Inside FIFA's Crisis: The Collapse of Gianni Infantino's $20B Private Equity Deal

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We've all watched as a world of football is in a state of civil war six days ago. News broke in the English media that FIFA President Gianni in Fantino was circulating a plan to sell off 20% of the World Cup to private investors, including the Kushner family, and create a $20 billion new company to run the World Cup, of which he ultimately become quite a highly paid commissioner, cue global outcry UEFA, the European governing body threatening to boycott all FIFA events, FIFA leaders resigning, revolting, and a four-day chaos of darkness, of Maya, of Coldnake greed, which led to in Fantino aborting the plan by Friday. Remember all of this just 15 days on from a quite glorious World Cup's conclusion. Gianni in Fantino's premiership now on the brink, speed of his downfall, been extraordinary to witness, scramble of power plays, did honestly make house of the dragon, something like some kind of rom-com. This stuff complicated, slightly mad, like why is a nonprofit breaking in billions in need of raising money in the first place? Why is an organisation tasked with overseeing and safeguarding football in danger of breaking it? Where are the checks and balances? Who's watching the watchman? And even though the plan is over, make no mistake, footballs forever change, the infighting continues. This is no case of threat-thwarted or bullet dodged, so to understand what happened, and how this week will change football's future forever. When I want to know the answer to the question, football seems safe, but for how long? I always turn to one man, and one man only, turret-panger, global sports reporter for the New York Times, when he spends his life staring into the football bureaucracy abyss, so you don't have to, turret, can I get still standing? I think I have a chance of standing a bit longer than Jenny and Fantina, and that is a remarkable thing to say. Got to let that sink him, because that is my first question. The proposal to sell chunks of the World Cup to private investors has collapsed, there's anger, globally, it's an enormous humiliation, but is Jenny and Fantina's 10 and a half year presidency a fever? Is it over, clinging to power? Is it a matter of when, not if? It certainly feels like that, and if it was a normal company, a normal business, normal organization, he would have gone by the time we've recorded this, but as you've so definitely described in the intro, this is not a normal company, this is not a normal industry, and this man is clinging on for grim life, and he still has supporters around the world, despite all of this, and what do we mean by all of this? This is, as you said, civil war. This could break the World Cup, and in a way, I was hoping that it actually goes through, because then you rubber really hits the road, what are you going to do at the moment? You've got this threat of a boycott, but if it did happen, you get the idea that these European nations were going to walk away from this, and that explodes, the football set up as we know it, the fever as we know it, and this is after Raju and I talked about this, I believe, before the Qatar World Cup. We looked back at the perp walk from the Boralak Hotel, that the previous generation of FIFA leaders, set blatters crew, took in 2015, and thought that was going to change FIFA forever. If anything, it is very much the same as it was then, and then on steroids, maybe not the cartoon corruption, but the kind of strange behaviour, where money rules, committee places, expensive syndicures, people not wanting to speak up, but here we are at this moment, and it does seem very interesting. You almost wanted to blow the whole thing up, because that is the only radical surgery that's going to create change, and we will get to that, but we do need to dive in. I want to walk through step by step, how we got here, and what happens now, but before we do so, I want to acknowledge the joy that football can bring you, the joy the World Cup brought us, it's crazy to me, it's just 15 days later, here we are, just back in the Maya, and I want to say none of us become football fans to follow the bureaucracy of the game, the administration, it's kind of like loving hot dog eating contest, because you do love how the sausage is being made, but here we are, and a word to you viewers, I'm going to try and keep this as simple as possible to try and relive the beats, try and understand the tectonic plate shifting below the surface, and I hope this is a show that everyone can kind of follow along, but in the deepest way, not just on the surface, so let's start, last Tuesday, Lord, it was just six days ago, when the Times of London, Mind Zeagler, when all the presidents, man, wrote the story of how a 25 paid sales deck entitled FIFA Forward Enterprise Member Materials, has been circulated in the highest circles of FIFA's Johnny and Fantino, the president of FIFA proposing the creation of a new company to run FIFA's commercial operations, 20% of which will be sold to Joshua Kushner, US Investor, also happens to be the brother of Donald Trump's son-in-law, Jared Kushner, backed by American Bank JP Morgan, they also were the bankers for the super league, going again for post a quite crude plan, fairly vague at the time of more tournaments, debt financing, higher ticket prices to drive profits for FIFA, we'll dig into the deal in a moment, but a technical journalistic question first, Harriet, you cover FIFA, it's a court of intrigue, into court of power, plays, occasional backstabbing, how does this debt get into the hands of the journalist in the first place? Is it someone with him, FIFA's in the court leaking, right? I mean, how common is it? I think it's fairly common, to be honest, because it's so driven, and I think I've some short memories, Johnny and Fantino tried to do this in 2018, tried to sell FIFA to Softbank, Japanese, Conglomerate had a golf interest, surprise surprise in there as well, and he was trying to raise $25 billion at that point, and I remember writing about that myself, and that was because, it's very, very similar, Johnny and Fantino walks into a council meeting in Bogota in 2018, slapped his contracts on the table, they've got no names on them, all ND80s said, just put your names on it lad, and I'm going to bring you $25 billion, and the people in the room, hang on, sorry, well in 60 days you're going to sell this, and again, it's exactly the same actors, Alexander Shefferen. Yeah, for president. Correct, saying we aren't, we aren't going to play ball, and very quickly this stuff came out, and very quickly killed, that led to, I kind of think, like a decade long, animus between Alexander Shefferen, UEFA president, UEFA, and FIFA, and Johnny and Fantino, the president there, and this is the world of football, this is very, very similar, this is how it breaks. The media puts a story out, and if you noticed, within minutes, if not seconds, the comments are ready to come flying out, these guys were told up, told up, I love that, I love that, it's a great ending to you, that's told up, and I love the beginning, which sounds like Johnny and Fantino walks into the bar, sounds like the beginning of a terrible joke, but can you also just explain to listeners, something to be so basic, but there's something that I need help with, what private equities involvement in football does, it seems like a crazy question, why is it bad, because UEFA actually wrote it about it really well, in their first statement, by the way, despite the fact, they've allowed private equity to roll into club football, and their first letter of opposition, this is their quote, they said, the moment external investors acquire ownership interest in FIFA competitions, football changes forever, commercial return becomes a permanent obligation, investor expectations become a daily pressure from that moment onwards, every decision on competition, football format, and every decision shaping the future of football no longer driven by what best serves the game, but by what best serve shareholders, this model has no place in world, football, football cannot mortgage its future for financial gain. What they're saying, through in those words, like for fans to understand people at home, remember those really expensive world cup ticket prices we've just sat through, well that will become the normal, because you have to drive revenue as high as you can, those hydration breaks, well hang on, it might be cold, we don't need them, now we're going to have hydration breaks, because they're also known as ab breaks, so all of that type of tuning to suit the whims and needs of your investors, that will happen more and more equally, choice of where the world cup should be hosted, well why don't we go to the places that can pay us, what more money? Yep, we'll go there again and again, so that's what they were getting at, from the fact that football straddles a lot of society, yes it does straddle enterprise and big business, but it does also have a culture of role, it has a societal role, it has a sporting role, you know, whether you're participating in it or whether you're following it, it has all of these hats, what they're saying is no, no, after this, just one big sombrero. I'm quite interested in one big sombrero, when you tell it, I'll be in Mexico. Miguel Delaney wrote quite articulately, he said, in the independent, it's been described as a quote, very bad securitization deal for an asset that isn't even distressed, the question at Hungover was FIFA City on billions of dollars in reserve, it has no debt, why do this? Again, a simple question, but how do you even sell the basic idea? It's very hard to and you don't need us to do it. One of the people that has walked out on Janie in Fantino is his senior advisor, someone known to probably a lot of your audience, Carlos Cordero, former head of US soccer, he was a former Goldman Sachs vice chairman for Asia, so a man you would think would know a little bit about money and investments. So if you take Carlos Cordero's statement of resignation at its word, he was left out in the cold, he only found out about it in the media reports, in the dispatches and was horrified by what he saw, not only the fact that he didn't know anything about it, as a senior advisor to Janie. Yeah, like this is the guy, why would you get this guy if you're not going to tell him about things like this, you know, and he just says similar, you know, to what you've just quoted in Miguel's piece there, which is FIFA is swimming in cash, it has so much money, you know, I've heard it said, and I believe it to almost as too much money, that's why this money is going all over the place to these federations, whether they need it or not, they all get the same amount. And here we have this promise for more. And the point Carlos Cordero made was like, we could do that anyway, we don't need to sell the family China. So, you know, we've talked about private equity coming into sports and into other industries, well, usually these businesses are in trouble, like COVID has happened, they've got a debt pile that needs to be serviced some other way, they need this money desperately because private equity money is not easy money, the easy money to go to the bank, you get a loan, but this is this is almost like you're giving up something because you need it so badly. FIFA really does it. So then your question was, why would you do it? So you're looking at this thing and you got the deal is $4.2 billion for 20% of this business, which they're valuing at 20 billion. We've just come through a 15 billion dollar, which I think is conservative. I've heard recently it could be anything as much as $17 billion that the takings from the World Cup in 2026. So, you're giving away this at such a low price to these people. Key Bono, like who's benefiting here? And the only answer that people seem to suggest is, well, whoever's going to run this thing is in for a real win for when this happens. So, we've seen the reports. I haven't been able to confirm this, but Janie and Fantino becoming a commissioner-style person on Roger Goodell's style money, they call it the NFL boss $60 million at the moment. Janie and Fantino is probably the best paid head of a non-profit in the world. It would be taking home around $6 million. That's not bad, Roger, is it? It's not podcasting. Tell it. I mean, ultimately, it's one to the question why you would do it. You would do it if. If it's maybe something to gain for you personally, maybe, again, this is where the speculation goes, while there is this opacity in the deal, while there's no clarity, while no deal sheet has been published, that is where smart minds, people in the business world, are going to. It's not just me saying this to you. They are suggesting that whoever's going to run this thing is in for a decent chunk of change in return. I mean, my reaction, I've got to be candid when I read all of this, because it all seems so familiar to me as someone who lives in America and watches American sports, watches American life, watches American politics. It is very, very American. I said this before, the World Cup football for good or for bad is about to enter it to American centuries. This is what the 2026 World Cup almost hit the markings, already so many of the biggest clubs in the world already run by American investors. FIFA has been in our culture here since 2018, out of my army, organizing this World Cup. This felt very much how business is currently done here. How politics is done here. Sports, sports leagues are increasingly done here. But what was truly fascinating, and you've hit some of this, when the contours of the plan, which were when first reported, relatively vague were fleshed out by reporting. Martin Ziegler wrote a piece in the Times again yesterday, which he kind of broke down how the whole World Cup arc retrospectively, how so many of the decisions were designed to almost build up a lead to this investor sale. The decision, he starts with the decision to suspend Cristiano Ronaldo's red card. He was not going to be in the first two games of the World Cup, but then lo and behold, he goes to a White House dinner that suspension is suspended. The hydration breaks, which you mentioned, which added a new asset to commodify. He goes into detail on the Trump piece price, the insane ticket prices, even the Glitzy half-time show again, another asset to commodify down the pike and then and then the Balagun decision. But again, the White House had effectively become in Fantina's future partners, flexing their muscle, publicly reshaping the competitive contours of the World Cup in the way they wanted it to be commercially, start wattage wise and then the personal kicker in Ziegler's article in Fantina. He was grappling with term limits as FIFA president. I think this fourth term will be irrespective of what happens now is last, turning himself into a commissioner. Ziegler reports, I think it's starting salary of $30 million plus bonuses, according to whistleblowers. When you look back at the 2026 World Cup and the beats now, Tariq is it cynical to say it was both a football tournament which I enjoyed going to be candid, but it was also a glossy brochure to create a stampede of private investors. You and I have talked about this on previous shows as well. How much we love the World Cup, because it reminds us of our childhood. There's a purity at least in our minds about what it should be. And here you have the monopolist, FIFA that owns this, and nobody else owns it. This is the other amazing thing here. You don't need to sell this thing to anybody else. You're selling oxygen. What a thing to have in your hand and no one else can do it and you want to give it to Jared Kushner's brother at discount. What a strange world we're in. You mentioned the American organization, the American element of this, and you've gone through that. But I also think we also saw a hint of this just before, club World Cup. Leonardo Messi, who with Cristiano Ronaldo is one of the three most famous human beings on the planet. I think Taylor Swift is the person in between them. He, somehow, and his team into Miami, were made champions of a tournament that never existed somehow. They even got a trophy, I think, and were shoehorned into this new club World Cup. That, again, is moving the dial. Belatedly. Yeah, moving the dial, put your finger on the scale. Let's try and tweak it this way to get the wattage, as you said, into this competition. We also saw dynamic pricing that became a bit of a story in the World Cup first trial here in the club World Cup. So, yeah. Again, another norm in American sporting culture that the world was like, what is that? Again, these norms coming out of here. The world looks at them and say, I don't, it's just jarring with the football culture that I understood and grew up with. That's kind of the, that's one of the great dislocations we're grappling with it. The other element, I guess, is the cynicism of all of this, because Gianni and Fantino, whoever, I think, from my reporting, is he seems to have done this very much in terms of advisors on his own, on his side, not the investor side, because, you know, that's an army of cushioners and JP Morgan's and all the rest of it. But he found himself believing in his own hype so much. He excluded the entire FIFA management from something as significant as this. From my understanding is they found out, and this is mad, this thing had been going on for at least a year, they found out this is like the top blutinance, the people who run the FIFA administration on the day before the World Cup final, the World Office story. I think there was a meeting there and they were under pressure because they have to try and sign off this. I'm not sure they all did. And this is one man's vision. Headstrong. Did you mind you of anyone? He spent a lot of time in the, in the Oval Office recently. He, he's very much of his own mind. The norms have been broken. This is what's going to happen. But where he's run out of road is he pushed the cynicism, I think, so far, because all he thought was, all I've got to do is pay these guys a bit more money and they'll just let me do it. I want to just take a minute to go a tiny bit deeper on this because I want to get to the, the response. I want to get to the repercussions. One of the things I understand the least in this one, Johnny and Fantino is many things. You know, he presents himself in a certain way on the surface, but he is an incredibly county politician. He is demonstrated to this point an incredible understanding of the levers of power. It is not like Johnny and Fantino to leave himself so, so politically exposed. So I'm trying to understand the miscalculation. Was it just a feeling of invulnerability? Almost, you know, when you fly from city to city in private planes with the world's television cameras, but are we forced to be on you at every match at prescribed times? When you can't afford the press, face to face for an extended period, do you just become a no one can touch me? Mentality. I just organize the Messi and Bappé Hall and World Cup that was bigger than anything in the world. Was this an active leaker just seizing a chance to stab him in the back? We have to look at the evolution of Johnny and Fantino. I think he wasn't a county politician. He got to where he got to. But if you see the last year of Johnny and Fantino, he allows us to see this. His Instagram has become his point of contact with the world. Now I've been covering FIFA for about 20 years, and I remember we'd set bladder, his preaches. However bad it got and it got very bad, he would always show up at press conference. We'd have like six of these years, and they were quite entertaining in a way, because it was complete chaos really, but he would always step up, and he actually had a kind of sense for showmanship in a way, in Fantino doesn't in a way, and would be willing to spar with the media. Johnny and Fantino feels a bit more prickly, a bit more sensitive, and doesn't like being questioned, and he's done so many things that we've not been able to ask him any questions about. For example, giving the World Cup to Saudi Arabia for 2034, that's a whole other show probably in itself. So this Instagram account, what it does though, it gives you this window into his life, it gives you into window of who Johnny and Fantino is the man, and what we see is a guy who seems very much seduced by very powerful people, very rich people, and very famous people. Now, 211 football FA heads, most of them are probably none of those things. He kind of, I think, lost touch with his base, if you want, and he would maybe pose for a photo with them, but he didn't have time for them. He's in that other sphere with the plutocrats, and I think that is maybe a part of how this miscalculation could have come about, because, as I said earlier, none of his advisors were around him. The chief executive of the organization seemed not to know about this until very late in the day. So when you're so far unmoored from what you were supposed to be, the organization, you're supposed to lead, and the people who you are supposed to serve, there's a very good chance that something like this could happen. Now, on the other hand, there are a lot of people who are very much waiting to seize on the moment to take advantage of this. He's not a very popular person inside the halls of FIFA, it seems. We can get into that when we talk about some of the resignations that have been made. He's not very popular in Europe, the place where he made his bones, his career at UEFA. He's pretty much a persona non-grata there. They can't wait to see the back of this guy. So here is this group that is ready, as I said earlier, told up. So he gives them, as someone said, a tap in. When you hang out with ice-hoespeed, life just changes forever. You've walked through a door that the others could not follow in through, and cue that response, the tool that response, it was a media, and it was nuclear. There was a lull for one second. That kind of aftershot that was akin for many to when that preposterous plan for the super league was first announced. But man, enter UEFA. You've mentioned them, the European governing body, their president, Alexander Scheferin, a Slovenian former trial lawyer. We've had him on our showies. He's a very, very candy human being, long FIFA's rival, as you said, long and antagonist. And can I just say, it takes a lot these days to unify Europe. So I guess congratulations to FIFA for doing that on Thursday after an emergency meeting, 55 nations of UEFA, including many of the biggest teams in the world. Sixth of the last eight quarterfinals come from the UEFA region. The teams were certainly with the most commercial muscle. You anonymously agree to be caught all FIFA competitions, including the World Cup. And the quivically reject was their terms, FIFA president, Johnny and Fantino's plan. Remember, women's World Cup just ruined in 25 days away today. Under 20, women's World Cup starts at the beginning of September. I mean, this is very nuclear. I think in American terms, UEFA threatening to leave the World Cup site, the SEC threatening to pull out of the college football playoffs, Conker Caff, later the same day announced they were angry at the process, not the idea, which is fascinating, but they rejected the plan, no boycott there. And then a very polite rejection from the Asian Football Confederation later that day. Asia were not angry at the idea, but more quote that it divides football. But ultimately, all of this was what made the plan instantly untenable, right? Yeah, it was dead on arrival at that point. I know some of the reporting was like, yeah, they're still trying to get, get votes or get people to agree to this because in the deck, in the plan, it required 50.1% of the membership. And Johnny and Fantino's calculations were, well, there are that many poor FAs who are reliant on, on my largest. Of course, they're going to say yes, but the whip has come out at these various places. And it's doomed. But to be honest with Erod, I know people don't like to talk about it because it seems very sort of Eurocentric. But there is a reality that Europe is the engine of the football economy in many ways, both from a sporting point of view and in a commercial way, as well, along with the United States of America, of course, right? But you didn't even need the 55 European nations to collectively pull out. You take Germany, Spain, England and France. I was going to say it to leave, but they don't qualify for World Cup anyway. So maybe, maybe we're okay. Sorry, guys. But it's something someone's told me before. You know, when all of these shenanigans happen and there are always free for shenanigans, right? You know, as long as we've been around Roger, people say, why don't the big countries just say no. And there's something about this structure where no one is willing to be strong and that they've been exposed as weak often. And it required this kind of collective response. But I genuinely think if five European nations said, you know what, Ciao, do your private equity deal were set up a competition? Because the reality is, Roger, we love the World Cup. I've never said I love the FIFA World Cup. This is an organisation that runs this thing. The reason we love it is because these players in these countries are playing in their national colours in these tournaments, we all come together in one place. And we absolutely revel in it. We're not saying, oh God, well, it hasn't got FIFA on there. So it might not be as good. It doesn't matter. God, it is amazing though. But it's a segway. We don't have time for it right now because I want to stay on these beats. But part of the last World Cup that smarter people than me marketing, branding minds will pick up on. They'll re-analyze how FIFA inserted the word FIFA into this World Cup in the most creative way. Like before every game, the word FIFA to be a shot would be super imposed over the stadium when the teams came on. To the extent that many Americans here thought the tournament was called the FIFA. We're re-reacted to it. You know, a lot of Americans, are you going to FIFA? It was a remarkable, remarkable piece of upticking of that part of the FIFA World Cup. It did accentuate that first word, almost downgrading the World Cup part. Again, smarter minds than me will look at that. But it is a sense that FIFA almost became bigger than football itself. But not in this moment. There were resignations from FIFA you've hit upon. One of the first FIFA's senior advisor, Colis Cadeiro in America. You describe former Goldman Sachs guy once US soccer president. Mano had to resign for fairly advisedly maligning the entire women's team during the quality debate. He's a banker, the banking advisor to FIFA. He medically had no idea about Infantino's secret plan. He resigned. I could have say someone close to FIFA texted me. This he said, if you look at Colis Cadeiro's LinkedIn page, he has like three posts, two of which are resignations. For this raised questions about who was actually making the decisions at FIFA, even as in a circle, as you've already said, have no idea. His statement made it clear. He thought it was a terrible idea and then Kevin Lamore, FIFA's COO, then issued a statement that the staff were quote deceived by Infantino's lack of openness, planning the private best of scheme and quote deserve better than contempt and intimidation. It is the project of one person, Lamore said, this is fairly extraordinary. Lamore's a long time colleague of Infantino is at FIFA with them. He was at UEFA with them before that. He went on to say, not only must this project not go ahead, but the time has now come for football political leaders to ask themselves the right questions and make the right decisions. Anyway, Lamore did not resign. He stayed on almost daring Infantino to fire him. I assume the sponsors were calling him quietly, making their fears now. I mentioned what you think was going on behind the scene. Johnny and Infantino first tried to do the American political playbook. He blamed the media. Our planned consultation protest was disrupted by incorrect media reports. He said this, even as he offered backers of the plan, $40 million if they would support it, tried to push through the expansion of the World Cup to 64 teams at the same time. But give us a sense, Tarek, about what you know about what was happening behind the scenes. Was he phoning individual nations trying to peel them off? The European unanimous block trying to bolster support in Africa. Tell us how it all works in a 211 vote system where the vote of Kurosau, say, or the vote of St. Kitts and Nevis carries as much weight as that of Germany or France. I think those frantic calls are correct because this is an existential situation. This is a kind of wrestle to the death here, right, for Johnny and Infantino. That's for sure. Either he survives or he is toast. I can't see how he survives, to be honest. But something someone told me is he's not someone who gives up. He's not someone who resides. There's something in his character. He probably doesn't think he's done anything wrong. He's probably thinking, what have I done here? I'm just trying to help these guys. Part of his mind will be in that zone. We would have seen a flurry of phone calls, particularly key figures here. You mentioned those big confederations. You've got Victor Montailliani at Conquercaf, the president there of the North American Caribbean and Central American Confederation, where the US is. Hosted the World Cup, then you have Alexander Shefferen in Europe, and then you have Sheikh Salman, a Barraini Royal. I suppose his name is Names on the Board at the Asian Football Confederation, but that the moment is very much the domain of Saudi Arabia and Qatar, and these conversations will have been taking place, both within their own confederations and also among these three guys. It would have been an effort to get the whip in. It would have been an effort to get these 55 behind. I'll give you an anecdote here for the listeners, maybe, to show how Gianni and Fantino's calculation isn't that crazy, because there is a cravingness at the heart of a lot of international football. Gianni and Fantino was elected first time because he offered more money than anybody else. Let's not forget that. His manifesto had more money, so he's elected. Whenever I go to a fee for Congress, the biggest loud of a round of applause, the biggest noise, the sound for Congress is when there's the money's announced and something. Yes, everyone is up leaping up because he's giving them more money. Yeah, by year, this happens. Did they pump in a can-tour goal call? Does everyone go wrong? His calculus, I'm giving them more than I've ever given them before. These guys love this stuff, and we saw a bit of this. I'll give you the anecdote I was going to use. I think the UEFA statement about all of the countries being behind them was on Friday. It could have been Friday. Let's say it was Friday, but the day before the Czech Republic Football Association President, I think he went on Sky News to say, we have to be pragmatic, and this is really good money, so we'll probably back it. But by the next day, he's among obviously the 55 people. I don't know what's happened behind the scenes, what punishment beating has taken place. But he's coming to line. And then I noticed the conquered calf statement, again, saying not the same fire and brimstone language about boycotts and things like that. But again, about poor governance, and we're not going to back this. I noticed that the day after the Mexican FA had put a statement out saying, we're going to analyse this to see if it's in our interest. That was a fascinating little detail. I mean, that indicates that these big blocks ultimately can be peeled off, and that's the game within the game now, to try and shatter the unanimity. And I do want to try and work out now, pivot to what happens now. But Friday night, the Infantino climbed down. Johnny released a statement, quote, having listened carefully to all of you, become clear, the project has created divisions of a nature that, regardless of the level of support, are no longer in the interest of the objective set out in the first place. Our purpose has always been and will always be to unite and improve. As a result, the proposal will not proceed moving forward. My intent is to bring all interested parties back together in the coming days. And weeks and the spirit of shared interest in our game, and with the objective to continue growing football everywhere, particularly in those countries that mostly need our support, a lot of that language is fascinating to pass. I want to quickly get into the ramifications and project forward. But what did you feel then? To many of us who are not specialists in sports bureaucracy, that moment felt like story over. Bad guys planned the thwarted. Good guys won. But you know, Tarek, better than anyone. Hey, there are so few good guys in spures and administration and B, the real power battle was only just beginning. Tectonic plates were, were still groaning. I'm sure for you as loudly as ever. Can you describe what your life is like in that moment? How many active briefers are you dealing with? Give us a taste of of what you're hearing and experiencing in these moments? For Paul, you're nights the world. Roger. So, you know, in that moment, in Fantino statement, was ridiculous in the context of the firestorm around him. Like, oh, guys, it was just a plan. It's not that serious, is it? And I was getting messages from people across the industry, whether they've got a skin in the game, are you in national affairs or confederations or people around the industry? Because that's the other thing. The decisions made at FIFA impact an extraordinary amount of people, whether they're fans or by tickets, clubs, players, leagues. And this is the whole point, right? This is the issue, the fundamental issue, why in a way, this is great if the whole thing comes tumbling down. Because the number of people impacted by decisions made by relatively amateur football guys from all over the world is huge. A lot of these people who sit on these FIFA committees, they're from real backwaters. And they have a huge sway on this very, very important sports industry. And that can't be right in the modern world where this is the setup. So, all of these guys are fire out, saying, you know, in Fantina, has to go. And despite this effort, this statement, which was so flimsy, someone described it, the ostrich has got his head in the sand here. But can he not really see what it didn't amount to much, that if he thought he can brush this over with this and we just go back to normal, he's got another thing coming. Because he's completely lost a respect of a huge amount of the football family, as it were, the people who are going to, even the people are going to vote for him. He's kind of been undressed in a way where you think, oh, everything becomes possible again. This all powerful, this emperor, as Trump would call him, the king of soccer, he might not be as scary and as all powerful as we think. And I'm not sure he's that liked. And the reason I say this, as we saw it, just before the World Cup, they had a congress in Vancouver. So, it's a meeting of all of the FIFA National Associations. Jeremy Fintino made the speech and he said, you know guys, I'm going to count on all of you, I love you all and I'm going to stand again for this last term. And you'd think there'd be this huge whooping and a round of applause, our man is carrying on our brave heart. And it's like a shrug, yeah, all right. What's the next item of the agenda when's lunch and when can we go? It didn't seem that he's liked, it was like he's tolerated. It felt very much that way. And when you're not doing enough to be liked rather than feared, when things like this happen, where are you turning to for big support? God, you're getting very chast Palmer Terry on my ass here. Is it better to be feared or loved? But I think you're underestimating the power of lunch there to be candid. But I do want to get to the winners and the losers of this dark dark week. And the biggest loser right now, as it appears to the average human being, is Johnny and Fintino. And Manu appears to term into stay on, I believe to be lobbying individual member associations across the globe to ensure that he retains their support, Asia and North America. As seen as the crucial battlegrounds, you'd understand that more than I do Miguel Delaney this morning reported in Fintino. It said to be calling Donald Trump today to rally him for his support. Knowing Johnny and Fintino as you do, what's going on in his head right now in terms of fight or flight? Fight, absolutely. And he'll be at fight and anger. He'll be furious that he'll be he's going to be saying, these people have betrayed me. That'll be his thing. I think he genuinely would think partly he's doing it for the skies, doing it for the children, doing it for the kids, doing it for the kids, Raj. You know, what more can I give? I'll give you my life. He's going to he's going to be fighting on. And you've seen a little bit. You've seen some of these letters. You mentioned some of these federations. Morocco is going to get the next World Cup. They've come out in support of Johnny and Fintino. He's a very regular visitor for even visits to Rabat. In fact, when all this was happening, he was at the celebration for the King of Morocco's birthday, I think. In Robert, these are the circles he likes to move to be honest with you. And then Qatar, of course, I feel Katari. They backed him on Saturday, Sri Lanka, Lebanon, Q8 off of their public support. Again, Lebanon, Lebanon, another one where he managed to get, which is really, really like one of his impossible things, to get citizenship in Lebanon somehow because his wife is Lebanese. But if you're the husband of a Lebanese person, of Lebanese woman, it's almost impossible to get a Lebanese citizenship. So, Johnny and Fintino managed to secure one of them. Who knows how the all-powerful president of World Football managed to get that from the Lebanese, but he managed to get this thing. So, Lebanon has written a letter in favor of him. But it's still like Peace Meal. South America, of course, very quiet, very, very, very quiet, home of the demand for a 64 team World Cup and home of Alejandro Dominguez, the president of the region, who I've reported is under an ethics investigation for allegedly misappropriating money that had already been misappropriated in the original FIFA scandal. So, we're still waiting for a few bits and pieces to emerge here. So winners, I mean, UEFA, they flex their muscles finally, asserted their leverage before last week's crisis. All of UEFA's 55 members, apart from them, was it Germany, Romania, Norway, Denmark, Sweden. They'd already written letters to endorse Fintino's candidature. You know, you talked about him saying he was going to stand again. Everyone, including England, was going to support him for a fourth term. That, that photo was seen upon announcement. There's a fate to complete. Today, Wales removed their support by letter England, said to be imminently about to send a letter. This is also Game of Thrones. I'm imagining little ravens with tiny little letters that are being sent out of football associations. Is this a matter of just drip, drip, drip state where one after another, they just keep this in the news by, you know, humiliating on an, on an optic level? It's funny how these people suddenly become brave as well, you know. You're right. I think UEFA is a winner. Alexander Schefferin looks like he's done extremely well out of this situation. But again, it's been handed to him on a plate where all of these guys have to be careful, I think, is, look, we're talking about FIFA, not us. FIFA, FIFA, don't look at us. Because really, what this thing has exposed is the football governance and how it works. Each of these organizations structurally are mini-fifas. So let's always remember that. These guys have to be really careful. And that's why I think they aren't calling for, you know, full reform of the football system and all of this. Because, guess what? We're going to start looking at you as well. Yeah, God, I mean, this is, I remember, this is a long time ago, dear listeners. And so this is not about the today. This is about, you know, 10 years ago. I remember when Conker Caff was caught up in crisis after the crisis and my friend John Oliver was taking down, what was his name? Jeffrey. Jeffrey Webb. Yeah, God bless, Jeffrey Webb. Oh, my God, I'm just remembering those two going out of it. That was surreal, not my bingo card. One of the people that replaced him very briefly, they had a private briefing with journalists in New York City where it's like, look, it was just a few bad apples. We got rid of them. And then he was gone. We're in a think here. By the way, we do also need to know, and I'm saying this for the American audience. In Fantino's also facing another rebellion inside the 28 member FIFA council, Game of Thrones fans, again, think of this as your small council. It's FIFA's main decision-making forum, 28 reps from all of the six confederations. There was a plan there to ask for in Fantino to resign if he refused to sanction a quote, independent review. I'm bringing this up because it's of the following Balaghan affair. The Norwegian FAA filed an official complaint to the IOC saying FIFA breach rules on political neutrality by bowing to pressure from our president to suspend the suspension to flow Balaghan. FIFA have said, no, no, no, no. We took the decision independently with our ethics committee, but refuses to publish a written report on the hearing. So there's that going on. And at the same time, you've already hinted at this, this simultaneous jockeying from within the FIFA power brokerbook for who has the potential power to replace in Fantino. Is there an obvious replacement? You've already mentioned one that there's a lot of talk around current Conquercaf president, the Canadian victim on Tugliani, already a FIFA vice president. There was talk around Victor Monteliani, and in the short, if Gianni and Fantino must be removed, shake Salman of Bahrain as the IFC leader. The most, the most senior by number of years, member of FIFA, would get a temporary role. So be a, give it, give it Sam Aladai's for six months. And he might, he might have ambitions beyond that as well. FIFA Secretary General Matthias Grafstrom, young Swede, Paris Saint-Germain president, Nasser Alcalfi, also chair of the powerful lobby group European football clubs, favored by many in UEFA, but it's said to be reluctant to stand. So tell us what's going on there in this kind of like jockeying. There is, there is a bit of this that come up with a name in all of this, but again, you and I will do another show on Nasser Alcalfi and how he's completely unsuitable to be the FIFA president, right? Because this is the most conflicted man in international football. And the fact that he is in the ring or he's saying he's not, but people are putting him out there. And why I'm saying that, he's got, he's a member of the government of Qatar. He sits on the board of UEFA. He's the chairman of one of the biggest rights buyers in world football of football rights. Paris Saint-Germain president, like this guy, even in the current guys, should not be so conflicted. And the idea that we are now saying, and this is what the reporting out there is saying, that he's a contender to be the FIFA president. It kind of tells you what the problems of the game are more broadly, right? But yeah, under Janine Fantino, or even if he has the numbers, it's done, Roger. Is it really? How can these people get into a room again? You've seen the statements from UEFA saying they've lost complete confidence in this man. We've already said that these countries are threatening to boycott the World Cup. How in what world do you then put all these pieces back together? You need to have, you know what you need? You know in men in black, there's that button, and you press it and everyone forgets everything, the mind eraser or whatever it is. It will take something of that scale for people to get over this moment. This is big. Is it that simple? Because I think I think I would not be surprised if deep in Switzerland somewhere, FIFA have one of those, because you've said it, you've said it at the top, you said, this is football. It's a strange, strange world. Do we have you guys in what world? Honestly, the only world I can think about is football. Love, we saw set bladder forced out in 2015. He had to resign after the utter debacle where the Department of Justice charged in the indictments, you know, it was like an optical shaming that made it untenable. Johnny could also be pushed out to that FIFA council through the through an emergency meeting, potentially triggered by the Balagan thing. 19 of the 37 FIFA council members have to call for one, but he still has support. He does still have support here. He can hold out until March when he's up for a re-election for that fourth and final term as president. That election was going to be an oppose. That election was meant to be a fatal complete. You know more than I do. So explain to me, how does it happen that Johnny and Fantino is opposed? Well, you've just described this scenario. One is he's going to resign. At the moment, it doesn't seem like that, but he has, he has the agency here as well. So look, I've messed up that much. I have enough, I guess, humility. We haven't seen that yet. One of the character flaws people would point to is that there hasn't been enough humility in this presidency. Maybe this is the moment to stand up and claim it and he goes. Then there is a vote of no confidence in this council that then takes you to the Congress and emergency Congress meeting and he goes that way just by being voted out and a standing comes in. And the last one is God, he limps along to an election and it will be very violent that election in terms of rival factions. If he does have this support that he feels that he can win an election and there will be an opponent and that is going to be bloody. The speeches on the floor of a Congress like that are worth dynamic pricing for because it will be spectacular. We haven't had one of these for a very long time. The last one was I think in 2002. The son of the late Colonel Murma Gaddafi of Libya got up. He spoke up in favour of set bladder that day. There was Michael Zen Ruffinan, who was a general secretary, the Mateus Grafstrom of his era, if you want. He was in the other camp. It was a very, very kind of exciting moment. Obviously, bladder ones and Ruffinan and his gang were booted out. That could be a situation. But the credibility of Janine Fantino is completely shot to pieces. Now, how do you survive that? How do you then show up? How do you post again with I show speed in a football stadium and say, you know what, guys? Everything's fine. When you've lost I show speed. Is that what you're saying? He's the only thing holding it all together. We're still waiting for Mr. Speed's comment on another matter. So, yeah. So, two more before you go, Taric. Want the biggest picture question? I think you've been nudging us towards. Many in football applauded 2015 when set bladder was forced out of his president's, you roll, stepping down, days after winning a fifth turn. It's a massive US and Swiss corruption and bribery investigation. Then, Janine Fantino was seen as a breath of fresh air. The equivalent, we should say, of halitosis, has reigned since. And big picture, FIFA's got in my lifetime from the incredibly corrupt Brazilian. Jan have a lunge. Two set bladder. Now in Fantino. It's a simple question, but I mean it deeply. Football thrills us. The World Cup moves the ball. Football administration has got a track record of being incredibly dark filled with power, hunger, greed. Why is it that way? Why is football administration helping on proving that the power corrupts and football power corrupts absolutely? I think you kind of shown that this sport gives us the very, very best of us and this thing that keeps us coming back for more. And then the very worst of our instincts is humans. Basically, FIFA is the world, isn't it? To all these people coming together. And what it shows you when you are unchecked, when you realize that I can do whatever I like and no one's going to stop me, people go to some very dark places and we end up with some very dark results. But the rest of us, this need for this game, our love for the game, no matter how hard they try to make you not like it. And you know, you've talked to people, so I'm going to try not to watch the World Cup this year, you know, I don't like what they've done with the game. And you know, people have watched it. Like people do come back because and that's the power that the game has a hold over humanity. And these people know that then how badly they behave, you'll just keep coming back for more. And no one is doing anything about it. They're based in Switzerland, in this country that seems to sort of show a correct face. But you know, under the under the under the surface, there's a reason perhaps why they're in Switzerland. There's a no questions asked culture over there. Because really, you're letting this happen year after year, decade after decade. And you are kind of housing these people. And what is the threat? And Janine Fantino has made the threat. Okay, we'll go somewhere else. Well, you know, you might want to call their bluff sometimes and let them move to, I don't know, the BVI or wherever some offshore island and say, okay, that really will show the true colors of what this thing is maybe. So if it is just a replacement, are we in a for me twice situation? Because reform is clearly needed, but FIFA is not going to reform itself, is it? It's can't be reformed from inside. It can't be. If, if the FBI and the Department of Justice, those perp walks we talked about earlier, people being hidden behind those crisp linen sheets of the Boral Act Hotel and being bundled into police cars can't bring big scale reform. What can? Like that, that was a time where FIFA said, okay, that was the old guard, we could do it ourselves. And guess who was sat on the reform committee, the guy who was putting forward a new face of FIFA? It was Janine Fantino, who was sat in the reform committee himself. And he's now bussed through most of the reforms that he signed off on sat on this committee. It can't be reformed by itself. And you know what, the news agenda moves forward quickly enough. And there's going to be who's signing who, who's February to your Amano talking about? When's the Premier League's first day? People like to move on very quickly. Really, you do hope that this is such an opportunity that people will seize the moment. The whole Janine Fantino's waiting for his cover is evident, finally signing a right back is what you're saying. And last question, Terry, because I've really benefited from so much you've said, but what generally this go down? I don't want to say a marvel at journalists like you, like the ones at the financial times work so hard on this story all week. And above all, Martin Ziegler, who's done such an incredible relentless job at the time. There is an old saying football without fans is nothing. But Terry, football without journalism is what? Oh, well, you tell us, Roger, we do the work. You can tell us what it is. I'm not going to talk about the work we do. And I'm not going to blow smoke up everyone's bum here. And that is how you stick a landing by refusing to blow smoke up people's bum. Young listeners watching just never blow smoke up people's bum would you? I'll tell you, it has been remarkable to watch. I mean, I know a lot of it is about leaking and briefing. But without it, dot, dot, dot. I mean, we really are plummeting into that abyss. I want to thank you, Terry. I mean, this is not a joy. This is not a sense of wonder. There's no humor to be had here, but there's no one who's a better guy than you to walk us through it. Thank you, thank you, thank you, mate. Roger, real pleasure to be with you. And we have, come on, as dark as it gets. We do have a laugh, sometimes, come on. Only when you play smoke up people's bum bums, man. See you to better day's ahead. Big love. Thanks, Terry. Thanks, man.