Graham Ruthven on Total Soccer Show: "Infantino has already said it's going to be a 64-team tournament in 2030. That ...

Welcome to the Total Soccer Show and the Welcome Return of Listener Questions. On this episode, we're tackling the swath of world cup related questions from our mailbag, which team had the most disappointing performance? How do post-world cup big money transfers happen? And what should the USA's national soccer identity look like going bored? My name's Ryan Bailey joining me today. Hi, the Taylor Rockwell. How you doing? I'm doing well, the Ryan Bailey. I know your quest to get away from international soccer is nearly upon us with the return of the league structure. But for now, I like that you've gone straight up World Cup, straight up international soccer. It feels like maybe quietly, Ryan Bailey loves international soccer now. That's what I'm doing. Now that it's up for sale, Taylor. It's all within my domain. I do enjoy it very much. I hope this will tie a neat little bow on our World Cup coverage and transition is neatly into the European domestic seasons. Joining us to answer some questions as well. The Graham Rosvin. Hello, Graham. How are you? I'm good, Ryan Bailey. How are you? Have you done any more touristy London things since we spoke on yesterday's Patreon about what you were doing? Abba Voyage. That's surely on the list with the kids like Abba Voyage. They're going to see a musical called Six at the Weekend, which is about Henry VIII's six wives. Oh, what happens? They're all still alive, right? They're doing well. I think it was fine. Yeah, I think you'll happily ever after is how that one. Well, I'm done. Yeah. So that will be a 150-degree train to sit in a 160-degree theater. To watch a completely child-appropriate play by the scenes of it, theater-appropriate theater. Yeah, correct. Maybe Abba Voyage would be about a choice. Indeed, maybe. So I've heard it's very good. Are your children prepared to handle that? Are they going to treat it with kid gloves the way that plays out for the wives of Henry VIII? They're own glovestick hits. So I guess so. Yeah. Yeah. There's all those jokes about when men hang out, they just list their favorite point guards from 1980s, NBA teams, and whatever. And I feel like, by contrast, a thing that seems to appeal to at least all of the women in my life is Henry VIII, and Elizabeth, and that specific time period. I've asked my wife so many questions about why it is that that has such strong appeal. And I still feel like I don't have a clear and concise answer, but it seems pretty common and consistent across the women of my life. So maybe we need to go to that play too, right? I'm not quite sure. It's very expensive. So I will not be attending, however. We will be answering plenty of listener questions while Cup themed over the next 45 or so. Before we get there, we have a Patreon Patreon.com slash total soccer show is the very best way to support us. You'll get bonus episodes, including bonus listener questions, bonus video content and access to our Discord. All the cool kids hanging out in there having a great time. Patreon.com slash total soccer show. All right. What say you and I, listener? Get to some listener questions, including this one from Richard Gaines, which team had the most disappointing World Cup performance? Graham's got a smile on his face as if he had to concede that a particular team he's fond of maybe was disappointing. But Graham, we don't have to go there straight away. We could go to the Germany's and the Brazil's a little. How are you feeling about this one? Yeah, I mean, speaking personally, I'm just going to get out of the way straight away. There's no doubt what team had the most disappointing. I'll be it surprising. Not surprising, excuse me, World Cup. I was in Boston to witness it with my own eyes. Yeah, Scotland weren't very good at this tournament. But I do think they're aware, speaking, I guess, sort of objectively, if I can be objective about a subjective question. I think there were a couple teams that were even more disappointing than Scotland. I'm going to nominate a couple and I suspect these teams might also be on Taylor's list. But I suppose Turkey deserve a mention here, considering most people thought they would be in contention to top their group, obviously, the USA's group at this World Cup. Instead, they've finished bottom and were out of the competition entirely after only two games. They might actually have been the first team, officially, out of this World Cup. That seems to to ring a bell. I think they were the first or second, but yeah. Yeah, they were up there for sure. They were pretty dreadful. Turkey, although, I mean, it was such a, feels like such a long time ago. Did they maybe, they were quite wasteful, right? They created quite a lot of opportunities and maybe just weren't clinical enough in front of goal. But the other team that comes to mind for me, I think relevant to their talent level, I'd have to say you're a guy probably underachieved the most at this World Cup. They were really, really poor. I struggled to think of any redeeming quality about the performances at this World Cup. And I think the worst thing for me as a neutral was they were bad to watch. And if you had told me that a BLSA Uruguay would go out in the group stage of a World Cup, I would have thought that was possible. Like coming into this World Cup, there were question marks about his stewardship of this team and some of his squad selections as well. But I would have envisaged this kind of like chaotic back and forth team with lots of goals. And maybe it's their defense, like they just concede to many goals. They're too open at the back. That means they go out of this tournament early. But that is not what we got at all. And instead, Uruguay were just boring at this tournament. And I was thankful to see them go out early. So I think Uruguay are probably probably my answer. Yeah, I had a honorable mentions to or disanable mentions to Turkey, Scotland, Tunisia. And then like maybe Portugal, I think because I had them as like on my short list for making the final potential winners. And then they just looked like they never got out of second gear, maybe the first gear. And again, it was just so kind of static, so predictable, not very fun at all at any point. But the answer to this question is Uruguay. And it's not really close for me. It like it is enough that it had me actually starting to be like, it's be also for sure a good coach. Like he hasn't won anything. He gets fired really quickly. And often he falls out spectacularly with managers and with players. Excuse me. Like certainly he has influenced many, many coaches around him. And I'm not really trying to say that he's not actually a good coach. But this was the one that I thought was going to be the match made in heaven. Uruguay, we know can be really physical, but then can be also technical. And it felt like they didn't have as many egos in that team. And maybe I was just like very wrong about that one. And so it felt like we might get this kind of collective, like unit that, like pushes and pulls and works together and fights for every single inch, but then also can play aesthetically pleasing soccer at the same time. And then they end up not having Jojana Diyada Sketha for the entire tournament. None of their forwards looked like they even know how to score a goal. And now everybody wants to sign Dara Nunez for reasons. And in the end, they just looked completely shambolic across the board. Like really never had good ideas. Just crossed the ball over and over again. We're exceptionally dull to watch. And are definitely the most disappointing team of the tournament for me. Yeah, I make two more nominations. They're not anywhere close to the teams that have already been listed. But I think the Netherlands for the reason of I thought they had struck upon something in the group stage. And then Ronald Coleman goes back to like the conservative approach and they get knocked out by Morocco when I really, I really think had he stuck with the approach they had of Brian Robbie as they orthodox center forward. And then that the hind wide wingers and then their midfields, he shifted to back three. I think for that Morocco game and it just didn't work and Morocco kind of ground that out. So now the ones make my list for I guess like alternative reasons. And then for similar alternative reasons, a team that actually made it out of the group stage as well. Austria. Now in the face of things Austria had a par tournament where they made it out of the group stage. They get knocked out by the eventual winners in the round of 32. But I remember how interestingly were at the euros where it felt like we were left wanting more from that Ragnac Austria team. And they definitely regressed like tactically and just in terms of how toothless they looked in that in that Spain game. And then some of their group stage games as well. So I think I've had enough of Austria for a little while as well. All right. Any any discussion about Germany? I raised them at the start of the question. I've losing that last group stage game and going out in pretty unimpressive style in the knockouts as well. Graham any thoughts on Germany? Yeah, I think they definitely deserve a nomination. Obviously relative to their talent level, probably underperformed most of really any team at this world cup. Didn't see the the defeat to Paraguay coming at all, particularly because Paraguay have been quite poor. And the in the group stage, I guess the only qualifying factor as we've seen this before from Germany recently like their major tournament records has been poor since they won the world cup in 2014. And also there was a big question mark about this team heading into the tournament. I don't know if anyone realistically thought they were going to be among the like the contenders, the tier one nations. But yeah, I think that's absolutely a fair show. Yeah. And Taylor, if we're going to talk about performance as in an individual match performance, I have to say it might be upsetting, but there's one game where I think one team was the most disappointing. And that was the US against Belgium. Yeah. So are you saying that was the most disappointing rockup performance? Game on a single game basis. I would say yes. I yeah, probably. I think there's there's personal bias in there because I think Graham is nailed it. The the Dutch performance against Morocco was the most like jaw droppingly poor like genuinely made me feel anger for a team that I don't really have any rooting interest in just with how reactionary and scared they seem to be compared to how confident and strongly had been in the group stage. And I think that probably does apply to the United States as well. I think the noise surrounding everything that happened in that game is a huge part of that one. And it is like McKelle, you know, and I had like the great quote that I will struggle to find off the top of my head, but it really encapsulated how like that performance just really let the US down and ultimately did make it feel like it wasn't the successful tournament that we thought it could end up being. And so yeah, I think in that way, like it feels like an opportunity missed. It feels like like a chance that the US could have really like elevated and shown people that even like backs against the wall. And really, if they had had ball against suspended, it could have been even more so of backs against the wall. Nobody believes in us. But here we are fighting and pulling together and and being this like US team of disparate parts that performs better than the sum of what we are. And instead they just crashed out spectacularly. Here is the quote from McAlley. I said, if we lose tonight, I don't think it's a failure of a tournament. I think it's a failure of meeting the moment. But the way they fail the moment tonight makes it feel like a failure of a tournament. And I think that is so well said that it was like they met expectations, but the way they went out, I think, did end up making it feel like one of the most disappointing games of the tournament for me. Yeah, it was a total whiplash game, right? Where we went into that game thinking this could be the greatest night in USMNT history. I know they've gone further in competitions, but on a home world cup, it felt like that. That was the build up. That was the way it was framed. And we came out of it talking about the most disappointing result or like the big it, the heaviest knockout round defeat for a team. So that's what made it difficult to assess this whole tournament. So I bat you up on that right. And I think this even looking beyond the US and looking at the whole tournament, I think it probably was the most disappointing, definitely the most deflating from our point of view, result performance. Agreed. Definitely so. All right, Richard Gaines, thank you very much indeed for your question. We take a quick break when we come back. Plenty more world cup list of questions coming your way, join us then. Total soccer show, welcome back to our listener questions. Ian Brady has been in touch with this one. If the world cup goes to 64 teams and stays at 14 groups, what would you put the odds? The US loses in the round of 32. It will depend a lot on the draw, but it seems like if you don't win the group, you could be playing Spain, Argentina or France in the round of 32, depending on the structure. Taylor might, my instinct is that the odds are low of going out in the round of 32, but it's very hard to say without saying the draw. Yeah, honestly, I cannot believe that this has made me be more of a fan of the 48 team world cup because I kind of now like the third place thing and all the wrinkles, even if it was kind of frustrating, even if it meant angst for certain teams that thought they might be around and then suddenly we're no longer around. If it meant actual pain for a run being knocked out in like the last second in the worst way, but when you look at what this format will most likely be and less we forget that there are six host nations, which means that it is way harder to be a pot one team with all of those teams becoming pot one teams, it's almost guaranteed that the US goes into pot two. So then you are facing like maybe ideally they're getting power, but then you're still playing them on the road, but other than that, like you're getting like Argentina, Uruguay, Morocco, Spain, Portugal, like all of those are strong contenders. It's not quite like it was when you had the US Mexico and Canada hosting this time. And so if the US goes into a pot two draw, decent chance that they're getting a European team or a strong South American team is one of their pot one teams. And it looks sort of like a more kind of conventional tournament format for the United States, in which they need to get a result against like a stronger African or Asian team. And then there's that one more team that's in the group. Like, yeah, there's a decent chance that even if you do get out of that group, which it should be easier, but you never know, you are then moving it like likely in second place, potentially the second place into a round where you could get one of the big boys if they top their groups. So it is a weird one where you would assume that it makes it easier to go further, given the expansion, given the given like the dilution of talent or perceived dilution of talent, but instead it could put the US into a precarious situation in which they play three games, get an unlucky draw and are knocked out in unceremonious fashion fairly quickly. Yeah, I think it's almost guaranteed that the odds will be shorter in future world cups for the US because I just say Taylor that it's almost certain that they will not be a pot one team as they were in this world cup as a host nation. And so I went through this world cup that we've just had and I took the second place teams from this world cup and I took out the hosts as well because that kind of warped things. These are the teams that played in the round of 32 of this world cup. Netherlands, Egypt, Norway, Brazil, Australia, Argentina, Ivory Coast, Spain, Croatia, and Portugal. How many teams would the US be truly confident of beating in that list? Australia is the one that presume you're answering Taylor. They have a good chance of being Egypt as well presumably. All the other teams would be favorites to beat the US. And that for me really crystallized how much how difficult this is going to be for the US when regardless of the format, like even if it stays as a 48 team tournament, as I say, those were the teams from from this world cup. Like if it goes to 64, then I guess the the equation changes slightly where you would have like a dilution of the groups. Maybe you would get different second place teams. But yeah, it feels like the US. This was a gold opportunity for the US where they get Bosnia in the round of 32. They get through that game. Then they get a kind of weaker Belgium in the round of 16. I don't know if they're going to get that opportunity in 2030 again. They're going to have to improve quite significantly. Yeah, man. It's it's it's a strange one. And and I think I ended up that's why I come back to like I ended up liking the best third place teams. Even if it feels like we played a lot of games to only get rid of a handful of teams, it's still left that door open and not just for the US, but for a lot of other teams. It felt like we got we weren't ready to say goodbye to some of the teams that we thought we might have to. But then they end up going through his third place teams. Whereas once you expand it out, theoretically, those teams have a better chance because there are more potentially weaker teams qualifying. But I'm not sure that ends up being the case. So I think it does get trickier. I think the US could still win that first knockout round game. But it doesn't have the like ease that I thought it would. I think Graham makes the point. This does feel like it was maybe a gold opportunity missed, which maybe does raise them up in the disappointing rankings. Thank you for that, Graham. Thank you for that. Right. No problem. That's what I do. Can I just very quickly make the counterpoint for the 64 team format? I'm not even sure I want a 64 team format. I mean, I always already hand comes in and like a giant bag of cash drops off on Graham's lap. Like, oh, cool. What's that? There's an envelope appear in over my shoulder here. Thanks. Whip that away. So I think the reason I think it will happen is for the teams involved, they're not playing any extra games, right? So you're instead of making up the round of 32, 32 with eight teams, third place teams drawn from the group stage, you're just taking the top two from all 16 groups. And so if you're a Spain, for example, you win the world cup and you go the distance, you actually won't play anymore matches with this expansion. So you've got a cleaner format. You've got more games for FIFA to sell as part of their broadcast package. And it doesn't inconvenience the participating teams any more than the current format. And so that's why I think this is an absolute nailed on thing to happen. For us, as people, you know, whose job is to watch every single match, I'm not sure I'll be alive by the later rounds of a 64 team world cup, but I do kind of think this is inevitable. And I do kind of wonder if I was a pure, you know, casual fan. This wasn't my job. I do kind of wonder if I would be in favor of a 64 team world cup as just a cleaner format. Are we presuming it's happening in 2030, by the way? Are we thinking of 34 here? What's the, what's the time? 30, 30. Com the ball present has already said it's going to be a 64 team tournament in 2030. So that hasn't been confirmed by FIFA, but that is the definitely the way the wind is blowing. Okay. Well, that's amazing. I love that. That's brilliant. Theoretically, this might be going too far, but if we wait 128 teams, how does that affect the math for the US? Does it go the other way at that point? Because the post goes around the 64 then, isn't there? Yeah. There is. Fill on March madness. I mean, and you know, good chance against it to 32. I don't know. Depends on your draw. I'm just going to let that side raise a little bit. I mean, there's like you joke. And we're not, I don't think we could ever get to 128 teams. Who knows? Like, but then you're not far away from just doing World Cup qualifying. And I am sort of like, why not just make like World Cup qualifying a much bigger thing and make it more like high profile. And I feel like there's a way in which you could condense World Cup qualifying and make that like a pre-World Cup tournament. Then it self-satisfies that issue. I'm pretty sure I've written a lot of bleach ripple articles back in the day about how all qualifying should be condensed into a single tournament the previous summer. So World Cup qualifying is a tournament and then you have the tournament the following year. A pre-World Cup, World Cup. Yeah. But then you don't have the international breaks. You just get it all done at one go. You can make it high profile. Gianni can make money out of it. Everybody wins. Taylor, your point about qualifying reminded me of a social post that I saw in the days after the World Cup when everyone was talking about a 64 team tournament. It was a guy going, I can't remember who it was. Hear me out. How about we have regional sections before the World Cup in the three years before the four year World Cup. And yeah, it was basically what we have just now. But there is a way that you could. I really do think make that more interesting. And maybe I'll have to go back and read Ryan's listicles. Or were they just full on articles, Ryan? Well, then I haven't even listicles. That's how seriously YouTube. They were Facebook lives. High quality pros, they were Taylor. But yeah, I mean, I think there's a way you could do that that does then make it feel like they get bigger billing more often. I don't know. I don't want to give Gianni ideas because I also don't want a 200 team World Cup or whatever it would be. He's got enough ideas. He really does. He really does. And he's not short of bringing them to the forefront. Is he? There we go. Wonderful. Ian Brady, thank you for that question. A slightly different direction with this one from Trent McGivers. Spain benefits from a strong national identity for soccer. Given the history and playing styles of the USMNT, USWT, MLS, American sports culture, and the broader US mentality, what would a distinct and cohesive national soccer identity look like for the US? It's an interesting question Taylor. I don't think every nation has like a renowned playing styles that Brazil have one, Spain have one, Scotland have one, being dreadful, and you know, certain other, there's a few others, but it's not it's not prerequisite for the successful nation to have a pure identity at the national level. But if they did, what would it be? Interesting question. Yeah. It is strangely, I think that is very nice because I think you can bring players through the youth system and they kind of know the style that they will one day play most likely. It can also be a little bit of a poison chalice because then if a manager moves away from it, if they don't have the talent that allows them to play that specific way or the historical way, it tends to lead to a lot of frustration and backlash in the media. Brazil and the Netherlands are prime examples of that pretty consistently. And so I think like what it should be is a blend of the identity combined with a little bit of like aspiration. And I think largely that ends up with something close to what the US showed at this last World Cup. And I think that would work for both the men and women because we've seen with the explosion of women's game in Europe and around the world, other national teams, other leagues are catching up and are producing, I think as technical or sometimes more technical players with like greater individual ability. And so I think for the United States, US women like they could try to be Spain and go that route. But if we're going with a unified approach, I think it is something that is basically high intensity and physical. So there's pressing sprinting into counters, sprinting back into defense, getting stuck in as needed, not backing down from challenges, not playing with the kind of ego of we are above this, but happily getting into a street fight, if that's what it requires. But then also trusting individuals as individuals or as maybe small groups to provide sparks to provide individual combinations to create the goals. Because I don't think we are in a system, Greg Berhalter found this out in which the system itself can be the playmaker. We don't have the technical ability to be Spain. And so I think trying to be that would send the US down a very long torturous path that might end up being successful. So I think trying to blend those two into something like what the US had at this World Cup would be a good identity where it is fight and physicality, but it is also a little bit of technical ability and flare. And then overall the biggest thing, and this sounds very raura USA USA, which I am generally loathe to be, but I will say there is something to be said for American positivity and American mentality. And I think that might sound ridiculous, but it's the thing we hear about time and time again. People be visiting this summer talking about American positivity and just the American mindset, but also other coaches have talked about like like Piacentaga, like there really is something to this American dream. And I think Pocetino showed that this summer, there is a kind of belief in Americans that sometimes irrationally that like we can win, we can make this happen, we can be good enough to get this done. And sometimes that leads to disasters, sometimes it leads to like finding a way to win a World War II. And so like I think there is something to the mentality and positivity of Americans that you need when it comes to that national team, you need them to have belief and a collective spirit, because I think that is a thing that will elevate a good team into a great team. I like that, Taylor. You want something that kind of fits into the national identity as well, and sort of that fight and aggression, almost like a dominance. I mean, not in a positive way. I know you mean the American ethos, right? It's a positive big stick. Yeah, it's a happy big stick. Yeah, that reflected in sports, I think there's an intrinsic theme there as well. So I like that. Very good. Graham, any thoughts on this? Just what a question this is. I mean, this could be an entire series of podcasts. Never mind what, we got like 10 minutes, a 10 minute segment on one podcast like we're doing here. First thing to say is, and you can have got to this, Ryan, it's so difficult to have a distinct and cohesive national soccer identity as Trent puts it. It's an incredible, incredibly difficult thing to design. And so many countries have attempted to create something like that. And I reckon there's only like five or six that have actually managed it, Spain obviously being the gold standards and everyone's chasing that, but actually getting to that level is just, it's almost impossible. I say almost because the US with its population base and its resources, it is one of the few that feasibly could achieve it. But I think to provide any sort of answer on this, I'd have to know what sort of time frame we're talking about and what the absolute ambition is, right? Because if the ambition is for the US to become the strongest soccer nation in the world, then I think the focus has to be primarily on control through possession, right? Lots of touches of the ball, everything geared towards elevating the technical ability of the players you're producing. And there's nuance here, we need physicality as well. And that's going to take like several generational iterations to get through. Like that could be a 50 to 60 year project. That's if everything goes well and right for the US. Look at Spain. I mean, their current identity has its roots in, I mean, I think it has its roots in what Croix did as a player and a manager in the like 70s and 80s. So what Spain have now is like 50 years of deep rooted cultural repetition to get to this point. So if the US soccer doesn't have fit 40 to 50 years to play with, then I think it's pretty much what Taylor was speaking about. I think you have to build on the identity that already exists to a certain extent. The classic national team formula was and I found a paper, a coaching paper on the coach's voice about this. But they had the formula as defend, compete, run, transition, punish. And that's obviously talking about it in very rudimentary terms, but that, you know, that was the formula when the US made the quarterfinals at the 2002 World Cup. I think we saw a kind of like modern iteration of that from Potsino at this World Cup. And I think that's a pretty good framework to mesh the medium in the long term, even if it does kind of put a ceiling on what is possible 50 years from now. Because I think we see with other nations, Morocco was maybe the best example of this. Morocco made the semi-finals of a World Cup in 2022, playing a pretty similar game to what I've just outlined in. I think what Taylor was talking about as well. Now they are trying to become a tier one nation and they're trying to evolve into that position team with more technical players, technical creators who can create on the ball. And that is very, very difficult to do as we saw from them at this World Cup where they ran up against the France and they were just nowhere near that level. So I think this is just so difficult for the US to do. And I do not envy the people whose job it is and there are people in these positions at US soccer. It is to plot a route forward and settle on these things because it's almost impossible to actually pull off. Grant, who are the teams like we've run through them in various ways? Who are the teams that you do think have the identity? Because it feels like it is a very short list of Spain, the Netherlands and Brazil maybe. And then could you throw Croatia into that on the men's side potentially? Yeah, I think I maybe replace Brazil with Croatia. I think Brazil traditionally and historically were definitely on that list, but no, I don't really know what their identity is. I think Argentina have an identity. It's not one that rye and flakes, but they have settled on a pretty consistent identity over the decades. But yeah, there are very few particularly nations that are in tier one nations, right? Like if you go down the ladder, which are the countries and nations that have a clear style of play, I'm not sure there are any or are definitely many of them. So that's just tricky. Graham, I've got one more nominee for you. It won't happen for a while, but there is a team and I think it could be on the men's and women's side that does kind of develop into that philosophy and identity. We've talked about the before Graham. They have themselves a plan. Oh, Japan, 100 year plan. Yep. We are 30 years into their 100 year plan. So when you're talking that Spain have 40 to 50 years of an identity, Japan still have 70 years, man, to establish that identity. So you never know how quickly it could happen. I guess 100 years isn't really the timeline that we're looking for, but all the same. Japan could be on that list at some point. There's a few others and identities do evolve and change and stop as well. The one I think of is Norway, who had that very much Harlow's mystery formation, five at the back, going to one big man at the top. They kind of have that Elfhus was Harlow, but it's not the same as it was in the under-eggolossum or the previous managers where that was very much to this is a thing we do that no one else does and it kind of works. But they've just become a bit more homogenous now, I think. Yeah, and like I would have said in previous, if we'd had this conversation a few years ago, I probably would have said Uruguay, we're a country and a national team that had a clear identity. Now, going back to our previous discussion on this episode, I'm not really sure what their identity is, so these things can stop quite abruptly as well. Very good. Trent, don't you question. We're not sure it's really hard. Very much. That's it. Very good. Trent Medewis, thank you very much for your question. Tell you what guys, let's have a little pause when we come back a couple more World Cup questions for you. Join us then. Total soccer show, welcome back to our listener questions, couple more for you guys. This one from our Discord from Mustard Overlord. Mustard Overlord. What a handle. Wonderful. Love to see it. Inspired by the mention of the Robin van Percy header at the 2014 World Cup, one of the most truly unique one of one goals in soccer history, or at least that you can recall. Feel free to broaden this to saves or general moments if there aren't enough that come to mind. I think we can come up with enough of these ones, because I don't think we're limiting ourselves necessarily to the World Cup. We're not talking about the best necessarily. We're talking about the most unique. That makes me think, Graham, with things like the Eric Lamella Travella outside of the thing from the edge of the box. That one very unique. You don't see that every day. That's where I'll start us off. No, especially because this is the one that goes through the bodies. Occasionally, you will see a Travella from the outside of the box and it's a clean shot into the corner of the net. That Lamella one, I'm pretty sure, goes through the legs of at least... It's on the North London Derby, right? It's Arsenal, they're playing. It goes through the legs of at least one Arsenal player. That's a very good joke, right? It might even be, too. I think you're right. It is pretty iconic in that way. Yeah. I'll give you three other suggestions. So, Roberto Carlos for Brazil, I guess, François Liturnois. I'm sure that was it Liturnois. The way he goes around the wall with the outside of the boot, we obviously see goals every so often with the outside of the boot, but to get that much... What would you call it? Swaz. I'm using that term. To get that much swaz on the ball and to go that way around the wall as well, I'm not sure I've seen that sense, at least not to that extent. Another suggestion, Zlatan's overhead kick for Sweden against England, stupid that he even attempted it from that far out. What was he doing? Even more stupid that he actually pulled it off and it went in the back of the net. I actually think, maybe slightly controversial opinion here, aesthetically, I don't think it's a very pretty goal. There's not an overhead kick, but I've never seen a goal like it. It's the audacity. Sorry, Graham. It's just like, that's far out of the same list as you. It is the audacity of that attempt. It's not a aesthetically pleasing bicycle. I have one on my list that is. I think it's because it matches his identity so perfectly. It is the thesis statement of who Zlatan is. Was that in a World Cup? No, it was not because Sweden, but it was just a ridiculous attempt that he somehow pulls off and did so while making it look effortless. But all no one would think to do that. No one would think, yeah, you know what, overhead kick from here, that'll probably work out. It is a definitive Zlatan goal and that is why it is definitely on my list. Great call. I think it's a friendly against England, right? It's not even a competition game. So that tells you how memorable it is that it was an friendly and people still talk about that goal. And then the third nomination, I'm going to give you this. You say people talk about it, Graham. One person in particular talks about it a lot, but go on. Yes, on an international TV to Terry Henry. I think the Wilshire goal, speaking of Henry and Arsenal, I think the Wilshire goal for Arsenal against Norwich was truly unique as well. I'm talking about, yeah, like the one it's I don't think I've ever seen a goal scored with such zip between the passes in such a tight space. And then even the finish by Wilshire, which gets overlooked a little bit, it's kind of on the full volley, but a couple in she's off the ground. It's an insane, insane goal that I don't think has been replicated since. Yeah. I've got three more for you. I think when it comes to bicycle kicks, there are many, many, many, many, many nominees. But the Marco Van Bastin one remains like the gold standard for me. If people haven't seen that one, just Google Marco Van Bastin bicycle kick, you'll find it quickly. I think it's a weird point to make, but it's the short shorts that make his legs look even longer so that when he does the kind of full stretch bicycle, it just looks that much more impossible. But then it's also that he hits it so perfectly. It's not the shin. It's not like a weird part of the foot and it just happens to come off. It is perfectly struck and then it kind of like tings in off the far post with him fully up in the air. That is an iconic goal for me. And then like a more personal one is the Eric Cantina dribble drive and then chip where he just stops and chips it and it spins off the post and in combined with the just like, are you not entertained celebration? That also has strong lots on vibes. I feel like Cantina walked so his lot on could also sort of walk. But that goal is is a beautiful one. And then if we're talking truly unique one of a kind goals in soccer history, Graham, I'm going to say a name to you and I feel like you're going to know it right away. It's Chicharito. Oh, right. Yes. The face goal. His debut goal. It's a tap in. It's in like, I think it's in a maybe it's the community shield. For people who haven't seen it, it's like a ball like squared back to him. It should be a tap in, but it's played behind him. So he reaches for it like as he's running to get it with his foot and he does. And then he hits it off of his own face and it goes into the goal. But it counts. And it starts the legacy of Chicharito Manchester United. But rarely have I seen a player kick it into their own face and then have it go into the goal after that, which feels like it should be a goal and an assist for Chicharito. It's arguably the funniest goal of all time. It's amazing. I vividly remember watching that game and that goal. And even though he scores and it's and it's his debut goal. It must have been his debut game right. Of his community. Yeah, I believe it was. And he's he signed from he was at Shiva's right in Mexico, I think. And so he was an unknown, right? I hadn't heard of I hadn't heard of him before that game. Even though he scores that goal, the manner of the finish, I remember think to myself, oh, this guy's a clown. He's not he's not going to last long at Manchester United. And of course he has a very good career. And I was proven wrong on that. But it's a I don't think I've ever seen anyone find the back of the net via their own face in that manner before. That's why he tried. Remember when he had the one that he shot off the post in here. Yeah, I think was that celebration close. That was I think that was a celebration. Yeah. Which makes it worse. In a way. It does really. One more nomination. Taylor, I thought you were coming to me for for the hand of gods. Yeah. I mean, the clean header of gods. That's surely the most unique unique. And it was entirely legal. Yes. Correct. Thank you, Grape. Great nomination. There, there's a few from the 90s would be remiss of me not to take us back to the 90s a little bit more. Fire up the YouTube's kids. If you don't remember any of these, a safe gram or Taylor, remember these? Do you remember Philippe Albert in 1996 Newcastle against Man United? It's the chip for the lob from the edge of the box where Peter Schmeichel has never looked more stranded in his life. One of the most beautiful finishes you'll ever see. I think it was it was one of those four threes. Well, man, there might have been a big win for Newcastle that one. For Philippe Albert's goal there was brilliant. Another one from the 90s, traversing players overhead kick Taylor mentioned overhead kicks. Look this up. It's across the edge of the box, traversing player with the overhead acrobatic kick from the very edge of the box. I think it might have been an FA Cup game. He was playing for QPR. That's another one at one goal of the season that year. Traverson clear, by the way, is a coach at Sarasota Paradise in Florida. Now check him out very interesting club. I like this question a lot because it did maybe just like not do any research, but just go truly like what do I remember? What are the goals that I'm like, well, I will never forget that one. And that was my list, basically. So that the Rurakalus one is the one that comes first and foremost to mind that it's the one that I show anybody whenever they're like, man, that was a crazy goal. What are some other crazy goals? That is number one crazy. Number one crazy. Thank you, mustard overlord. We appreciate you. I for one welcome now, mustard overlord. One more question for this episode from Justin Haggerty. We all know some players show out and perform big at the World Cup earning them a big money transfer. All of us fans see this and wonder why because that form wasn't present in the regular season. Did the big clubs see something we don't? Why is this the case? What's their thought process? Take, I'm interested in this question because I think it's, I think I'm not sure if it's in the premise entirely holds water. Maybe in the past, you could have said there was a big player that round would rip would sign after a World Cup. Hammer's Rodriguez might be an example of that. He has an explosive World Cup scores. Ever a unique goal, actually, you might have mentioned him with the Chester Volley goal that he scored in 2014 and gets his deal. But when you look at say the big players who are going to come out of this World Cup, you deem on days and so on, they haven't just shown up at a World Cup and set the world like they've been doing it in their regular seasons as well. So do we agree with the premise of the question Taylor to start off with? I think I think your like footnote is a good one to add because it doesn't seem like it is as prominent, but it does still seem like it's a thing, hence the Giamonday point. And I think that is a good example to some extent of what we're talking about here where he is a player who has been doing at the Bundesliga. We've talked about him at length multiple times. But I think to the point of the question, when you then see him at the World Cup on a global stage with other different players and he still looks just as good, maybe that's where it becomes like, oh wow, everybody knew that guy. Everybody got excited about that guy. And we already know he was good. He was already in our kind of like scouting reports. So now we're going to like try to get him even if it means have it to spend a little bit more money because I do think ego is part of that from from owners and and like chief executives making signings. I think there is a like we're going to like buy the shiniest toy that was on display this summer and then our fans are going to be happy. We're going to kind of bring in the name that's going to generate some positivity and keep people feeling like this is going to be a strong season. So I think there is an element of that. But I also think to the the Giamonday point largely it's basically that like we it might be a player that we've seen before we know a little bit about or we've seen previously not look as good. But maybe that's at being at the wrong club or under the wrong manager or had bad teammates or the tactical setup didn't favor them. And so you can see them go in with their national team and just like shine in a way that they don't at club level or see aspects of their game that you didn't know were there because they're playing in such a different environment and such a different format that it can give you a larger sample size on a player than you might have already otherwise had. And so I think that is oftentimes the case that we see a player who is maybe playing for like a okay to good team in France that we're not watching a ton of but suddenly a body is a great example of that where I think a lot of people were scouting him. But then you see him just look completely comfortable for a Morocco midfield and a Morocco team that were very strong at this tournament. And suddenly you are going to maybe add some zeros to that amount that you're willing to pay for him because people know that name. He caught the attention. He was in the spotlight but he rose to the occasion and you have a larger sample size of what he's capable of at a higher level. So let's go ahead and make that deal happen if and when that deal happens. Yeah, I think that's the most common modern application of what I think Justin is getting at with it with his question. I think Manu Kone is a really good example of it from this world cup where he'd been liked with I'm sure Aston Villa. I'd seen we're looking at him maybe Chelsea as well. And so you put him in a France team where maybe before the tournament you don't think he's up to the level of the rest of his teammates. And then he performs up to their level. And so bigger clubs are now looking at him thinking all right, okay, well, we already knew this guy had potential and we now have more evidence that if we put him in a stronger team with better players around him, he's going to elevate his level. And so I think we see that more more often now after major tournaments. We don't really see a Carol Paborsky like the Czech player who scored it's speaking of unique goals actually that surely deserves a mention the chip at Euro 96. Yeah, like a breakout player in that tournament. I think played for one of the Prague teams before and he joined Manchester United and joins Manchester United and just clearly isn't up to that level. I think if that sort of thing still happened, Vizignia would be a Real Madrid player or a Manchester City player by now. He does actually have a new club. I wrote about it in the newsletter a Monday. He's sent for Kolo Kolo in Chile, which is a good move for him coming out of the Portuguese second division, but we don't really see that sort of nowhere player elevated to the elite level by a major tournament anymore. It just doesn't quite happen to the same extent. Yeah, I think yeah, the world's a smaller place. It's not like we can, when I was a lead and you watched the World Cup, there were players you'd never seen before and that simply doesn't happen anymore. I presume that's true for clubs as well. Who is the last player that like like we felt that way about like the amount to your point ran like we knew a little bit about we talked last season at a good level like is it hummus hummus might be the player that I feel like I didn't really know much about going into 2014 and then there he was like just running this Columbia midfield that was so exciting. I'm quickly giggling here to check the chronological order of things, but he'd already had a big move to Monaco. That was the Monaco. He'd gone for a lot of money to Monaco, so even that doesn't quite feel like you know what we're talking about. Yeah, he went to Monaco for 45 million euros in 2013, which 45 million in 2013 was a huge fee. But at the time, I mean, that's a Monaco team that have like the the Russian billionaire they're trying to buy with PSG, right? So even that on some level, like we weren't watching a ton of Monaco, not even people in Monaco were because they have, I don't know, yachts to live on. So like you see that's to be it. Exactly. And like maybe the last one, was it Danny Omo who broke through or was that in the euros when Danny Omo suddenly became a little part of Spain. And the year was also when got him. Yeah, but even there's a player who's like a known quantity from a European team. Good stuff. All right. And just so you know, Graham, for your reference, Karol Paborski, I'm a friend who lives in Bratislava and Slovakia. He does their Champions League coverage. He doesn't have to hear anymore. Sorry to say. Oh, no. Yeah. Does he have the lob, though? Still, can he still pull that off? I believe he does it in every every VT every episode he does. So yeah, they make him do it at the start. Yeah, just to prove his worth. Very good. Justin Haggity, thank you very much indeed for your question. Now we appreciate everybody who sent us a question. If you'd like to do so, you can go to totalsockershow.com slash questions. Or you can join our discord. Or all our friends are hanging out patreon.com slash total soccer show. We've got a bonus list in the question coming to our bonus feed about Unisimmon and where we rank him among the best goalkeepers. That question from Robocord over, you can flip over to the bonus feed if you'd like some more. But for now, take a rock well. Thank you very much indeed for your services. Thank you for mentioning for your service to my friend. Thank you very much to the Graham Rutherford. Thank you, Ryan Billy. And listen, thank you again for joining us on this one. We appreciate you. We're back on the feed very shortly indeed. But for now, we'll be back.