Anatomy of a Breakdown: VAR Failure, Tactical Stagnation, and Premier League Officiating

Hello and welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me, Emma Payson. Erling Harlan's contentious goal was enough to see City win the Manchester Derby. In a statement post-match, ProRef confirmed the goal should not have stood, so where does this leave VAR, and with just four points from four games, is pressure building on Michael Carrick? Well joining me in the studio, we have former England goalkeeper Rob Green, good morning, good morning, and the Athletic's Carrick's Jones, who's looking very fresh. Considering you're a posterer, I've had a manager's time. I was about to say that. I mean, you look fresh. Thank you. I appreciate that. How you've done on the train at 6am. Yeah, it's looking good, girls. Looking good. And I see you brought a proper long today. Yes, I brought my orange book, which is everyone's favourite friend. Isn't it? Moments like this, this is where you need it. For those on audio, this is the refereeing guidance handbook, which is always the sign of a really fun episode. Yeah, it's going to be great, guys. In a party, it's in my house, and it's crazy. Well, it was an eventful afternoon, wasn't it, at Old Trafford. Before we get into it here in the studio, they're watching it for us, was the Athletics Manchester United Correspondent, Laurie Whitwell. Hi guys, yes, I'm outside Old Trafford, where I've just been in Michael Carrick's press conference, where he was seething about the award of Man City's decisive goal for Erling Harland, ruled on side. But more to the point, Enzo Fernandez being ruled inactive in the middle, despite diving for the ball, six yards out, despite Lesandre Martinez having to come across and try and stop him. Yeah, it was something that Carrick pointed out, so he couldn't get his head around the fact that the officials awarded that goal. That's what they said to him, that he was not interfering with play, but Michael Carrick said that all the layers they've got, all the offices they've got, all the technology they've got, and they come to this decision, is very worrying, is how he termed it. He said that if he was giving an apology by the referees over this point, if there's more dialogue, he didn't give that much consideration, he said, yeah, I look forward to that one. So clearly very angry. Obviously, there's issues for the United to fix themselves. They're playing against Tenman for a long time. Weren't they able to break City down properly, and that is something that they'll have to address because the pressure will now increase after this result against Man City's Tenman. Laurie mentioned there how Michael Carrick would be looking forward to an apology from the officials over that decision to allow Erling Harland's goal. Well, on Sunday evening, pro-ref issued an apology saying the officials made an error of judgment in allowing the goal to stand. You were there as well. What did you make of it when you were sitting there in the stadium? Yeah, so I was in the stand, so obviously it was a very classic sort of situation where because Michael Oliver didn't go to the screen. We had no explanation while we were there in the stadium, and it was such a long check that you sort of assumed you weren't, okay, there must be kind of a second player involved here. It doesn't take this long to draw the lines and see where Harland is and where Dorgu is, so it must be a question of, is there some interference in which case surely that becomes subjective and the referee goes to the screen, but it was the fact the check went on for so long. So we thought this must be really watertight when they cleared it, and then we saw it back after the game and sort of went, oh, that doesn't make a lot of sense. It's the fact that it took so little time for pro-ref to come out afterwards and say, yeah, we got it wrong, and it's obviously, you know, I think there's a balance to be had here. Obviously it is a game-changing decision in the context of it's a 1-0 win in the one goal shouldn't have stood, and on the other side of that coin, Manchester United should have been able to win that game against 10 men regardless of that. So there's a balance there, but I think it's just, it's always such a farcical situation when these apologies happen, because as Michael Carrick was asked, before the apology was given out, you know, sometimes they apologize and he sort of went like, yeah, that'll be great, because he did. You know, it doesn't do anything. Yeah, yeah. We'll get onto Manchester United's performance in a little bit, but what did you make of it? Because Enzo Fernandez clearly impacts on the Sandra Martinez, doesn't he? Yeah, it's an error. And it's an error from an area where you can't feel that it shouldn't be made from the coldness of a VAR booth, not the heat of the moment in a game, a referee you have an area of sympathy for him. He's very, very tough decision, same as the assistant referees, and the assistant referees given offside against Harlan, therefore that is an objective call. And then the subjective bit was Enzo Fernandez on the Sandra Martinez, as you say, Carrick is open for debate in the fact that it's clear he's offside everybody in the footballing world, and so often he comes to the conclusion of what does football expect from this? And you expect it to be offside. VAR, the one thing you say is really good for is offside, because you are or you're not. And that's it. There's no whether it's a toenail or whether it's a whole leg or a whole body, you're offside or you're not. Now where you draw the lines and how big those lines are is another matter, but you have a black and white decision there. They've made this very, very murky and all of a sudden, very, very questionable. Yeah. What about from a goalkeeper's perspective as well, because I think Gary Neville made a point after as well, saying that even Sennelalman was affected. From a goalkeeper's perspective, it affects as soon as someone is offside, it affects you and your defence. So if you're stood there and the ball is in front of me now and the goal is there and someone is stood toward the wrong side of you, you are automatically affected in the game. This has been the argument since they introduced not affecting plays. Well, it's affecting the whole of the defence, the old-school Arsenal defence where you'll stand there with your arm up in the air. You're all expecting the game to stop because someone's offside. So the argument that someone is in an offside position but not affecting the game doesn't actually exist. If they are affecting everybody else on the pitch, so you're then coming into again, the nuance of how much are they affecting the game and this is where it becomes murky. Yeah. Well, delighted to say that joining us now for more on the process behind the decision-making is former Premier League referee Graham Scott, who has broken the incident down over on the athletic. Graham, thank you so much for joining us. You've written a piece over on the athletic and like I said, you've broken down every step that VIR made. So firstly, talk to us about that process and ultimately how they came to this decision. How long have you got because it is a VIRs in this, always in this bind between the kind of irresistible force of speed because people want to get on with it and the unmovable objects of accuracy and this is, I think this is what's happened here. I can't be sure we won't know until we hear the audio which Jimmy will be released in the next day or so. Basically what's happened, I think, is that we have a very clunky still, semi-automated system that takes pretty much a minute and a half to establish a factual decision and I can tell you now when I've sat in that chair, a minute and a half feels like at least double that and you can hear down the microphone, the frustration of everyone, the players battering the referee, you know, referee to battle a questions, what's going on, why is it taking so long, what's going on, tell us what's happening, the crowd getting restless and you get so easily drawn into, it's so tempting to think, okay, he's on the side after all, let's quickly check this and get there over with so that the game can get very started, we can give the goaler, we can all move on and in that moment it seems to me this final stage of the process just simply not happened properly, quite the pre-reflect have accepted that didn't happen and it's indefensible but I can at least understand and empathise with the person who found themselves in that position. Graham, you talk about the guys in the booth and I was just talking about, I've been in there and watched whilst they're working through training programmes and issues within a game, talk us through the process and also the emotion and mental side of things as someone in the booth because you can bring yourself mentally into a real rabbit war and of thoughts, can't you? Yeah, you find yourself, we used to call it being in the tunnel and that was particularly true around red car tackles where you saw a point of contact that looked horrible and then you couldn't remove that image from your head and then you'd watch lots of different angles and you just find yourself replaying the incident again and again and again and going nowhere. You've been in for training, I know that Rob, one of the problems with VR is you cannot recreate that pressure in training so the idea that you can say we'll just take someone who used to play or as a referee lower, much lower down the pyramid and just train them as a var, it's like learning to drive by learning the highway code, it's easy to learn the process. What's much more difficult is to deliver it in practice under pressure. Well, as I said earlier, you've got that sense of everyone's a quick decision but everyone also wants the correct decision and also in football, we have that thing where everyone just wants a decision that they like, three rewind, two weeks, there's a big controversy about Harry McGuire's handball before a goal against Ipswich, a lot of people who simply wanted Manchester to lose that game, they were on MIX, which is side that day and the narrative became that this was a truly terrible decision, the independent panel that judges these things said the referee got it right and that hasn't got picked up and reported in anything like the same intensity two weeks later. And just one last one for me as well, Graeme, I think you talk about kind of the narratives and how powerful they can be and how they can build. I think sometimes fans will speculate that there was a big decision that went against Manchester in the first half and therefore do the officials feel kind of even subconsciously a pressure to like balance it out in inverted commas, is that a genuine thing for officials or is this just sort of a fan conspiracy theory? It's certainly not what happened here, this is a factual process decision, absolutely no way this is in any way a fact here. Can that be an influence? Yes, occasionally. I think it's in the margins. I don't think it affects very many decisions across a season, but you'd want to be seen to be fair across a game. You want to be consistent across a game. So you would sometimes your threshold, we talk about thresholds certainly for red cards and for other sanctions may vary slightly, but less than what carried away here, it's generally speaking, the referees are pretty clear colourful form of view based on each instance that on his own merits in the context in which it happens and context is important to all referring decisions. If it was purely a case of applying a set of rules 100% consistently, anyone could do it frankly. It's really much more about it, much more about the job than that and, you know, it is about how you manage an event, how you understand what's expected in the moment in a particular situation. I used to referee in the Premier League in the championship, often alternating. The expectations are slightly different in those two competitions. So you should adjust as a referee to what's expected from the players, from the coaching staff and so on. Graeme, thank you so much for your time and your insight, we really appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. Of course, that wasn't the only flashpoint. I want to talk to you both about Phil Foden's red as well, which came early on. Was it the right decision? And do we feel like Bruno Fernandez, who also appeared to kick out before that, actually got a bit lucky there? Yeah, it was pathetic on all fronts. It was a red card. You can't go around kicking people off the ball. That's it. Into the stomach or what? Heart, the intensity doesn't matter for me and you can't behave like that. He's been Bruno'd, isn't he? And if you lay on the floor and ride the round and after being kicked from Bruno and Bruno got a red card himself, you say, well, you know what, actually that was a knife on him. So I think it's just naive from Phil Foden and. His reaction was one that I don't think he could believe that he did it, as opposed to his appeal of, I barely touched him. It doesn't really wash. I understand people saying, you know, it should be yellow on both sides, but it is pathetic. It is pathetic from everyone, but you can't do that. So without stitch, Bruno, I've got yellow. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mentioned that you were there yesterday and you touched on already Manchester night's performance. It's just another case again of them struggling to play at the intensity that is really needed from them at the moment. Yeah, definitely. I think, you know, we can set aside the goal and the fact the goal was given when it shouldn't have been kind of notwithstanding that, which is obviously massive on the, on the outcome of the game. If I go back to Phil Foden's red card, which happened to be right in front of me to use casual terminology, the city players heads were absolutely gone. They were so rattled. Donna rumour was over getting in everyone's face, Foden took several minutes to get off the pitch. Like, it was a very, they had lost their structure. They had lost their plan. And I think you know, it had actually been playing quite well up until that point and it had some decent chances. And then the urgency just dropped off so much. And that's what was really frustrating and disappointing. So I think we've seen them fail to match the intensity, obviously a hole on the first weekend at Everton. I did a piece on kind of their game management and how they didn't attack the situation with enough urgency to kill off the game. I thought that going down to 10 players, you know, it's is hyperbole to say that it's suited city, but then going down to 10 and playing in a low block certainly didn't suit the way that United wanted to play and they didn't really have the solutions for that. So it was such a good opportunity and to play against 10 men for so long and not managed to get on the score sheet is a massive concern. It's not the first time they struggled against 10 men either, is it? No, it's not the first time they struggle against 10 men or against a low block. Like all of this stuff, you go back to the Everton game last season, that was under Ruben Amarin, but that was probably one of the worst performances of his 10 year and that was against 10 men for a long time as well. So there's this element, I think, United really liked to kind of attack big spaces and those don't exist when you're playing against teams who were set up just basically purely to defend, but then what that did was it allowed city to grow in confidence and by the end of the game, you really wouldn't have known that United had a man advantage that they failed to kind of get their foot on their throat and really go after it. And I think that's what was frustrating to watch about it from the United perspective. It flipped, didn't it? It flipped the game from the city being very, very stayed and prescribed in how they played. They were almost like flipping the pages of the manual when they got it and saying, oh, okay, you pass it to player A and then he passes it to player and you all move in a very stayed way. Then they said, well, actually, we're just going to prove we're the better side. We're just going to prove in the difficult circumstances, come together and go and play in a managed way and maybe a way that suited them better in a more direct way and it just felt like Manchester United from that red card point. And did that themselves went into a controlled manner that they didn't really know the freedom wasn't there and all of a sudden, you're feeling like they can't really find a moment of magic, a bit of an answer in there. So it was really interesting from an outsider's perspective watching it on a tactical level. Laurie finished there saying that result won't help the pressure on Michael Carrick. I mean, man United have now won just four points from their opening four games. I mean, when you look at those games, Carice, I mean, Ipswich, the only one they've won against two newly promoted sides against a largely depleted Everton and then ten men of Manchester City now, how much pressure do we feel that Michael Carrick is already under? I think there's pressures to improve for sure. That's partly because you know how much better this team can play under him. I also think it's so early in the season and you need to have a bit of perspective on what he achieved with the team last season in different circumstances. I believe you can talk about the results as disappointing and about elements of the performances as disappointing without it becoming a discussion about his job when we're not even in October yet. Manchester United is such a kind of feeble place to manage and the discussion around someone's job can start so remarkably quickly. And that is what the club have really tried to get away from in the past few years. I think I saw Jamie Carrick as Colin before the weekend saying that, you know, Michael Carrick's still seen as an interim manager. I don't really think it matters whether Jamie Carrick has still sees Michael Carrick as an interim manager. I don't think that's relevant. I think what matters is whether the players see him that way, right? Because to me, it feels like they really enjoy playing the style of football that he wants to play. The problem at the moment is that now teams are becoming wise to that style of football because we've seen it for a while and they are working out ways to stop it. So that's when the questions come onto Carrick. If you don't have as much experience, how do you solve these problems? How do you adapt to teams now getting wise to you and your methods? That's the questions for him to answer. And we are only four games into the season. That's not a sort of making excuses for the results and performances, which have been below the standard that Manchester United fans would expect. But it is still early and he does still have kind of room to adapt. I think it's tough isn't it? Because there's so much optimism around the start of the new season. You look at it already and you go, well, they're eight points already off the pace. Really? Did you see that column that Carrick was referring to there? Yeah. What do you think of that? Well, it was a four, interim manager, four games ago. It feels like it because it was four games ago that it was true. I think I've known Michael Carrick for 30 years and he's a resolute guy in he's got a quiet steelness to him that you, you see a lot of managers and you've, you see them, he's almost like that it's everything's an advertisement for themselves, you know, they're their own best media machine. And he doesn't buy into that. He's just a sound guy who goes about his business in a quiet manner. What he does have is a brain and football in brain that sees things before everything else is happening. I sat with him working for a day earlier on this year. And he said, sat down and said, what's this? This will happen. And he went bang, bang, bang. And so he sees it exactly how it's going to happen because he's been on the pitch playing in the high stage in the world, in the best players in the world. He's done it. He can stand outside it and see it. So he sees what the problems are. I am 100% sure it's finding that solution with the tools that he's given at the moment where let's not forget he lost the 50 million pound midfielder in Casamiro in the summer, whether he's aging or not. So these replacements had to come, whether they've got the tools to do it to implement it is another matter. So it's really finding what he's got there and finding the answers, like you say, I don't think it's a matter of if he can see it. If he can find the answers, it's whether those players can be implemented. And that's quite a big question for Manchester United. Well, that is Manchester United. What about what this result means for city then? Atot Rafford alongside Laurie was our man city writer, Sam Lee. I know it's only just finished, but I can safely say that that from the Manchester city point of view is going to be remembered as one of the best Darby's most historic, most beloved Darby's of all time. Maybe I don't know, known as the 10 man Darby, the 10 men Darby. Obviously it had everything, loads of drama, loads of controversy. The Foden Red Card, a lot of people think it's a red. Personally, I feel both should have been given a yellow play on it's a Darby. At the same time, the goal, I don't know how I enter Fernandez, is an interfering with play, so I would have given that as not a goal. So loads to talk about, loads of controversy, but then from the city point of view, the magnitude of that with the new manager, Enzo Morescar, he danched down the touch line at the final whistle to salute the away fans. That's going to do a huge amount for his credit in the bank. The same for the players. The players in the second half, the 10 men, they perform perfectly. That's what you need to do with 10 men. They all showed the grit. Elliot Anderson was everywhere winning the ball back. Enzo Fernandez was a protagonist like you'd expect. Harlan was involved in giant, half time coming on, it was fantastic. So Mark Gahie brilliant at the back. Matez Nunez brilliant at the back. The Donna Romace, just behind me here, actually earned city that famous win in the end. There's some players I've not mentioned, but they were all great. And honestly, I'm telling you, from a city point of view, this will be one of the most beloved and remembered Darby's of all time. Well, Sam there calling it the 10 man Darby then, which she's done in his match piece over on the athletic as well. How memorable carries do we feel this will be for Enzo Moreska? I mean, a first Darby win and first Darby post pet for Manchester City. Yeah, it's enormous for him, but I mean, I remember them when they went down to turn. I was like, well, Enzo Moreska knows about that. Yeah, it does. They did that a lot last season and it usually didn't go very well. And that is potentially a reflection on kind of like the quality of the players available to them. Being a little bit more kind of discipline tactically. But you know, city we've talked about United's game management, city's game management was an absolute masterclass in how to see out a result like that, the kind of time wasting and the dark arts and the trying to get in United's head, they did it brilliantly. They performed their roles really, really well. They were clinical with the opportunity that they had, even though it shouldn't have stood. And it, you know, it was, it was a real masterclass from them in how to see out a game of that nature and how to irritate a crowd and irritate a team. I think that's positive for them in the sense that it's not necessarily kind of the choreographed football that you might associate with Enzo Moreska. It's not the patterns that that he might have wanted to see. It's not the way he would have wanted his team to play, but they got the result anyway. And that's sort of that's what we talk about so much with Arsenal, right? The kind of win at all costs, win no matter what the, the game state is and how it unfolds. That's a really positive quality for city to know they have. Yeah, the goal of banizing effects that that has for a team and for a manager, you can't buy that. That is something that experience will last some throughout the season. His interesting sound came up with that with sat next to me is Marri Balotelli with the Y always me show or anything. I con it was the most famous victory city in Ireland. United that one might top it, I think. Sam mentioned a number of players there. He talked about grit as well. I know you're especially impressed with Mark Gay and Mateus Nunes. Yeah, that right hand side of the defense was incredible. And I thought Mark Gay's measurement of where to be and when to be there as well was just fantastic. He managed to read the game so well, landed it with a physical side to him that I don't, not many people give him credit for, I think, because he goes about it in such a consummate measurement measured way that you don't really see that physical side to him. But then Mateus Nunes is a man transformed it right back. I was at a game against Ray and Madrid and you said there, well, Mateus Nunes is going to be right back. He's going to get torn apart by Vinnie Jr. And he got torn apart by Vinnie Jr. And you start there, he knew it was going to happen. Vinnie Jr. was new, it was going to happen. And then yesterday it was up against Rashford. The confidence he showed in contrast was just remarkable that he said, right, OK, I'm going to show you the line because I've no, I can do whatever you do, I'm going to match it. And he did tow for tow with Marcus Rashford every time. I thought it was brilliant from the pair of them and just typified everything from what Manchester City were yesterday. Now, making a return after last week, back by popular demand is our goalkeeper watch. Yes, yes, this is what you want to show Rob. This is it. David Raya had one of his best performances in an Arsenal show that on Saturday brilliantly saving Enzo Lafay's spot kick to help Arsenal to a 2-0 victory at Sunderland and talk us through then the technical difference between the two goalkeepers on the day. We've got David Raya at one end, Robin Roof set the other. Yeah, two keepers, two penalties, two different outcomes. Went the same way, same penalty, eesh into the terms of the dive in the bottom corner to their left. The difference being, if you're going to go, go big and David Raya went big. Now, we didn't dive much further, but technically you watch it. And when Robin Roof is waiting for Sackad to take the penalty, he's going to dive to his left. He knows where he's going. Robin Roof's right foot, go backwards half a step. And that is inherent in everybody in everything you do. So if I said we're going to have a race, but I'm not going to tell you when the start of the race is and then all of a sudden I said go to sprint forward, your right or left foot would go backwards to go forwards. He does it exactly the same. But if you go backwards half a step and then forwards half a step in distance, you've got a whole steps difference. So David Raya, his first motion is to go with his left foot, to go left. Roof's is to go back with his right foot to then go forwards and the difference is about roughly a hands width. And that's the difference between David Raya and Robin Roof's. I love this. Love it. David Raya, best goalkeeper in the Premier League, maybe even the world at the moment. It depends how you define best in the league, right? He has a lot less to do than a lot of other Premier League goalkeepers. I think if you look at the stats in terms of the number of saves that he made, for instance, last season, the number of shots on target he faced, it is really low down among Premier League goalkeepers who are starting consistently throughout the season. And that's a marker of how good the defense in front of him is. But everything that he does have to do, he does it really well. He's a good shot stopper. He's a safe pair of hands. He's consistent. His clean sheet rate is obviously great. He's won what three consecutive golden gloves, which again, that's a mix of him and the defense in front of him. But I'm interested in Rob's feet, to be fair, because I think it's just really hard to judge goalkeepers outside the context of their team. Yeah, I mean, he's not even the best keeper in Spain, is he? Well, I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, so that's remarkable. But he goes to Spain. He goes to Courtawe. You just can't compete. I'm sorry, the guy makes saves. That you just makes them look routine that are incredible. You put anybody else in that round Madrid team and I think Round Madrid gets a whole lot worse. Where does Raya rank for you at the moment then? Oh, he's up there. You look at someone like Donna Romero at the other end, only had to one save to make. He's had his critics, but comes up at the big moments. And that is the point you're making, I think, is the top, top keepers have so little to do. And then when it counts, bang, they're there. And that would red, doesn't it? Just before we move on, I believe you noticed an error that a lot of goalkeepers were making over the weekend. Put in a difficult place as a goalkeeper's union might say. Not errors, but you look at shirt and fur. It's switched to Pickford and Kinski in the same game. And then Petrovich, who unfortunately conceded from it, it's a straight pass. When so, when you're getting a back pass and the way the team's pressed now, they'll press. Pretty much in a 4-4-2. And you're looking at the 2-0-4s. And so to split them, you're the one that's breaking the lines as a goalkeeper. And it is fraught with danger this pass because you're playing it into midfielders who are running towards you, who want to be playing it, bouncing it off one touch. So you've got to get the weight of the pass right. If you get that too hard, then it puts them under pressure. If you put it too soft, then you're in a foot race against the other midfielder. So that weight of the pass is key. All four keepers got caught out with just under hitting passes slightly, erroneous passes. It is one that is so small in terms of reward because you know it's just going to go to a fullback. But the risk is so high because the players can win in the ball back in the middle of the pitch. We saw three keepers pretty much get away with it the weekend. One of them got caught out and it cost, it cost Bournemouth. Yeah. Great stuff. Go keep a watch back with the bang. Back next week, hopefully. For our final segment, delighted to say, we are now joined by Seb Stafford Blower, who's been rounding up the weekend's biggest talking points over on the briefing on the athletic. Seb, it is great to see you. Hello, good morning. Yeah, the briefing is a great opportunity to upset loads and loads of people on the Monday morning. We get it. Right, we've been getting into refereeing decisions in the Manchester Derby, but there was also a contentious decision in Arsenal's win over Sunderland that Michel Arthetta branded unacceptable. This of course was that incident involving Ezri Conzor and Dan Ballard. That resulted in Sunderland being awarded a penalty. I guess ultimately it didn't affect the result of the game, but was Arthetta right to be as upset as he was over this decision? As upset as he was, I don't think so, but then I think he knew what he was doing, Emma. It's an opportunity, and managers have been doing this for a long time. I was focusing on did it, Jesse Mourinho did it, Pep Guardiola was doing it. And it's from us as long as the game has existed, right? When something like that happens, you pointed out, you make sure there's a little bit of pressure on the officials. Makes it seem as if perhaps you're owed something in the future from the game in return. And we know, based on all our reporting around, their color test is coaching, he says nothing but accident, right? He's a meticulous person. He is a very diligent planner, he knows what he's doing. So I think there's a little bit of performance here, but then I also think he's entitled, we all are to be confused and aggravated with the rules in this area, the laws, because he really knows what they are. We could see exactly the same incident next weekend and see an entirely different outcome. And that's a very strange position to be in. And so I don't really believe that he's acting out of frustration. I think he's doing his job, he's doing his best for Arsenal and the conditions around Arsenal, but I think everybody has a little bit of a grievance here. Yeah, you look at what the way Michelard test has gone about things. It's very similar to the open letters that I think Arsenal and Liverpool put out against referring to decisions a couple of years ago, wasn't it, that you're saying, okay, where is the line as a manager? Where can we go in putting the pressure on? It was an interesting decision because I know the referees have been told this season that the efforts of a defender is one that if you turn your back on the ball, if you move and you make contact, the initial contact and you're not facing the ball and you have no interest in playing the ball, then that is something that they're going to penalize. Regardless of where the ball is in the penalty area when it's coming in, you just feel that this was the wrong moment. I.e. when concerts falling over than ballad, that was the wrong moment to judge it, but that's where he's judged it from. So it's right context, wrong delivery, wrong moment. Not the first time, is it that our tetas spoken out about officials? No, and he's very vocal. He doesn't seem to know where his technical area is. He got pulled off from that on Saturday in quite a entertaining moment where he's so losing for a hug and gets shown the yellow card, which was extremely gif-able. But yeah, I mean, look, I think Seb's absolutely right. So he's being hyperbolic, right? He said in the press conference afterwards, I watched it 20 times and I cannot find a way to understand how we even think to give a penalty in that situation. I mean, I understand the point of view that ballad is pulling concert as well. They're both falling, they're both holding each other. Bill also looks an awful lot to me, like concert has both arms around him and is grabbing the front of his shirt with both hands. And there's also a whole irony to point out here in Arsenal feeling hard done by about grappling at corners, like look at what you have created. Would we be in this situation where there's a clamp down if this is not a strategy that your team have employed? But I think Seb's bang on in the sense that the problem is the rules are enforced so inconsistently that it allows managers to create this sense of like, oh, where is us? Like this never happens to anyone else. It does happen to other people, but it also then doesn't happen to a different team the same day, the same week. It's all just a bit of a mess really. I thought it was a strange hill for him to choose to die on, but that's sort of, I can understand why. Well, elsewhere, Fulham got their first point and clean sheet of the season with a goal of straw at Anfield. I'm just wondering if Alvaro Arbaloa might have heard your tips on the tactical preview? They weren't groundbreaking. Well, you know, player defensively fielder, indefensively field and player normal shape. And you know what, they play great and they just needed to get that side of the game right. You're looking at how, you know, I sent a boat coming in. The players playing in positions that suit them all. Alex, it will be playing further up the field. And then you look at players who maybe aren't up to speed. Palacios didn't play and you play with a team that you know that can compete in there. And their game management, I thought, was really good. It sounds silly, but Anthony Robinson was, you know, got booked and made a foul in an area where you've just gone. It broke up the game. It completely killed the game. And just moments like that when you go to Anfield as a player, you're starting around gone, look, take your breaks, take your moments where you can sense your moments as well. And they actually look like a team that, you know, could cause an upset there at Anfield and Josh King have more shots than anyone else in the game. You know, so all of a sudden, you're getting in the right areas. You might nick something at Anfield as what would have been a famous win? Felt like a step in the right direction. Absolutely, yeah. Something that, well, wasn't a step in the right direction, spurs as goalless draw at home to Everton, meaning that Roberta DeZobe side is still yet to score. A Premier League goal this season, after, you know, a summer of huge spending, what are they still missing? I think a risk taker, Emma. So, no, you're right. It wasn't a step forward, but it might have been a shuffle forward because for 20, 25 minutes of that game, they played some of the best football they have at ages, right up until the point at which they needed a final pass or they needed to someone, someone to take responsibility for a shot. And it felt as if the longer that game went on, the more aware of the conversation those spurs best became about no goals. It's going to be the fourth consecutive game which they haven't scored. And you saw a lot of players doing good things, but then nobody wanting to take the shot or to risk the final pass and to be the reason why the crowd groaned again and all the momentum drifted out from the stadium. And I'm a spurs fan and obviously a spurs podigest. I'm sure, Rob is giggling away in the corner of the studio, but I really feel as if there's a little bit of a break in this run around the corner. There just needs to be a bit more conviction, needs to be a bit more chemistry. I think the one absence I notice is there's no goal scorer, right? There's no orthodox number nine, or at least no orthodox number nine who's informed who's making the kind of runs which opens sort of the passing avenues you need in the final third. That's a concern because can we trust Dominic Slanky's fitness? Don't know. Is my motion nine in Premier Leagueland? Don't know that either. So there are questions to ask, but at the same time, it's improving. And given how bad last season was, that's what I'm going to choose to focus on, I think. Is there a break around the corner? Well, yes, he said it's a run. Is it not quite a marathon quite now? The run that there are, it feels like this is the same, the same problem for spurs. And the lack of center forward has been rumbling on for an eternity. And, but just, just on deserving, and it, it looked like he was playing Savio on the left at times. And it just shuffling things around a little bit. I criticized him last week because he was playing players that position. It looked a little bit better. Yeah, I also think there was, there was no Petroporo. Now, when Petroporo doesn't play in spurs, don't have those two fullbacks. There's always going to be a problem. And I feel like the moving of Savio from right to left, the use of Curtis, like you're always going to have a problem down that right side because if you're playing Archie Gray there, good footballer, not a right back. And so everything becomes very, very predictable, which is obviously going to harm the impact, or less than the impact of the player ahead. So you're kind of haveling to shuffle players away from that problem. But a lot of the stuff that happened, I thought the defending was pretty good. I thought Jumple Van Hacker had an excellent game. A lot of the ball distribution midfield is really good. I thought Sandra and I played well. Rodrigo Bentancourt is having a bit of a renaissance. So if you want to focus on the big negative of the lack of goals, it's very easy to do that. And it's very easy to back that point out. But then other things, good number of touches in your position box, good application of pressure. I think David Moys mentioned this in his press conference afterwards, they run a pretty heavy fire for a long period during the first half. And these are shuffles forwards, not big strides, and certainly not big zero gravity leaps. But I'll take it for now. And another clean sheet. I'm never going to be forgiven where I've come from. I'm giving a sort of the emotional caves I've dwelt in over the past six months, Emma. I'm OK with it for now. Laura Berto Deserviers made that known as well, as an e. We actually have a WhatsApp group for this podcast on a Monday. And Rob dropped in it on Saturday night spurs are the gift that keep on giving, giving nothing. There we go. And I said that should have been the episode. I don't know if it's still my day, you know. Yeah. Who knows? Sam, thank you so much for coming on. Really appreciate it. Thanks for having me, Emma. And thanks for Rob. Thanks to Karris as well. It's been a good start to Monday, I think. Are you going to go for a lie down after this or? No, I've got what to do. What to do? Straight back at it, girl. Straight back at it. What about you? I'm off to do, well, prepare for a week full of football, which is good. We're including an East London Derby, which I can't wait for. Ooh, that'll be fun. Ooh, that'll be fun. Well, a big thanks to Sam. And to Laurie earlier on for their thoughts, remember to keep across the athletic. For all the latest, we'll catch you next time.