The Institutional Crisis of Modern Football: Officiating Overload, Tactical Rigidity, and Financial Volatility

This is the Guardian. Hello and welcome to the Guardian Pro Rev. Weekly, a controversial win in the Manchester Derby for City, Erling Harlan with the only goal. He looked offside, he was onside, Enzo wasn't, he really tried to head it and the VAR should have just allowed it. All we want is consistency, Brian, City were better even with 10 men, Phil Foden sent off for kicking Bruno Fernandez slightly harder and slightly higher than Bruno Fernandez kicked him. At City's fourth win in a row to keep up with Arsenal then who won at Sunderland, Bruno Gimmarishe with a glorious goal after a David Reyes brilliant penalty save following Ezra Constance's horrific battle on Dan Ballad. Also today Hull's brilliant start continues a creditable point. At score a lot can see the lot Chelsea. A brilliant win for Ipswich away at Palace, Brighton hit five at Coventry, Lewis Dunc should be worth at least two. A huge win for Forrest at Villa and an exciting draw between Bournemouth and Brentford spurs the gift that keeps on giving. Was it Eisenhower who was president the last time they scored a goal in the Premier League? While Amfield looked equally blunt as Fulham get their first point of the season. All that plus your questions and that's today's Guardian Football Weekly. On the panel today Barry Glendennick welcome. Hello Max. Hello Barney Ronnie. Hi Max, hi everyone. I haven't seen you since New York. Oh yeah. Oh yeah, thanks for coming. It's fine. Still still doing this podcast you guys. Yeah, but we'll still see to be doing it. Still trotting it out. John Bruin, hello. Hi yeah, I'm still here Barney. So, hi. Yeah. All still doing it and all with that enthusiasm. Let's start with the Manchester Derby then. Manchester United Neil Manchester City won Erling Harland on the hour and we'd like to begin obviously with a statement from pro ref. We can provide clarification regarding Erling Harland's awarded goal. The on field decision was offside. That was checked by VAR and Erling Harland was found to be in an on-side position in the same attack. It was established to Enzo Fernandez did not play the ball and therefore that makes any on offside events subjective. However, on this occasion the VAR did not recognise the likely impact of his position and should have recommended a non-field review. It has been made with Manchester United this evening to acknowledge that we deem is an error of judgement. A review of the incident will take place. I mean, Barney, is your dream to come on here and talk about VAR and I don't want to stand in the way of your dreams? No, so it was just the way you read the statement there. It did not realise. I did realise. It's just really comical because he attempted like a pile driving, diving powerheader and like sort of that loft house in 1953 and it was just a bad mistake. I mean an inexplicable bad mistake because you're watching it thinking, how's that happened? How are you doing another apology? I mean, I have a clear position on this. I just think that the referees have spooked. They're not up to it. It's really difficult that these people have just been superseded by how hard it is to be bombarded with all this information. If you think about what footballers are, it's almost impossible to imagine how good a Premier League footballer is at what they do and the process of sifting through these people is so brutal. They're so good at it. They process so much information. They literally run for 90 minutes. So many people must fall so that this one guy who plays a Bournemouth can exist. And when you're watching it, you just know these are very, very best at doing this. They're sort of super human in a way to you and I play football. And do you think that looking at the referees? Do you think how could anyone have this level? You don't. Like the game has changed around them. You need people who are able to cope with that level of information, like no offense to referees, but there's most of them don't have higher education. Like you want absolute super data wants doing this. People who have experience of like in the B.A.R. level. They're doing the job generally. They're just out of their depth and they can't process this stuff and they make mistakes. And so people think they're biased and it's cut we're talking about them now. It's a really, really, really difficult job and these blokes are doing their best. They're just not very good at it. And so we end up talking about really, really basing mistakes like this. And sorry, I've gone on a bit there, but it just is annoying and no one really seems to say that it's the game has changed for them and they just can't deal with it. Sure. But then, you know, how are we, Barry, how do we get data wants? You know, who could presumably go and sit in an office and try to like more without getting death threats every five minutes? Well, that's the question. Where do we find these people who will be good at it? Is it a case of training them, having academies? You know, and you watch an American TV show about like a president or something and there are people in some kind of situation room, those people in those American films who are hyper competent, right? Exactly what they're doing. Like in the point of an ultimatum, for example, in the situation route, trestone, trestone people. That's what we mean. Those people. Yes. Right. Back to you, Barry. We get them from the boring ultimatum, clearly. Are are, I don't know, NASA for when meteorologist heading towards the earth and they've sent a spaceship full of oil men up to drill into it, the guys who help them out from the ground. And I don't know, do you know, do you find data wants who really want to be referees at a young age and send them for the refereeing and variequivalent of an academy and keep the best ones weed out the dross? I don't think referees are corrupt. I think they are doing the best I agree with Barney and that, but they're not doing themselves any favors. And a lot of people do think they're corrupt, like genuinely to be believed they're corrupt. And this isn't helping. It's just going to make more people think they're corrupt and make things worse. But that was a really bad mistake on a weekend that had quite a few high profile mistakes. Because for what is to be done, I don't know. A lot of people say, well, we should bring in foreign referees, but foreign referees get things wrong as well as we've seen. I thought the standard of refereeing at the world cup was quite good, but there were some really, really high profile boobies there as well. So it's not my job to find a solution and I'm glad because one is needed. Can I have a counter argument just a sort of devil's advocate, which is these elite, incredible footballers that we watch. They all make mistakes. They're big mistakes at the weekend. There was the ball with keeper passing it to Kevin Sharder amongst other, quite big mistakes. And these referees are probably the best we've got. And so they are the best we've got. And the reason you don't have academies is there aren't a million people trying to do it. There are people with posters of referees. So we don't go, this is as good as it's going to be, hands up, but actually give them a bit of grace and say that people make mistakes. It's okay. The world keeps spinning. Yeah. Yeah. But it doesn't seem to be much forgiveness for the refereeing community out there. But I suppose there's a few factors here is that their job has been made more difficult by VR and taking the sense. The humanity out of decisions, but actually taking the humanity out of the decisions has led to even more human error, like the one of that of these two bloke, sat in a three bloke, sat in a VAR room coming up with that decision. The type of decision that someone's dad running the line on your local park would have probably got that one right on instinct. And yet they somewhere along that decision making process and maybe we'll get to hear the tapes somehow arrived at that conclusion, which was a completely wrong one. And Gary Neville was talking, wasn't he, about how they were going to get a call next week of apology. Well, it came within hours, actually, you know, Howard Webb. I saw Howard Webb at one of the games yesterday that and he's one of those people that has an iPod, but had a keyboard with his iPod. So which always strikes me as a slightly technophobic way of using an iPod. So if Howard's doing that, what they call pro ref now. Well, weren't they called the PG M O L? Then last season, they changed themselves to the PG M O. And now it's pro ref. You know, when companies go bad and they try and change their name to escape, you know, like group four or something like that, this appears to be the problem. And there is, there is probably no more pariah organization in the UK. I'm joking, of course, but then the pro ref at this point, they need another rebrand. No, or you're not saying a crypto billionaire wants to donate, it's donated 38 million pounds to, but you know what, that's maybe find that they're really, I say what, that could be a winning, winning vote. If you said, we're going to spend this 36 million improving. And I suppose the question is, should AI not blow us all up? Those tech workers left without a job. Maybe they could move into the refereeing sector or AI could do the refereeing. I don't know. I'm future solution for a good new name for. Yeah. Yeah. We nailed it. We nailed it. Yeah. But what is kind of lost then is again, it's early hard with the key moment in this game. And you know, city, even down to 10 with a better side. Yeah, that's correct. And it was one of those things that I was going to say it was like morally onsite because it was a good goal. And I kind of felt, but then when you look back at it, actually the goalie does kind of stop as the diving header happens. And I think that did affect the goal. But city did deserve to win this game. And Enzo Maresca, he is a good manager, but he's particularly good at these specific tactical jobs. He's a really smart guy. Like the way that Chelsea took on Paracensio Mann in the World Club World Cup Final, he loves this stuff. Like the 10 reorganising a team with 10 men to win a Derby game away from home. That's really in his wheelhouse. And having said that, I think he's also, there's something about the city setup that's really good. I really like the way he, he's one of these control managers. He's really into like positionism. And you've got to be here and you've got to do this job. But the way he looked after Col Parmer, a Chelsea, where Parmer was actually really good under him, he is also into his attacking elements and won't completely crush them. And in Turkey and Harlan, they have a really elite level, creative department, so to speak. So I, watching that, I thought I got there so much better than Mann United, the players are better than Mann, the managers on a different level to Michael Carrick, sorry, Michael Carrick, but he just is. And I thought they look really good. And they're obviously going to push, be the team that pushes Arsenal all the way. Can I just say on the red card, on the red card as well? I didn't quite understand that. I kind of thought they both should have been sent off. But what interested me was, he missed the chance for a, we don't really see it anymore, the double flourish. Yes, bank, bank. That's sort of from the 90s, isn't it? It's like a power growing referee at the World Cup would do a double or even a rare triple, but you're, yeah. But I don't know if you can still do it. I don't know if one red card has the power, because don't you have to take out another one and then write the name on that? Can you do a double flourish? Double Brandish. I think, I think Brandish is a brand in the back in the day. I think it is a Brandish, yeah. I mean, I know you mean it felt Barry like, and it felt like an injustice, but maybe the right, you know, sort of how hard do you have to kick someone to get a red? Like Bruno can't be, it's not innocent here, you know? Well, as soon as I saw what Ford had done, in real time, I thought he's in trouble. And the red card was Julie Brandish slash flourished. And I don't think he can have any complaints. And when you're lying on the ground as he was, and you kick out at someone, that seems to be worse than just what say what Bruno did, kicking someone from a standing position. Kicking a man when he's down. It's not as bad as kicking a man when you're down. Well, there's a whole philosophical debate to be had on that. I don't think we've time. But my read on the situation, those that Bruno probably deserved a yellow card, the ref didn't give him one, and then where I can't interfere if it's a yellow card offence. But I don't think Ford have any complaints, more escorting, complaining about it afterwards. He said it was fair enough, but that Bruno probably should have gone to. I think yellow card would have been all right for both of them, but the letter of the law Fordon has to go, I think. I mean, I guess you could letter of the law. Bruno gets a yellow for his little kick and then a yellow for simulation, because he, you know, afterwards. That would be what I could have sort of yellow, red, yellow. Yellow, red, yellow, red. Would be perfect. Double branded. Yeah, we sort of were quadruple in the end, I guess. I was going to say, retaliation appears always to be seen as the worst, worst of funds, doesn't it? In one of those situations, you're reacting to it. So obviously that the example brought up is David Beckham, Diego Simione, or do you remember when Dennis Wise pinched Nicky Butts at Stanford Bridge? It was about Nicky Butts. Nicky Butts just reacted as a guy from Manchester Wood if someone pinched their thigh, you know, and just stuck them not on him. You know, and that's considered worse. And Fordon himself would have known that as soon as he lost control, that was that, he should have been a yellow card for Bruno. It doesn't look great when you, you know, when you react like that. But, you know, in a sense, it's all in the game. We saw an awful lot of that type of thing in the world cup, didn't we? Yeah, if you're asking what I thought from the Manchester United point of view, it was a desperately disappointing performance. And the one of the reasons that Manchester United struggled is that they, microcarric, and Barney talks about his, well, his shortcomings as a manager, perhaps tactically, is he's not been able to shift the team from being good at cancer attacking to dominating opponent from midfield with passing, finding your way through an opponent through the key pass. If you'd look at the XG between Fordon sending off and later on in the game, it's, you know, negligible levels. They didn't really create anything. And in the last few minutes, when they're really chasing it, there was a litany of horrible crosses from Dorgu and Dallow. And it was, and Bruno himself had a poor game. You know, the guy that's expected to live on the team couldn't find those moments of inspiration because cities, defense and midfield had them locked down. And the substitution of Cherokee at half time for Dyee created that extra dimension to city, a bit more speed. The city were far better, the far better team. But as Barney says, they've got the far better players. They've had a far better transfer window. You know, I did hit the post twice, and Donna Ruehm and does make a great set. You think, and boom, like a really leapstrucker just passes that into the corner, don't they? But it's a brilliant save, I think. Yeah. Anyway, Arsenal also at four wins and four, they went to Nellett's Sunderland. A barrier might upset people, but should we start with an actual bit of football from this game? Because I think the the Gimeraj goal, and it's hard to get in the Arsenal midfield. So to come off the bench and get in there and then do that at Sunderland when you're a former Newcastle player is, you know, it was a such a great strike. Yeah, and he really enjoyed that one, didn't he score, and again, Sunderland at the stadium light, and then telling the fans how insignificant and smaller club is. It was a wonderful strike. Good work down by the by-line from Havards and Gabrielle and Declan Rice were both involved Rice to slip the ball into Bruno's path, and he just bent it into the top corner. It was, I would have said at the time, and this was Saturday evening, we're probably not going to get a better strike into the top corner of this weekend, because there's only three games left, but that would have been a mistake. But nevertheless, despite having his thunder stall and by Lewis Donk on Sunday, it was a very, very good strike, couldn't happen to a nicer fellow. Yeah, you know, like you sort of got the assist for Sackers Rock, because that pass is perfectly timed, isn't it? And then you have Barney, David Ryer, and, you know, that penalty save is, that is a good penalty, I think, like it's a brilliant save. Yeah, it is. Yeah, those two moments were really, talking about how good footballers are, though, the Gomerash goal, he's seen it before it's happened. You can see whether they did a bit of this on match of the day, he's saying, I'm in space to Declan Rice, just give it to me here, and he's seen where he wants to put it. He knows that's going to happen, he's not just picked up and whacked it, he's conceived and felt the goal in his foot before Rice has taken the final touch to even pass it to him. And he's only just come on the pitchers, they're brilliant at the same with the save. I agree, it was brilliant save, he's really had to spring to get there, the hands had to be good. And I guess you could say it's sort of, it's a bit unfair, we were saying it's a bit lucky, we mentioned the Donna Rimmer save as well, but the goal he is also, you know, he's an 11th of your team, and you signed him for that reason and play him and train him, get him in the right frame of mind, and that's just part of why there's such a good team and has such a good defence. The one thing I think about Arsenal is, this year they defended slightly differently in that you've noticed how good their defenders are, one on one, are defending. There's been a lot of deep defence and not so much team defence. There's been a lot of blocks and tackles and what a good game this guy had. And that's slightly different to last time. They are trying to shift to this team plays very slightly, so they've been, they've drawn praise for being more, I guess, creative on the ball is the easiest way of describing it, but just creating more from open play. And there is a slight payoff in that they don't look invincible in that way, we will just take the ball away from you, slow the game down, do all that stuff. And I wonder if at some point that will be tested or there'll be mistakes and they might concede goals. I wonder about that, maybe not, they still look pretty good at the back, but yeah, they're clearly going all the way to the line again. On the penalty itself, John, Dan Ballard, you know, it's obvious that he is the aggressor in this. And Arthetzer said he was very worried and very sad because this could never be a penalty ever. I mean, there's this new clump down on holdings. So perhaps Arsenal will always going to be the first side punished in some way for this. Arthetzer is clearly a very good piece about this, you know, his post-match recriminations of this decision are clearly a warning shot across the bow of the hated organisation, pro-ref to sort their act out. It was a poor decision. It was a poor decision, also backed by VAR. But I suppose the root of it is that last season, there was an awful lot of grappling in the back. So there's some sort of clump down. But unfortunately, those making the decisions are not very good at them. And so it's given Michael Arthetzer chance to argue his case and, you know, lay a marker and operate on that old principle of eventually things will even out and they will get away with one further up the way. And this is how the psychology of it operates. I mean, you don't believe he's truly worried and sad. Not necessarily sincere, yes. Yeah, I mean, in my saying, my Arthetzer, I think it was a perfect moment for him, because he's going to be right here, because they've made a bad decision. It's a perfect opening to make this point, because there's now huge pressure on people to be a bit wary of this issue. They would have obviously schematized this in advance. Arthetzer plans everything. He would have thought, what am I going to say when this happens? Because it will happen. We're all warned, this would happen. And it's a perfect moment to put the sad face on to say, I'm sad, I'm scared, I'm just so worried. Hold me, please. Hold me, TV interviewer, because something bad is happening here. And I also don't mind that at all. I think it's okay. It's a tactic that also been really good at. You play on the edge of the physical constraint. We have this kind of micro surveillance football world now that we live in a world of micro surveillance, and they've been really, really good at getting ahead of that. It's always always finding an advantage, and they've done that. It's not cheating, whatever. I actually think the word grappling, we need to reclaim the word grappling. It's always said in this really pejorative way, so it's a bad thing. I mean, grappling, it's not the end of the world. There is grappling. I don't mind grappling. It's all right to grapple. Otherwise, what are we? What is a man when you take away his ability to grapple? But that is part of the game. It used to be you couldn't grapple with Steve Foster, for example, or Terry Fennick, because they're too strong and powerful. But defenders are now, you die trying to grapple some of those people. But defenders are now selected for their skill on the ball, and you can grapple them. And grappling is a legitimate human aim. I think people should be encouraged to grapple it. Look at an ultimate aim. It's like, we're not reclaiming notions of old fashioned manhood. Old male virtues where you could grapple. Bring it back. Toxic grappling, you know. But as you thought it was going to be competitive, and that Sunlund's midfield would go towards it over the Arsenal, you know, probably would be a handful of stuff. And they were, actually, you know, they had a couple of chances. That Arsenal were better, but Sondland really gave a good account themselves, I thought. Yeah, Arsenal are better than Sunlund, and there's not two ways about it, but I thought Sunlund played really well. Like everyone else, I didn't think the penalty should have been awarded, but I was happy to take it. And maybe I should have taken it. But no, they were very competitive. Grange Jacker was good, Mookie Ely was good. Browby gave the Arsenal centrehouse plenty to think about him in Gabrielle, had quite the battle. And just, yeah, Arsenal's quality shone through in the end. One thing about the penalty, I wonder if maybe Dan Ballard had watched Brassie Dortmund play Villarreal during the week, because Urassi won an almost identical penalty. I think it was when Dortmund were two and up, and they went three and up on the back of an almost identical incident. A judo role. Did anyone else do judo? I mean, I didn't enjoy my judo career with short-lived, but I do a discipline called Mugen Du, which was kind of similar. Right, what did that entail? It was a bit like judo, it was a martial art. So, I got to a blue belt in judo. I mean, if we were to pair off, what level did you reach? You want to grapple? Good, I'm like this. Yeah, I'm here to grapple. I'm sort of doing good numbers, but I would hate it to be a mismatch, if you're a black belt then. I'm not a black belt. But if you're a yellow belt, then I could easily upon you, and it would be a very quick fight. Okay, but this will now obviously have to happen. People always say that judo is actually the best martial art that a judo, you know, but it's just not true, is it? You've seen some of these other martial arts, they're not kicking people in the head and punching them to death. The judo's coming. I will use your power against tune, make you fall over. Oh no, you've finished me in the head really hard. Yeah, well, judo is very much, there was always one kid who's trousers, the drawstring of someone's trousers weren't good enough, and they'd be grappling, and then his trousers were just slowly sidled down, and his wife fronts would be there, and that was not the man you wanted to be. Anyway, that'll do for part one, part two. We'll begin at Stanford Bridge. Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly, Chelsea 2, Hull 2. Barry, what brilliant start to the season for Hull? Like, you know, a deserved point of Chelsea could have been more. I mean, they may have lost it, they may have won it, but they were really good again. Yeah, they were. I scored another two goals, could have had more. Louis Coil missed a really, really good chance when it was 1-1. Emmy Martinez had to make a really good save from Cho right at the end after he got the end of it crossed. Hull are really good, they're really well organized, they're pretty solid defensively. Chelsea, they're from 6, is really good, but their defence is little short of a shambles. I mean, the first goal they conceded on Saturday was just a litany of errors caused by a long ball from the Hull Keepers, Salakis, Fafano and Gostobault misjudged the bounce of the ball, and that allowed Giles to send in a cross, and the bounce of that was completely misjudged by Jarelle Harto and Mohamed Ballumi just was lurking behind him and smashed the ball past. Martinez, it's too early to say, but on the face of it, Hull are going to make an awful lot of people, including me look very stupid this season, in much the same way, Sondland made a lot of people look very stupid last season, but I did see someone point out that I think it was in 2008, Hull were third in the table, in October, and only stayed up by the skin of their teeth on the last day of the season, so it is too early to be making predictions, but I've been hugely impressed by them, so far. The big thing in the build-up to this game, I think, I don't know if anyone saw the Sorbet Thomas rolled his car on the way to training on Friday, and he appeared to do it in a quite residential street. I am baffled as to how he managed that, I really want to know, but luckily he was on hurt and was able to start this game at the bench and come on and play, and play quite well. He did play well. Yes, I'm starting to feel smug that I had them at 19th, makes me look, you know. It's stringly, Amy Martinez, John, sort of, if Robert Sanchez had these sort of games, it would be a big headline type thing, you know. He did say well from a Bernie Bates built one before, he just doesn't quite look ready yet. The thing is, Martinez is that he does have these moments, does he, but he is a big moment goalkeeper, and I suppose he's probably had what he comes back from the World Cup, he's had a summer of flux, but I think as Robert Sanchez also showed, it's not easy to play behind this Chelsea defence. I mean, you are left exposed, and you're likely to make more mistakes, the more exposed you have. I did see some social media rage over Martinez. How do we end up with this clown when we had a previous clown in Sanchez, and it's like, well, this guy is a pretty world-renowned goalkeeper, but you know, maybe Martinez isn't a perfect fit for the way Chelsea wants to play, and I suppose that's the big question is that Javier Lanzo is having to find some semblance of sense from the squad that we know has been constructed chaotically, and it's going to take a while, and there's a lot of promise in defence, there's a lot of quality in midfield, they are lacking an Enzo for Nantes now, and Casado's not been playing too much, so yeah, it's going to take a while. I think a lot of people were talking about Chelsea being possible title contenders, are we going to rule that out now? And just Barry's mention of a whole back in 2008-19 just brings me happy Phil Brown vibes, and are we going to see their manager singing on the pitch at the end of the season? I hope so, as they stay up, that would be magnificent. Yeah, I thought Bulumi was, I mean like two goals, but actually the the coil mis you mentioned, Barry, his skill to set that up was so good from Bulumi, yeah, really was. So we had a palace Ipswich Barney, an absolute huge win for Ipswich, who have also started the season pretty well. Yeah, they have, and they look good in the right way, they've got some really good footballers there, and you kind of think actually that maybe this is fine. Ipswich always just feel like you know, complete yo-yo kind of club, it always feels like, wow, they'll be fine, they'll be fine going down, they're probably quite sensibly run, Zion Fleming is a really good signing. I'm always surprised more people don't, he's got that kind of Ivan Tony, Chris Wood, Will School goals kind of vibe about him, he was a mill for a bit and was really good. So yeah, I think I think that seems like a happy situation and they'll they'll probably be okay. Yeah, I think with Ipswich, where we saw on Saturday, Leaf Davis had a par to play and he scored one, set one up and well set two up, and I think that's the Leaf Davis, we were kind of promised two years ago when they came up, where he'd had some like record, 150 assists or something in the championship, but that Ipswich team was just so hopelessly out of their depth that he didn't get to show what he could do because he was largely on the back foot, instead of the front foot, but I was very impressed with him on Saturday, and Christopher Palace, for the second weekend in a row, their defence is shambles and if they don't tighten that up, they're going to be in trouble, maybe in the position, taking one of the positions we also, Hollywood occupies at the end of the season. Yeah, no complaints over the disaster red card that was a he knew straight away, didn't he? I mean, he didn't, I don't think he meant to do anything bad, but you know, it was a bad challenge, wasn't it? To Coventry, then Coventry, Nilf Brighton, five. John says Brighton already have eight different goal scorers from the first four games. How many will they have before Spurs have one? You know, we've had lots of questions about Spurs not scoring a goal, but we should start with the Brighton, it's called 13 in four games, and John, we have, as we all expected, a goal of the season competition between Ainsley-Mateland Niles and Lewis Dunn. Yeah, well, Ainsley-Mateland Niles reappeared from sometime in the mid-2010s to score that goal and Lewis Dunnk, not a guy known for his sharp shooting, but yeah, if that isn't goal of the season, well, we've had what a season we have had just the whole trajectory of the ball, the way that it dips, you know, the way it drops in in the end, it is a, you know, it needed a Barry Davis and a grainy footage to add it to 101 great goals of that sort of, it was absolutely fantastic. It has to be said, he was allowed a bit of space to take aim, but my Coventry, I think you're allowed to give Lewis Dunnk that space. Yes, well, that is very true. That's probably not the bit of Coventry defending, I would focus on if I was Frank Lampa. If you looked at just the result of that game in the paper and you saw Dunnk 66 whenever it was, you just presume, oh, it's a header from a corner, you know, and then you go and watch the highlights and you see that, it's like, wow. I like the, he got a sort of standing ovation, he got a standing o from the bench, didn't he? It wasn't like they all cheer, they all sort of stood and applauded. Supposedly he has it in his locker. If you haven't been hurt, it's said afterwards that, you know, on the training ground, we does that in training. Yeah, you know, if it falls to Lewis Dunnk, you know, Jason Steele or whoever, but the reserve goal is worried, you know, this is going to fly in. So, you know, maybe if you think shooting is back, is shooting back, is it the new set piece? It's the thing from the deep past that teams are ready for. So, I thought of that when they were applauding, it's like, we've talked about this, we realised that shooting might be good, you might score goals, and maybe these brilliant data-based tactical managers have shooting is in. I was going to say, you know, how they say that Premier League echoes Syria as gold and era. Well, there was that, there's that point where the gold, the goals in Syria were always so spectacular because the defenses were so good, so that the attackers would basically spend all week just smashing shots to try and be good at them. Maybe this is the new way, you know, Flubbin Hurtzer is our new wave of manager, and that's it, it's shooting practice. Now, I think that's all for the better, don't you? Dunnk is the the Van Basten of our generation. I look, commentary on either the second team in Premier League history to lose their first four games of the season without scoring. Palace, 2017-18 with the other one, Frank DeBurt was sacked after that. I suppose, Barry, look, Brian could have been two up, but then Coventry had a spell where Rodoni had two good chances, but Brogam made a brilliant save. Another good save from Onyeka. You know, then there's the red card, which is Darft, nasty elbow from a 1-E, but I don't know if, you know, Frank Lampard said, look, five nails, probably not quite a story of this game, but I don't know if you agree with Frank Lampard. We're still in the game when there were two nils down and had 11 men on the pitch. They had the better of the opening exchanges, as you point out, part for Brogam had to make several excellent saves. So they are creating chances, because they played very well against City, I thought, and should have scored, but didn't. Should have scored here, but didn't. Five nils, very demoralizing, and while I can understand Lampard wants to focus on the positives and the worse and positive, they're far too easy to play through, and their defence looked very porous and brittle. So that would be a huge source of concern, but their fans seem to be enjoying themselves. They were still a cheer and away enchanting in support of their team after the final whistle, even though they've been subjected to a hiding. So, and look, two of their defeats have come against Aristotle and City. So, you know, there are going to be a lot more teams they play, so that is true. Too much into that. Brian looked like they found another one in Malik, Yal Kueh. He looks like a really good player, doesn't he? A bit of one for us too. Massive went for forest, and Gibbs' white body is, like they did well, or they kept him in however they kept him last year, but like that little back heel to set up Jesus. He's so central to that. Yeah, he's just a really, really good footballer. It's really good that there should be that depth. I mean, there was a lot of upset around the World Cup that he probably should have been in England squad. I'm not sure what kind of difference he would have made, or maybe some, because he's very good with the ball very good directing play and being calm and very intelligent footballer. And that was something that was probably missing a little bit, but they look good. They've got a really good manager. They'll be absolutely fine. I'm more worried about Villa, really, who just look not ready. They look rushed out of bed. I mean, I don't know. They look a bit like sort of me this morning. It's like you suddenly doing something you weren't quite ready for. I mean, they're kind of a victim of, I think, bad macro management. There was a huge transfer flow in, which meant that that had to then be this is Villa, that then had to be balanced. Losing that many players and trying to throw half a you know, your best players, half to you've won a cup final. And they look really flustered and not quite ready. And sort of they've gone outside in their dressing gown and it's all getting away from them a bit, which I'm sure we've all done here as well. Probably it'll be fine and set up, but it's just a real shame that teams struggled to build on success like that. And I'm not sure it's totally the the managers felt it's more something that's gone on with the way they've been totally destabilized by players leaving. I felt a little bit sorry for Villa because when Forest scored their winner, they were reduced to 10 men because Ian Madison had to go off injured on the back of a fairly wide challenge from James McAtey, which possibly could have been a red card. So and Villa reduced all their subs. So they had to play the last eight and nine minutes with 10 men. And that's when Forest scored. So yeah, I'd be feeling a bit aggrieved about that if I was you know, Emory, but yeah, I was having a chat with my friends on my my lads weekend away, Barry. And I was I was posting the idea that, you know, if if you've made all your subs and someone is deliberately is injured by deliberate foul, should you be able to bring someone on and then we we realized there'd be a lot of gray areas there. But I the injustice I was real. I'm just picturing this situation because really at that point, everyone else was saying, no, Max, we're with a monkey on drugs in Thailand dangling out of the high window in a building. We don't want to talk about this. Stephanie and we're really making good headway on a 500-piece jigsaw puzzle of a library. And I think I'd had maybe one, two cans of doom bar by then. But anyway, it was Max. Max sent me a full show of his wild lads weekend at about two o'clock on Saturday. And it was afternoon, not a free bloke's doing a jack. Yes, afternoon, doing a jigsaw. And I zoomed in to look at I could see the box of the jigsaw. Even the subject of the jigsaw was boring. I think we found it in the I don't think to it's in our defense. I don't think anyone brought the puzzle. Oh, I said, who's got the puzzle lads? I think the puzzle we just found the puzzle in the big railway bridges of Hong Kong or something like that. It was a library. So there was a lot of small books and you had to find them on the book. I gave it a bit of a go, but I wasn't finding the puzzle in a cupboard does make it more exciting, more of a sort of discovery thing. That was your tiger in the bathroom. It was very much. You never guessed what we found. I mean, really, we play Cornhole, which is this game with bean bags that you throw and they go down. It's a really great game. I'd recommend it fun for all the family. We should mention Liam Delap, who scored the open. I'm really pleased, John, that hopefully this leads to him scoring us because I loved him it, which and it just didn't work out at Chelsea, but that that doesn't shouldn't define him as a footballer. No, and his celebration was one of the indications and I agree with you. I did really enjoy watching him at Ipswich and it was a rather sad site at Chelsea last season, but we've seen several players swallowed up by the Chelsea experiment. We've seen several, as it seems, turns out investors swallowed up by the Chelsea experiment. So yeah, good to see him. They need a centre for it. Don't name it. It was the fading out of Chris Ward, and he's with the right manager in Oliver Glaisner, who is very good at getting the best from players. So yeah, I'm on on Linda Lapside. I don't think he was worthy of all the criticism he got last season. It happens sometimes. And unfortunately, Chelsea, you don't get time. Borma, two-brem for two, John. Of course we're there. We kind of think of a game that is more John Bruins out this football, man. I think I've been to that fixture in London, and I think that's about the fourth or fifth time I've been to that game. So it felt like home. And it was very much a Bormath and Bremford game in the fact that Bormath played very well, played the lovely football. Brentford under Keith Andrews are they're now even more muscular and strong than they were. They're veering into Stoke West Brom territory at this point. This is fun. Which I enjoy, of course, and I wouldn't criticize them for that. But yeah, it's a scruffy-ish first half, some terrible misses. I mean, we may not get to it, but there was a Ryan miss. It was absolutely horrible, which reflected the one we just watched from the championship. And yeah, it's Bormath are playing well, but not winning. I think they should start winning soon. But they're all very excited about playing in the Europa League. So it continues to be a happy story down there. Lovely finish from Shard, after that Petrivic mistake. And actually, the Tavan Airgold was brilliantly set up, actually. Three Brazilians playing in that game, Ryan and Egor Sialgo, who went to the World Cup in Evan Ilson, was by far the best Brazilian. Y Carlo Antoroti was not there, scouting, I really don't know. Before we end part two, some sad news that I've just seen, actually, the former West Ham QPR and Czech Republic Goldkeeper Ludic McCloschko's died at the edge of 64. It made almost 400 appearances for West Ham from 1990 to 98. He returned as Goldkeeping coach. He withdrew from cancer treatment in December 2024, three years after his diagnosis. West Ham statement says it's with deep and profound sadness that West Ham announces the passing of legendary former Goldkeeper and coach Ludic McCloschko, Rest in Peace, Ludic, our beloved inspirational Goldkeeper and gentle giant of a man, yeah. May he rest in peace. Do you remember his performance against Manchester United, the day of Blackburn won the title? It's extraordinary. Oh, God. Oh, that was, I mean, I think that's probably my darkest day as a Manchester United fan that just that that whole day and I watched it. Yeah, Michael Hughes put them ahead, didn't he? And yeah, McCloschko was so glad Egor. It was just one of the great Goldkeeper performances. Nothing getting past him that day. Yeah, I mean, I love to come. He'd been a very good Goldkeeper for West Ham for a while by then, but I suppose that's his defining performance. I mean, if we're talking Premier League years, but I'm sure West Ham fans will have many further memories of, you know, and of course, you know, a Czech Goldkeeper coming over to England in the late 80s, early 90s. It was a very different thing, wasn't it? You know, one of the first foreign players to make a mark. Yeah, we send our love to his friends and family and we'll be back in a second. Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly. Mark says, remember a couple of years ago, when you wrote about someone, Luton, I think going a whole season without scoring. Yes, thank you, Mark. I think it was out getting a point, but you know, the point stands where and says, what month do you think Spurs will score? You know, Domino's pizza. We've delivered 489,297,478 pizzas since Spurs last scored a Premier League goal. John, you are in the WhatsApp group said, West Ham have been relegated and played seven championship games, but still scored a Premier League goal more recently than Tottenham Hotspur, the same applies to Burnley as well. I mean, they just, I mean, they were good by any, I thought for about 25 minutes. They were sort of up beaten, positive, and then they hadn't scored and then they all went, oh, maybe we'll never ever score, and it all got very, very turgid. Yeah, I mean, there is a positive. I think people are maybe looking at this wrong. I see the clean sheets. Sure, of course, yeah. I mean, I've done that. I actually have gone, well, you know, you build on that defend. 36, 0, 0 draws. You just stay up, probably on goal difference, and that's the season, that's the season done. Where can we, we did it, we killed football. I mean, it's not, it is not easy to keep a clean sheet, so he will be pleased about that. I think one of the problems is they have new attacking players who haven't really settled and also are just so spursied. I mean, they're just such spurs players like Savio and Marmousch, like they have found their place. It's those, I'd write in the paper, the sort of players, they will be fine, because players like this are good for four games of season, and suddenly score a hat trick against Coventry, then disappear, get a tattoo, come back four months later. That's what happens with spurs players, and so it's fine, and they'll have enough incentive to do that briefly and get enough points to stay up. But, yeah, keep, keep backing up the points, let's. I mean, the spurs just continue to fascinate me with just how it goes wrong, like this, and they found a new way to, I mean, that transfer window that ever that the spurs fans got excited about. I saw described as the worst transfer window in history, and so, you know, the fans are taking it well, they're taking it well. I mean, it is an interesting, I mean, Barney mentions Marmousch, and I was thinking maybe they should have bought a striker amongst that, and actually they did buy Marmousch, and Barney's right, he is a classic spurs player in the fact that he could be good, and there will be moments when he is really, really good, but those moments might not come around as often as they'd like, and I suppose it's deserving, it is left to supply the spurs values of entertainment and anger and rage by just being so. The amount of buses he's thrown his players under, you know, that the 149 that goes past the White Heart Lane is constantly has spurs players underneath it. Does that come a point where he accepts any responsibility for this? Possibly not, that's not how he operates, but I do. The myth of deserving is of a great coach, but are we beginning to wonder how great a coach he is, or is spurs just a riddle that we cannot beat? I didn't all have a glasner, sorry, say the other couple of weeks ago, the suggestion was he's a bit of a one trick pony, like a three or four trick pony, and we all know what his tricks are, and we all know how to avoid them, but it was interesting that he did, he did one of those performative Pep style tellings off after the game on the pitch with Matthias Tehl, and Tehl didn't seem to take it very well, so he may be cast out into the wilderness. Sorry, Everton, we're probably the better team in this game, and they certainly had the better chances. I'm not sure if these are obviously out the season at spurs. I mean, I suppose if you have so many players who could be good, eventually some of them will be good, as we say for a bit, but if they could all either, is it better that they all are good at the same time, or just each one of them says, I'll do four games, you know, I'll do my moustache will do October, and then Savio can do in November, what's the what's the right way round to for this to be as good as it can be? I don't know, it's, you know, it's I think I agree with you. The problem is once you've done your four games, that's it, you're done, you can't go over the limit there. No, you've got four, it's in the country, I will be good for four games. You don't want to do them too early, or at the same time, that's part of the job of managing spurs. I mean, I think you're right, definitely a new manager is going to solve all that, just get you. I think so. You want it, yeah, new manager. Someone like someone like someone with, you know, because if deserving of one trick pony, go back to And you had so many different ways of doing the same thing, setting this all up. Yeah, Liverpool Neil Fullham Neil, I mean, I, Barney was surprised. I did think Liverpool would win this football match, and they didn't. No, they didn't, and everyone's a bit angsty around Liverpool. Florian Verts didn't have a good game, which is a real shame. I'm kind of a Verts trufer. I just think that he's a brilliant footballer and is the best footballer at the club. But I'm starting to wonder if maybe I'm just being taken in by how nice he looks. He just looks so good. Yeah, he's got praise and balance. He's got all the things I like about football. Yeah, he may be performatively good, maybe I'm misunderstanding it, but I don't think so. I think you can make him work. But I do think there's been so much flux there. Like the slot season hasn't really helped Eureola in that nothing really got built in that season, but the, they were champions. And since clop left, they haven't really found a new way to go. It's hard to understand exactly what what that team is, and he is a really good manager, and they just need to give him time, I think. I think it will be fine if Eureola is given enough, has the confidence and enough kind of time to make it work. But I, you don't really get that in Liverpool, do you? People want stuff now. And they, they, they got so many sort of weak spots in the team and players who you just think that's not going to work, it's not going to happen, particularly in the fallback positions. But I still believe in verse, and I still think the combination of a very good manager and him is something to, to kind of build that team around. This is a really good point for Fulham. It was a terrible game. Even the highlights on Match of the Day were slim, you know, extremely slim pickings. I thought Fulham could have had a penalty in this game when Alison, who Wilson has voiced concerns about his ability to move around his penalty area. He had another rush of blood to the head and came out for a ball, and young Josh King sort of jumped over him to avoid, you know, clattering into him. And I think if he had clattered into him and gone down, that's, that's a penalty, he can't not be. So there was a little bit in naivety on understandable naivety on King's part there. But, yeah, it was a performance to forget for Liverpool and a much needed point for Fulham. Just briefly gone back to the spurs thing. Do you think or do my my learned friends think given the stunning lack of imagination at both spurs and the boardrooms of spurs and United, do you think the availability of Eddie Howe could hasten the departure of either Michael Carrick or a deserving? I suppose it depends on how much of a rest Eddie Howe both wants and requires. I get them put when you looked at him towards the end of the time at Newcastle, he looked pretty tired, didn't he? It looked like he'd had enough of it. I would have thought Eddie Howe was probably hanging on to replace Thomas Tuckle, would have thought that would be his, his main aim. And so if he can stay out of the game until that reaches its conclusion, that would be his aim. And I would be delighted to see Jason Tyndall on the bench be the top no more, or Old Trafford, or England leave. Or England. For England, it would be amazing. So I think we've missed Jason. And I think we need Jason. The most ultimate Jason, I think was ever been. Could anyone look more Jason than Jason? I think I've said this before. Donovan Orange? Jason Orange is the ultimate. Jason Tyndall, he's a really interesting figure. I went when I remember Eddie Howe was banned for a bit. I went to a game at Villa where he was the manager. And I thought, I was going to be a really good press conference this. It would be incredibly feisty. We leaping up and slapping people in the chest. But he was the most lovely, softly spoken, actually quite shy, gentle. I really need to bring you out for yourself. You seem like just a natural introvert. So I was really thrown by the end intrigued by him. Maybe that's a tactic he uses. Well, we're about to have a 15-week international break. So tell us who can get so bored by the rest of us that Eddie Howe could just wander in and take over. I will finish with this from Jeremy, a full of a fan in Dullich, Morning Max Barron panel, following Johnny Lewis statement on last week's pod that no kid grows up wanting to become a referee. I felt the need to get in touch. This past world cup in the US was the first one that my son Ace was fully cognizant of and interested in. And we watched a fair few games together, despite the brilliance of belling him, the spirit of Cape Verde or the main character energy of Messi. He latched onto the referees and the exclamation of VAR decisions to the crowd more than anything. He has since stated that he no longer wants to be a goalkeeper for Chelsea or a farmer that exclusively makes cheese, but a referee. This has led into receiving red and yellow cards and notebook and a referee's headset and microphone, an old headset for COVID here as Zoom calls with FIFA logos pricked on the ears for a recent birthday. He now spends most of his day dishing out cards from minor infractions, such as been giving a broken biscuit or being told to put his socks on. He has an issue with corruption, however, and this instance can be reversed with pledges of TV time or ice cream. Maybe in Fantino is actually his greatest influence after all. Keep up with great work. Jeremy, well look, maybe Ace is the man we need if we can fast-track him and get, we'll get Ace in in the next two years and have a six-year-old brandishing card left right and centre. But thank you, Jeremy, footballweekittheguardian.com if you want to get in touch and that'll do for today. Thank you everybody, thank you Barry. Thank you. Cheers, Barney. Cheers, everyone. Thank you, John. And it's one of them in me. Footballweekit is produced by Rotary Simon. Our executive is Taya Papula and we'll be back tomorrow with Europod. This is the Guardian.