1. Executive Overview: Core Theses & Key Revelations
When FIFA designated center referee Ismael Elfath alongside assistant referees Corey Parker and Kyle Atkins to officiate the FIFA World Cup 2026 semi-final between Argentina and England on American soil, it marked a historic watershed for North American officiating. Long viewed as outsiders in a discipline traditionally dominated by UEFA and CONMEBOL veterans, this American trio navigated one of international football's most volatile, politically burdened fixtures with immaculate composure. Their subsequent appearance on the U.S. Soccer Podcast, hosted by former USWNT champion Megan Klingenberg, provided an unprecedented peek into the technical, psychological, and operational mechanics of elite match officiating.
Far from a routine victory lap, the conversation exposed a profound intellectual evolution in how top-tier referees view their role within the modern game. Across nearly an hour of unvarnished dialogue, Elfath, Parker, and Atkins articulated several core theses that challenge conventional assumptions regarding Video Assistant Refereeing (VAR), match preparation, conflict management, and regulatory design:
- The VAR Counter-Revolution & Restorative Pragmatism: The crew championed an aggressive industry-wide pivot away from algorithmic micro-intervention. Grounding his philosophy in VAR’s original 2016 mandate of "minimum interference, maximum impact," Elfath argued that over-referreeing erodes the natural rhythm of football. Atkins reinforced this with a candid technical critique, noting that forcing VAR teams to intervene without definitive camera angles places unreasonable strain on officials and degrades technology's core purpose.
- Pitch Diplomacy and the "70/30 Rule": The crew revealed the origin of their moniker, the "UN of Refereeing," bestowed directly by FIFA Referee Committee Chairman Pierluigi Collina. Elfath posited that technical rule enforcement is secondary to stakeholder buy-in. In ambiguous decisions (where clarity splits 70/30), a referee’s primary objective is to manage optics, sell the ruling, and maintain authority. As Elfath succinctly noted, being 100% technically correct is meaningless if the pitch ecosystem rejects the decision.
- Granular Psychological Profiling over Rulebook Pedantry: High-level match preparation extends far beyond tactical scouting reports and physical conditioning. Elfath detailed a micro-psychological framework requiring officials to build individualized dossiers on all 22 starting players—mapping contractual security, domestic club rivalries, recent form, and personal interpersonal friction to anticipate volatility before it erupts.
- Operational Synergy Forged in the 74-Day Crucible: The trio’s seamless execution stems from an interdependent team dynamic refined across years of shared isolation, including a continuous 74-day tour spanning the 2019 U-20 World Cup in Poland and the CONCACAF Gold Cup in Dallas. Each member fulfills a specialized role: Parker operates as the data-driven systems analyst, Atkins manages off-field logistics and crew culture, while Elfath acts as the executive negotiator on the pitch.
- Shared Official-Player Advocacy for Structural Law Overhauls: Highlighting an unexpected alignment between match officials and elite athletes, both the referee crew and Klingenberg voiced strong support for replacing standard extra-time periods with the Golden Goal format, while endorsing 26-player squad expansions to combat physical exhaustion and tactical stagnation.
2. Context & Background: The Landscape Leading to This Conversation
To fully grasp the magnitude of Elfath, Parker, and Atkins managing Argentina vs. England in a World Cup semi-final, one must analyze the heavy historical baggage accompanying that fixture. Few rivalries in global sport possess such a potent mix of geopolitical tension and sporting drama. From Antonio Rattín’s controversial dismissal in the 1966 quarter-final—which prompted English manager Alf Ramsey to dub the Argentines "animals"—to Diego Maradona’s infamous "Hand of God" and stunning "Goal of the Century" in 1986, the fixture has consistently generated historical lightning rods. Subsequent encounters, such as David Beckham’s red card for kicking Diego Simeone in 1998 and Michael Owen’s penalty heroics in 2002, further entrenched a deep mutual animosity between the two federations.
When the teams met at World Cup 2026, the pre-match atmosphere inside the stadium reflected decades of stored hostility. As Klingenberg noted during the broadcast, Argentinian supporters whistled aggressively throughout the rendition of "God Save the King," prompting English supporters to retaliate by deafeningly booing the "Himno Nacional Argentino." Operating inside this pressure cooker required an officiating team capable of maintaining complete psychological control without inflaming nationalist passions.
Historically, FIFA entrusted fixtures of this magnitude almost exclusively to European or South American referees. However, the rise of the Professional Referee Organization (PRO) in North America gradually altered that hierarchy. Trailblazed by Mark Geiger’s knockout assignments at the 2014 and 2018 World Cups, American officiating built a reputation for analytical rigor, physical fitness, and neutral communication. Elfath’s crew inherited and expanded this foundation. Having successfully stewarded high-stakes matches earlier in the tournament—including Spain's elimination, Norway vs. Brazil, and Netherlands vs. Japan—without becoming the center of post-match controversy, the American trio earned the confidence of Pierluigi Collina and FIFA’s refereeing leadership.
Furthermore, this semi-final occurred against the backdrop of an ongoing global crisis in VAR implementation. Following years of fan frustration over offside calls decided by millimeter margins, lengthy reviews, and inconsistent intervention thresholds, the international football community had arrived at a breaking point. The call from top officials for a return to VAR's founding principles reflects a broader industry desire to restore authority to on-pitch referees while reserving video technology strictly for clear and obvious errors.
3. Deep-Dive Thematic Breakdown
3.1 Philosophical Shifts in Video Assistant Refereeing: From Algorithmic Perfectionism to Restorative Pragmatism
A central revelation of the podcast was the explicit pushback from elite officials against the hyper-intrusive application of VAR. Over the past decade, video review has frequently devolved into a forensic exercise where match actions are dissected in super slow-motion, detached from the natural velocity and context of live play. Elfath directly addressed this trajectory, signaling an urgent industry correction:
"I think there's a shift where we want to go back to the origin of why VAR was introduced in 2016, which is a bit more of minimum interference, maximum impact. I think personally that football is going more that way."
This statement represents a significant philosophical realigning. The attempt to eliminate all human ambiguity through technology has inadvertently created an environment of systemic paralysis, where on-pitch referees delay whistle-blowing out of habit and VAR rooms search endlessly for microscopic infractions. Kyle Atkins offered a candid technical perspective from the assistant referee’s lens, exposing the operational flaws of forcing interventions when visual evidence is fundamentally incomplete:
"We're putting a lot of pressure on people just to try to figure out can they even get involved, let alone make a right decision. That detracts from the value of VAR in some cases when you just don't have the right angles."
Atkins’ critique highlights an unspoken operational reality: camera coverage, despite modern broadcast capabilities, contains blind spots, optical distortion, and frame-rate limitations. When VAR officials attempt to render definitive judgments from sub-optimal camera angles, they compromise the integrity of the process. The solution advocated by the crew is a return to restorative pragmatism—reserving VAR strictly for clear, indisputable errors while allowing on-pitch referees the latitude to manage subjective contact based on match flow and physical intensity.
3.2 The 'UN of Refereeing': Conflict Resolution, Diplomatic Presence, and 'Sellability'
During post-match debriefs, Pierluigi Collina bestowed upon the American crew the title of the "UN of Refereeing"—a badge of honor linked to their neutral standing and diplomatic effectiveness. Elfath explained that FIFA had slated a white referee jersey for use during the tournament, which had remained unworn due to team kit conflicts. When the crew wore the white uniforms for Argentina vs. England, Collina remarked that the neutral aesthetic mirrored their diplomatic handling of a fiery, volatile fixture.
This diplomatic philosophy is anchored in what Elfath terms the "70/30 Rule" of officiating psychology:
"No decision is 100% one way or the other. When it's 70/30, can the stakeholders accept what you're selling? What we don't want to do is be right and not accepted. You could be 100% right and still no one accepts you; that's what we're trying to avoid."
This doctrine shifts the definition of refereeing excellence. Traditional officiating paradigms evaluate referees on strict rulebook compliance. Elfath’s framework recognizes that football is a complex social environment governed by emotion, momentum, and optics. In marginal decisions—where an action could reasonably be interpreted as either a foul or fair play—the referee’s primary task is to establish legitimacy and win the buy-in of players, managers, and supporters. If a referee issues a technically defensible card that alienates both teams and triggers a breakdown in game control, the decision fails the test of acceptance. Managing the pitch requires body language, verbal communication, and positioning that convinces all parties to accept the outcome.
3.3 Human Factors in High-Stakes Management: Player Intelligence and Micro-Psychology
To execute diplomatic refereeing under high pressure, match preparation must extend far beyond tactical shape and set-piece positioning. Elfath outlined an extensive scouting framework centered on individualized player profiling:
"If you want to be exceptional at refereeing, you have to know that you have 22 unique men that you have to manage. What's their story? What kind of season did they have? Who has a contract? Who doesn't? Who has a problem with another player?"
This level of psychological intelligence transforms how an official manages individual interactions during a match. An official who understands that a specific central defender is playing without a contract extension recognizes that player's heightened anxiety regarding injury or disciplinary sanctions. Similarly, knowing which opposing players share unresolved interpersonal friction from domestic club rivalries allows a center referee to intervene preemptively before minor contact escalates into mass confrontation.
By mapping the psychological terrain of all 22 individuals, the referee crew moves from reactive whistle-blowing to proactive behavioral steering. They anticipate emotional flashpoints, tailor their communication style to individual temperaments, and de-escalate tension before it disrupts the match.
3.4 Crew Mechanics and Operational Synergies: The 74-Day Crucible
The operational efficiency demonstrated by Elfath, Parker, and Atkins on the pitch is the product of long-term partnership and intense shared experience. Corey Parker detailed the formative background of their unit, referencing a grueling period in 2019 where the trio spent nearly two and a half consecutive months isolated together across international assignments:
"We spent 35 days in Poland for the U20 World Cup, then flew immediately to Dallas for the Gold Cup... something like 69 to 74 straight days together. You can only have breakfast, lunch, and dinner and spend every minute of your time together... you're gonna figure it out, or you're gonna fail."
This extensive cohabitation forged a deep level of mutual trust and explicit division of labor. Within the crew, each member brings distinct professional skills to the team dynamic:
- Corey Parker (Assistant Referee): A corporate consultant and accountant by trade, Parker serves as the crew's analytical anchor. He applies structured problem-solving to logistics, line management, and spatial precision, ensuring that administrative and operational details are meticulously handled.
- Kyle Atkins (Assistant Referee): Atkins acts as the humanizing catalyst and off-field culture manager. Renowned within the crew for his culinary passion—specifically bringing fresh pastries to pre-match preparation sessions—Atkins balances the high-stress environment with levity and camaraderie.
- Ismael Elfath (Center Referee): Channeling his Mediterranean heritage and Moroccan roots, Elfath brings charismatic leadership and decisive authority. He relies on Parker and Atkins to keep him on schedule off the pitch so he can focus entirely on executive decision-making on the field.
This clear division of labor eliminates friction. On the field, non-verbal cues and split-second communication allow the trio to operate as a single cohesive unit, executing complex offside and disciplinary calls with complete alignment.
3.5 Structural Rule Innovations: Golden Goal Advocacy and Roster Dynamics
The discussion also highlighted strong alignment between elite referees and former international players regarding potential structural improvements to the game. When host Megan Klingenberg brought up the subject of extra-time regulations, the response from the officiating crew was immediate and enthusiastic:
"We don't want to referee 120 minutes. Yes, golden goal please."
Elfath’s blunt endorsement of returning to the Golden Goal format reflects a practical assessment of player performance during extra time. In modern international knockout football, 30 minutes of standard extra time frequently leads to extreme physical exhaustion, tactical regression, and risk-averse low blocks. Teams routinely abandon offensive initiative, preferring to protect a draw and gamble on a penalty shootout. Restoring the Golden Goal—or exploring alternative ending frameworks such as the Target Score Time (TST) model used in summer tournaments—re-introduces immediate stakes, encouraging proactive attacking play while mitigating player fatigue and injury risk.
Similarly, the crew unanimously endorsed expanding international tournament rosters to 26 players. Both officials and players recognize that expanded rosters provide vital squad depth, allow managers to rotate players across dense tournament schedules, and preserve the physical intensity of the sport.
4. Speaker Perspectives & Analytical Contrast
| Participant |
Role & Background |
Primary Officiating / Tactical Focus |
Key Technical Insight |
| Ismael Elfath |
Center Referee (FIFA / PRO)
Moroccan-born American |
Executive pitch management, conflict diplomacy, player psychology |
Advocates for VAR "minimum interference" and the "70/30 acceptance rule" over strict technical perfection. |
| Corey Parker |
Assistant Referee (FIFA / PRO)
Corporate Consultant / Accountant |
Analytical precision, spatial accuracy, crew workflow optimization |
Emphasizes non-verbal trust, operational routines, and analytical problem-solving under extreme tournament isolation. |
| Kyle Atkins |
Assistant Referee (FIFA / PRO)
Off-field Culture Lead |
Line-of-sight precision, team morale, grass-roots inspiration |
Critiques VAR camera limitations; highlights the human element and public perception shift of referees as athletes. |
| Megan Klingenberg |
Host (U.S. Soccer Podcast)
USWNT World Cup Champion |
Player perspective, high-performance empathy, squad dynamics |
Emphasizes "grit over talent" in tournament roster selection; bridges player experience with referee operational reality. |
Comparing the perspectives of the guests reveals a compelling contrast in professional focus. Ismael Elfath speaks with the strategic ambition of a top-tier competitor. Rejecting the notion that match officials should be content simply participating in major tournaments, Elfath approaches refereeing with a high-performance athlete’s drive: "We're not going to go to any tournament to participate. We're going to just go to win or not go at all. And winning in our profession is you have to do these late games—the quarterfinal, semifinal, final." His mindset combines relentless preparation with charismatic authority on the pitch.
Corey Parker offers a methodical, systems-oriented counterweight. Where Elfath focuses on pitch atmosphere and emotional regulation, Parker analyzes the structural framework that enables success. His background as a corporate consultant infuses his refereeing with strict process orientation. He views crew chemistry not as a passive quality, but as an operational requirement built through shared routines, clear boundaries, and rigorous detail management.
Kyle Atkins provides grounded, pragmatic realism. He candidly addresses the technical limitations of broadcast technology and VAR camera angles, offering an unvarnished assessment of the pressures facing modern officials. Off the pitch, Atkins serves as the team’s emotional anchor, recognizing that maintaining levity and human connection is essential to surviving long tournament deployments.
Host Megan Klingenberg adds valuable perspective by drawing parallels between elite players and referees. During the episode's closing "Ask the Pros" segment, Klingenberg addressed player selection for the 2027 Women's World Cup, asserting that "grit over talent" is the single defining trait separating successful international athletes from the rest. This assessment mirrors the referee crew's emphasis on sacrifice, mental resilience, and continuous self-investment, demonstrating that elite performance across all footballing disciplines relies on identical psychological foundations.
5. Strategic & Industry Implications
The insights shared by Elfath, Parker, and Atkins carry significant strategic implications for the global football industry, influencing referee management, broadcasting, rule-making, and public engagement.
5.1 Institutional Governance and Selection Transparency
Elfath’s description of FIFA’s assignment announcements reveals the intense internal competition governing elite match officials. The process—where Pierluigi Collina stands before a quiet conference room to announce knockout assignments—operates much like an elite team's starting lineup reveal. This transparent environment reinforces performance-based accountability. Federations worldwide can learn from this model by implementing clear, performance-driven metrics for referee promotion, replacing political maneuvering with transparent evaluation.
5.2 Geopolitical Neutrality as a Strategic Asset
The appointment of an American trio to referee Argentina vs. England underscores the strategic value of geopolitical neutrality in international football. As historical rivalries between European and South American nations remain intense, crews from CONCACAF—particularly those trained in North America's diverse sporting environment—offer an impartial alternative. Free from continental biases, North American officials are uniquely positioned to serve as neutral adjudicators in high-stakes international fixtures.
5.3 Broadcaster Economics and the Fan Spectacle
The call for VAR reform directly aligns with commercial and broadcast imperatives. Continuous VAR delays, minute disruptions, and goal celebrations muted by delayed reviews harm football as an entertainment product. By refocusing VAR on clear and obvious errors and empowering on-pitch referees to manage play, FIFA can restore match pace, enhance broadcast quality, and preserve the spontaneous emotion that drives global fan engagement.
5.4 The "Referees as Athletes" Paradigm Shift
Perhaps the most encouraging cultural development discussed is the shifting public perception of match officials. Historically viewed as anonymous enforcers or targets for fan frustration, modern referees are increasingly recognized as elite athletes who undergo rigorous physical training and psychological preparation. Atkins noted this shift with pride, describing young supporters waiting post-match to request autographs, sign yellow cards, and engage with referees as relatable figures:
"We walk off the field nowadays... and there'll be a line of kids that want referee yellow cards and red cards... people are seeing that we're human. They're getting the exposure to know that in some cases we're just like them."
Humanizing match officials is vital for the long-term sustainability of the sport. As referee abuse at the grassroots level poses a major challenge for national federations, showcasing the professionalism, camaraderie, and athletic excellence of top-tier officials provides a compelling blueprint for attracting and retaining the next generation of referees.
6. Looking Ahead: Unresolved Questions & Next Milestones
As international football moves deeper into the 2026 World Cup cycle and turns its sights toward the 2027 Women's World Cup and 2030 men's tournament, several critical questions remain regarding the future of match officiating and regulatory policy:
- Formalizing VAR Restraints: Will the International Football Association Board (IFAB) formally update VAR protocols to codify the "minimum interference, maximum impact" standard, establishing higher thresholds for video intervention across domestic and international competitions?
- Evaluating Extra-Time Alternatives: Will FIFA consider testing alternative extra-time models, such as the Golden Goal or Target Score Time, in major international competitions to alleviate player exhaustion and eliminate negative tactical play?
- Institutionalizing Player Intelligence Dossiers: As analytical player profiling proves effective, will national federations and referee organizations systematically incorporate psychological intelligence and player scouting into standard pre-match referee preparation frameworks?
- Developing Next-Generation Officiating Pathways: How effectively can U.S. Soccer and PRO build upon the success of Elfath, Parker, and Atkins to establish clear pathways for young, diverse officiating talent aiming for global appointments?
The landmark performance of Ismael Elfath, Corey Parker, and Kyle Atkins in the Argentina vs. England semi-final established a new high-water mark for American officiating on the global stage. By integrating rigorous physical preparation, sophisticated player intelligence, and pitch diplomacy, the trio demonstrated that world-class refereeing relies on communication, empathy, and leadership. As the global game continues to evolve, their approach provides a clear blueprint for the future of international match officiating.
📜 View Full Episode Verbatim Transcript
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I'll give you the spicy answer. Yes, hit me getting our names called it is an incredible feeling having Pure Luigi Kalina standing in front of a room full of the the best referees in the world And here our names called it something Tough to tough to beat can I just point out how ironic it is though that the scent like the match official Is not very time sensitive Outside of the game You have you know your weaknesses. I Understanded and also for the record I've told them that I'm originally from Morocco. I'm a Mediterranean time all the time Hello, and welcome to the US soccer podcast presented by Henkel I'm your host Megan Klinginger and we have not one not two but three amazing guests on this show today I guess I should be charging triple for this one. Please welcome the three American referees From the semifinal match of England versed our gentina ischmael Elfath Corey Parker and Kyle Atkins welcome to the show guys Thanks for having us. Yeah, glad to be here Okay, I'm so excited to have you like I just said I have Have a new appreciation for referees after going to national match official camp, which I have been going top gun rough camp Earlier in the year. It was a blast and I got to appreciate more of what you all do So this world cup in 2026. I have not only been watching the players play But I've been watching the referees a bit too and just seeing how they Efficient the match how they you know keep things in order How they keep the flow going and what's going on things that I never would have Been paying attention to what before this so it was a very cool world cup for me To be able to watch from two different lenses. So thank you all for that. But we got to start here Everyone wants to know I certainly do about Argentina versus England semifinal and the men's 2026 world cup hosted on home soil before the game Even started you could hear on the broadcast the Argentina fans whistling during the entire English anthem and then the English fans were like hold up wait We're not gonna let that slide. So they were like, oh, we're gonna boo the entire Argentinian anthem I think it definitely set up an interesting dynamic It certainly wasn't an easy game to referee those teams and those fans really don't like each other Talk to me. How does it feel knowing that you're going into a game like that where there's a history of animosity and these teams are ready to throw down It's fun It's why we do it. I think you wouldn't do what we do if you didn't love the The beauty of of the game and everything around it That game in particular is one that I felt Core and I were Quonko build for it for 20 years Um having come up through both the us soccer very diverse landscape But also conka calf landscape which is also very diverse a lot of heated games And then since we started our FIFA journey almost again 10 years ago We've gotten accustomed to doing some tough intercontinental rivalries between South American European African teams and And when we were doing our usual referee speculations around appointments and we're like, oh boy That one has our name morning So uh, but but uh everything leading up to that game Prove to be that and more and yeah the pressure was real, but what we will do with all I'm going to go Yeah, I mean and you You know what the history is of the teams on the field and off the field so it's not this tricky circumstance of it's just Uh, an internament thing where there's some sort of uh, uh, you know Come to a head moment with this big massive mash. It's it's a lot more than that so at least Even though it was a lot we knew about it. We understood it you you could you could use that to your advantage going in it wasn't a surprise And now how did you find out you were going to ref this me final what did you feel when you found out that it was going to be Argentina and good I mean, I'll speak for myself. It it was a huge source of pride hearing our names called for for such a historic match Like you've talked about the the history Uh, but on the field and off the field for those two countries is immense and it's one of the most intense robberies in the sport so Getting our names called it is an incredible feeling having Pure Luigi Kalina standing in front of a room full of the the best referees in the world Uh, and here our names called it's something um Tough to tough to beat But it it showed that For such an important match that that people entrusted us Uh with with that game it really says a lot about uh, how they view us as a crew and and that were We like to say the uh, the UN of the referring community No controversy crew. So to have that trust and faith by FIFA was uh, uh, uh, we we take a lot of pride in that Is that yourself proclaimed nicknamed the UN crew that coined by uh Mr. Elfath up there I love that where did that come from the white jersey Wow No, it's it's we say in joking, but for fall we we learned about our appointments in this conference room meeting All the referees and and referees management and literally the boss stands up and calls out names And that's how you learn and you can hear a pin drop every time before he does that um Yeah, we do do um World diplomacy diplomacy when we get out there in some of these games and and um FIFA had planned to use this white referee jersey at some point during this tournament and didn't get a chance to I don't know why because the team colors etc conflict and Perigia colina Joaquin after the game we came walk they were congratulating us and When I told the man that white jersey looks good and he said for what you guys did yesterday avian i'm like this is the UN of referee and he said yeah The way you did is close to that. So I took it and that's the one I have framed. It's it's a unique one. So That's so cool. I love that and you know, honestly the way that you were talking about The referee teams being selected for the games. I'm so glad you brought that up because it is very It's very top of mind for me. It reminds me a lot of rosters There are times where I would be on teams and we would be sitting in the uh The training room or the Gosh, the team room and up on the screen It would be the day before the game You know, they would bring up the power point and they'd be like here's how we're starting And you just find out in front of everybody if you are going to be a starter or not Like you said you could hear a pin drop. It's very interesting It's um, it sounds kind of similar to what you were describing But it's all of this obviously such an honor to referee These big games like the ones that you just did the important games the ones that are the knockout rounds You They must have some criteria to select these crews for the later matches I would assume how do you pick who will ref the knockout stages and the biggest games of the tournament Yeah, so um and I think it's uh, I like your analogy claim with the players is you look at a player's experience like what have they done over the years You got him here and then you look at their form for that particular stretch of the season in our case What's the form of this crew during this world cop um So historically FIFA knows us um, you know, all the uh, I'd say the soccer Community in terms of managers and federations. They know us. They've seen us in tournaments, etc So we have that but then you have to be informed during an tournament Uh, at that point we've done three games um With some high stakes, right? You're why I went out in uh in the game that we did in Spain and and we were Called called clean like we'd have anything to do with them being eliminated Brazil and Norway Brazil Went out and in the game that we officiated again We're not the topic of conversation previously we did a game with Netherlands and Japan that went well as well And so so yeah, we were we said hey, we've done enough to be considered and that's all you could do right There are other considerations um, I have to tell you like when we walk into these tournaments and The got denied made this decision way back in 2018 or show is like guys We're not gonna go to any tournament to participate. We're gonna just go to win or or not go at all And winning in in our profession is you have to do these late games. You have to do the quarter final semi final final um So yeah, we were hoping for Uh semi final or final and of course You would want the final but I told we discussed like men if we don't get the final That game would be bigger than the final and sure sure it was so we were pretty blessed And happy with that with that call up Yeah, you all certainly had your hands full during that game. I was watching and I was like This is an outrageous match to try and take uh, you know all of these world class players and bring them into like underneath Like this umbrella of calm, which I feel like you guys did a great job of by the way because we got to watch a great match And that's truly your job is to make sure that it's fair and that everybody gets to play a great match And that's what happened And it all comes down to how well you all work together which I guess brings me to The topic of the team like you're a team within this referring group And I gotta know about this a little bit. I'm I'm quite fascinated by it When you are placed into this team is it for the whole world cup and I've noticed you've worked tons of matches together. Are you all like a package deal? I see you're all wearing pink Like clearly you all roll together. Tell me about this Uh, Corey, you want to take that and give that a step? Yeah Yeah, no, no It's there's there's a there's a long story but to keep it short I mean we all obviously have a very specific role, but we've been together since It's no alluded to it a few minutes ago Since 2018 or so our first tournament in 2019 uh, we had it Get to know each other and we spent 35 days in Poland for the U20 World Cup We then flew immediately to Dallas and we spend another chunk of days in Dallas for the gold cup And so we spent probably I think it was something like 69 that have like 74 straight days together or something You can only have Breakfast lunch and dinner and spend every three minute of your time together with each other without Figuring it all out. You're gonna fail. You're gonna figure it out. You're gonna succeed You're gonna you know take from that what you can and and keep it going But we all have rules like we all have our own thing. I'm uh, I'm uh, I'm a accountant by education Consultant by my my day job So I like to I like to try to solve problems like try to help. I'm very detailed oriented Kyle has an incredible talent for food Uh for off-the-field stuff. So he brings he brings the the The pastries to every match. She is he is a he's a pastry man And then collectively we keep as I was saying before the call Ismail on schedule We uh, you know, so he can come in land the plane do his thing and and then we make it We make it happen on the field all at the same time But know that the uniqueness of this is you have to you have to be able to want to spend time together first and foremost were friends You wouldn't spend as much time together if you didn't like each other And it wouldn't work if you didn't trust each other So that that trust that friendship is something that you know, we've built over such an incredible long amount of incredible amount of time Um, but wouldn't trade it for the world because you know, you're gonna fight like brothers and bicker a little bit But then you get on the field and you know, what you have to do together and you accomplish it. So it's it's awesome I learned a lot Go ahead. Sorry to interrupt. That's yeah, I learned a lot from the guys like I of course said 18 was the beginning and and and you learn a lot, but then then we had to translate these unique characteristics of ours to success on the field like how do we become that team that can handle You know a rivalry in Honduras between two teams where there was a death Last weekend because fans one shot another right like how do you actually walk into that Uh, preparing yourself mentally and physically and the details and everything And yes, I want to worry about what goes on between the white lines and the players But then these guys will do other preparation to help us with the logistics of The history of the teams and the history of the coaches and particular situations And so when Cory called out his attention to detail we need that I need to know when there's a lot of two players played and what happened between them I need to know the history of the coaches When Paz brings in the routine. Oh my god. The routine is what comes you down And I learned to stick to routine. I'm nowhere near Kyle But I've learned that there are some things that if you do them repeatedly They're going to calm your body down and your mind down as you walk into these things. So we learned a lot We complement each other and And FIFA they know that they know that this is a team That's going to come in and if someone is not a hundred percent dead day They know that there's enough cushion here that this team is still going to come through Can I just point out how ironic it is though that the scent like the Match official Is not very time sensitive Outside of the game You have your weaknesses Understatement also for the record I've told them that I'm originally from Morocco. I'm a mid-iterranean time all the time So mid-iterranean time is you give a boat park You're gonna do things Corey does it on the second But that's who you is this is this why we're seeing um such Like big amounts of stoppage time because you're At the end of these games we're now seeing like 14 minutes instead of the three that I was playing with I know we're not Just kidding Okay, I do want to know do you all get real-time feedback during the tournament from coaches or signers Because like as a player obviously one of the biggest things is watching video back Understanding tactics getting better at those and then taking all those things that you learn and and putting them towards The next game I would assume that you all have something similar Yeah, we I mean Amongst our crew we're always talking about how maybe we could have handled certain situations differently Sure, we were watching game film where we're rewatching our matches We're watching all the other matches going on in the tournament um We have daily debrief sessions where we're the Management is talking about the games and how we might be handling different situations differently to achieve a better outcome for the match So there's constant evaluation and feedback that we're receiving not just from Each other but from the instructors and coaches at base camp Other colleagues always seeking out trying to to find the best Best solution to any problem we might face but At the end of the day Our communication amongst our crew and and how we can improve uh Together uh and evaluating ourselves is what We lean on the most because like we we've talked about before we we trust each other impulsively So and we're not afraid to Say what needs to be said if something didn't go right I'm sure and just like you as a player in the locker room talk conversations need to happen To to get better and we're we're not afraid of doing that for the sake of improving the team overall Yeah, I can't I can't say how many times we would we'd get on uh get up in the morning after the game We'd be in the car ride to the airport and uh it smelled would say something like hey that play in the I don't know 70th minute or so I was watching the game back last night You know, I saw it and we had this angle but then you said I don't know something Maybe we could say that differently. Maybe we could maybe we could figure out a way to find to our communication And so it might not even been a big decision at the time But it's it's sort of us all playing our different roles is of you know, how do we how do we Make that fine-tuned change to make a better result on the sit maybe the smallest of details Maybe the world doesn't even see it, but then we get a better faster you know more effective result on on the back end then To cop to kind of expand what Kyle said we get back to our base camp in Miami and you know Not only do we have a debrief with the entire Referee delegation every day But then there's there's the specialists that we all have so there's there's a handful of you know, referee centric people a handful of assistant referee centric you know coaches and mentors and and we get an incredible amount of Opportunities really just to just get their feedback and one-on-one conversations. It's really special and sometimes it can be um The things that the people who appreciate you and know the most about what you're going through because they're the ones who have been there in the past So you can trust their opinions you know what they know they've been through the exact same situations exact same matches It's a really can have you know add a lot of value into kind of your experience and help you get better and better and better even within the small kind of tournament view of it You Your soccer seems so simple right you have one ball eleven players on each side You can't use your hands and yet try and kick it into the net more times than the other team right like But how deceiving because I can't tell you how many times I've been sitting with my teammates watching a game And we're all arguing over whether that was a handball or a penalty kick or whatever and everybody has a different opinion So it makes me think like how often do you have to take classes to refresh on rules or learn new rules because I personally loved this New rule about leaving the field for two minutes if a player needed treatment from the athletic trainer That really stood out to me. I felt like it was such a great way to keep the flow of the match going especially in a men's side woke up Yeah, yeah, I mean for us We're part of the professional referee organization in the US lucky because we have Continuous education the referees are meeting every month in camp for four or five days The ARs have their camps and their online education and the and they're doing games every week and there's feedback every week So continuously we're getting the refresher Clean what happens when you get to the quote quote elite level tournaments and performance It's not only about interpretation and application of the law It's about acceptance Can the stakeholders accept what you're doing? Because no decision is 1,000 per cent 100 per cent like this way or the other when it's 70 30 can they accept what you're selling And that's where the art of refereeing comes in it's about what you do throughout the game The small decisions the communication the one-on-ones the soft talks the big talk all the stuff Gives you a particular persona within that field some of it has baggage these players they might know you from before That could help sometimes they don't But you have that and then you have what you're doing during the game for them to get to the point where they say Yes, I'm going to give him some grief, but I accept what's happening here What we don't want to do is be right and not accepted Could be 100% right you still know one accepts you that's what we're trying to avoid Through our player management and referee management and match tempo management is to get ourselves to be both correct and Accepted which will be that perfection we're looking for right I love that you bring that up because I think about VAR a lot as a player. I played under it a little bit, but not Not the entire part of my career and most of my career I played without VAR and I love what you were just talking about as well because You Like I think people think in the future VAR could possibly replace referees But to me that will never happen especially because of those small talks how you are able to Interact with players and bring calm into the match There's just so much more the referee does on top of just making calls and blowing their whistle and raising the flag I do want to know though Since I get a chance to ask really great referees about VAR how do you feel about it like and why does sometimes it takes a long I personally I I love it because it gives us the opportunity to Get the calls right for the betterment of the game all we're trying to do is What we're stewards of the game we want to see the best outcome in any given match We want what's fair and right for the game and VAR gives us that opportunity if we get something Totally wrong In the past like you said we didn't we didn't get that opportunity and to be able to go to the monitor to get told Factual information about something that's happened that we didn't see clearly or didn't Didn't have the right position you'd be able to see at all It is a huge benefit for us not just us as referees be able to get a right book for the game and for for everybody who's watching it and enjoying it So for me I think it's it's totally worth it. It it stinks When you make a decision and you get it wrong But as long as you have have the mindset of well the VAR is correcting it And this is for the betterment of the game It's easy for me to die easier for me to digest it and move on because ultimately the correct decision was made Yeah, and from a timing standpoint When it takes too long it stinks for everybody including us right because we've made the decision And now we're wondering for what feels like an eternity Is it right? Is it wrong? Do I do? Does it smell? I need to go to a monitor What's the what's the next step on top of just? Okay, maybe we'll write me just move on the good news is I mean, I think the technology itself gives us the opportunity To a provide some sort of comfort. Okay, we'll get this right no matter what the Kyle's point But then also all the rest technology like I can focus as an assistant referee on my offside decisions And then I can go use my extra time when we're getting extra support to go engage with the coaches or something I can I can manage the game in a different way from my unique role as an assistant in ways that maybe I couldn't otherwise Because okay the balls back in play I got to get I got to get to it And there's another decision another decision another decision This gives a sort of an opportunity to have an impact Another maybe behind the scenes ways the goal on way I can have a quiet word of the coach I can talk to an assistant coach I can talk to a player who's just sitting there frustrated. So I actually I like kind of that unique perspective of it Takes too long and that stinks. I think we all wish it was faster in all cases But when it's not okay, it's not the end of the world either We just have to make the best of it. So it's gonna make the right outcome even if not quite perfect yet I'll give you the spicy answer Yes, hit me our situation where There's a situation where Football doesn't accept what the AR is doing. They just don't Even if it's correct to cause for you know a goal cancered by a toe Which is factually correct that somehow it's not accepted Right and every league and every tournament has exposed certain scenarios where yeah the technology says this is the case But then Just didn't sit well with the world. It just didn't right. I think there was One of the teams that forget which one Iran or Iraq was eliminated because of an interpretation based on the heartbeat Whether the ball touched someone's head or not Which is to the naked eye doesn't look like it did but we have factual technology information that says it did Even with that people somehow it didn't sit well with them. So our job In this profession is to listen to football And apply VAR as close to where it's gonna be accepted as possible That's why you see application of VAR very from country to country and it varies over time Right, we went from a place is where they say like MLS Very highlight of intervention clear and obvious. Yes, it might be a soft penalty But is it clearly wrong if it's not we're gonna leave it alone and everyone knows that and they accept it and they're okay In MLS we don't have the lines On VAR they just is it clearly off or on if they ask we go with it and they accept it So but other places they implemented the technology and it wasn't accepted. So our job in VAR because it's a tool There's still some art to it We have to decide when to get involved and what does the game ask for and I think I think my personal opinion that there's a shift Where we we want to go back to the origin of why VAR was introduced in 2016 which is a bit more of Minimum interference maximum impact You know the clear ones the big ones that no one sleeps at night if they if they stay it's completely injustice versus the the microscopic I think personally that football is going more that way Uh, and the game and football is asking for it that way in the fans versus more into More technology more microscopic more actually correct That's my take of it. I think we have to continue to to miss him Yeah, it's interesting though So I did a game this weekend with Kyle and we're in New York City Yankee Stadium It's a baseball stadium and we all think they are okay. There's a couple of people in a room They have all the angles Every you know, they can zoom in. It's high depth. It's perfect. Don't look at the right decision And we're sitting on the field which seemed like Clear penalty now. We have to remember there's two people looking at a potential gray area situation Do I do I get involved do I not do I do I overturn a penalty big game changing decisions And then they don't they don't have the right angles right? It's not a matter of right or wrong It's that they got to look through every angle then to find the best one then look at the best one try to make a decision And so we're putting a lot of pressure on people Just to try to figure out can they even get involved? Not alone make a right decision so that's really tough I think everywhere around the world thinks especially at the world We can maybe with the world cup you have more cameras you have you have better technology But outside of that not every mash has that and there's a lot of that trying to do the right thing For the game as Ismail said and how do I figure out where and when to do that But it might just not be possible in other cases And so that's that detracts from the value of the AR in some cases when when you when you just don't have it But you still have to try so that's about that's the behind the scenes I think people struggle with a little bit of the understanding of how to use it And why is it not used when it should be maybe in their minds It does feel like VAR and referring in general is a subtle science and an exact art And it does They're obviously is like so much pressure and I think a lot of times we focus on the negative From a media aspect of like what people got wrong instead of what they got right And I think a lot of that Spotlight Sometimes turns people away from wanting to be referees But obviously you all are having a blast doing it and I want to know what drew you to referring in the first place Well for me it was an easy way to make money when I was a kid I'm sure it's the story of a lot of referees me too Yeah, my my my sister and I played were we were always out the fields my dad was a a field marshal and He would stay out of the fields all day And eventually he was like well if I'm going to be out here all day I want you out here making some money with me. So start be become a referee And so I took the course and I caught the bug and I started enjoying it just from close humble beginning Just trying to make some money on a weekend I mean, I'll say just to build on that one because obviously I started as a I started as a 13-year-old and The money you get from a weekend at a tournament was was awesome But I had these guys will probably laugh and roll their eyes a little bit I have an older brother two and a half years older than me and I was like well he can referee and he did I can do that better I'm gonna go out there and I'm gonna be faster than him. I'm gonna do a better job than him And I'll leave him in my dust and and I got lucky because that helped motivate me to not just do it To try to improve myself, but then also stay with it probably was I probably would have not stayed with it Had I not had that you know connection family competitiveness, but then also making money So it all works together in a way little way, but that's it drove me early on My story is different I started a referee because I was always mad at the referees when I was a player I'll always go complain always And I played a little bit in the usl back then called pdl division always complained And then when I wasn't good enough to continue there. I was just playing Austin men's premier amateur league and Always complaining and then the guy always tells me the same thing if you don't like it change it Go be cover referee and I always dismiss him like and I'll walk away and then one day I took him up on it and And And it's funny because if he didn't follow up on that Wednesday for me to come on the for the referee clinic on Saturday I probably didn't would not have shown up But he did and I showed up and that was the beginning for me and then what so that's how I started, but then what got me hooked Is really the It's the best seat in the house if you want to be as close professional soccer as you want It's the best seat in the house and and you really do enjoy the game from a completely different perspective when you're in the middle there and it's competitive with heck so and I'm a competitor. So I like it Do you all study tactics like do you know the tactics like Argentina and England are going to employ in the games and Have to study that to kind of get ahead of what will happen Yes, so both in in mls and also in fiefel from fiefel in particular They bring two full-time coaches. There's they're actually soccer coaches. They don't know nothing about refereeing And their job is to prepare prepare Statically, but also situationally for for the match So what does this team do based on the matchups? But what are they going to do when they're up or down or you know, they have a red card etc. How will they play? What what we have to do in our own is what I mentioned earlier Is is really study the history of the of the players individually Because again, if you want to be something Above and beyond good you have to do something exceptional And if if you want to be exceptional or refereeing you have to know that you have 22 unique men that you have to manage So what's their story? What kind of season did they have who has a contract who doesn't who has a problem with another player? How do they talk when they're angry when they're happy when they're hurt and if you don't study this And and visualizing prepare yourself for that interaction then You might work and might not work And and for us is that preparation both tactically but also individually each player is what what helps me personally to To anticipate and manners of players That makes me think like going internally. I would be so scared to see what my Megan Klingerberg book Uh referee book says about me don't tell me I really actually don't want to know Uh, but I did want to tell you that I talked to the referee goat carry sites to prep for this interview And she gave me a lot of insight into your backgrounds And let me just pause and say that she gave you all glowing reviews and coming from carry That seems like it's the highest praise. I've noticed that she doesn't give that lightly. So I just wanted you all to hear that It's very nice of her Yeah, here's here's the goat she really is a legend for for us It's a good opportunity for me to call out the the support that he's given us to her in her department to be in distribution Uh, you can see it. We're referees come from some of their federation that kind of support they have We have some of the best sport in the world and uh kudos to her and hold on her in the park mentioned And uh and help in a foul also Fresher up they are new kids Yeah, I thought it was I thought it was cool too. I mean we did a match uh In Mexico into Luca. We did the champions concafce discuss final right before going to the world cup and carry and team And some of the folks from the freshman reviewers organization came out to the match in Mexico and so They went out of their way left the country came to a game to support us Which was which is awesome and then carry came to Came to a couple of games for us and I know for for Tori and team as well So that support means the world when you know your backs are against the wall You got all the pressure out there to perform and then your teams right there with you, which is just really special All right guys, let's play a little game and this one should be really fun It's time for red card or play on presented by truly this summer drink like a believer Believer Apparently Justin Bieber's in the house drink like a believer with truly hard celtzer the official hard celtzer review a soccer must be 21 Please drink responsibly. Okay, 26 player rosters red card or play on Oh play Play on play on I want more more Oh, I love that I want more players more opportunities for people at the highest level because injuries happen You need to be able to rotate the squad the tournament is expanding getting bigger You need to be able to supplement that with more players and on the training field because injuries happen And you need to be able to rotate players and give the other people the opportunity and the pride of being able to be selected for the national team That's the a career achievement for for people to include more people in that. I think it would be wonderful What about you do then we need more substitutes though That might have to happen if that was the case, but I'm I'm willing for that to happen if it means more people involved Brownie points with the for the players so Yes more players more roster spots more contracts more played time I'm always gonna see yes I love that I love that more soccer for everybody sleeping with socks on red card to play on Uh play on red card. I mean, I don't know if I care, but red card. I Sometimes my teeth get cold, huh? Kind of was a very cool place. It's tough My girlfriend's the same. She's like I get cold and I was like it's weird I just want to put on cold It's not every night thing You're like just in the middle of January. Yeah Okay last one here and this one I uh feel particularly strongly about so uh bringing back golden goal and extra time Yes Yes, I'm so into that too guys like I think that it's just so exciting and also I don't want to play 120 minutes Exactly. We don't want to refer you 120 minutes The funny something funny every time we do a knockout game it goes to extra time Won't I know that you can find all Olympics every time we do it Yes, golden goal please But don't you feel like it kind of ruins like the later matches because players are just so tired from playing So try amount of minutes. It changes tactics you see players are tired like you said teams regress and send a low block and they just They don't want to go and take risks going forward and potentially opening themselves up to a counter it It takes a lot away from the game. I I love the uh the TST model and wherever game ends on a goal that I love that tournament. I think we should have more of that That is players off the field At the end why not all right you heard it here first we're coming up with some innovative ideas for this next world cup I do want to end here because I think it's important. I want to know how do you think That your journey this world cup in 2026 and beyond inspires other young referees and what would you tell them Who are just getting into it? That they can be the best in the world that they are the best in the world that that we our program Is the best in the world and I say that and I'm not arrogant or shy about saying it because I'm in the middle of it And I have seen its impact on the tournaments that we go to not just us not just me starting all the way from Margeiger and then on to Myself and then Tori and whoever is going to come next We're constantly that we're doing the most important games in the world And that's not random that's a testament to what we have born on here and tell them is Why I mentioned earlier prepare harder than anyone else in the planet Find yourself confidence journey and create a routine which you only get from experience of mentors and then If guys limit you should beat whatever else that or pencil it you should do something bigger whatever that Yeah, I'll build on that. I mean and you have to invest in yourself a little bit like I didn't I didn't start thinking I was gonna go to referee to world cup to Kyle's comment earlier I mean, I was like I just want to make some money in the weekend You know and then and then the bug hits you and you're Traveling for for this and then you're traveling to bigger places bigger tournaments Then you get into professional league you're an MLS and and it's not just To the point earlier about okay, we have all the support in the world to get there It's that you have to make it happen and and I think The things I've seen is get older. I have a job a family It's harder to keep your body ready for those moments But it is something that if you put in the time you put in the extra work You invest in the things that you need to be able to get out on the field and do your job Like it's gonna lead to some incredible opportunities We just got through every the world cup and and again be successful in kind of making it all work in your life in your life Family soccer a job. I've been able to kind of do all of those things and I think that gives me some incredible Not just opportunity, but balance in my life and each then works well with each other So it can happen no matter what your background is as long as you put in the time and invest in yourself It's it's been an incredible privilege to get to go and represent all of the referees across the country At at the world stage and to hopefully inspire the next generation coming up to to try and Push for that those same goals. It's it's so amazing getting the outpouring of support that we've seen from From everybody all across the country cheering us on Wishing us while telling us that they've they've got the bug. They want to go referee They want to get to where we are someday It's it's it's a big source of pride for for me and I'm sure for Ismail and Corey To hear those words of encouragement and to know that we've had some kind of impact on our community at large and My advice to anybody who is is on that journey is to to Be humble and to like ish was saying control the things that you can control your preparation your work rate Your dedication to the game It when I was a kid in college. I started taking refereeing seriously I would forego weekends at college to come referee matches So it takes sacrifice and dedication For the ultimate goal of trying to to get to the top But it's it's so worth it It's been an incredible privilege. It's really cool. We walk off the field nowadays And this has been a shift for the last couple of years And there'll be a line of kids that want referee yellow cards and red cards And and I walked off the I left dc united for the game I did my first game back to roll it up and some kids wanted autographs It's such a weird world When you think about traditional like referees But but people are seeing that we're human. They're getting they're getting the exposure to know that in some cases We're just like them and and that's awesome because it's it's getting coming full circle I love that thanks guys. That's excellent advice It's clearly sounds like it's very hard But all the best things in the life are hard. They're worth it That's the reason why they're hard right so because It's got to be it's got to be something that not everybody is going to be able to do But that's the thing I love about this game so much no matter who you are or what level you're at referee and coaching play wise If you're an athletic trainer You can participate at any level and that's really such a beautiful part of this game Thank you ismail thank you kyle thank you korey It was so wonderful watching you this summer. It's so fun having you on this show I know everybody has appreciated your time. So thank you so much for being here Of course, Clayton. Thank you very much appreciate the time Thanks for what you do around us What Amazing conversation with korey kyle and ismail They gave us some great insight and I know we could have kept talking for hours because quite frankly I had many more questions prepared but with four people he happened about the game who Clearly are very passionate about it We didn't get to like half of them Okay, we had to end it but you know how this show goes we always end on a high with Ask the pros sponsored by oh Riley auto parts This is where you can ask me a question and I'll get back to you and answer it on the show I love hearing your questions. It's one of my favorite ways to engage with the audience So please send them in okay Lindsey from Nashville wants to know The uswnt continues to evolve as new players emerge and competition for the walk up roster spots Intensifies from your experience What do you think will be the most important quality beyond talent that separates the players who ultimately make the roster Lindsey it's 100% grit okay It is hard to go into every single camp every single month leaving your family staying in a hotel room eating food that you don't usually eat Like it is a grind it is a total grind waking up and Playing soccer every single day going through video seeing all of your Mistakes and then everybody else pointing them out and then just like competing and Trying to be better than every single person there It is an absolute grind and the only way that you get through it is with grit You could be the most talented player in the world But if you don't have grit you're not going to be selected Lindsey. Thank you so much for that question It's a good one It's it's always important to think about outside of outside of talent So thank you for that perspective shift We do have one more it is from Brett from Miami Brett wants to know the uswnt has seen so many young players step up and make an impact over the past year Which part of this team's evolution has you most excited about was ahead as they continue building towards the 2027 walk up You know what I'm just excited for all these players to be In one camp in one place grinding it out getting better building the chemistry and then seeing what happens in 2027 We literally have not seen all of the best players on this women's walk up team playing on one team since The Olympics there have been pregnancies there have been injuries There have been players who were out of form and now back in form and I just want to see everybody get healthy Everybody get back into form and seeing them all in one place I think that is where the magic is going to happen, but That's not something that that these players or any of us are entitled to it is so special to have all of these players Healthy and playing at the top of their game at one time And so let's see if that happens. That's what I am most excited about for this 2027 walk up Let's get everybody back on the pitch together get the gang back together All right, Brett. Thank you to you and Lindsey I really appreciate your questions and if you have a question for ask the pros drop our partners westwood one a DM on Instagram at westwood one sports All right, that's it for this episode of the us soccer podcast. We'll see you next week and do not forget Follow us so you never miss an episode
