The Old Trafford Deconstruction, VAR's Structural Decay, and Football's Analytical Shift

This is The Guardian. Hello and welcome to The Guardian Football Weekly, Manchester United, crisis, clacks and alert. They might not have been good for more than a decade, but still two defeats in a row is still news. Brighten the first side in 50 years that come back from two down to win, at Old Trafford. No car about cut for Michael Carrick, then no car about cut for Roberto Deserbiye, the loss of changes at Anfield by both teams where one side could finish, and the other couldn't Dominic Sibosly, take a bow, son. Max Downman's good, still young, but he'll be 25 by the end of the upcoming international break so he could get the call. After the car about to the continent, a Sunderland score a goal in Europe for the first time since the year of Barry's birth. And then the Premier League leads for Newcastle One was on Monday, but still worth talking about. Then we'll look ahead to the weekend. There's been lots of correspondence about referees as the VA are all over the Manchester Derby drops, like it's a hit single. All that plus your questions, and that's the day's Guardian football weekly. On the panel today, Barry Glenn Denning, welcome. Hi, Max. Hello, Sam Dallin. Hello, Max, Russian. And good morning to Dan Bardell. Hello, Max. Baz Sgrogan says, when will Kieran McKenna replace Michael Carrick? The name's Dave Dave Dave says, I'm Manchester United, the new Everton. Manchester United 2, Brighton 3, then, in the Carabout Cup. And that stat, Baz, is astonishing. The first side for 50 years to come from 2-0 down to win at Old Trafford, since Spurs did it. So I'll take the win. But since they've been so bad for so long, I just, it feels like they keep doing that. Yeah, I was a bit surprised by that stat as well. I read somewhere that Sir Alex Ferguson was the manager of St. Mirren when that last happened. But I suppose Brighton gave themselves every chance of coming from 2-0 down by going 2-0 down so early. So they'd lots of time to overcome that milestone, slash mid-stone. But Manchester United started very well. It was a great moment for Shay Lacey to score a really good goal from the edge of the area, on his full debut. And then Mason Mount, who was making a rare, rich appearance, scored a second. And he kind of thought that that must be game over, really. But I think Fabian Hurtzler is kind of everything, well, not everything, but he's just a better coach than Michael Carrick. And he's a better problem solver than Michael Carrick. And solving problems made games seems to be something Carrick isn't particularly good at all. And Brighton are a better team than Manchester United with better players and more squad depth, I would argue, because both teams could out second string-ish sides. And Brighton's press was really well organised. Manchester United just could not deal with it at all. There were times they were trying to play ball out from the back, and they were just to look like children against men. I think Brighton were well worth the win at the end. They were just better than Manchester United for 80 minutes of the game. Now, Michael Carrick says he doesn't feel the pressure is under, but he is under pressure. I don't think this mess is entirely of his own making, or it's definitely isn't, because Manchester United are shopping in the expensive supermarket anymore. They're in Al-Leader-supposed rivals are shopping in Waitrose, and they don't have the squad depth to compete. I don't think they can have any complaints at all about going out. I was actually looking, in terms of coaching, who in the Premier League is Carrick more elite than? And it's a short-ish list of maybe's, you know, Gary O'Neill, Marco Rosé, Desurbe, Lampard, Herbaload, that's, and none of them have any great shakes. I like Marco Rosé as a sort of, you know, a slightly sort of, you know, a boozy way of saying Marco Rosé, but, you know, I'll take it. I don't know, I mean, it's, it is so tricky, isn't it, with Carrick, Dan, because I guess he's quite early in his journey, and the question is, if you're early in your journey, is Manchester United too big for you, but then he did so well last year, they could not give him the job, and it is only, you know, like, they were unlucky against Man City, because that goal shouldn't have been a goal, and it is a second-string team here. I mean, it's an improvement getting knocked out by Brighton rather than Greensboro, so I guess he's got that that he can, he can hang his hats on. Yeah, a very good point. Matt, I think the problem is, Manchester United now are wounded by a decade of bad decisions, so now Carrick's got the job permanently. Everyone is now going to look back and look at what they did with Soul Shower, and say, oh my God, they're doing the same thing again, and it's not working, but Soul Shower did work to an extent. In fact, if you look at where Manchester United finished, and one of you says it's probably the highest they finished, since Ferguson left, on with you, Max, I think, after the job, Carrick did, he finished third and got them into the Champions League, like they absolutely had to give him the job, he wouldn't have been right to do anything else. But something does seem to switch when you go from being that interim stroke caretaker manager to being the permanent manager, and just when you think they might be becoming a little bit stable, you feel like they might have made some good footballing decisions. What unravels on the pitch shows you the complete opposite of that, and they lurch from one bad result to another, and now you worry for them at the weekend as well. You can't be doing what they did last night. Good teams, when they let in a really, really bad goal, and it goes back to 2-2, they settle, they regain a little bit of composure, they don't do what Manchester United didn't, and can say to another one straight away, where you look at the players on the pitch, they're supposed to position of where they should be, and where they actually are. And it's absolutely all over the shop. So he says he doesn't feel the pressure. I mean, I've never heard a manager come out and say, in an interview, yeah, I'm really, really feeling the pressure here. I'm worried for my job. He just doesn't happen, does it? But suddenly, in the matter of a couple of weeks, it does feel like Mark Ocaric isn't a pressure, but then everyone above him isn't a pressure, because they can't get yet another decision wrong, yet right now, it looks like they may have got another decision wrong. Maybe, I mean, he's right, isn't he? For that, second goal, Sam, is it heaven and euro? I don't know, they're not the first choice, but they're so far, like, Pascal Gross is just, I understand you can lose the ball when you're playing out. But I mean, Dallot sort of makes a mistake before that, doesn't he, which doesn't help from an experienced player? But yeah, you do look at those center halves, who were sort of physically bullied a little bit by Brighton, even the first goal, when the ball comes across from the Brighton left back, and is it heaven's looking around to say, as if where are you, Maserau, are you, but it just got the positioning wrong. But I think, you know, Dallot, the weekend, was it 250 games, you got his shirt, say he's played that much from Manchester United, and that's probably just a sign of where they are, like, he's an okay player. And I wonder, at what point do we have to let go? And I know it's fun for us in the media, and everyone likes to keep, like, saying how bad Manchester United are, but they haven't won a title in 13 years. Like, at some point, this is just Manchester United, just this is the way they are, but it puts a lot of pressure on the full and game on Sunday, doesn't it? Because now, not only do we have an international break, but it's a two-week international break, and everyone calls about the morale of going into with a defeat. If you go into it with free defeats in a row, it's just strange. I know it probably hindsight, who obviously is a wonderful thing, but all this, they have to give Carrick the job, and you're probably right. They probably did, but only because that's a sign of where they are, right? Because they're really, like, serious, ruthless elite Premier League club doesn't hold onto that sentiment like, okay, that guy got's there, and this is our chance to make a fresh start in the summer, but in reality, which elite managers are they attracting, because of what Barry said at the beginning, they're not shopping in that top tier, they're midfielders, they bought a Chelsea reserve midfield. Tealabans really like him, but they basically picked him up on the cheap, via a release clause. Believer hasn't played yet, so they're not attracting that top tier, and so they've gone for a company man. But I mean, to be honest, based on what Barry said, his analysis at the beginning, they did blooming well to be tune-up in the first place. I think we should give them credit. I totally understand why they did give them the job, but I don't think they had to give it to him, and at the time, an awful lot of people were expressing reservations about him getting the job on a full-time basis. Let's not forget that. And because he took up or an absolute shambles under Amarim, he only had to deal with one game a week. He did well, he did what was asked for him, over him. But what he's doing now, or being asked to do now, is a completely different geek. So I get why they give him the job. I'd know objections to them, give him the job, but they didn't have to do it. And it was stressed at the time. He was only coming in to see them through to the end of the season. Five wins out of six for Brian Old Trafford. The third goal, slightly annoying it took a little deflection on the cross because the move was absolutely beautiful for that goal. While we're on Manchester United, the VAR audio has dropped, as I said in the interesting, such an odd verb to use for VAR audio, isn't it? Yeah, like, honestly. Dan, yeah, your thoughts on the VAR audio coming in. Yeah, you talk about it dropping. Absolute banger. Everyone's been, everyone's been, been, been way before, ever, ever. And I was quite fortunate, quite fortunate that it came out so quickly. After the game, I thought I think the timing worked out pretty well. Sometimes you have to have to wait a few weeks, so we've got quite lucky with that. It's absolutely incredible. You just sat there waiting for someone to notice, Enzer Fernandez. At no point does anyone even consider the possibility that Enzer Fernandez might be interfering with the player might be off-side up. I know expert on the rules, but I knew straight away that he'd gone for the ball, so therefore he was off-side. It's not even anything that requires line drawing. You can absolutely see straight away that Enzer Fernandez. It is off-side, but they've completely missed it. And then all the rigmarole that comes with it afterwards, referees going on TV and trying to defend their own. It's just indefensible. And the worst thing is, is that two of the people in the VAR booth are actually assistant referees, aligns them and so it's so bad that they manage to bumble through and get that wrong. Although Sam, I almost find it quite impressive when I hear them talking. They're doing a lot of stuff, aren't they? Not the big thing they should have spotted, but maybe I'm just too kind that I should hammer them like everyone else. I mean, it's a terrible mistake I know it is. I'm with you in the, I mean, they notice he's there, I don't know because they're having a look to see if he's touched the ball, but just at no point does it twig that they needed to check whether he was offside or not. And he goes back to, and I can't remember what the phraseology is, but basically go, basically AAP or something, go back to the start, roll it through, check everyone's onside. But I like the way how web comes out in someone like Jose Mourinho, Alex Ferguson, was always like, a defender player is in public. I'll never say anything bad in public, whereas how web, basically the opposite is like, yeah, they've messed up, it's their fault. But it is, I know it's easy. Well, it is easy to sit at home and say they should have got it right. And they should have got it right. And J-Boffer, I was actually very good at it. I thought I'd never say you that I want to hear more from J-Boffer, but he was very good. He could come here and say it, look down to him. And then the presenter goes, well, how web, he was live when he was saying, yeah, but come here, come into this studio and talk to me. So I like that from Boffer, but I've also been in a pressure situation at work where it is easy to get tunnel vision and look at everything else. And then you finish and someone else points out something really obvious that you should have got. And they should have got it, of course they should, but humans make mistakes. I just wonder, at what point during the game in the next five, 10 minutes have they realized in that booth that they've missed that and messed it up? I mean, you just, that stomach dropping moment, it'd be hard to come back from that. It's nice we're getting that audio. It's not nice they're getting it wrong. I feel like Barry's the most intimidating of the four of us on here. Can we get Barry to like stare down the bar and try and get Howard Webon on this podcast? See, see, see, he'll come in and he just defines himself. Well, I don't think I'm intimidating at all, but Howard has explained himself on the referee show he does with Michael Ohn or that Varas show. They've acknowledged the error. I don't think anyone's actually apologized for it. And he doesn't seem like a particularly humble man way, but I wonder at what point to see going to be held accountable for his employees, egregious errors, because on this occasion, they just forgot that they had to check whether Fernandez was interfering with play. They were so busy rocking and rolling to see if he touched the ball that they just forgot to check. Oh, is he interfering with play? And Web has, he explained to Michael Ohn that there's a process and then there's a process in place to check on that process. So his solution now appears to be to add another a third layer of process to check the process that's just checking the process, just publish it. They messed up, these things happened, but in a game of that magnitude, and you said earlier, Max, that United were a lucky gun city, they deserve to lose. They were second best, but they didn't deserve to lose because of a mistake like that. Sure, sure. I don't say I have to be good processes, lads. Good processes. Anyway, I mean more VAR and as I'm well, I'm sure. Liverpool three spurs, one, we should start at the end, Dan, with that subberslide, sure. I mean, the angle from behind him is just chest, let it bounce, hit it, it's so good. He's such a good player. I mean, he was good when he first kinds of Liverpool, but the last kind of 12 months he has taken his game to a completely different level to the point where I think he'll probably end up being Liverpool club captain. At some point, he's just far and away, their best player right now, and was under Arnachlott as well, and he's better at achieving anywhere near the goals that they want to achieve this season. They're going to rely really heavily on him, I mean, half the time he's not even playing in his, in his right position, but the technique that that guy has, he's up there as one of the best players in the Premier League and at the moment, he does really surprise his mix. He scored some lovely goals. Both teams made lots of changes. Liverpool, my 10 spurs, made eight. But Barry, it was three elite finishes against the team that could have, I don't feel too down-hearted from the performance, but they need to find a barn door. They can hit, or they need to just look at what Liverpool did. Like, it's a skill in the game and Liverpool had it. It is just skill in the game, and we were all teetering its spurs after they lost this one, and Jamie O'Hare was losing his mind on talk sport in the face of extreme provocation from Jason Cundee, as you know. But I thought spurs were okay in this game, actually, and if it hadn't been for their banter, start of the season, and you didn't know about that, and you were watching it, you go, oh, they're not bad, they're just not taking their chances. Maramadash Vili was in goal for Liverpool. He made two brilliant saves, and Bergval, Kudas Maramouj had chances. They should have scored beyond that. Liverpool took the chances, as you say, and spurs didn't, but I didn't think, I've seen them play worse this season. Well, I mean, we all have, but a little prediction. I suspect by the sooner rather than later, Maramadash Vili will take over from Alison as Liverpool's first choice, keeper, I'd say, before Christmas. Interesting. Yeah, he did have a good game, didn't he? And another one from McAllister as well. It's another lovely finish. So maybe he's happier than he was a couple of weeks ago. It was just two hours and four. I mean, Max Downman's the story. And Sam, I have only today realised just how long this international break is, and everyone else, I'm totally traumatised by what they expect any of us to do on the second week of it. You know, can I do another podcast on, should Jed Spence be playing left-back or whatever it is? Maybe if Tuckle picked Downman, we'd have something to talk about for the next two weeks. My plans are, I'm going to go in a holiday, I'm taking the opportunity to go to the Dutch version of Centre Parks because there's no football on. But Max Downman, I mean, 15, 16-year-old young footballers are very much in the news at the moment. I think the way Arsenal were handling him is absolutely wonderful. I think we forget there's people and there's basically children and but he is a child playing like a fully grown adult. I mean, there's just, sometimes you see a footballer and just the little things they do, I don't know what it is, even to the relatively untrained eye, you just go, oh, everything they do makes you purr. And I know there's a bit of confirmation bias in there as well, once you're already thinking that. But the composure he's got to be playing in and around a team of that level and to be someone that Nicola Tetter already knows that if he turns to him, when he turns to him, he can rely on him, it's quite something. I mean, do we want to see him in England? Well, yeah, in some ways, yes, because for me personally, those games often lack excitement and seeing someone like Max Damman in their wood bring a little bit of extra interest. Is it too early? I don't know, it's not a call I would like to have to make, but you certainly think on talent, he wouldn't look out of place. Yeah, his feet down are so quick, aren't they? He's absolutely outrageous. I think the England talk for me would be premature because he's not playing for Arsenal every single week. They're doing a really good job, actually, of protecting him. They just seem to wheel him out in cookgames and the odd Premier League game. He looks like a superstar and then maybe you don't see him again for a couple of weeks. He might be a bit more of an advantage to this season because Arsenal obviously haven't invested loads in the top three positions. I know it's not necessarily his position, but Trussard and Martinelli went and were replaced with one player, say there may be an option for more game time for him elsewhere. If there's a move to the left and the guard's not available for whatever reason, so we'll probably see him more so this season, but I think you protect him, I think, as good as he is, you don't want to see him anywhere near the England squad right now. I think that would be irresponsible. I think it would be completely the wrong thing to do until he's more of a big part of player for Arsenal. I think you've got to keep him away from it. OK, I mean, I was being selfish, I guess. I just wanted some material. And I should think about Max Downman's future, yes, Barry. That shimmy and soft shoe, he did to put Cedric Kippre on his backside in the lead up to the first goal was beautiful. Head up, not looking at the ball, advancing and he's brilliant. And the obvious contrast is with JJ Gabriel at Manchester United, who's 15-year-old, who's asked to leave the club, apparently due to interest from about various European heavyweights, including Barcelona and Real Madrid. There's talk that he's been badly advised, doesn't have good people around him. But then you look at the binfire that is Manchester United, maybe he would be better off leaving, who knows? But, and then other prodigies coming through, like Chris Rigg at Sondland, I think back to the time when we all used to hear about this brilliant kid who was at West Ham, but we never really saw him, it was Joe Cole. So, who went on to have a very good career, but maybe fizzled out a bit towards the end, but he really need to nurture these young talents and, yeah, just look after them and Arsenal really seemed to be doing that with Daumann. Yeah, you're right. I mean, there was Reval Morrison, wasn't there? And I suppose that there's just so much goes into it. And like, Daumann might be brilliant at 16. Obviously, fitness matters, but you just don't, you just don't know if you think how good Delhi Ali was, like your career, and that sometimes won't be taken for granted, you know. But Rooney was another one. Sure. Yeah, and you know, Rooney obviously was brilliant and stayed brilliant, and they're just, it's just hard to be at that level consistently for, for so long. You know, Arsenal that had lots of youngsters, didn't they Marley Salmon playing at Centreback? I mean, the big question is whether he has a good leap, of course, but you know, I'm, thank you so much. Presumably not the first, but it was the first and it came to mind. And then, it finished the game with 15 majors on the pitch. So that's good doing everything right at the moment. Yeah, Efe, Ibrahim, Theo, Julian, players that a lot of people won't have heard of as well. Anyway, that'll do for part one, part two. We'll do the rest of the car out of Cup and the Sunderland in Europe as well. I went to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly. So Villa, my three won at Coventry. Dad, did you go last night? You didn't go last night. A failure to get tickets on on my behalf, which was, which was pretty poor for me, left it too late, really, but sat at home and watched it, played routine, victory, both teams, probably kind of had a mix of players who've been in the first team and given people minute two who needed minutes and Villa's reserves were better than, better than Coventry's reserves as you probably expect. Tammy Abraham had been hopeless since the start of the season. He managed to get two goals. That'll do him the world of good Villa so far of one, two games he says and one in the Champions League, one in the car about Cup. So I wish all of our games were Cup matches right now. He maybe just gives Villa something a bit of impetus going into the Tottenham game on Saturday lunchtime, which is a really, really big game for both teams. I think now with the way they've started. So it was a useful exercise for Villa. He brought him in by the 50 million power man from PSG. He's only 18. He played and looked lively and had a good cameo the other day as well. So it was pretty routine for Villa in the hat for the next round, but I'm not sure it's high on the list of earn I am his priorities right now. A lovely ball from Eddie Hemings to set Tammy Abraham's up for the first. I just want him to be like a middle-aged off spinner whenever I hear Hemings, but or a rugby league commentator, of course. I know that's Eddie Wearing. Yeah, he doesn't matter. Alejandro Garinaccio seems like the kind of game he should have played in. I don't know what's going on there. It's very much looking like Harvey Elliott. Mark too. Emory was asked about it afterwards, and the line he gave was that because of things that went on in preseason, he's a little bit behind everyone else. Yeah, he got it. So he'll have to sit there patiently and so it was the standard line. And you know, Manzambi comes on, doesn't he come back from injury? If you're not going to get 15 minutes when you're free one up in a car. He had a concussion pro to Colleen preseason, where he missed two weeks, and he couldn't play in the Super Cup. But yeah, he'd have had more of a preseason than the Manzambi who got injured at the World Cup. It looks very, very strange right now. I think maybe you wouldn't think as much of it if the Harvey Elliott stuff hadn't happened last season, but obviously it did. It's either he's not ready or his attitude in training isn't brilliant in which case with Emory, you won't get on the pitch or it's a combination of the two, but I'd just be speculating at the moment. You'd think Karabal Cup third round when you're making changes, that's the time to unleash him and look, it hasn't happened. He has to continue working, work, work, train, work. When he can have minutes to play, try and play well, he's progressing. We have players in front of him now, that's what Emory said. Lovely goal from Coventry Victor Torp, putting a free kick right in the Torp corner, wasn't it? Thanks everybody. Everton beat Wolves, 1-0. Sam, you're out this one. You've got a last minute ticket, as Barry said in the WhatsApp group, it sounds like some sort of self-flatulation or penance, but you made it all this. How far away from the hill Dickinson, are you, Sam? It's an hour, it's an easy end. I love it as a ground, it's not the easiest. Well, it's easy to get to within two miles of it, then it's a bit like the Tottenham Hotspur stadium were actually finding somewhere to park, is a bit of a nightmare, but I, any chance to go to Everton or Liverpool, I love, because the steward, the friendliness of the stewards at both of those ground is just on a different level. I always love visiting them. It wasn't the worst game for a game that looked like it was heading for penalties before Alcoraz comes off the bench, a little bit of magic, and to finish it off, Everton, they're a strange old team. I felt Wolves pretty much matched them for much of the game. It opened up a little bit later on, but more easy, he's just like the last generation of, or the last of his generation of managers, still, I'm sure there's more to it, but it feels like his generation of managers were like, keep it solid, and then give it to your best players and get them to do something. And it, Greenish was back and started last night, and it's very much, give the ball to Greenish, and it used to be in die. This year, Dibbling and the Everton fans around me seemed the consensus was that he had his best game in Everton's shirt, and he provides an assist for the goal. Tiano Barry continues to, wow, you just want him to do well. There's something very like about him, about him. I liked Beto, but it just doesn't seem to be that, good, and he should have scored at the end of the first half of January, and he makes a brilliant save. But Everton, Johnson comes on, and plays at front, Bren Johnson, came on through the middle, and they might arguably look better when they had him up front. With everything that's gone on with Everton so far, they're unbeaten at the start of the season. They've got home tie in the next round of the cup, and these are the kind of competitions that some, a team like Everton, where they are at the moment, could be looking to go on and go quite far. So it's one of those, well, job done in the hat, for the next round, so they can be pleased with their night's work. I like Charlie Alcarez, did that kind of look, who's talking now, celebration, you know, like the sort of two glove puppets, you know, and I was like, who's been talking about Charlie Alcarez? I don't know. You might be able to hear one of, I think Willie Rushton's screaming, maybe he's a big Charlie Alcarez fan. Anything else to take your interest? Well, there was a good game between West Ham and Fulham, wasn't there, which Fulham ultimately, one, three, two, again, it was sort of mix and match, both squads, it was a decent game. The draw has been made, I think, for the next round in our Sunland of Brentford, but I can't remember. Owen Fleetwood or his home to Arsenal? Fleetwood play at Highbury, so, you know, Arsenal back at Highbury, yeah, Liverpool Chelsea, Everton, Newcastle, and Mansie or Norwich, you play tonight, we'll play Brighton. Okay, then to the Europa League, Sunderland, one A-Zo outmarked, Neil, from Mick Horswell in 1973 to Enzo La Faye in 2026, first goal in European competition. Since October of 73, when Sunderland beat sporting Lisbon, two won at Roca Park before losing the away leg. The atmosphere, Bas, looked and sounded amazing in this game. Very loud. The Sunderland had the pre-match T-fall of a ship. We've more lands to conquer or something. It was a big occasion on weir side, as you say, first European football for 53 years. I was very confident I had to kick off, and then Sunderland were missing so many chances. I thought, oh, they're going to blow this, but they didn't. They won one new courtesy of an Enzo La Faye penalty, which he won the penalty. He took it himself, despite having missed one against Arsenal on Saturday night. He put it in the same corner. The Alkmar goalkeeper didn't get to it. He sent him the wrong way, but this game was an Enzo La Faye masterclass, and he's fast becoming one of my favourite players of all time. I have to say, he's just so good. But Sunderland survived and nearly scared after actually a loose pass from Enzo, almost allowed Alkmar to open the scoring, but he was pulling the strings from then on. He hit the poles, he scored the winner, and then Sunderland had to survive a bit of a late onslaught from EZ Alkmar with Robin Roves called upon to make a brilliant save, a fella called Petetta stabbed the ball over the bar, with the goal gaping, and then Nilsson Anguilo had a shot kept out by a brilliant save right at the death, but really good start to the Europa League campaign. And yeah, it was a good night on Wyrsite. Yeah, some good games. Well, Dean and my Zagreb at home, Milan away, Poznan away. You're going to Poznan, aren't you Barry? I am going to Poznan, I shall obey local tradition by standing with my back to the game and with rounds around the shoulders. While Noel Gallagher stands facing the right way at the front, all right, that'll do for part two. We'll do a Premier League preview in part three. Hello, and welcome to part three of the Guardian football weekly. Before we look ahead to the Premier League weekend, Sam, we do need to talk about Newcastle getting guted by Leeds on Monday night because we haven't done a pod since then. And I guess before we did Newcastle, lots of people were quite loudly positive about Leeds before the season. And I was a bit surprised, I hadn't really paid enough attention to what they'd done over the summer or what's shaped they were in. But they did, they blew you away. Well, fortunately for me, I didn't go, I was working. And there's probably not a great crossover between pensions professionals and football weekly listeners. But I was stuck reading about something called anti-francing, which is about as complex as it gets. And then by the time I finished reading about anti-francing, BBC Sport had told me Newcastle were free-no down at Ellen Road. And so I made an executive decision on my wife to watch the finale of Ludwig, rather than the second half, which I think proved to be a good decision. But I have watched back highlights and Leeds, and they just look like a team who knows their identity, knows exactly who they want to be. Dominic Calvert-Lewin, they managed to keep him fit. I think when they signed him the only, they had a complete faith in his ability. It was keeping him fit. He's been out on the pitch, traffic's going in gold. They've got enough quality in the side. They're big, they're physical, and they don't have what Sunsland and, for example, are about to face of having two games in a week to deal with. So I think they're going to be very good. Newcastle, they had a brilliant start, that performance at home to Liverpool, and then they went to Spurs and One, but this sort of vertical, high pressing, or whatever it's called, high-paced football. The last couple of games have been really missing, and they did well to get out of the den, middle wall, to progress in the cup. The manager, I think it's that wake-up call. People said the start of the season, yeah, yeah, got to be given time. There will be bumps in the road. This is a very young side. It's going to be, you know, finishing 12th again might be about, right? And then everyone got really excited after the first couple of games. They went, oh, actually, we couldn't kind of should get into Europe. Everyone's really exciting. But yeah, I think it's going to be a bit of a struggle. There are going to be performances like this, and every team can put in a performance like that. There were a couple of mitigating factors, you know, they've misburdened Joe Linton who were in a summer where they've lost a lot of experience. They've missed a couple of their big leadership figures. Gonzales goes off early. Ramsay wasn't able to come off the bench. Will Asula actually hasn't played since the first game of the season. So there's mitigation that sounds a little bit like its uses. I think the reaction at home to Hall on Saturday, which is a very difficult game, is going to be telling. But yeah, I feel like this won't be the first time Newcastle will get a bit of a walloping, just hopefully their few and far between from a Newcastle perspective. Yeah, and Hall's good start, Barry. It's sort of got me to the point of now expecting to do something, which is presumably the point where all the wheels fall off and Hall revert to what we all expected hold to be. But I mean, if you look at the form of those teams and the way they're playing, especially after that result for Newcastle, it's not feel like Hall might be the favourites for this game. This certainly would be on the evidence of Newcastle's first half in this game. They were a completely blown away. There was no aggression from them. They kept giving the ball away. They lost every individual battle. They're second to every ball. It was quite shocking really how much they couldn't cope with Leeds's speed and pressing and physicality. I think Jaisal got it wrong with his setup because Leeds crowd the midfield, and Newcastle just had a two-man midfield, sort of a four or two-four, and Leeds were just entering through that will. So it seems unlikely that Newcastle will play that badly again, but I'm certainly not going to write off Hall's chances. They have been really good so far. Really good. Nico Gonzalez will be missing from the whole game because he suffered a concussion during this game. He got a ball in the face after 15 minutes. He quite clearly was not right, and it was allowed to continue for another 15 minutes before he had to go off. And it's just and boils my pace to see that. Yeah, yeah, I can be agree. Leeds times a palace, so a good opportunity to win again. Chelsea got a Brentford, Chelsea Chairman, Todd Bollier, Director Mark Walter of SoulDestakes in the club. Two majority are in a Clear Lake capital. Swiss billionaire, Hans Sorg-Vice, has also sold his stake, which means Clear Lake have now acquired full control of the club. I wonder, Dan, and I don't expect you to know, but it seems like a big headline, but I don't know if this makes any difference. Does it make any difference? Like Todd Bollier would seem to be like the figurehead for laughing at a team spending a billion and selling hotels for themselves, but Clear Lake capital have been there the whole time, or can you envision this being a big change for the club? I mean, sometimes you hear a question about to be asked, and you think, I hope he doesn't say I'm on, I'm after that. Unfortunately, you said you said my name. It was just on rotation. No, no, no. I did it in a fist bump when I heard Dan's there. I don't know, no expert on this, and obviously it only happened before we were about to come on, but I think it's been in the works, obviously it's been in the works for a fair while. I don't think it will make a difference to anything. Obviously, I thought Clear Lake owned Chelsea anyway, so I can't say that it's going to make a huge amount of difference. I mean, I've made some semi-decent footballing decisions in the last six, seven, eight weeks, so you'd hope for their sake that that continues. They've changed how they're doing things slowly, but I can't see in my unexpert opinion that it's going to make a single bit of difference. I'm sorry that Keir McGuire wasn't here on this panel. As you said, Barry might be the most intimidating. That was a low bar, but the most intellectual. The bar was even lower. I mean, Sam's an expert, and I should have gone to Sam, really. Jail Pedro wants a new name for the fund three. He doesn't like CPR. Cole Palmer doesn't like JP Morgan. I think CPR is a good one, because it's good to highlight a raise awareness for CPR. When they all are retired and they're short of money, they can do an advert for the British Heart Foundation. I think it's a really good idea. That shouting is Ian Rushden, who I've locked out of the studio. Spurs Biller, then. I mean, who is more worried about this one, Dan, me or you? Every football fan will feel the same. I don't like to be going to a player's spare team. Hasn't won a game or scored a goal yet. That feels like you're asking for trouble. No football fan in their right mind would want to go and play that game. So I'm worried from, I mean, we've only scored one goal, and we haven't won a game, so it's not like the bar's particularly high here. Could be one of the worst games of football that you ever see, or it could go completely the other way, and be like, 4-4. Or something, I think, Villainsburg's had a 4-4 back in 2007. But are you surprised that you surprised at your start? Not really. I mean, I think I'd be more worried if it last year hadn't happened, but obviously it's a different group of players. Now, I think the main problem for Villa is being is that they've obviously lost the amount of players that they've lost, but they were also their best players. Their replacements, a lot of them haven't been able to play yet, because of injury or a roving light or whatever. So actually, Villa's kind of back-up players from last season have started this season. We were good in the first half last week, but really poor. In the second, got decent record at Spurs over the last few years, but at some point, Tottenham will put the ball in the back of the net and have a horrible feeling. It will probably be Saturday. I mean, they might not. I guess, Barry, from a ton of point of view, there's every minute ticks by in that game. Because at the end of the game, it looked quite promising and then, like, 25 minutes in and they're all like, oh, we haven't scored yet. So maybe this won't happen again. And I presume from, I don't know how neutral you are, but as a neutral, I mean, you'd want Villa to win this game, wouldn't you? Yeah, I think we're all finding Tottenham's trevise amusing. It's not a great ad for the Premier League. Is it when two of the bigger teams in the division are meeting and they've played a combined eight games between them and have no wins and no goals? Or one goal, is it? That's right, there's a disservice, Barry. Sorry, yeah. So that, yeah, it's not a great ad for the greatest league in the world, TM, is it? Well, that might be a good ad for it. Show's the strength. I mean, out from the other teams. There are mitigating factors for Villa. They're sold, you know, half the team, more than half the team that won the Europa League final and they're trying to bed in the replacements. That and many of the replacements on the face of it don't look as good as the players that are replacing. Who and I are, you may well improve them because he does that with players, but so there's definitely mitigating factors for Villa's bad start to the season. Spurs not so much given the money they've spent. You've already alluded, Max, to the fact that we have this interment with the international break coming up, but I think there's a few managers that would be under a bit of pressure if their teams don't get positive results this weekend. Desirabee, Frank Lampard, Pierre Sarajard Palace, Arbelow at Fulham and Carrick to Manchester night. Could all be in, you know, it will be under pressure if their teams get beaten this weekend. I think you're right. I mean, the international break is so long that they could sack someone and then that manager could get sacked as well because they just had a bad start, even though they haven't played any games. I don't know, Eurela goes to Bournemouth. He should get a nice reception. Sam, how'd you see that one? Well, I mean, Bournemouth, I've got that beat. I'll have a big game tonight. I haven't had a trip to Real Sociedad, which for them a few years ago would have just felt so far away. Is it a cliche now to say that no one wants to go to Bournemouth? It's just a really difficult game and there's the Eureola factor. They've started OK, Liverpool, haven't they? They're not great. They haven't lost the Premier League game. They're not great defensively. If he goes there and loses, is he under a bit of pressure? It's maybe not quite the extreme of the other guys, but it's not been the start they'd have hoped. I mean, Bournemouth are just such a good football team at the moment. I watched him up at Nikasal the other week and you're just like, I think there's still this, a bit like what I said earlier about how, in our heads, Manchester United, there's still this BMF huge club that should be good. Bournemouth psychologically still should just be Bournemouth and there's so much better than that. They're a really, really good football team. And Alexander Ezek got a couple of goals at Ipswich. They just need him to get going. I can't see a word where he doesn't get back to being the centre for what he was not that long ago. And when he starts firing, I think Liverpool will be a completely different team. But they need to happen sooner rather than later. We've talked a lot about Manchester United. They go to Fulham. That's the Super Sunday game. Arsenal go to Brighton. Sondland go to Manchester City. Yes, Ben. Fulham just shouldn't be a Super Sunday. The Super Sunday top. I'm sorry, but it's just not right. Is it like Spurs last days where that's turned into a point of viewing now because Manchester United in a little bit of a mini-crisis and it's more watches to kind of say they're downfall? Yeah, true. Forest Carve and Everton Ipswich. Bit of a B-Rime sterling speed guilty to dangerous driving. It was driving on the motorway while inhaling nitrous oxide before crashing. He's been bailed until the 25th of November. Still without a club, of course. It's sort of a shame, I guess, isn't it, Barry? You know, I don't know what level he wants to play or how well high up he can play. But you talked about the sort of careers fizzling out earlier. And I mean, careers, I guess, do, right? It's not really hard unless you leave when you're at your absolute best. But clearly, the end of his career hasn't been perfect. It's been far from perfect. I mean, he could be looking at jail time here. I think this caused beyond football. It emerged at his court hearing, you know, he'd been up all night. He was driving so fast and so radically that for several hours, several concerned citizens called three different police forces to alert them to this. He's very lucky. He didn't kill or seriously injure himself or someone else. So hopefully this will be a wake-up call for him. And I'd say him getting a football club at the moment is probably at least his worries. Bit of a gear change to the number of corresponds we've heard about amateur referees or refereeing after specifically Barney. On Monday, everyone talked about who would want to be a referee. Robert Peacock writes, Hi, Mexico. My ears twitch when Barry mentioned we should try to convert NASA engineers into referees. As someone who sits within the Venn diagram of football referee and rocket engineer, I can provide some insight. I spent eight years in Scotland working my way up the leagues reaching the lowland league as a referee and league one as assistant referee. I hung on my whistle four years ago and moved to New Zealand to work as a design engineer for rocket lab. I can confirm that designing and building rockets is much easier than trying to control a field of 22 angry glass regions plus coaching staff and fans. With rocket engineers trucked off the list, maybe the answer is with brain surgeons or nuclear physicists. All the best, keep up the good work. Robert, thank you, Robert. This one from Mark is quite a long, but he says, I also am listening about seven years felt compelled to write after Barney's comments about refereeing, following the Manchester Derby. I've been waiting for years to hear a pundit, any pundit on any platform make this argument. I couldn't agree more. There are two separate VR debates. The first is the big philosophical one. Do we actually want VR and everything that comes with it? Not sure there's an easy answer to that. Most people seem against, yeah, I'm against it. But once you've decided it's staying, the second question, what sort of people should actually be operating this increasingly complicated system? Barney was spot on. I have a degree in maths, so PhD and computational statistics, I work in data science. I particularly enjoyed his use of phrase data wonk. I spent years wondering what to tell people I actually do. Data scientists sounds vague. Mathematical modeler sounds unbearably geeky, statistician somehow sounds even worse. Professional data wonk is perfect. Have I had I discovered it while single? It would unquestionably have gone on the dating profile, probably reducing my matches by 90%. Referring has changed into a fundamentally different job. I don't think we have to dishonest or incompetent. I think many are being asked to perform a task for which the traditional, referring pathway simply hasn't prepared them. They sometimes remind me of people I've seen in data science roles who simply are not well suited to the job. As Barney suggested, why not recruit people specifically for those skills? Mathematicians, statisticians, data scientists, people are accustomed to making structured decisions for imperfect evidence and then train them in the laws and conventions of football. I'm not volunteering incidentally. I do think Barney is right. Eventually, referring has to become a much more specialised analytically sophisticated profession. The jobs evolved enormously. The people and structures around it need to evolve too. And then there was some incredible praise for me, which I'm too humble to read out. But it does have the words, extraordinarily good in it. So I have read it out. Anyway, thank you Mark for your message. And you're welcome to email footballweeklitheguardian.com if you disagree with the first bit or the second bit of his email. And that'll do for today. Thank you, everybody. Thank you, Barney. Thank you. Thanks, Dan. Thanks, Max. Cheers, Sam. You're welcome. Thanks, Max. Footballweekly is, but you'll notice no one agreed on your praise there. They all sound very solemn and just said goodbye. Footballweekly is produced by Maurice Simon. The executive producer is Ty Papula and we'll be back on Monday. This is The Guardian.