch, someone to direct play, to win the ball back, to screen off angles to protect that defence, and it feels like now Madrid have got all these resources in these incredible forwards who can win any game, and they've got pretty good defenders, maybe not on the level of a Sergio Ramos or some of the greats of the recent past, but in the middle, they just don't have anything on the level of Madrid's Cruz Casmiro, that unit that really powered that Champions League success of the 2010s. Yeah, I think it's that debate as well, isn't it? Would they have been better selling Benicio's to Arsenal in the summer, signing Roderie? I don't know, I think a lot of Madrid fans prioritised that excitement, that excitement in four areas, but they're now left with, yeah, seven forwards for effectively three positions up front, which just doesn't seem sustainable, Benicio's also whistled last night. I think perhaps I'm fairly, because he was doing a fair bit of defensive work, but clearly that's not why you renew Benicio's on a big contract, you want those big moments in the Champions League, this is a competition which he usually does so well in, and we're still yet to see the best of him this season, really. It was quite amazing to see Yandy and Andy, given the price they paid for and reduced to the role of fresh legs in the last 15 to 20 minutes, given what everyone in football, or what a lot of top clubs seem to think he can be as a winger. Does he even have a clear role in this strongest Real Madrid 11, because you look at Venicious, you look at Mbappe, not the biggest workers off the ball, so maybe you have someone like Brahimdi as there for a bit more balance and a bit more midfield presence. But then where does, where does the amounted play so that it feels like there's still a fundamental balance issue that Marinho has to try and resolve. Well, are you setting your very first answer that they haven't jailed yet? I don't know, you're not really afforded time with the Real Madrid fans, but I mean, is this a bit of a work in progress still? Yeah, I think it is. And I think with Marinho as well, even though you're looking at this big summer transfer spend, that's a big overhaul as well, like a lot of those defenders, I'm trying to think, but I think at least three of the, yeah, three of the back four last night, the starting back four, we knew this summer, that's going to take time. As Liam says, without that kind of organizing midfield presence as well, I think that becomes more difficult. So he's looking to some of those more experienced players, more experienced Madrid players who've been there a while. Like, well, whether they're to really tie it all together, Mbappe and Corto are clearly going to be huge. But yeah, how many times have we said that over the last few seasons that Mbappe and Corto have failed Madrid out? So it's a slightly worrying start on the one hand, but obviously we're only a few games in. I think some, some patients is needed. All eyes will be on Madrid because of Marinho and we'll be all waiting to see him kind of failing in some ways, right? But yeah, it will be interesting to see what he, what he does from here, but clearly he's got a lot of headaches in quite a few areas to sort out. Does everything always feel on this knife edge with Jose Marinho? Well, it does and with Real Madrid. It's like the perfect soap opera combination. Yeah, it feels like maybe that's partly why Real Madrid were drawn in extrably back to Marinho at a time when it felt like he was honestly in his kind of decline phase of his career. This is an incredible chance for him to reestablish himself in the elite tier of management. So there's a lot riding on this going well for him. And I think you'd have to say that judging on the last couple of years of Champions League, football, how you're playing at this point in time is not necessarily an indicator of whether you can win the whole competition. I mean, just look at PSG's arc over the last two years. It's how you're playing in February, March, whether you're hitting your stride then, there's a transfer window between now and then as well that Madrid could maybe use to rebalance some things, but it's clear that they and Marinho have some real work to do. Well, the athletics pulled by use has written about Anthony Gordon's stunning start to life at Barcelona, who have won their opening four LaLiga games by an aggregate score of 15-2. So is there still a feeling between these two sides that there's a gap to close here? Yeah, I think there's a massive gap. And honestly, the only illustration you need of it is Anthony Gordon's back heeled assist for Arafina that a couple of weeks ago at the end of last month because I think that shows everything like this and that's a new signing coming in and he's still feeling so comfortable that he can do that and it's and it's working that the balance in that team is great. Arafina has been an incredible scoring form so far this season after, you know, perhaps, and at times up and down season last year. And so yeah, but Barcelona kind of streaked ahead in Madrid when it comes to like the the actual makeup of the team. Do they have the defense that's needed to go all the way in the Champions League? I'm still not sure. I think that's still something that could come back to haunt them in the latter stages, but definitely in La Liga for now, it does seem that we might see that kind of three-piece of La Liga titles, which I think would be first time since Pep Guardiola. If Barcelona were to do it under Hansi Flick and you know that wouldn't go down well in the Spanish capital. I mean, Inter, of course, that the last side that Jose Mirenio won that the Champions League with back in 2010. Do you believe that he can do it again with Real Madrid? He absolutely can because you look at the level of talent that Real Madrid have, that baseline always gives you a chance. Real Madrid are like the ultimate punches chance team, even when they play against teams that you think are better coached, teams that are maybe better organized, teams that have maybe the ability to control possession more. They always have this ability to win the ball high up the pitch or to pounce on any kind of mistake and punish you with a degree of efficiency that no one else can match because they have him, Bappe. They have finished just, they have belling him. They have these outstanding individuals that are empowered to solve games in the final third and they do that. And at the other end, you've got Tibo Courtois who can save you. And I think he was involved a lot more than Real Madrid would like him to be involved against Inter, but he can pull off seven, eight saves in a game. And those margins matter, certainly a knockout football, but I think to get, that can probably get you to a semi-final, maybe even to a final of things break right. But we've seen in the last couple of years, PSG's level of control from back to front through midfield as well, just gives them another gear that maybe Real Madrid don't have right now. Yeah, agree with that. Yeah, I think so. I mean, PSG also haven't had the best start to the season I'd say, but you're absolutely right, and I think like PSG as well have that thing of in every position, they look stacked and have those players that actually properly control the game. In Madrid's case, it's just a bit lopsided at the moment, isn't it? It feels like it's all in attack. Defends okay, they brought in Cucurea, Canato, Dumfries, but that's still a bit shaky. And then midfield, as we've said, is still a problem position. So yeah, I do think Madrid probably lack that, that kind of control across all areas of the pitch right now. Now, the short list for the men's ball on door was released yesterday, Kylian and Bappé and Luminiumal are amongst the contenders, but Harry Kane is currently the favourite to win the award. I mean, just three Englishmen have won the award previously in Stanley Matthews, Kevin Keegan and Michael Owen. This would be huge, if Harry Kane won it. It would be massive for English football. I think it would be massive for Harry Kane's legacy. Obviously, the first one since Owen, but more similar to Keegan, in that he's gone to Germany in order to take his game to a new level and maybe gain that level of global appreciation that he didn't have when he was at Tottenham. I mean, he's had the kind of season that is a ball on door type season at Bayern. His numbers were crazy. He went to the World Cup and I know it kind of pitted out out for him and Bellingham became more of the man for England in the knockout stage, but he was a really important part of that team throughout, had some kind of flashball moments certainly against a DR Congo with his heroics there. So, yeah, he's had the kind of season where he should absolutely be an inner circle contender, especially when you consider this is not the messy Ronaldo era anymore. It is more open. There will be probably five, six names that people are arguing about. Are we surprised there hasn't been an English winner since 2001? I guess, I mean, even that win right was a little bit of a surprise at the time, but I would say if you take out the 13 years in a row, whatever it was, the messy Ronaldo were trading the award, probably not too much of a surprise. I was looking through the previous kind of top threes and I think Bellingham came third in 2024, which we obviously will remember for Rogerian and Venice is his kind of spout or mainly Madrid's spout. So, perhaps he was maybe a bit unlucky there because that was that amazing W season with Madrid. He wins the Champions League, La Liga, but you could also say that the Premier League hasn't exactly until maybe 10 years ago, been the kind of technical pinnacle of European football. Maybe it's that as well. I sort of feel those awards prioritise technical excellence and until maybe 10 years ago or until Guadilla really arrived, maybe you didn't get that kind of like technically excellent English player in the same way that you do now with, you know, when he was at City, his, his city sides and other teams in the Premier League too. So, not so surprised, but, yeah, I mean, Kane, Kane would be a worthy winner, I think, this year. I feel like this is the best opportunity for an English player to win it for some time. Yeah, for quite a while. I mean, I think Bellingham will continue to have chances. He's on the list, isn't he? Yeah, the biggest problem he might have is that he won't necessarily be the biggest star in his own team ever. And it's quite hard to win a ball on door. This is famously part the reason why name my left Barcelona to try and get himself a stage that he could try on. So maybe that will come, come into it for Bellingham. There are players in the Premier League, English players in the Premier League, you know, I cover Cole Palmer on a weekly basis, who was in the ball on door reckoning only a year ago, maybe not top tier, but he was on the list. And I think he can get back there this year now that he's fit again. He has another level or two to go to actually be a genuine contender. But, you know, England have other players like Bakaia Saka, the part of the problem I think in the Premier League is that it's been a system league, a coach league for quite a few years now. And it maybe hasn't foregrounded individual superstars in quite the same way that you get at Real Madrid at Barcelona, PhD or Bayern. Yeah, no, I agree with that. Now, the athletics and antijith that Ragnaraman has given his own top 10 ranking to take the award. Harry Kane tops the list. His Bayern Munich teammate, Michael Elise, is in second and their World Cup winner, Roderie, is in third. We've spoken about this at length because we were doing the podcast during the summer through the World Cup. You were ranking the top 50 players during the World Cup. It is so hard, right, to do this ranking. Yeah. Like whatever category it is, it is and whatever you choose, people will disagree with because there is no consensus. I mean, you're talking to the man who refused to put Roderie number one after Spain won the World Cup just because that was such a collective achievement that is amazing as Roderie is as an individual player. It's always hard to place exactly his individual contribution to that relative to a more conventional attacker when he's all about goals assists that win games. But he's certainly in contention again, it all depends how much you weight the World Cup and the ballon doors always more interesting in a year where you have a major tournament, a major tournament, particularly a World Cup because the voting panel do seem to put a disproportionate, well, maybe proportionate amount of emphasis on who wins it, who plays well. That's how Fabio Canavaro won in 2006, isn't it? So yeah, I think it adds a really good new dynamic to it, the fact that we had such different teams winning the Champions League and the World Cup. So who makes your top three then? Yeah, I was torn on this because I agree with Liam. I think there is something a bit strange in awarding an individual award in such a collective sport, right? But I think you've still probably got to go off the collective successes. I'm really reluctant to give it to a player who hasn't won silverware with their club or country. So top, I would probably have future career earlier. I just think such a key part of that PSG team still think the Champions League is the absolute best and the marker of the best players. I think he scored the most joint most goals for them, joint most assists for them in the Champions League. So I think I'd have him top, Kane second, just because like the numbers are incredible, you can't you can't argue with that and probably edging out and back pay for that second sport or at least I'd have him second over and back pay because of having won that that Bundesliga title and got so close in the Champions League. And then third, I'm going to say Fabian Ruiz, which I know is maybe a surprise, but won the Champions League, won the World Cup, gets awarded his weight in tomatoes from his hometown in Spain, whenever he wins an international trophy. So I think he deserves it, you know, a more proper award than that. It's a fun side to say, Roderie's not even the most influential midfielder in that state team. Quarrett Scalier's a tricky one, because he can't really penalise him for not being at the World Cup and he was sensational in the Champions League. So I think he's still in the top three. I would probably go Roderie in the top three over Ruiz, but I'd certainly take that argument, I think it's very well made. And then yeah, probably Kane, probably Kane this year, I think it would be a good story. I think he was genuinely brilliant for by not just in the Bundesliga, which is a people question how much those numbers really mean, but he was brilliant in the Champions League as well, played non-stop football from the club World Cup last year and was very good for England as a leader as well as a goal-store. Who is someone that won't win it, but you would love to see winner? Well, I think someone from your list. Yeah, I mean, I think from that PSG team, I do feel Nuno Mendes probably still doesn't get the credit he deserves from left back. I think from memory, no left back is ever won the ball on door, and it's kind of hard to see that changing, but he's maybe the closest you could get just in the sense that he does provide those goals assists. He's such a key part of how they play. So yeah, I'll tell him. Are we talking about who we'd like to see winner ball on door full stop or this year? What do you think? Okay. I mean, this year I think Ferret Scalia would be a very popular winner, because he's just one of the best players to watch in Europe, if not the best, and such an unconventional type of winger. Long term, I'd love to see a player like, well, a Cole Palmer or a Ryan Cherokee or someone like that who's just an individual magician, because I think we are in the age of highly systematized football, which at times can be too choreographed, too mechanical, too collective. And the end of the day, I think we still watch football for the amazing individuals and the players who can see possibilities that no one else can. And so I think a player like that when in the ball on door would be a really nice symbol that those two schools continue to co-exist. Ryan Cherokee just needs to needs to be in the starting 11. He does. He does. Yeah, in France, doesn't he? Well, James Horncastle, Jack Pitbrook and many other of our fantastic writers have had their say on the athletic as to who should take home the award. So make sure to go and check that out. Now Nicholas Jackson got his Aston Villa career going last night with a goal in Bruce Jacob Townswell called him the archetypal Unite Emory Striker in his match piece over on the athletic this morning. You obviously watched him a fair bit when he was at Chelsea. Do you feel like this system works for him now? Yeah, Emory is the perfect coach for him. They worked really well at VARL. That's why Emory wanted him back at Villa. And he's a perfect type of striker for a kind of transitional counter attacking counter pressing type of team. He presses brilliantly. His link up play, his hold up play, his willingness to run channels, to stretch defenses. I mean, that's where his goal comes from against brother is his ability to run in behind to chase a ball that he might not be favorite for, but also to put his body on the line, take it around the keeper and then finish. He is an erratic finisher. I've said this many times. He's capable of moments of real composure and he's also capable of missing chances that leave you scratching your head. So he may not be a player that you ever fully trust, but I think he's going to be really, really good for Villa. And there's also I think a big element with Nicholas Jackson that he's a confidence player. And he had moments at Chelsea where he really felt the love, but I don't think he felt it consistently. And I don't think he felt the environment maximised him consistently. And I think he will at Villa. Obviously they had a lot of change over the summer and it's been a really slow start in the Premier League, but was last night an indicator that they are maybe starting to get going now. Yeah, I guess in the Champions E you have that advantage as a Premier League team that you probably are more physical. You're used to a different type of football. So there's a chance that Europe provides like a bit of redemption. Maybe for Villa this season, maybe provides a bit of a nice break from the domestic fixtures. I still think having so many of those key players leaving this summer is huge for them. But Emery's obviously got this great record in Europe, at least in the Europa League, maybe not in the Champions League. And yeah, I can see this being maybe the more enjoyable part of their season to be honest. I'm not sure if that translates to the Premier League where teams are kind of wise to them and know them a bit better. But yeah, he'll obviously be hoping that this is the thing that kind of it starts this season, right? Meanwhile, Inzo Maresca was full of praise for Ayur Bawardi as detailed in Sam Lee's matchpiece over on the athletic with the midfielder announcing himself in a Manchester City show in their 2-0 victory in Porto. I mean, Roderie and Bernardo Silva's absence, of course, is going to be felt, isn't it? But then you've got Inzo Fernandez, alongside Elliot Anderson with Bawardi who he've mentioned. It's almost you looking at it now. How do you rate the midfield? Are they stronger this season? I don't know if they're stronger. I think they've probably traded those players. I mean, I say traded. They spent having many millions on Anderson and Enzo Fernandez. But they probably have you know, upgraded in the future in a sense because those players are either at the peak of their powers, probably in Enzo Fernandez's case, Anderson arriving at that. So they've probably done the sensible thing. Sounds mad when it's that much money involved in kind of future proofing their midfield. That's what I'd say they've done. I don't know if they can be better than Roderie and Bernardo Silva because those players were just so integral to them for so many years and such a big part of how they played. But probably for this next year or a Premier League football, they've done the right thing in bringing these players in. Yeah, I think we're all looking forward to seeing Ia Bawardi as well off the back of the World Cup that you had. Yeah, he's a really intriguing player. He's developed. He looks like a man at 18. He's incredibly cool passing, but he can carry it through and around pressure. Yeah, really, really. It wasn't a shock to see so many big clubs interested in him at that price point and to see City end up paying for him what they did given what other midfielders traded for last summer. It was clearly the point of emphasis for City midfield. You need to replace Roderie about 300 million, probably just about I'd say. They've got now three midfielders who have different skill sets but slightly overlapping in a good way, I think. You've got Anderson and Bawardi who can operate a bit deeper and maybe protect Enzo Fernandez a little bit in a way that he wouldn't have been in that Chelsea system where he would have been in a midfield to lots of space to cover. That's not really the way Maresca teams play. He'll keep the spaces small. They will be quite slow in their buildup and very patient, which obviously the players who are still at City will be very familiar with from Pep Guardiola and it will allow Fernandez to do more of his creation in the final third. I think they've got the potential for a very good balance between those three players. Question is where does Cherky fit in and where does some of the other players that they have? To say, Maresca has the luxury of options is an understatement. Very much so. And obviously you watch Enzo Fernandez so much at Chelsea. Now you've got a bit of a glimpse of him in a Manchester City shirt. Do you expect him to thrive there? Yeah, I think he does have a better ecosystem in terms of his teammates in terms of the system. He clearly adores Enzo Maresca like this guy fought to get to Manchester City to play for him again. Maresca I think lobbied at City to get Fernandez there for the price that City ended up paying. So I think that bond is really, really strong and yeah, he's got Erling Harlan to aim for. How much can really go wrong when you look up and you've got that guy running ahead of you? Yeah. Arsenal Liverpool Barcelona and last season's winners, Paris Saint-Germain, get their Champions League campaigns underway this evening. Anyone in particular, you're really looking forward to seeing. Yeah, it will be interesting to see how Arsenal react to that disappointment at the very end of last season, but such a positive campaign in so many other ways. I guess a question a bit, have they strengthened enough to make another run at the Champions League this season? I think there will be in the latter stages, but whether they can go one better than they did in that final is questionable. I mean, that's a great game against Napoli, isn't it? That would be a good watch. What happened? I want to see Cuomo in the Champions League. Oh, man, yeah. Just because they get to play at that stadium by the lake against I'll be like sick. And there's also a bit of a Chelsea interest there, watching Weiss with Trevor Chalibre and now Rob Sanchez in Cuomo colours. But I just think they're a really good story. It's nice to have a genuinely new club in this competition from one of the major leagues. And they've got a chance to kind of build year on year into the type of club that can be in this competition quite regularly as they've had as well. Yeah, it's been a remarkable way. So Fabregas has done excellent work there. There's interest in his story as well as a rising coach. They play nice football. Yeah, what's not to like? Yeah, what is not so? We all need a trip to Cuomo, basically, don't we? PSG, your favourites to go the distance again, a record equaling three feet, you mentioned earlier. I think just about, but I would say buying a up there, I mean, that amazing set me final. They had last year, I think, were it not for that? You probably would be looking at, but I mean, either side that came through that, that game, I think, was going to be the favourite in the final against Arsenal. And I think companies building something really impressive there. Kane, as we've said, is going from strength to strength. So I'd still say PSG, but just above by and with, you know, coming in pretty strong too. Yeah, I think PSG deserved that benefit of the doubt. I mean, the core of their team is still very much in its prime. They have the luxury in Liga. I know they've had a slow start, but it wouldn't be their first slow start in Liga or their first slow start to the Champions League if they have a pretty pedestrian league phase. They know how to time their run. And they can also protect their key players from too many minutes so that they really hit their stride physically in the spring when they, when they absolutely need to. So I think they, they deserve to be favourites, but equally they're not so much better than the next best teams that there, there isn't interest in watching this competition. You know, Arsenal made it difficult for them in the final. Bayern had an all-time great tie against them. And I think Barcelona will be better with Roderie as well and with Gordon with signings that kind of enhance their identity. So it's going to be a fun Champions League season. How do we rate Barcelona's chances then? Yeah, I still think they, they do lack that, that defensive. It's it, obviously, it's a great system under flick in it and it's worked well. But I think that high line does expose them sometimes and I just feel, I just feel there may be still lacking in that defensive area. Although as you say, Liam, I think Roderie probably better suited to La Liga at this age now at this, at this stage of his career, maybe even better suited to the Champions League too. So probably a lot depends on how, on how he fits in, on how Gordon does as well. Gordon already in La Liga has looked just on another pace, another kind of wavelength to to anyone else, which is, which is really impressive. I think it goes to show that that Premier League experience for those, for those Spanish teams is, is crucial. I think that high line that Barcelona play under flick, I think it, it catches teams out over the course of a season because almost no one else plays that extremely. And, and by the time teams have adjusted to it in game, they're usually out of sight. But in big Champions League knockout games when you've got the very best players coming up against you, they adapt quicker and they're also better prepared by better coaching staffs and everything. And I just think Barcelona do get exposed against the very best teams by having such a predictable defensive strategy. When you know it's coming, you, you can just play those passes first time around the corner and most of these top clubs have really fast forwards that can get in behind. I remember seeing Chelsea take Barcelona apart, stand for bridge last season. And I know that wasn't maybe Barcelona at their peak, but it, you know, Chelsea weren't amazing either. They just knew how to play against it. And I think a lot of Europe's top teams do. Roger will, will help in terms of stopping attacks at source, but I still wonder if at some point, as anathema as this seems to be to Hansi Flick, whether they have to drop 10 yards in a big game in order to just get over the line. Well, we've got five English sides in the Champions League and this season. As we mentioned, her Manchester City and Aston Villa both off to winning starts away from home last night. You've talked about Arsenal already and whether they can go one better than the last season. Are they the most likely of the, the Premier League sides to really challenge the lights of PSG by a minute? Like you said, or are we looking at Manchester City again now as well? Yeah, I think, I think Arsenal are the most likely just because they have got that group of players who have been there for so long under one coach, clearly were, you know, penalty kicks away right from, from winning last time. City, I think are interesting and clearly have, have the players to, you know, to cause a lot of fear in their opponents. But honestly, I don't think, I don't think PSG are worried about any Premier League opposition. I think they've beaten those teams in the, in the last two years on route to winning the Champions League and their view is kind of, you know, we'll just play our way and, and we back ourselves to, to beat anyone. So it's probably Arsenal, but at the same time, kind of fear for any Premier League side coming up against PSG, Ralu. Arsenal? Yeah, I think Arsenal's defensive infrastructure and the way that they, the way that Arte to organises them is really well suited to knock out football where it becomes about finer margins. I think that's a key part of how they got to the final last year and I think it really wouldn't shock me if they get there again. And they were close enough, even though they were defending for almost the entire game against PSG to, to make it really, really difficult for the best team in Europe. But PSG are the best team in Europe until we see proof otherwise. Yes, a very good point. Thank you for your company this morning, guys. So you're going to Chelsea later. I am. Yeah. So you Chelsea leads, Carabell Cup action. Carabell, yeah, you'll be keeping across the Champions League while you're there. Of course. Looking forward to that then. Yeah. Should be a fun game. There's always a bit of rotation at this stage. Yeah. Anyone you're really looking forward to seeing that one, maybe we haven't seen too much of a step out. Yeah. Definitely a step out. And I think all of Stanford Bridge will be very excited to see you. Are you up to much later? Just be watching the, just be watching the game. Like I said, happily game. Probably a little boy I'd let go actually. I had a little look again and just feel like that is always fascinating and semi only at Amfield as well. What could possibly go wrong? What could possibly go wrong? Exactly. Always box office. So I'll be watching that. Yeah. Okay. Thanks as well to Guillermo for joining us earlier for his thoughts from Madrid. Thanks to you for joining us and remember to keep across the Athletic for all the latest Champions League and Ballon Door reaction. Kate Mason will be with you tomorrow. We'll catch you soon.