🎙️ The Athletic FC Podcast •August 12, 2026 •⏱️ 35 min

Mourinho and Madrid Mark II: Magic or madness?

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1. Executive Overview: Core Theses & Key Revelations

The return of José Mourinho to Real Madrid thirteen years after his departure from the Santiago Bernabéu marks one of the most unexpected, volatile, and strategically intriguing managerial appointments in modern European football. Analyzed in depth on The Athletic FC Podcast by host Adam Leventhal alongside analysts Tim Spears, Tom Harris, and Real Madrid correspondent Guillermo Rai, this second iteration of "Mourinho Mark II" represents far more than a simple nostalgia-driven reunion. It is a high-stakes convergence of presidential political survival, dressing room diplomacy, and profound tactical paradoxes that sit at the very center of elite squad construction.

The core theses established across this landmark conversation revolve around three primary structural axes:

  • The Presidential Gambit of Florentino Pérez: Following two consecutive seasons devoid of major silverware—an intolerable drought within the socio-political hierarchy of Real Madrid—Florentino Pérez faced unprecedented internal opposition, triggering a members' vote for the first time in two decades. The hiring of Mourinho is an aggressive, defensive reaction to the short-lived tenure of Xabi Alonso, whose tactical sophistication at Bayer Leverkusen failed to translate into command over an elite, high-ego locker room. By appointing Mourinho, Pérez bypasses modern positional project managers in favor of a singular, commanding enforcer capable of insulating the presidency and subduing internal volatility.
  • The Galáctico Tactical Paradox: Real Madrid possesses an extraordinary array of global offensive talent—Kylian Mbappé, Vinícius Júnior, Jude Bellingham, Yan Diakité, Bernardo Silva, Endrick, and Arda Güler, supported by attacking full-backs Trent Alexander-Arnold and Denzel Dumfries. However, this assembly presents a severe out-of-possession structural imbalance. Neither Mbappé nor Vinícius offers substantive defensive work rate, forcing former manager Carlo Ancelotti and his successors into structural compromises. Mourinho's historical trademark—defensive compactness, rigid off-ball discipline, and low-block transitions—directly collides with a squad built on individual offensive freedom.
  • The Trajectory Paradox & Counterfactual History: Mourinho's managerial career splits cleanly into two antithetical eras. Between 2000 and 2013, he achieved eight league titles, seven domestic cups, two UEFA Champions League titles, and a UEFA Cup. Over the subsequent eleven seasons, his major trophy yield collapsed to just two titles (the 2017 UEFA Europa League with Manchester United and the 2022 UEFA Conference League with AS Roma), accompanied by underwhelming domestic finishes at Roma, Fenerbahçe, and Benfica. This statistical decay is juxtaposed against key historical revelations from his Netflix documentary, notably that Sir Alex Ferguson intended Mourinho to succeed him at Manchester United in 2013—a "sliding doors" moment that might have altered the trajectory of both United and Mourinho's prime years.

Furthermore, key revelations surfaced during the discussion highlight the operational reality of this transaction. Real Madrid paid a €15 million buyout fee to release Mourinho from Benfica, where he had sustained an undefeated Portuguese top-flight league campaign (finishing third) while deploying an aggressive six-man attacking front line. Despite past public friction between Mourinho and Vinícius Júnior surrounding the Gianluca Prestiani incident, sources confirm that Vinícius has welcomed the appointment, renewing his contract and aligning with club leadership. Additionally, transfer rumors surrounding Manchester City anchor Rodri suggest a potential tactical misalignment under Mourinho's system, where rival clubs like Barcelona might offer a far more coherent positional framework.

2. Context & Background: The Landscape Leading to This Conversation

To fully comprehend the magnitude of Mourinho's return to the Spanish capital, one must contextualize the structural collapse that preceded it. Real Madrid's operational philosophy under Florentino Pérez has long rested on a delicate equilibrium between commercial star power and managerial authority. During Mourinho's initial tenure from 2010 to 2013, he served as the ultimate institutional weapon—hired specifically to break Pep Guardiola's dominant Barcelona. That era yielded a record-breaking 100-point La Liga title in 2011-12 and re-established Madrid as a dominant force in European knockout competitions, though it ultimately dissolved in intense dressing room friction and media warfare.

In the decade following Mourinho's departure, Madrid achieved unmatched continental success under Carlo Ancelotti and Zinedine Zidane. These managers succeeded not by imposing rigid positional frameworks, but by mastering dressing room harmony, managing player egos, and granting tactical autonomy to elite transitional match-winners. However, the arrival of Kylian Mbappé in the summer of 2024 fractured this delicate balance. Integrating Mbappé alongside Vinícius Júnior and Jude Bellingham created severe structural friction. Despite scoring 85 goals and collecting 86 points in La Liga last season, Madrid finished second behind Hansi Flick's clinical Barcelona machine and suffered premature exits in European competition.

Seeking a long-term tactical overhaul, Pérez initially turned to Xabi Alonso—the architect of Bayer Leverkusen's unbeaten Bundesliga title. Alonso arrived with a reputation as Europe's premier young tactician. Yet, as analyst Tim Spears emphasized on the podcast, Alonso struggled to navigate the unique expectations of the world's most demanding football club. The transition from a structured, systemic environment at Leverkusen to an ego-driven, outcome-oriented dressing room at Madrid proved overwhelming. Alonso's inability to establish authority or fix the team's off-ball vulnerabilities resulted in a turbulent single season, forcing Pérez to dismantle the project prematurely.

The institutional stakes could not have been higher. For the first time in twenty years, Pérez was forced to call a members' vote to defend his presidency. Facing an opposition candidate who captured global headlines by promising to sign Erling Haaland, Pérez required an immediate, high-impact counter-maneuver. Rather than pursuing available high-profile project coaches such as Jürgen Klopp, Mauricio Pochettino, or Didier Deschamps, Pérez retreated to his historic playbook. He triggered Mourinho's €15 million release clause at Benfica, extracting the 63-year-old manager from his thirteenth professional coaching post to restore iron discipline and institutional defiance.

Mourinho's interim stint at Benfica provided a fascinating prelude to this appointment. Although Benfica finished third in the Primeira Liga, they went undefeated throughout the entire domestic league season. Mourinho deployed an expansive, highly fluid system featuring six attacking players across the front line—a stark departure from his traditional pragmatic low-block approach. However, domestic cups and European silverware eluded him, continuing a pattern of elite domestic performance without top-tier trophy validation that has characterized his recent managerial career.

3. Deep-Dive Thematic Breakdown

3.1 The Tactical Paradox: Reconciling Off-Ball Inertia with Galáctico Firepower

The primary tactical challenge awaiting Mourinho at the Santiago Bernabéu lies in the severe structural asymmetry of Real Madrid's current squad composition. Under Ancelotti's penultimate season prior to Mbappé's arrival, Madrid operated with a fluid, highly functional front line. Vinícius Júnior and Rodrygo occupied wide channels, allowing Jude Bellingham to operate as a late-arriving central threat who exploited spaces created by horizontal stretching. This framework generated exceptional defensive balance, as wide players tracked back and midfield cover remained intact.

The insertion of Mbappé shattered this equilibrium. Both Mbappé and Vinícius Júnior prefer operating in the left-half space and central channels, and neither player contributes meaningful off-ball pressing or defensive tracking. As tactical analyst Tom Harris observed during the podcast discussion, competing against elite opposition with two forward players completely detached from out-of-possession responsibilities leaves the remaining eight outfield players hopelessly exposed. This structural defect was repeatedly exploited by Hansi Flick's Barcelona, who overran Madrid's midfield in head-to-head encounters.

To mitigate this asymmetry, Madrid's recruitment strategy has introduced high-profile additions across multiple lines, creating a fascinating tactical puzzle for Mourinho:

Position / Zone Player Profile & Capabilities Tactical Conflict / Out-of-Possession Impact
Left Attack / Central Void Kylian Mbappé & Vinícius Júnior World-class transition scoring; minimal defensive tracking creates massive wide defensive gaps.
Right Wing / Flank Cover Yan Diakité (ex-RB Leipzig) High-octane dribbler with Bundesliga-honed pressing discipline; capable of defensive tracking in a 4-4-2 block.
Attacking Full-Backs Trent Alexander-Arnold & Denzel Dumfries Elite progressive passing and aerial box threats; extreme vulnerability to counter-attacks behind them.
Midfield Engine & Control Bernardo Silva, Jude Bellingham, Arda Güler Exceptional ball retention and creative vision; forced to cover double distance to shield central defense.

The signing of Yan Diakité from RB Leipzig offers Mourinho a potential structural solution. Diakité brings intensive Red Bull-style pressing habits and physical stamina. By deploying Diakité on the right wing in a rigid 4-4-2 out-of-possession shape, Mourinho can construct an asymmetrical defensive block: Diakité drops deep to cover the right flank alongside full-backs Trent Alexander-Arnold or Denzel Dumfries, while Bellingham or Bernardo Silva shifts wide left to cover for Vinícius and Mbappé. However, against top-tier Champions League opponents, this arrangement requires immense physical sacrifice from the midfield core.

This structural reality directly informs the transfer speculation surrounding Manchester City midfielder Rodri. While rumors have linked Rodri with a high-profile move to Madrid, Tom Harris cogently argued that Rodri would be severely exposed in a Mourinho-managed setup. Rodri thrives in highly structured positional frameworks where compact team distances minimize the ground he must cover. In a direct, counter-attacking system with wide-open transitional channels, Rodri would be forced to defend vast expanses of open turf. Consequently, a team like Barcelona—operating under Flick's suffocating high press and rigid spatial control—would represent a far superior tactical environment for Rodri's specific skill set.

3.2 The Presidential Gambit: Florentino Pérez, Member Politics, and Electoral Survival

Understanding Real Madrid requires recognizing that it is not governed like an English Premier League club or a private equity portfolio. It is a member-owned institution (socio-driven) where presidential authority is absolute yet perpetually subject to political sentiment. Florentino Pérez's presidency has succeeded historically because he understands when to assert dictatorial control and when to indulge populist demand.

Pérez's hiring of Mourinho must be evaluated through the lens of electoral self-preservation. Having called a members' vote amid a two-year trophy drought, Pérez faced mounting criticism over his managerial appointments. The failure of Xabi Alonso demonstrated that appointing a cerebral, system-oriented tactician carries immense risk if that manager lacks the gravitas to command the respect of global superstars. In contrast, Pérez's most successful managerial tenures—Carlo Ancelotti and Zinedine Zidane—were defined by elite man-management, calm authority, and political insulation.

Mourinho represents the ultimate political shield for Pérez. As Tim Spears highlighted on the podcast, Mourinho is one of the few figures in world football whose personal brand and ego match or exceed the stature of Real Madrid itself. In an unruly locker room containing generational superstars, Mourinho enters as the dominant alpha figure. If the team succeeds, Pérez is vindicated for bringing back a proven winner; if the project collapses in chaos, Mourinho absorbs the media firestorm, protecting Pérez from direct socio backlash. It is a calculated, high-variance gamble designed to re-establish executive dominance.

3.3 The Trajectory Crisis: The 13-Year Paradigm Shift and Modern Managerial Decline

While the romantic narrative of Mourinho's return dominates media coverage, an objective analytical assessment of his career trajectory reveals a profound statistical breakdown over the past decade. Tim Spears presented a stark quantitative contrast on the podcast that underscores the skepticism surrounding this appointment:

  • The Golden Era (2000–2013): In his first thirteen years as a head coach across FC Porto, Chelsea, Inter Milan, and Real Madrid, Mourinho accumulated 8 domestic league titles, 7 domestic cups, 2 UEFA Champions League trophies, and 1 UEFA Cup. He averaged a major trophy every 0.65 seasons and established himself as the premier big-game tactician in world football.
  • The Modern Era (2015–2026): Over the subsequent eleven years, Mourinho's major trophy output collapsed to just 2 titles: the 2016-17 UEFA Europa League with Manchester United and the 2021-22 UEFA Conference League with AS Roma. Domestic league titles completely vanished from his resume.

Mourinho's recent career path has resembled what Spears appropriately characterized as a "tour of great European capital cities"—managing AS Roma, Fenerbahçe, and Benfica. While living in Rome, Istanbul, and Lisbon enhanced his personal lifestyle, his sporting impact diminished. At Roma, he secured consecutive 6th-place Serie A finishes, and the club's league performance improved immediately following his departure. At Fenerbahçe, he failed to deliver the Turkish Süper Lig title despite substantial investment. At Benfica, despite an unbeaten domestic league run, a 3rd-place finish represented an underperformance for a club of that stature.

This statistical decay raises fundamental questions regarding whether Mourinho's tactical philosophy can thrive in modern elite football. The game has evolved toward high-intensity counter-pressing, rigid positional play (Juego de Posición), and sophisticated physical metrics. Mourinho's traditional strengths—psychological warfare, low-block organizational resilience, and direct vertical transitions—have increasingly been neutralized by modern tactical frameworks. Unless Mourinho executes a complete tactical evolution at Real Madrid, reversing an eleven-year trajectory of declining elite results remains an uphill battle.

3.4 Dressing Room Dynamics & The Vinícius Jr. Reconciliation

One of the most sensitive operational challenges facing Mourinho is establishing a functional relationship with Vinícius Júnior. Public friction between the two figures erupted during Mourinho's tenure at Benfica following a controversial incident involving Benfica player Gianluca Prestiani. Vinícius alleged he was subjected to racial abuse, to which Mourinho responded by publicly defending Prestiani, criticizing Vinícius's goal celebration as "stupid," and making the provocative claim that "in a stadium where Vinícius plays, something always happens."

As podcast host Adam Leventhal and analyst Tim Spears noted, these comments drew sharp condemnation from global media, epitomizing the defensive, incendiary rhetoric that has characterized Mourinho's modern persona. Many analysts speculated that this historic friction would accelerate Vinícius's departure from Madrid, with rumors linking him to Arsenal and Premier League suitors.

However, reporting from The Athletic's Mario Cortegana confirms that pragmatism has prevailed. Vinícius's camp confirmed that the forward harbors no lingering hostility toward Mourinho's arrival, a position validated by Vinícius signing a major contract extension with Real Madrid. Vinícius publicly expressed optimism regarding Mourinho's training methods, signaling an institutional alignment designed to prioritize team success over personal grievances. For Mourinho, earning the complete buy-in of Vinícius—alongside Kylian Mbappé and Jude Bellingham—will dictate whether he can maintain dressing room harmony.

3.5 Historical Revisionism & The 2013 Manchester United Counterfactual

The conversation on The Athletic FC Podcast also examined key historical revelations exposed in Mourinho's recent Netflix documentary, offering fresh perspective on his managerial legacy. The most compelling revelation centers on the summer of 2013, when Sir Alex Ferguson retired from Manchester United.

According to documentary disclosures, Sir Alex Ferguson explicitly identified Mourinho as his preferred successor at Old Trafford. However, the United board ultimately selected David Moyes, initiating a decade of institutional drift and sporting decline. Tim Spears reflected on this "sliding doors" moment, arguing that had Mourinho taken charge of Manchester United in 2013—while still at the absolute peak of his tactical powers—United likely would have avoided their prolonged collapse. Instead, Mourinho returned to Chelsea, won the Premier League in 2014-15, and only joined United three years later in 2016 during a far more complicated period in his career.

Additionally, the documentary featured startling admissions regarding Mourinho's first spell at Chelsea, with John Terry and André Villas-Boas revealing that Mourinho conducted unauthorized surveillance of opposition training sessions. These admissions underscore Mourinho's unyielding drive for competitive advantage and his mastery of psychological warfare—traits that defined his early success but have occasionally degenerated into counterproductive media friction in his later career.

4. Speaker Perspectives & Analytical Contrast

The panel on The Athletic FC Podcast provided a masterclass in multi-faceted sports journalism, presenting contrasting analytical frameworks that highlighted the complexity of Mourinho's appointment. The interaction between Adam Leventhal, Tim Spears, Tom Harris, and Guillermo Rai reflected distinct journalistic lenses:

  • Adam Leventhal (Host & Structural Inquirer): Leventhal expertly anchored the discussion, focusing on the macro-institutional narrative. He framed the conversation around the governance dynamics of Florentino Pérez, the commercial power of documentary media, and the historical weight of Mourinho's 13th managerial role. Leventhal repeatedly pushed the panel to evaluate whether this appointment represents genuine institutional strategy or desperate crisis management.
  • Tim Spears (Senior Analyst & Realist Skeptic): Spears offered the most uncompromising, quantitatively grounded critique of the appointment. Focusing heavily on Mourinho's eleven-year trophy drought and statistical decay across Rome, Istanbul, and Lisbon, Spears characterized the hire as a pure political reaction by Pérez to Xabi Alonso's failure. Spears expressed severe skepticism regarding Mourinho's ability to execute a career reversal, famously predicting a short-lived honeymoon period followed by volatile fallout within six months.
  • Tom Harris (Tactical & La Liga Specialist): Harris provided granular, pitch-level analytical depth. While acknowledging Mourinho's historical ability to engineer individual big-game upsets (such as Chelsea's famous 2014 victory over Liverpool at Anfield), Harris focused on the severe out-of-possession flaws of Real Madrid's squad. He detailed why an Mbappé-Vinícius frontline creates defensive instability and explained why systemic competitors like Hansi Flick's Barcelona remain favorite to retain the La Liga title.
  • Guillermo Rai (Real Madrid Correspondent & Insular Observer): Rai brought vital ground-level context from Madrid. He emphasized the complete media blackout instituted by Mourinho upon arrival—refusing to hold a single press conference—and highlighted the intense desperation among Madrid fans after two seasons without major silverware. Rai captured the socio-political urgency surrounding Pérez's election and the fan base's appetite for an uncompromising figurehead.

The matrix below summarizes the key analytical perspectives and projections established by the panel:

Analytical Dimension Tim Spears (Realist Skeptic) Tom Harris (Tactical Specialist) Guillermo Rai (Madrid Correspondent)
Core Motivation for Hire Reactionary political maneuver by Pérez following Xabi Alonso's failure. Desperate attempt to restore competitive edge against Barcelona. Pérez seeking a proven alpha manager to control an unruly dressing room.
Tactical Feasibility Highly doubtful; Mourinho's methods belong to a bygone era. Flawed out-of-possession; relies entirely on individual transition brilliance. Requires total defensive sacrifice from secondary attackers like Diakité.
La Liga Title Projection 2nd Place behind Barcelona; high probability of mid-season volatility. 2nd Place; Barcelona's structured machine under Flick will prevail. Competitive title race; Madrid forced to target cup competitions.
Long-Term Viability Combustion within 6 to 12 months; career trajectory unlikely to pivot. Dependent on Champions League knockout variance and luck. High short-term focus; zero press conferences signal siege mentality.

5. Strategic & Industry Implications

Mourinho's second appointment at Real Madrid carries profound implications for the broader landscape of elite European football, signaling key shifts in managerial recruitment, squad construction, and sports media integration:

  • The Renaissance of Executive Authoritarianism vs. Systemic Projects: For the past decade, elite football recruitment has leaned heavily toward systemic, process-driven project managers like Pep Guardiola, Mikel Arteta, and Xabi Alonso. However, Real Madrid's immediate abandonment of the Alonso project in favor of Mourinho demonstrates the limits of systemic coaching when applied to hyper-star-driven environments. In clubs where individual player brands eclipse managerial authority, executive leadership will continue to prioritize high-charisma "dressing room enforcers" over dogmatic tacticians.
  • The Structural Arms Race in Spanish Football: La Liga is entering a captivating ideological clash. Hansi Flick's Barcelona represents high-pressing, structured, automated positional football where collective press triggers dictate performance. Real Madrid under Mourinho represents elite individual transition firepower operating within a flexible, emotionally driven defensive framework. This dichotomy will define the competitive balance of Spanish football over the coming years.
  • The Convergence of Documentary Media and Managerial Branding: The synchronized timing of Mourinho's Netflix documentary release alongside his high-profile appointment highlights the modern evolution of managerial branding. Media narratives, historical counterfactuals (such as the 2013 Manchester United revelation), and curated documentary exposure serve to maintain a manager's elite market value even during periods of declining on-pitch trophy output. Mourinho remains the ultimate master of leveraging global media presence to command €15 million buyout fees and top-tier managerial contracts.

6. Looking Ahead: Unresolved Questions & Next Milestones

As José Mourinho embarks on his 13th managerial assignment, several key operational metrics and unresolved questions will determine whether "Mourinho Mark II" achieves historic redemption or terminates in predictable combustion:

  1. Out-of-Possession Structural Integration: Can Mourinho convince Kylian Mbappé and Vinícius Júnior to execute minimum defensive duties, or will he rely entirely on Yan Diakité and the midfield engine room to absorb defensive overload? Tracking Madrid's defensive recovery metrics and open-play goals conceded in big matches will provide immediate tactical answers.
  2. El Clásico Tactical Battles: How will Mourinho's defensive transition scheme hold up against Hansi Flick's high-line, suffocating Barcelona press? Head-to-head encounters against Barcelona will serve as the definitive benchmark for his tenure.
  3. Media Strategy and Siege Mentality: Having refused all press conferences upon his initial arrival, how long can Mourinho maintain a total media blackout before media friction erupts? Managing Madrid's aggressive press corps remains a primary test of his operational stability.
  4. Electoral Impact for Florentino Pérez: Will Mourinho's presence deliver immediate silverware to justify Pérez's high-risk political gamble, or will a third consecutive season of domestic disappointment force structural change at the board level?

In conclusion, José Mourinho's return to Real Madrid is a staggering historical narrative that captures the essence of contemporary football drama. It pits one of the game's most decorated yet controversial figures against the world's most demanding football club. Whether Mourinho can defy his decade-long trajectory of diminishing elite returns and forge a cohesive champion out of a Galáctico squad remains the ultimate question. As Tim Spears succinctly noted on the podcast, one guarantee remains absolute: the unfolding campaign will be anything but dull.

💬 Key Quotes & Speaker Breakdown

Manchester United managerial history

"One of the bigger revelations in his Netflix documentary is that he probably should have been the Manchester United manager in 2013. It was a sliding doors moment."

— Adam Levantal

"I do not think that United would have gone through the struggles that they have if he'd taken over at that time when he was still coming towards the end of his prime era."

— Tim Spears

Real Madrid manager search

"It feels like a reaction to me to what's just happened. They hired Xabi Alonso as a long-term project manager, but he struggled to handle expectations in the most demanding club in the world."

— Tim Spears

Jose Mourinho at Real Madrid

"He hasn't given any single press conference since he's arrived. I think it's exciting really for Madrid fans because it has been very difficult to afford two seasons without any big title."

— Guillermo Rai

Rodri transfer rumors

"I think Rodry would be caught in that kind of space as well unless Mourinho revolutionises their out-of-possession structure. I think Barcelona would provide a better fit for him."

— Tom Harris

Jose Mourinho's career statistics

"In the first 13 years of his career, Mourinho won eight league titles, seven domestic cups, two Champions Leagues. In the past 11 years, two trophies. It's hard to envisage that he does a 180 on this career trajectory."

— Tim Spears

Jose Mourinho's career trajectory

"Considering his career trajectory in the last few years, he's basically been doing a tour of great European capital cities, not really doing very much in terms of boosting his career in his later years."

— Tim Spears

Jose Mourinho's recent success

"In the last 10 years he's done very, very little. It seems like the era of football that he was so successful in is a long time ago now. His last major European trophy was 10 seasons ago."

— Tim Spears

Real Madrid dressing room dynamics

"Maurinho is right now on the top of the food chain at Real Madrid and that will help establish the roles within the squad. It is more difficult if the coach is below a star; there is no authority."

— Guillermo Rai

Jose Mourinho's personality

"I think it's just a real desperation to stay in the headlines and it points to his fragile ego. He constantly has to be seen and heard and stay relevant in the game."

— Tim Spears

Jose Mourinho's managerial ability

"Given his recent career trajectory, I think it's important not to completely write him off as this washed-up old manager; he's still got a lot of the skills that he used to have."

— Tom Harris
📜 View Full Episode Verbatim Transcript 37,524 characters
Hi there and welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Adam Levantal, so after 13 years apart, Jose Mareño is back at Rayal Madrid and after a turbulent season at the Bernabéu can this really be the solution? Well alongside me from the Athletic is Tim Spears, how are you ready to go again? Yeah let's do this. Yeah good and Tom Harris how are you? Yeah really good thank you. It's interesting this one isn't it? Jose Mareño back at Rayal Madrid we are going to be joined a little bit later on by the Athletics Rayal Madrid correspondent Guillermo Rai as well. I'm so intrigued by this Tim. Jose Mareño back at Rayal Madrid spent three years there between 2010 and 13. It's his 13th managerial job. Does this make sense to you in any way shape or form? I mean no not really you know when the news sort of broke it was genuinely unbelievable. Considering his sort of career trajectory in the last few years he's basically been doing a tour of like great European capital cities you know living in like Rome and Istanbul and Lisbon and having a great time we're not really doing very much in terms of you know boosting his his sort of career in his later years but yeah I guess you know obviously Real Madrid had a bad couple of years not when anything meaningful for a couple of years which is completely unacceptable for them for the second last year Champions League quarterfinals. I guess you know looking to sort of reignite their success. Florentine Appairs will look at what's brought them success in the past in terms of their head coach and you know they're most successful managers this century have been Karl Weichelotti and Cenodine Zinnan. Neither of whom are known for their like unbelievable tactical prowess and like forward thinking like ideas in the game you know they're more known for like they're obviously both very intelligent and they've worked at the high level of the game are very experienced and obviously very good tactically but they're more known for managing addressing rim and being good man managers and being a figurehead for for the club which is a very particular club you know very unique in world football and kind of you know staying calm when everything else around them is kind of mad. Some Reno obviously very different what he can manage addressing rim you know he can manage egos because he's the biggest one in the room. I think in an ideal world they may have gone back to Karl Weichelotti or Zinnan but they've both obviously now got high profile international jobs they've both been rehired before by Florentine Apparra's and marina is the latest to be rehired so I guess they're trying to sort of tap into the fact that he can manage what's been an unruly dressing room I think he would say. Tommy you surprised that Joe's marina is still demanding the sort of fees that he's demanding 15 million euros I had to pay Benfica to to release him. Yeah it's obviously his reputation preceding in a way and I think as Tim said he is one of a great kind of dressing room managers and I also think if you look back at his career he just has this kind of uncanny way of kind of swinging games his way ties or races his way I'm just a city fan and I remember back in 2014 just a weird kind of confidence I felt when we needed Liverpool to slip up and field and Joe's marina was Chelsea rock up and he just managed to get the result he's always been so good at that but yeah given his recent career trajectory I think it's important not to completely write him off as this kind of you know washed up old manager he's still got a lot of the skills that he used to have I think his season just got that Benfica you know they didn't lose a single game in the in the Portuguese top flight they finished third which is a pretty pretty amazing thing to have happened but you know they they played some pretty good football very attacking you know he lent into kind of having six players across the attacking attacking line of Benfica and was very kind of yeah allowed his players to do their thing but I do worry that this is just a little bit too much of a jump for him because as Tim said the dressing room is is a little bit unruly and I think the squad is in balanced and you know we spoke about Ancelotti he also struggled to get the most out of this squad in his final year in charge of Real Madrid after killing a Bappé joined because it's so hard to find a way to fit both finishes in a Bappé in the team they have to be in the team because they're so good but also have some kind of defensive balance when they don't have the ball in terms of the the relationship with the president you mentioned Florentino Perez and this was obviously a big play from him because he was under pressure after those two seasons not winning a major trophy first time he called for a members vote in 20 years so he had to take on someone else do you feel like this is almost like right come on Jose get me out of this this difficult situation show that I'm still the guy that the Real Madrid fans should be believing in yeah I mean it's quite a sort of a risky tactic say the play yeah yeah but then you know his opponent in the election was promising to sign early in Harland which was obviously you know a lot less sort of realistic I mean lots has lots has changed at Real Madrid in the last sort of you know Decade also since merino was there but the one constant is Florentino Perez and it feels like a reaction to me to what's just happened so obviously last season they hired Chabuilanzo seen as like a long term sort of project manager tactically astute younger but I'd won the Bundesliga and sort of little else hadn't sort of managed at an elite level and seemed to me like he sort of struggled to handle expectations in you know the most demanding club in the world basically and struggled to like handle that dressing room so it feels like a reaction to that you know though and they were linked with very big name managers like Jürgen Klopp and and Potsettino and and and Desha but merino is the one who Perez wanted and merino is the one who's Perez has sort of trusted in and and liked you know more than anyone during his sort of tenure at the club so that's again that's that's what you have to sort of remember this is not like English football you know this is this is this is sort of one man one president this is the guy I want they happen to fend about Jay with as Ali Kutch who who sort of like I want to win the election and merino is the guy I'm going to give you kind of thing so it's along similar lines here so it used to being the prize yeah I guess so yeah but it's such a it's such a huge risky move because yeah in the last 10 years he's done very very little Marine you know and it seems like you know the era football that he was so successful in is it's a long time ago now his last major European trophy and this is not not sort of demeaning that the conference lead which he won with with Roma but last major trophy he won 10 seasons ago with with Manchester United do you think that you know that that reputation as as Tom mentioned before it does come before him and it and almost he really desperately needs something to cling on to now otherwise this will be him as a technically a busted flash yeah if he can't win something with the team that he's got which I'm sure getting to in a bit which is incredible it sort of feels galactica-esque you know the players that they've got then yeah I don't I don't see what else he can do in his career from this point and sort of top level league football he's getting on a bit now and the last three clubs he's he's been that he would point to sort of having success at those clubs but really you know he's he's underperformed at Benfica finishing third Fenerbahce didn't win anything there Rome I think they finished sixth in his two four seasons that they were there and they've gone up the table since he left so so yeah he's putting his reputation on the line but obviously that won't bother him and it is interesting as well and you would you would expect this from merino when he's taken on this massive job to also have it tied in with a Netflix document documentary which is out the moment I'm enjoying watching it actually and there's some decent revelations in there I mean that one that really stuck out in the first episode to me was that he technically spied on training sessions when he was the Chelsea manager which is revealed by john terry on drevia less boroughs is part of the conversation as well which shocked me but one of the bigger revelations is that he probably should have been the Manchester United manager in in 2013 I mean it's all quite old school now it doesn't technically really matter but it was a sliding doors moment wasn't he could have been the boss and he took another path yes sliding doors is right I don't think anybody really even suggested that at the time the essentially about training session you know we'll Chelsea now get a points deduction yeah I guess it look it's a timely reminder to the world as he takes one of the biggest jobs in the world that he was once deemed good enough to follow the greatest manager the English football has ever seen is Sir Alex Ferguson who seems like he was his choice as well to follow him another one of the world's best managers David Moise you know got it instead and obviously you know we know what happened there as as ever with marina you can sort of take his words with a pinch of salt I think he said he didn't take it out of respect for Chelsea and yet three years later he actually he takes a job anyway and then six years later he takes the spurs job who were like Chelsea you know very sort of direct rivals so obviously probably bitter being sacked at Chelsea when he was what 16th in the table so you know rewriting history is something he he likes to do but doesn't have to do you know he was he was one of the greatest in the world you know for a number of years so yeah you can sort of take it with a pinch of but it is very interesting it's very much a sliding doors moment and I do not think that united would have gone through the struggles that they have if he'd taken over at that time when he was still sort of you know in his coming towards the end of his prime era but still still had the magic and just on his personality Tom a lot of it comes across in in the documentary about him basically just being totally devoted to football and to the point that and it comes up in the documentary about Eka Cassias and him being too close to to Barcelona players and him having a really difficult relationship with Cassias and some of the other big personalities in the dressing room basically saying that they were a bit too spoiled he wants everyone to knuckle down and focus on the job and get the job done so in a way right on Madrid fans that we're hearing this will be going well yeah that's exactly what we need we want someone to get everyone dialed in focused on taking on Barcelona and beating them and if you look at the table from last season they weren't far off they had a decent defense they just didn't score enough goals and that would have turned those draws into wins so you know it's marginal his opportunity yeah I think so I think rumouredrids you know despite the fact that they did finish you know relatively close to Barcelona I will say a lot of the issues I think are tactical and I'm not sure if marineo is quite the man to solve that but I do think from kind of returning you know the passion to the rumouredrids it's so to speak in these games where they have been just kind of played off a pitch by by Barcelona I don't think that's going to happen next season it can't do with someone like marineo in the dressing room because he is going to get his players up for it and you know there is a lot of competitiveness I think in the rumouredrids dressing room as well and I think marineo will be able to channel that you know maybe unlike some of the managers that they've had in the past couple of seasons so I think you'll definitely be interesting from a personality perspective but you also have to say that marineo look he has fallen out with a lot of players in the past and there are some you'd imagine pretty difficult personalities in that rumouredrids dressing room too so I think it's all about towing that line but yeah it'll be really interesting to see that first class ago I think it's pretty early in the season as well just to see how that goes down okay let's get into our discussion of the day sponsored by threads so last night we asked our threads followers what is your favourite José marineo moment Tom Gorn far away there's a lot to choose from I really enjoy that moment at Tottenham where I can't remember what the refereeing decision was now but he kind of trundles back to his seat he looks all calm and then his assistant kind of points and says look look at this and then he gets back up and he runs to the touch line yeah and yeah I think that's classic marineo isn't it just even though he probably wasn't as kind of emotionally invested in in that moment he knows that he needs to show it and it needs to be kind of a big thing involving him so I think that would really sum them up and it was quite funny yeah at the same time it was it was very good Tim yours yeah I mean our mind was also that you know because it just sort of epitomises like new marineo like the marineo sort of desperate to just sort of stay in the headlines I think I think Raim Sterling had gone down in the box and a penalty wasn't given and then his assistant sort of tells him oh he's already got a book in so that's where he sort of you know wacky races style just legs it's all there but but that's new marineo like old marineo would be oh you can't beat the knee slider old traffic and also Tom mentioned earlier the celebration when he's when he stops Liverpool basically winning the league you know and he's sort of going down the touch line like and putting himself on lies me me me that just just epitomises the utter arrogance of the man and also you know it's all about him and he's a winner that was sort of you know early marineo epitomises him perfectly I think one more as well when he beat Juventus as manager of Manchester United news on the pitch kind of copying his air looking around that was another one I think slightly more new marineo where again it's you know you doubted me but here I am I've done it again and just that as Tim said that kind of desperation to show that he's still the man I think that just makes him so good to watch few other suggestions from people on threads no one's mentioned this the special one obviously that came in his first press conference Chelsea but did it Adam well yeah he didn't call himself the special one he said I am a special one and then it got sort of manufactured into the special one having said that he does have a car with the special one extra sorry yeah so he has lent into he's never really never really played it exactly so that has been suggested by a few people Agon Zalich has said when he was banned to go to the dressing room for a Chelsea Champions League game and he sneaks into the laundry basket also a bird flu pressure press conference he mentioned from Mikey Love as well thank you very much for sending those in if you want to be featured on the next discussion of the day head over to threads follow the athletic FC and join the conversation now the athletics Guillermo Rye joins us now Guillermo thanks for coming on so after leaving the club in 2013 he's back at the Bernabéu how has his return been received in Madrid then times have changed it in Spain I think that we remember what or how Modigna was in his first between 2010 and 2013 I think now the perception is slightly different because he's more mature I guess I think he's less talkative he hasn't given any single press conference since he's arrived and I think it's exciting really for Madrid fans because it has been very difficult to afford two seasons without any big title and they need changes they need something new Amorinho is definitely despite that he was Madrid coach for three years it's something different he's just different yeah he's quite remarkable that he's not given a press conference yet I think it was two months ago that they announced the appointment he started in earnest with a preseason training a month ago I'm sure he's just keeping his his powder dry I'm sure he will say something sensational at some point on dealing with the dressing room is he the right guy to deal with the the big personalities the big E goes Vinny Jr and Bapé Bellingham well a prediction here is it's tough really because they are such big personalities that is you know when there is a bad time it's difficult to predict how they are going to react but what we can say is that they are all very competitive they are hungry because they haven't won anything last year and the year before and Maurinho definitely will definitely help establish a little bit the roles within the squad I think it has been a bit difficult for Sarri Alonso and Albert Arvela last season to you know to keep things under control and Maurinho is right now on the top of the food chain at Real Madrid and that will help I think establish you know what the role is for the rest of us they will know that Maurinho is the the leader and from from there they will try to to build a team I think is easier that way and it is more difficult if the coach is below a star right there is no authority and it damages a little bit the environment so I think from the start bearing in mind everything I think it will help a little bit to you not to establish the order of things and you said that you know he's he's trying to build a team in terms of the transfer window obviously they've they've kept hold of Vinny Jr despite that interest from from Arsenal Yandy Amanda is coming from RB Leipzig it looks as if they're going to lose out on Roderie to Barcelona that's not obviously confirmed yet but you know that would be quite a big blow how are you rating that the business so far that they've done so when we talk about when we are about to you know as to start a new transfer window is all excited men and sometimes we speak about a revolution and sometimes it is not but this time I I think it was a revolution first of all because of the among these arrival I think it's a big big investment and at the same time I think by keeping Vinny Thus Romali is making a statement within the you know the industry the usual thing I'd say would be to to sell Vinny Thus Rom and to sign the replacement but this time it has been different they have managed to kept Vinny Thus Rom to sign the amandate they have two stars apart from Judd Bellingham and and Killian and Bapay of course they still need a midfielder is I think something that is served by many many people including some people inside the club and after Roddy's decision to join Barcelona let's see if he ends up joining there's some expectations regarding a new signing and let me feel let's see if there is a new surprise but but so far I'd say it has been it has been a good transfer window and a bit of a revolution yeah yeah man I'll come back to you in two seconds but I just wanted to check with with you Tom on on Rodry obviously it's a it's a blow for Manchester City but you've written about who he would be better suited playing for Real Madrid and Barcelona where did you end up on that well I ended up on Barcelona that's good because it's looking more likely yeah I think he's kind of made the right decision if you know our reporting we've mentioned it it was Rodry himself who kind of lent a little bit more towards Barcelona when the two teams came in for him and I think it makes sense just because I mean Rodry was back to his best at the World Cup this summer I think that was because he was in a very kind of defined system where he is the anchoring midfielder he's got two midfielders to the side of him who A move around a lot and make a lot of passing options and kind of rotate with him nicely but B are also just as kind of intense offable and you know they're always looking to counter press whenever Spain have the ball they're always trying to be in the right position to make sure that when they lose it they can nip it straight back and that's what Rodry does so well across the tournament and you know if you look at City where he's thrived all of these years and Barcelona they're very kind of similar playstyles going to Barcelona he'll have a lot of these players that he played for with Spain you know Pauqua I see you've got all more in bedroom midfield there's a lot more on the right hand side I think it's just all a lot more familiar and I think with Real Madrid I'm looking at a really unsure many really in the last couple of years particularly since killing a bad pair arrived he's often been caught in this kind of space where he's defending a lot of space because the first line is too easy to get through with Fnissus and Bappé he's got plays behind him he's got plays in front of him he doesn't quite know where to go you know whether to press up whether to drop back and I think Rodry would be caught in that kind of space as well unless Merinio kind of revolutionises there out possession structure and given Rodry's injury you know obviously he looked back to his best but he's still had a very serious ACL injury I think he's lost a little bit of mobility and I think he's at his best when he doesn't have to cover those large bases and you know the team functions well around him so I think in that respect Barcelona yeah would would provide in that and Madrid it would be a little bit more uncertain I think. Let's get back to Guillermo we've obviously mentioned it before two trophilist seasons for Real Madrid what would mark success for Merinio this season do you think? Definitely titles definitely because if if we come back to the first spell to the Merinio's first spell what made Merinio successful during his second campaign was the La Liga title being close to to the Champions League final they they lost again against Bayern units in the semi-finals they reached it actually three semi-finals and they need to compete both in the Champions League and the La Liga title they need to to be on on the top I think that if we hear Merinio he hasn't spoken a lot as I said but he spoke on the clubs TV and basically he said that his goal was to you know to recover a little bit the competitive atmosphere within the club is not only about titles it's also about the spirit of of the dint it has been missed a little bit especially in this second season it has been lost there have been many changes no clarity no strategy I think Merinio's goal probably is different than Madrid fans goal they both want to win titles but for Merinio the first goal is is you know to recover a little bit then Real Madrid está dos as it happened in his first as well yeah Guillermo that's great thank you very much indeed whatever happens it's going to be a fun ride so do enjoy it and just touching on the decision of Inesia's junior to stay at Real Madrid it's well worth reading the inside story from David Ornstein James McNeilis Maria Cortagano as well and that's on the athletic for you at the moment so dig into that to find out exactly what happened Guillermo mentioned you know how much of a big statement it was to to keep Vinny Junior you've written about the impact for for Real Madrid and I suppose everyone would be thinking oh that's that's a positive thing you're not necessarily on that page yeah I've got to talk about the opposition again but I think it is the biggest issue at Real Madrid I think it's the reason why they've struggled in the last two years because they're too easy to play through when they play teams in the kind of bottom half of La Liga they have the ability you know they have plays who can win you games just on who they are and winning jewels on scoring from distance on quality but when they play a team like Barcelona who are really well drilled their lack of structure without the ball has been ruthlessly exposed I mean they've lost I think it's six of our last seven games to Barcelona the four nil defeat and they're at five two as well they've all been pretty comfortable and it's because again the only way to fit those two players and this is tuning in and back pay into a squad it's to defend in a four four two and have those as two strikers so in order to do that you're kind of one thing you're doing is you're pushing Jude Bellingham Fettivalverde at wide because you're not having enough kind of defensive stability on the wing so they get moved at wide which takes away you know we saw how well Bellingham played at the World Cup being able to attack those central spaces that takes that attacking threat away and it puts far too much strain on the two central midfielders so yeah I think there are definite issues though and I think if Vinicius would have left the club obviously you want to keep him because he's such a good player but it would have allowed Merinio a little bit more flexibility I think to create a new structure and I think Angelotti's penultimate season at Real Madrid before in Bappé arrived they had a nice thing going on where it was Vinicius Jr. it was Rodrigo those were kind of two strikers who would go out wide and Bellingham could play through the middle and kind of attack with these kind of late runs into the box which is what he did at the World Cup but you can't do that with those two players at the top because they just do not offer enough defensively so they'll be happy they've kept him because they're going to continue I think to steamroll a lot of these teams that they should be beating but I do think that the gap between them and Barcelona is not you know whether they can beat you know Levante it's whether they can beat Barcelona and I'm not sure they are consistently going to be able to do that with with the current set up that they have one of the subplots him with Vinicius Jr. and maybe one of the pieces of the jigsaw of him moving to Arsenal people thought oh well he's not going to get on with Merinio considering what happened when Merinio was the the Benfica boss and the situation with Gianluca Prestiani last season Vinicius alleged that he was racially abused by him and their Merinio basically stuck up for for his guy for his team and called Vinicius Jr.'s celebration stupid before he also said a stadium where Vinicius plays something happens always so you thought well they potentially are not going to have a good relationship and that will give Vinicius an opportunity just to go and say well yeah it was the right time it hasn't happened do you think he now has to repair that relationship I think we definitely need to hear from him you know when when we do finally hear from Merinio he needs to clarify those comments I don't think he did clarify the very well you know after the incident just weird stuff you know and sort of epitomised the sort of caricature that Merinio has become and we've seen him you know just sort of like feigning and exaggerating emotions just to try and stay relevant I think obviously he's been out at sort of less high profile high profile clubs particularly at Fenerbahce where I thought his behaviour became quite erratic and just a real desperation to stay in the headlines and it points to his sort of you know his fragile ego and like we say and early he constantly has to to be seen and heard and stay relevant in the game I mean is the Vinicius Jr.'s stuff I found utterly deplorable to be honest I couldn't actually believe that he'd said it I just thought it was the mark of a desperate man I don't think he actually I don't think he believed what he said surely we know a lot about Merinio we know he seems like a good guy at heart and this is all a front and a persona but to sort of suggest that someone had had incited racism by celebrating a goal and then to suggest that no one at Benfica is racist because you say B.O. is one of their legends is just absolutely nonsense it's like childish kind of reasoning you know he's better than that but you know in terms of the relationship with Vinicius Jr we can kind of go on well I'd go on what's been written in the athletic which is Mara Cortanaga wrote when Merinio was appointed what Merinio said did not go down well with the forward sources close to the player set at the time however there was no public comment at all from Madrid those same sources have recently said the Brazilian has no problem with Merinio arriving as the club's new manager and the fact that he signed a contract would seem to back that up yeah and he did I think he there was some quotes that were out from Vinicius Jr. when he just returned sort of saying oh we we're getting used to the managers new methods and blah blah blah blah blah so it was all sounding positive at the time yeah he's stayed so he must have had a reason to do so someone who's joined Vinicius Jr. is Yandee Amande how is he going to fit in how is he going to make things better hopefully that's what Real Madrid fans will hope yeah I mean first interest he's really exciting he as a dribble he's unbelievable he was so good I'll be like the glass season I think Dima and they he can play on both sides so you know I think Real Madrid are plenty of players who want to play on the left already so I think he will be deployed on the right and I think because he's he is a little bit more defensively minded than Vinicius and and and Bappe as we were just saying he is able to kind of defend the flank by himself so you can put him out as a right midfielder in a kind of 4-4-2 shape and he can kind of you know tries best it to to lock that down he played in the Bundesliga last season which is a lot more end to end transitional he played RB Leipzig part of a kind of red ball group which again plays very up and down football so he's very much used to that and he can play there the only problem is that the right back behind him is one of Trent Alexander Arnold or Denzel Dumfries so it's an incredibly attacking lineup if you're going to put him as your winger kind of defending that side Trent Alexander Arnold and then and Bappe let's say as the other player on that side again so lower teams in La Liga I think that's going to be unbelievably fun to watch and I think Maurinho is going to give them all the kind of the the freedom to link up and to and to play I think when they're playing the Champions League it'll be interesting to see what he does because again it solves a little bit because Deamandei is more defensively engaged but I don't think it is is their priority by any stretch I think as midfield as as Guillermo said is is where they really need to strengthen and you know we haven't really spoken about Killian and Bappe you know we obviously heard there about Jan Deamandei enhanced his reputation at the at the World Cup he wasn't signed because of his performances but he enhanced it Killian and Bappe also had a great World Cup he should head into this new season with renewed optimism that he can finally click at Real Madrid because he hasn't quite clicked yet has he not really scored like 45 and 45 last season what do you think what more do you want in terms of him coming in and guaranteeing them titles he's not done that has he no but I think that's more that's more to the team around him and the and the managers rather than him personally well yeah but I don't want to draw too much on yesterday's podcast but you blamed Enzo Fernandez entirely for Chelsea yeah but he's Argentinian but no I just it's just it's not Killian and Bappe's fault so ideally Maurinho can you know continue to get the best out of him Kenny yeah well that you know this is Tom sort of pointing out how to how to tactically get the best out of them and to and to fit all these he goes into one room as well which has been the case for Real Madrid for sort of many years the key is going to be getting hold on the dressing room I think first and foremost and commanding respect of these players you know on Bappe would have grown up thinking Maurinho is one of the best managers in the world you know when he was a youngster but is he now can he still command the respect of someone like Killian and Bappe that's going to be one of his sort of biggest tests and it does feel like an unruly dressing room we had that big flashpoint between two many in Valverde last year and there are obviously huge huge characters in there but he might he quite likes that passion doesn't he probably wants to sort of lean into that he'll feed on that but but getting hold of them and making them work for him is going to be crucial because on paper it's it's absolutely mouthwatering prospects and Bappe bailing him finishes June of Yandere Manday and then you got you know Cucarone Dumfries full bat you got Bernardo Silva pulling the strings you've got Adagula and what a talent he is like is he we're going to be getting the team Brahim Diaz maybe Hendrick Trent's one of the best sort of crosses and passes in in World Football it's ridiculous you know defense not so good but they still got called to us one of the best keepers in the world so it's top heavy for sure you know fair play figures 10 men behind the ball in this opening sort of match of the season but it's hard to see a lot of those players sort of sacrificing individual glory for defensive discipline however that's exactly what Merinio did back in the day he used to matter how hard how hard working was that Chelsea team his first Chelsea team that's a long time ago long time ago full of stars they're the best defensive record probably the Premier League will ever see 15 goals never be beaten so he could do it back in the day now he's got to got to do it again long time later final point crystal ball time from from both of you Tom how do you see this panning out because you love your Spanish football watching La Liga I mean it's exciting as we said at the top do you see it working do you see it having a positive outcome for Merinio in the club yeah I mean I have been quite negative about rumoredred over the last two seasons but at the same time they did still manage I think was 86 points or something like that last season in the 80s for goals as well they you know won a lot of games very convincingly and they've only added to their firepower so yeah they're still going to be right up there I just think Barcelona are just a more kind of well-oiled machine I think the only thing is that Hansi flick has been there for this is this third season now where we can keep that intensity going but it just looks really good for them and I think it's not going to be a case of rumoredred doing badly I think it's just going to be a case of Barcelona being a little bit better than them and I think I can for that reason I can see Barcelona winning a third La Liga title in a row which is not good from rum perspective but yeah I think they've got to win something as as Guillermo said earlier on whether they you know really go out all in the cup of the right they're not going that competition for a very long time actually and see what happens in the Champions League because we have seen teams like you know past rumoredred teams who have looked very unbalanced on paper and I've just managed to do it so yeah second in La Liga and then we'll see. Mystic Tim what's happening? I will be one last three years he won that's the length of his contract yeah that's the length yeah you can guarantee that so in the first 13 years of his career Marino won eight league titles seven domestic cups two Champions Leagues and one UEFA Cup I think is it was known then with Porto that's the first 13 years in the past 11 years two trophies a Europa League with Man United which feels a very long time ago now and the conference league with Roma nothing else no other domestic cups even with like Fenerbahce and with Benfica you know these teams with these competitions regularly so it's hard to envisage that he does a 180 on this sort of career trajectory but he has the best teams managed since the Chelsea title probably in his second spell there so if he can't do it now he never will and obviously we know it won't be dull and we'll be doing a podcast about him doing actually some nuts in like two months time and then in six months time we'll be doing the fallout on how he got sacked you know right okay yeah I look forward to it okay cool I like those predictions so you're sort of more glass half empty on on his chances of success it's gonna be good fun for us but it will be fun anyway yeah okay cool Tim thank you very much indeed Tom thanks to you as well Guillermo earlier on in the show as well I don't forget you can listen to our podcast wherever you get them and you can watch on YouTube keep your comments coming in as always thanks very much for joining us and we will be back on Friday take care