Brentford’s Recruitment Recipe & The Shift in Premier League Meta

Hi there and welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me Emma Payton. The Brentford have started the season on fire with their 3-0 demolition of Chelsea moving them up to fourth in the Premier League table. So how are they outperforming their big spending rivals and is there a ceiling on their success? Well here with us for our Tuesday club we've got the usuals, we've got James Horncastle here in the studio. Hello, good morning. Hello, Emma. Hello, we've got David Onstein down the line. Good morning David. Greetings from the far, how are we? We're good and that's a little treat. We are also joined in the studio by Tactics writer Liam Tharm. Welcome. Thank you. How are we all doing this week? Good week so far? It's just getting started. It's still summer, Emma. Is it? Have you not noticed? It's mild outside, I guess, yeah. Is it feeling summery and Manchester? It really is. The Northwest, the Costa del Solford. It's brilliant and the international break is here. So it gives us a sort of tiny bit of respite after the summer of all summers and then obviously that continued straight into the Premier League season. Normally there's an international break at the start of September. So a bit of a pause for breath, but the athletic FC doesn't stop. It certainly doesn't, not this podcast anyway. Right, let's get into it then. It's been some start hasn't it to the campaign for Keith Andrews side, unbeaten in five and impressive three-nil victories over both Tottenham and Chelsea. James, let's start by talking about Friday night then. What did you make of it? Because I just don't think many people saw that coming. No, although it has become the hardest place to go, one of the hardest places to go in the Premier League and I think you can say that the surprise is it's no longer a surprise because Brentford have a stability and a continuity about them that goes an awful long way and you mentioned those two three-nil shellackings. Tottenham and Chelsea, they're two of the clubs that have had the most flux and change over the summit in terms of coaching staff in terms of personal on the pitch as well and Brentford just know who they are and what they're about and I think when you come against the team that is so sure of themselves and what they have to do, you have to be really on it and if you're not, what happens is what happened to Chelsea on Friday night? Yeah, in terms of what is making them tick on the pitch then Liam, you've written about how they have three methods of attack when they face the top teams, headers, fast breaks and long throws might not be pretty all the time but it works and I mean they're nailed all three against Chelsea. They did, yes. The first time they'd scored from all three methods in one Premier League game that the long throw part is a bit of a technicality because it was a charter long throw that got cleared but the all-knowing providers at Ops are kind of measure it in terms of time so it's something that's about up to eight or ten seconds after the throw comes in and it's still measured as in that sequence but yeah, I think you go to Brentford as James says you know what kind of game you're going to get. I've done this for a number of years now. I mean they've only lost three times at home on Ducky Tanger's in Premier League. And that's unbelievable that's that isn't it? They've drawn quite a lot that would be a fair critique and that did end up costing them European football last season but yeah I think the Premier League has kind of moved in the direction of Brent for in terms of being you know physical, man-to-man in the press, being direct at times and the importance of set pieces that I think it's there if you can't beat them join them with Brentford. Something about a Friday night at the GTEC as well isn't there? Yeah they've got optite of great stuff about I think they've won six of seven Friday night games in the Premier League at the GTEC which is like the best record by a team on a given day in the Premier League and it's great. I mean I was down on Friday and it's like the atmosphere was just kind of bouncing by the end of it. Chelsea were in that game for about an hour as well. It was quite a soggy game for large parts but I think Brentford are very good at. They're quite an attack heavy team, they have been for a number of years, they're not super defensive, they walk and see goals but they really kind of push players forward and when they did break Chelsea open they just they just kept going and then they can set off teams, counter attack, get the second goal, they can be really ruthless and punish sides. I do think that's interesting what Liam said there that the Premier League has kind of moved towards Brentford maybe more than any other team because if we look at the current champions Arsenal, Arsenal are heavily influenced by Brentford in terms of coaching personnel, be it Nicholas Hover for set pieces, be it their goalkeeping coach as well, even some of their signings, they're kind of very Brentford coded and so as much as we like to look at our tetas being part of this pet quadriola paradigm or coaching tree, really in sort of style of play, you can see maybe as many if not more shades of Brentford in Arsenal's football then you do say Pep City or something like that which is it's remarkable when you think about it and it's not it's something that I think people are aware of but don't talk about enough about how this team has really effect helped affect a shift in what is expected of Premier League football these days. Brilliant point and that that's on the pitch but off the pitch David it is their recruitment that really stands out and it has done for some time now. They have constantly lost their best players over the years over the windows whether that is Brian and Burmo, Yoann Whisser, Oli Watkins, Ivan Tony, I mean the list goes on doesn't it but it's the fact that they've been able to just replace them with some real quality we've talked on various different podcasts over the last few weeks about Senk Sangare this summer you think about Tiago Shade etc. What is the secret behind their recruitment? Well Brentford along with Brighton maybe you could say Bournemouth to the 3Bs. One of these success stories of the Premier League era I think they're turning into now. Gruber James no surprise it's not a shock anymore and results like that are going to come to be expected if they're not already because it's a hugely impressive operation at some of these clubs and Brentford right at the forefront of it and really it's been a fair retail story since Matthew Benham took control of his owner for majority I think 2012. This is a club that was collecting money in buckets to survive and made their way up for the leagues with intelligence, with hard work, with a real united sort of vision and clear thinking on what they wanted to do and how they wanted to do it. I think at the centre of that is Phil Giles who's the sporting director and he's really Matthew Benham's man he works for him outside of Brentford as well and you know he's lauded throughout the industry and I think a lot of people other clubs probably look at him but I think the bond is too tight I'm sure he's really well remunerated too and I don't think he would get that sort of power and authority and control elsewhere and he's been able to with Matthew Benham and others there. Really embark upon a project set out a clear vision identity values on how they want to do things on and off the pitch. They brought in Lee Dykes as technical director he he heads up the recruitment originally you remember there was sort of co-sporting directors Phil Giles and Rasmus Ancasson who later went on to Salampton and elsewhere he was full of ideas Rasmus Ancasson Lee Dykes came in with real recruitment experience and that has been the real appointment I think that's helped kickstart what you talk about there and thank you Emma for going through the list of players because I've lost count of them now the amount that have been sold at good prices but then they've used that money to recruit not just one replacement often it's been two or three it's a spectacular list if people go through it year by year since around 2019 2021 and so on. You could say maybe that they you didn't feel they upgraded at the time but it has come to pass that they actually ended up doing better and that's because all of these players fit into a really clear system but what has blown me away from the conversations I've had is how methodical the recruitment is in terms of the meetings the presentations and everybody says Brentford is just the data model like Brighton and some others that that's not the case I think the the the eye you know watching of talent and the human touch is probably more important than I appreciated there it's also more prevalent and so you know they're getting to players really early and I've heard a few stories of how some of the other clubs or so-called bigger clubs have got to the agents and clubs of players they want to sign and the deals are already done with Brentford they've moved a rapid pace and they get to know the players inside out in their presentations they really focus on the objective the subjective where they can improve I think critical analysis they don't focus on why you shouldn't join other clubs I think they focus on what Brentford can do for that player in terms of their footballing career their future where they might go on to they're not afraid to project what clubs they might be suited to later on the financial side of things is massive of course and they do pay quite well and so you might be able to pay a relatively unknown player more at Brentford for a couple of years than the salary they would go in on at say like a Manchester United or a Chelsea and I think that's a really interesting element to all of it and this sort of clear vision I think people maybe overcomplicate it it's it's maybe not the rocket science science that some clubs make it out to be and so they know exactly who they want what they want they've got forward planning like you wouldn't believe they they have players and agents in the building in one transfer window but they're not doing deals for the there and then they're doing deals for future transfer windows and the the forward planning is is said to be remarkable so clearly they've built a really good scouting structure they're good at executing it so obviously it's filled y'all's you know heading up the structural side of things on the sporting side lead digs on recruitment with in these presentations the manager so it was Keith Andrews the head coach at the moment previously it was it was Thomas Frank and they seem to be doing an amazing job and there's so many more elements we can go into yeah and I think the way they use data is smart it's often kind of data tells you who to not sign as much as who to look for if you use that to filter at the start but that is an only part of the process you need the human element there's an interview that resurfaced a while ago from Boimo talking about how Brentford came to him with saying they had scouts I think that someone like 20 or 25 as matches this was in you know in in back when he was in France and kind of the sheer depth they gone into with this dossier of kind of saying here's your strengths here's your weaknesses here's how we can kind of platform your strengths and here's how we can improve your weaknesses that they're so so diligent with that and I think they've even been smarter shopping in the English leagues as well when you look at they've taken numerous players from Liverpool Van den Berg and Kelliher they've made smart buys their keenless potter from from whole these are just being aware of players that are on your own shores that are either in the division the division below and so to not always kind of going to the most far-flung markets and going to Ecuador or Japan it can be who's right on your doorstep yeah it's interesting we were talking on the podcast yesterday about Brentford and Brighton and we touched on their recruitment and how there often seems to be more more hits the misses with with these players that they bring in and Kerry's talked about these clubs maybe there's less pressure and maybe there is a little bit more patience afforded to to some of these clubs I mean we were talking about Brighton's result over over Arsenal and even Fabian Herzler as manager for example the fact that there were question marks around him earlier on this year but look at him now everyone's talking about him and maybe it is there is there something in that that you are yes afforded patience but there is a little bit less pressure as the likes of San Gare going to Brentford this summer we've spoken about this podcast well Manchester City were bringing midfield as Manchester United why why wasn't he someone that they were targeting yeah I think there is definitely something to be said about being away from the spotlight not having the same media scrutiny as the big six clubs have but I would go back to what David was saying these are clubs that in the narrative around Premier League football I talked about as data first clubs that is their identity and that is not the full story with these clubs they are incredibly meticulous and well prepared when it comes to player care and when it comes to culture so David talked about those presentations that they do and Brighton do the same would Brighton it's like you're on the Thames League you're next to Gatwick you are practically in London you're not in London you're so close exactly and the psych evaluations that these clubs do as well in terms of understanding the background of the player the personality of the player I think there was a story around one of the players that Brentford signed where one of the recruitment team called up the manager of the restaurant that this player would go to to see to try and understand his habits and what he was like okay there's no data points for that there's no data points telling me that Emma Payton when she goes for dinner she always has mozzarella as her like start to tell you what does that tell you about me my very heart out of this yeah so there are all these things and I think it's the culture that they have been able to create at these clubs which the players leave all the executives leave you've seen for example Chelsea take Paul and Stanley Sam Jewel they take all of the kind of a lot of the Brighton executive personnel transplant them in Chelsea but Chelsea are not Brighton they don't have the same results or something like that and I think they're very very good at creating a culture in which people can thrive and I think Kurt's a little talked about this with Brighton as well how some of the senior players went to him and said look we can't play this pressing style all the time you need to compromise a little bit and he he listened to them and that's because of the environment there where you're encouraged to engage with people listen take that feedback on board and it makes you a stronger team and a stronger football club as a consequence and I think that is constantly overlooked and underplayed with Brentford and Brighton because everyone just think it's spreadsheets that win in these games that's algorithms that are the best thing for them and that is that does give them an edge but it's only a part of the story yeah and just because you talked about personnel also what's even more staggering with the Brentford story is the fact that you know Thomas Frank left to a year ago and went to Tottenham and there was such talk at the time everyone I think predicted going into that season that Brentford would be in the bottom three when you watch them playing now you can see the similarities under Andrews to what was there under Frank the blueprint is so similar because as we're saying they're smart about the players that they bring in also about how they adapt and work with different players so you can look at someone like Kevin Sharda who is kind of this half-winger half striker being used out on the left for his pace in behind the way they kind of dovetailed and this one and way more before the overlap they've had with different strikers and the striker partnerships as well and I'm even looking at the team now I'm thinking if you go to Jago leaves the succession plan is probably already there Sharda goes some wing to number nine Keen Lewis Parties has been a phenomenal converter leftback probably goes to be a wing I like he was off the left and then you bring in Jufe at left back so it's not I think other teams where they might wait for players will be a lot later in terms of how they respond to a player leaving or being ready to leave I think Brentford are probably at least a season ahead of that it kind of gives me the fashion designer kind of vibes of you know always being a season ahead well they're ready for that to happen yeah David I don't know what your intel is on that but they do always seem to have their succession planning just down to a tee don't they yeah that that all goes back to the the structure and I think a really key point here is that the sporting leadership are in full control of the sporting side of matters at Brentford and so those guys that I mentioned the Phil Giles lead yikes at the moment Keith Andrews previously Thomas Frank they're in charge of this it's not executives that sit in board rooms who are setting the sporting strategy and getting involved in things and you know and that does happen elsewhere and and and I just want to say that's why in part some of these executives and coaches might not work elsewhere I was talking with a friend you can't just pick necessarily Fabian Herzler up from Brighton and put him into Manchester United and come on and they've tried that now you know Eric ten harg succeeded at iax man United picked him up it didn't work there and Ruben Amarim succeeded at sporting club picked him up didn't work at Manchester United and the point is that these clubs have instituted a whole structure around what they believe is going to work they've then bought in the data and the eyes and the personnel a very high level to be able to execute that and as you're saying there that includes early movements in the market on coaches bringing in coaches that match the profile of the players and the squads and that's how partly how Herzler is doing well at Brighton and and Eryola did a Bournemouth maybe the Manchester United and whoever of this world who who are struggling there may be printing in very capable coaches but not necessarily having recruited for that or any vision and system and visions change with the change of sporting directors so you know that that's an absolutely sort of massive factor in all of this and and I just want to go back to the coaching point Keith Andrews had never been a head coach before this is he he is a coach in terms of he was working as a set piece coach Brentford appointed to replace Thomas Frank somebody that had never been a head coach before if that's not testament to the structure and the system and and how well prepared he was in what Brentford want to do and how they go about their work and how influential those sporting executives are on setting this whole tone and I'm sure if he's to go in a slightly less good direction they'll bring him back like this is really singing and dancing very impressively and then again it comes back to Liam's point there about getting ahead of things early and and even the point the guys made earlier about about the presentations was it Nathan Collins who gave an interview saying Brentford knew me better than I knew myself so of course every club does presentations they're not the first to do presentations but they're doing them earlier better more methodically hitting the right notes than some of the other clubs James talks about some clubs with like multiple sporting directors and technical directors maybe there's a case elsewhere for too many cooks and and it's very clear at Brentford who's doing what and they've been there for a long time so they must be happy content well paid loyal to the project and this continuity means it's no coincidence that they're getting things right both on and off the pitch you've seen Brentford in the last year or so take outside investment on more than one occasion but that's to help grow the club bringing other ideas on the commercial side take them to new frontiers but Matthew Benham remains in control full control of the club and they don't touch the football side at all those that are appointed to do that are getting on with their work and and that sort of continuity that sustainability is so impressive their finances are in good shape as well it's kind of in many ways the model of what other clubs should look to replicate now I know I listen to Kerris talking about the pressure and the environment at such a good point and James they're talking about the spotlight of course it's different elsewhere expectations and and in Brentford Brighton Bournemouth we're not talking about teams that are picking up or or necessarily challenging for pieces of silverware so we've got to remember this is all relative but in terms of the way they're operating there are many other clubs that really should take a leaf out of their book and learn from some of their processes and practices what do we think would happen if they went on a bad run under Keith Andrews because there's a feeling from the outside looking in they wouldn't be panicking would they no I think it depends how bad the run is if they're being battered like three or four nil you know we can wake out that might start a conversation but I think not sacking coaches it's kind of a theme under under Brighton as well that I think you have to you have to about years what's been said last I mean deservedly left in kind of mutual consent but yeah in general sticking by coaches kind of trusting partly because then it means your tactical ideas kind of remain the same and that is one of the big parts for integrating players successfully is it's really easy to do that because they know them what their job is and what their responsibility is and you're then just dropping one new player into a team where that team is well established if you then take say spurs or Chelsea now where they keep having kind of a churn of coaches all those players all at once are trying to learn a whole new style and then form relationships that's a lot to ask for a team all in one go yeah it can be done but I think it's a lot harder to do where so Brentford you look at okay already strong established relationships even in the Chelsea win they're starting their third and fourth choice center back it's used to the summer signing and an aya who are really good physical pairing but Vandenberg's out injured Nathan Collins is out injured and they have replacements that are similar in terms of okay their physical guys they can duel they can step out they're a threat at set pieces but we don't even notice that drop off with Brentford or even bright into an extent in the arson win because they're kind of backup players or they're not like depth players but not the first choice guys are really really suited to the style just as much as the first choice place someone like a chimera andras you can just slot in which is what we see with with these sides what what's the what's the ceiling then on what Brentford can achieve well I don't think there's any reason why they can't get into a European competition and then challenge in that European competition if it's conference league if it's Europa League you know I don't see why they can't do what palace have done or what yeah Chelsea have done in in those second and third tier UEFA competitions I think what's another important element to this story is Matthew Benham talking about how the TV revenue kind of changed their model in that you know sort of 10 years or 12 years ago you all of Sunsaw Premier League starting to go to another level when it came to what they were making from domestic but particularly international TV rights and yeah that has allowed them to sort of overcome some of the limitations of being a small club which is you know terms of stadium not making great gate receipts even they've moved into the GTEC commercial not going to attract big commercial partners because okay they're a London club one of the smallest London clubs and so they've they've overcome these by just gaming the transfer market and they've over they've overcame it as well by being by being a Premier League club you instantly become one of the richest clubs in the world and Liam mentioned Christopher Iyer I remember AC Milan wanted Christopher Iyer and and he he went to Brentford instead they couldn't they couldn't compete with with what Brentford were able to bid for the player and so just by being an established Premier League club and having access to that money and the way in which they spend it I think they should be they should be able to compete to win stuff not the Premier League but certainly one of those second third tier competitions a caribou maybe even FA Cup there's no reason why they they can't do that so um yeah we'll we'll see what happens I mean I'm curious because people overlook the fact that when Keith Andrews was promoted from set piece coach to head coach it was also in the summer when they lost Whissa Embwemore norca just just losing those players even if Thomas Frank had still been around you'd be like it's a lot of change that's a lot of change so to change the head coach and lose your two best goal scorers at that moment and and then have your best ever Premier League season it does go to show that with more continuity and and and continuing to follow this model and doing better and better and better there's no reason why they can't lift so well all of this provides an amazing calling card for then the next players of the next staff members or executives that they're interested in it's a spectacular proof of concept um James mentions Ia there you know what about Jordan Henderson he was wanted by Porto and Farioli who was his coach at Iaxe I mean I don't know if you prefer Porto to West London a bus stop in Houndslow but many people would and uh no Jordan Henderson was sucked in by the now infamous presentation and I'm sure he would vouch for how attractive the proposition was and um so it's it's one after the next here it's becoming a real succession and you know Liam's talked about a lot of the player profiles and and then recruiting it for exactly what they need they're also ready a lot of them they're ready to impact and that's slightly different from Brighton as well that we're not seeing many players go out on loan and and take a securitus route that Brentford is a clearly identifying players early a long time in advance for what they need whether it be pace whether it be physicality whether it be transitional play Brentford have actually shown the value in waiting not necessarily if they don't get what they want and you know um Antonio Nusa was another one he he set to join them it was a medical where it went wrong but some of the biggest clubs in the Premier League if you if you remember back to that time and you can check it out in the reporting we're all over Antonio Nusa again it comes back to the proof of concept that they're they're ready to impact now they're ready to play they're being paid accordingly all of the points that James mentioned the the um the player care element of things it they've hit a real sweet spot and that looks like it will serve them well into the future and talking of the future it'll be really interesting to see how they develop their own players as well very um famously talked about the B team um I don't know if it's now called the 21s but they've placed more emphasis on the youth I think the the the most notable player that's come through so far yes he was signed at a young age but he's coming into the first two team is um Yarmuliyuk um and I think we're going to start to see some more of that nature as well so this is a really multifaceted success we we talk to some of the clubs in the Premier League being a failure of many fathers but this is turning out to be a I don't know a success of many sons I think that you two in points in their evolution is now really important because when Brentford were coming into the Premier League um they were sometimes scared off some of the opportunities to sign players really early so to take Michael Elisei for example I think there was there was an opportunity to sign Michael Elisei but they looked at the agent fee and they were just like no we absolutely not we're not paying this we we don't know whether there will be a Premier League club next year was now that they're established I think they can get some of the best young English London talent and they're obviously very they're obviously very prepared to go after that now and they can they cannot park them in their B team but certainly put them there prepare them for the first team in a way that I think they were maybe a little bit hesitant hesitant to do in the past um so if another Elisei comes along I'm sure they they would be quite confident paying him having a place in a pathway for him and uh that's important because I think some of those other London clubs who've often felt like they've had the pick of of the best London talent or Palace certainly made it a big part of their identity I think Brentford are there now to go after that um and if you're a young player you can see why you would choose to go and play for for Brentford um because of all the the the multifaceted things that go into that football club and them knowing where their place in the food chain is it's like we will prepare you for your the big move that you want in your career yeah and talking to the succession planning as well and and even maybe an inspiration for the young and senior players alongside Keith Andrews is none other than Damien Duff he's come in as his assistant he was doing really well coaching in Ireland so maybe they've even got succession planning in in that dugout already with somebody I'm hearing good things about so keep an eye on him and just in terms of what James says on competing in in London in even wider areas um these guys that I've mentioned before the the dials is and the dikes of this world they're not um they're not shrinking violets that they're said to be really good negotiators and tough in the talks and um high level deal makers I mean Phil Giles is more from Matthew Benham's world and he's worked for smart odds the data got sorry the gambling company uh football was not really his background but he's become very adept um and and brilliant structurally and with the numbers and leads on a lot of the negotiations sodas dikes in terms of the torts club to club on deals in um with the agents with with the other club and deals out you'll remember the um Brian and Buomo transfer to Manchester United I think that they started at around 50 million pounds united um and it went up to sort of the 70s by the end and and they got a good deal and and actually had a better season afterwards Brentford um and you've got good people on the sort of club front as well John Varni chief executive uh I think he had an RFU background as well um are you saying they're a rugby team this is this is what he's coming back to isn't it all like you know the chairman Cliff Crown who I think possibly Matthew Benham's accountant so there's all sort of links but there's uh he he's very um closely involved in Premier League circles in the Premier League meetings and sits on committees and so on and so forth so it's a remarkable skill set that at senior and now youth level as James refers to there um is definitely moving in the right direction it is time now for ask Ornstein as we hand the floor over to you the audience we asked our subscribers on the athletic to send in your questions for David so let's get into a few of them now David are you ready for these born ready right you really sound it this is from live on m who says with spurs owners reportedly injecting another 120 million pound into the club do you anticipate that they will make significant signings in the January transfer window it's not just reported they have injected further funds into the club the Lewis family trust and that's for a number of areas running costs cash flow day-to-day um upkeep uh and also I guess recruitment player salaries and so on so the transfer market is part of that um they've already invested quite heavily um for the first time in what 25 years and uh we saw a spectacular summer and they seem intent to continue trying to improve the squad will that happen in January what January's not a good market at the best of times um and you saw a year ago having sort of retaken control out after Daniel Levy's departure it was just kind of Gallagher that came in um and there was a departure of Brennan Johnson he wasn't replaced so it doesn't tend to be a particularly busy window um also everybody saying they need a striker well are there any names that are coming to the fore as being realistic candidates um there weren't many around in the summer so you imagine they'll be even harder if that's the position Tottenham do want to recruit in in January so I would say like there's not um to my knowledge a decision not to recruit there's always possibilities and there's so many factors and circumstances between now and January so I wouldn't rule it out but I don't know of sort of concrete plans to really hit the market hard again for those reasons January's hard they did a lot in the summer they will probably do quite a bit more next summer and also there's a significant factor of players coming back from injury so we're talking the likes of Kulisevsky, Odobur um they've got um the return of Kudus and James Madison is relatively recent and you know there's not much squad space so for players to come in some will have to depart um what's going to happen with Rachelison is he going to be reintegrated um which would require a space in itself or will he leave um so there is quite a lot that needs to happen internally you think at Tottenham in January and I don't know of a massive January coming it doesn't mean to say there won't be some activity um and clearly um with the owners putting more money in there is the means to do so if they feel the right opportunities and the need is there David mentioned them having a spectacular summer it's not been the spectacular start to the season that a lot of Spurs fans would have been wanting has it? No and I know last week when we discuss this David provided some more context on who signed who but I still think Roberta Dezerby had an incredible influence on that transfer market okay and the Robertson you know was I think already David was reporting last January with someone that they were looking at obviously Savio was someone as well but the large part of that team this year has been recruited by Roberta and I just wonder how much influence he would have into next January if results continue to turn this way I think yeah if you're if you're the top of the club you would think okay you've had you you've had you shot the window we're going to have a little bit more great to control over it so I think um you know and they spent a lot of money yeah I know we think there's a um magic money tree in uh in the Premier League and it does often feel like that way but sometimes clubs have to be like well we've spent a lot in the last summer so we can have to make do with what we've what we've got that's where you have to show um your ability is a coach that's why we pay you so much as a coach you know you you you have to um you know it's it's like a tailor you know cut your cloth accordingly um so so yeah well let's see let's see um we've got another question sent in from Joshua B who this is a bit of a lengthy one so I'll get through it quickly who says rarely do you see management get sacked before coaches managers so meaning I guess higher I get the club however in this case could you see Wilcox or Barada go considering he says I mean the common denominator in this dumpster fire is the glaciers with inios being fuel for the fire managers have been sacked players have been bought and sold united still in capital letters can't seem to get it right it is incredibly frustrating as a supporter I want to see them consistent and work hard let alone win titles nice and succinct thanks Joshua um well there's already been some churn at executive level since Sir Jim Ratcliffe took sporting control because Dan Ashworth came and went Christopher Vavelle came on I think an interim basis then became permanent around recruitment um I'm not sure how long his contract runs for so I don't know if there'll be any change on that front I see the same room as is everybody else online regularly maybe this links back to the conversation we've just had on Brentford of sticking together over a longer period of time um to try and bring about progress and change I don't know if Manchester United will I suspect they will they seem to be backing at Barada and Wilcox as far as we know um of course there'll be pressure there's pressure Manchester United there's pressure most clubs and and probably more so at Old Trafford given their history given what has come before and clearly mistakes have been made not all has gone smoothly um personally I'm not sure about the wisdom of further chopping and changing unless they identify fundamental problems in the people that they've appointed themselves let's not forget um and everything we've talked about on Brentford today um has been about sort of continuity and sticking together and working with a clear vision and identity to try and bring about long-term results and if Manchester United make more changes now with more changes is going to become different identity and direction and values you imagine if it is deemed that is needed then fair enough but you know then I mean even the ownership need to be looking at themselves for putting these people in in the first place and that's a gym rack clip on the sporting side and it's the glazers who are obviously still very closely involved in stuff at Old Trafford and we mustn't forget that so um I guess you can't rule out changes just because things aren't going well but um I I think it's really interesting you know there's been a lot of focus on Michael Carrick and you know are they going to change another coach again like of course that may happen because the nature of football is the easiest person to dispense with is is the coach or manager and I'm sure he'll be feeling the pressure I just don't know what wisdom there is in keeping chopping and changing the coach and the manager um and expecting things to improve maybe it's time for Manchester United to get more out of you know they've spent significantly even though there's still a desire among the fan base to bring in a left back and work on this area and that area and I'm sure improvements can be made clearly but when we talk about the successive clubs like we have today the common denominator is them actually coaching better being better executives um working harder at that vision staying resilient and and looking for the continuity that tends to bring progress so I can't predict it but um I don't know of changes coming at the moment but what have you made of Manchester United on the pitch just with your sort of analytical head on and I think really comparing United's first five games of this season compared to the second half of last season yeah I think we saw the perfect man United Performance and Carrick's first game right in that city win all the way back in in January um they need to kind of decide what kind of team they want to be they're trying at times to be a high-pressing team and like fill them play through them quite easily um bright and as well managed to kind of force them into turnovers and and problems um and it's hard to know what kind of direction they should go in because there's players in that team when you look at Rashford and Boimo um even can you to an extent that work really well in big open spaces in transition Bruno for Nana's of course is perfectly suited to to that as well but you look at the stats and since Carrick's took over um they're uh joint bottom for final third regains with full and that's of Premier League teams um over last season and this season as well so since January ever present teams and they've had the most fast break chances so they are a team that are really really good and on on the break they've been strange at times this season because they put up a lot of shots and at times they're shooting from positions which I've got a whole wise cup playlist about 30 examples in this because it's that prevalent um this is what I do find in my yeah um my therapy um where there there's situations where this could be two lemons can your finanders it's not just one person they're shooting at moments where you go surely across us on here you've got two or three bodies in the box or you know sesco's been brought off the bench for these moments um so that part of my confusing where I go is that a lack of kind of coaching in the final third is that a lack of solutions that they've worked on the training ground of kind of deliberate routes to goal or organized patterns or is that players just taking it upon themselves to go I think this is the best moment kind of all the best things to do in this situation and I don't think either of those are great kind of reasons that to be happening either and the results are obviously particularly bad and there's the set about how you know bad to start the seasonists for them going back a number of years and but I think there's details in the performance that the underlying numbers kind of look okay but a lot of their good attacking output came in that big episode and I think almost half of their expected goals and so they're high ranking for a lot of things but I go I'm not convinced that suddenly means they're going to hit a point where they're just scoring goals and this is really just a team that's under firing an attack I think there are some issues there high ranking for some stuff but not the running stats no no but then so this is the funny point because actually in the film game I thought the bigger issues came when they did try to press the press is really uncoordinated there are times where two lemons and manu are trying to jump onto the full of my field is they're way too late in doing it there's times where a film are quite easily kind of passing around the more passing through them actually when they dropped off and kind of sat in that block a bit more I know Gary never absolutely hated them kind of walking I thought they were generally better they're worse than passing to the pockets that film still kind of got away with and managed to play through but I thought that is probably where united a better at defending currently and they're not great they're not kind of one of the top teams to be able to sit back in you know this wasn't kind of howling the early game weeks or a burn for the time so you can really kind of sit deep but I think when they do try and go out teams and press the physical intensity and the coordination just isn't there yet and that might take time one to get players fit and two to coach kind of the principles and the triggers for you know strike a jumping okay midfielder they needs to come with and you know all the players behind that but I do think currently they are better actually the more they sit off rather than press teams okay right finally this is the bit everyone's been waiting for I think David you have got a brand new series dropping on the athletic this weekend it is called truth or paddle and I'm going to get you to tell us all about it in just a moment the first here is a clip from David's game with Gary Neville which of the spice girls would you have married I can't answer that you've got the opportunity to win the point and avoid answering it how have you got that back that's very basic play sorry Emma I'm about to tell the world which spice girl I would have married it's good to be by a process of elimination this will Victoria obviously not usually David he's sporting not because he sports of a pool oh yeah that's it so we can't that would be a challenging sort of moment so there'll be Jerry or Emma baby spice I think back in the day I think I said that sort of baby spice was my favorite I mean David this is not right there's something just very uncomfortable stomach churning about this you can't support scary spice because it's your yeah let's get some leads I think Jerry tried me today just generally would take baby spice do you have something she's called Emma my wife's called Emma that's a nice Emma I love you you're talking to you there I'll take it that is brilliant really looking forward to this tell that tell us how it works out we feel like you're we're combining your two loves here we've got we got football chat and we've got paddle very simple concept we've brought some football figures together and we play a little game if I win the point they have to answer a question if they win the point they get to avoid the question and yeah it's all done over a light hearted game of paddle and then we sit down and have a chat about a number of other topics we've got some good guest lined up and hopefully some more in the future so I don't want to give too much away but keep your eyes peeled on Saturday David if you lose the point can't they spin the point the question back to you like you know what would your who yeah who would who would you marry among the spice well well well well where to begin with that area my only my only admission would be that I shouldn't really say this on air but I used to be a big fan of the spice girls to be honest yeah I had the spice girls poster on my wall admission of the day there's nothing wrong with this day so I think there was a birth they were I'd asked for rollerblades and extremely naughty I looked in my parents cupboard to see what they had bought me and how good these rollerblades were if they had indeed bought them for me and there was a box with rollerblades there in the cupboard but they were spice girls rollerblades and so I had to confess to my dad that I had seen his purchase and is there any chance we could buy a different pair of rollerblades rather than the spice girls one yeah I was in the fish and ardo I guess he would have to be sporty because I've always worked in the sports industry so Mel B it's over to you you you could mel see no C's borty as well see yeah yeah yeah Mel B scary yeah I can't also I can't also say I should have should have worn the rollerblades yeah and guys thank you for your company I'm looking forward to that really looking forward to I do win do you win most of the games are you allowed to tell us that on the series Gary was Gary was easy work I put him to the sword yeah I've been waiting for years to get one over on him so that was good fun the others are relatively evenly matched more in my favour but one was particularly tough so yeah you better tune in because you'll either see me that's a good tease a world of celebration or a world of pain guys thank you so much for your company this morning thank you to you for watching or listening as well make sure to keep across the athletic for all the latest and we'll be back tomorrow see you then